Ireland v England - Post-match warmdown

First topic message reminder :

        
Ireland 19 - 9 England

A continuation of the match thread.

Be respectful please. Your mothers would be proud.

Baring injury the wingers to go are almost certaintly going to be Trimble, Bowe, Zebo

Earls is probably fighting for a utility spot with Fitzgerald, Olding and maybe McFadden.
According to the breakdown between forwards and backs he may even have to get in front of Jones as well

On paper winning the grand slam this year will be a similar if not marginally easier task to getting to the WC final for Ireland.

To get to final we need to win:

Group: Canada, Romania, Italy, France,
Likely 1/4: Argentina
Semi: Wales/England or Aus.

We have already consecutively beaten all of those teams except Canada and Romania who we have not played.

We have won v France, Italy and Argentina home and away, Wales home and away and Aus and England at home. We havent played Australia away in a few years but beat them at the last WC and we are the only team in the six nations to have a positive record v England including a significant amount of wins in Twickenham.

In theory we will have to play less tough games than winning a grand slam but perhaps crucially all games will be at neutral venues execpt if we face England.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm saying you can't win because you never have when it really matters in a world cup, beating teams in the autumn internationals will soon be forgotten when push comes to shove. Just like the Welsh, the Irish can't do it on the biggest stage, all the teams I said will beat you, have.

How did England manage it in 2003 then? Because at that point they'd never did it when it matters?

For my mind  - if we win the 6N again, we will be in a stronger position than England were heading into '03. Back to back champions having beaten everyone in succession bar NZ, who we to lost by a hairs breadth. That is a black mark, but that is a good thing - a final target to aim for, for this side.

I'm not saying we'll do it but every ingredient is there in my mind. Remember Joe's Leinster were an anomaly in Irish sport - a team comfortable with being favourites as well as underdogs, driven by process improvements rather than fixated by results or trophies - that is why they kept winning and why Ireland now are winning, and why I believe we will keep winning until a better team beats us, because I don't believe this side will beat themselves under Joe.

Black marks that went against Irish sides in the past - choking, inconsistency, mental frailties and lack of depth have been almost eradicated. I believe we'll be even better come September with players like Ruddock, Henry, Trimble, Heaslip to come back and Healy and O'Brien are still way off top fitness.

The only team I believe are capable of that on NH soil right now is NZ but I'm there to be proved wrong in 2 weeks time. If we beat Wales and Scotland then rightly we should be considered amongst the favourites for the RWC.

Tell you what GG it doesnt half look like you chaps got a jammy group with the state France are in.
Argentina /Tonga are likely to be the lowest ranked quarter finalists ..and you get to dodge the big two in the semis ?

The door is open for the final.

rodders wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm saying you can't win because you never have when it really matters in a world cup, beating teams in the autumn internationals will soon be forgotten when push comes to shove. Just like the Welsh, the Irish can't do it on the biggest stage, all the teams I said will beat you, have.

How did England manage it in 2003 then? Because at that point they'd never did it when it matters?

For my mind  - if we win the 6N again, we will be in a stronger position than England were heading into '03. Back to back champions having beaten everyone in succession bar NZ, who we to lost by a hairs breadth. That is a black mark, but that is a good thing - a final target to aim for, for this side.

I'm not saying we'll do it but every ingredient is there in my mind. Remember Joe's Leinster were an anomaly in Irish sport - a team comfortable with being favourites as well as underdogs, driven by process improvements rather than fixated by results or trophies - that is why they kept winning and why Ireland now are winning, and why I believe we will keep winning until a better team beats us, because I don't believe this side will beat themselves under Joe.

Black marks that went against Irish sides in the past - choking, inconsistency, mental frailties and lack of depth have been almost eradicated. I believe we'll be even better come September with players like Ruddock, Henry, Trimble, Heaslip to come back and Healy and O'Brien are still way off top fitness.

The only team I believe are capable of that on NH soil right now is NZ but I'm there to be proved wrong in 2 weeks time. If we beat Wales and Scotland then rightly we should be considered amongst the favourites for the RWC.

Its a fair comment. Certainly 3rd seed, as per IRB rankings.

The problem is the actual favourite is way ahead. The plus for you chaps is that they may well face the Boks in the semis who are the team most likely to be able to upset them.

Lets not lose sight when we talk about any teams chances at the world cup it really boils down to at what stage you lose to New Zealand.

Gooseberry wrote:Tell you what GG it doesnt half look like you chaps got a jammy group with the state France are in.
Argentina /Tonga are likely to be the lowest ranked quarter finalists ..and you get to dodge the big two in the semis ?

The door is open for the final.

Yes we have a sweet route to the final. Not sure who I would prefer in the semis England or Australia. Probably Oz as England are at home. Either way Ireland is ranked above both of them so should be aiming for a win, if we get that far. Big if right now.

Gooseberry wrote:

Its a fair comment. Certainly 3rd seed, as per IRB rankings.

The problem is the actual favourite is way ahead. The plus for you chaps is that they may well face the Boks in the semis who are the team most likely to be able to upset them.

Lets not lose sight when we talk about any teams chances at the world cup it really boils down to at what stage you lose to New Zealand.

They may also face France in the quarters. Both France and SA are the two teams most likely to defeat NZ.

Exactly but if we all concede that NZ are unbeatable then there is no point turning up. If we win our group, which on form we should, we can't play them until the final, which is probably the best chance to beat them (i.e. but an immensely slim one) - the biggest roadblock to get there is England, but I've seen enough in our last two meetings to believe we can win that one with a fair crack from the officials at Twickenham.

rodders wrote:Exactly but if we all concede that NZ are unbeatable then there is no point turning up. If we win our group, which on form we should, we can't play them until the final, which is probably the best chance to beat them (i.e. but an immensely slim one) - the biggest roadblock to get there is England, but I've seen enough in our last two meetings to believe we can win that one with a fair crack from the officials at Twickenham.

I agree Rodders. What better time to beat NZ for the first time in the final anyway. They will also be nervous too as they have never won the WC away from NZ. All speculation anyway as we have to beat France in our group first which is a big ask.

rodders wrote:Exactly but if we all concede that NZ are unbeatable then there is no point turning up. If we win our group, which on form we should, we can't play them until the final, which is probably the best chance to beat them (i.e. but an immensely slim one) - the biggest roadblock to get there is England, but I've seen enough in our last two meetings to believe we can win that one with a fair crack from the officials at Twickenham.

Exactly and that is what I consider to be Schmidt's biggest influence to this Irish team, he has given them a belief that they can beat any team in the world and they are not frightened. Back in the day, I felt that Irelands approach to games against NZ, AUS and SA were far too often that of Damage limitation.
Consistency and belief is the key and that is what Schmidt is bringing.

Gooseberry wrote: The problem is the actual favourite is way ahead. The plus for you chaps is that they may well face the Boks in the semis who are the team most likely to be able to upset them.

Lets not lose sight when we talk about any teams chances at the world cup it really boils down to at what stage you lose to New Zealand.

Why do you think we will play SA - they are almost certain to win their group and if they do they will be in the other half of the draw to Ireland (provided we beat France)

Ireland either lose to France and play NZ in the QF or win the group and have a winnable SF against England, Wales or Australia.
The way the draw is NZ v SA is very likely to be a SF.

The only way Ireland will play SA in the SF is beating NZ in the QF

Anyways who's talking about the RWC.... we've a GS, an Ulster pro 12 win, 4 provinces in the league top 6 and a Leinster RCC victory to get out of the way first - lets not lose the run of ourselves.

Right I'm on the way to take out a 500% mortgage and buy some property...roll on the good times baby....

Ireland have the best defence in the 6nations by a factor of 2. Conceded 23 points, next best is France with 46.

Also, to those bemoaning our “dull play” we crossed the whitewash twice inside the first 5 mins, England had to concede a penalty to keep us out. We were also a gnat’s nadger away from an intercept in the second half and had Henshaw caught Goode behind the try line I would fancy us to have scored off of it.

GunsGerms wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was also some beautiful sleight of hand in among the crash-balls that created space, the quality that is so absent in the modern game, for the other backs. I'd say that Sexton's understanding with O'Driscoll was another factor that gave Jonny the confidence to vary the play more from 10 than he has this year.

Ireland didnt offload at all last year either. Some very short term memory at play on here.

Well, they may not have offloaded as often as the others, but the total was still 27 by season's end - at the current rate that will be about double this season's output. As I said, if you've got a sublime passer in midfield, who can put a man into space in his sleep, then you'll look to exploit that. No O'Driscoll has meant a slightly different, equally effective mind-set.

Nachos Jones wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are noticably less attacking and scoring less tries without Trimble and Kearney. Coincidence?

Not really as the ball is not getting out to the wings due to the much mentioned 'Schmidt plan'. Personally, I don't think that Zebo or Bowe have played badly at all and I still think they are Irelands best wingers but it is hard for any winger to be attacking or score tries when starved of the ball in open play.

Compared to last year you had two centres with a good understanding with Sexton and some pre-planned moves (try against England and France for example) that were straight from the Leinster play book. This year you have two new centres who while playing well have hardly passed the ball to each other not to mind to anyone else in all their games and are still in the process of building up an understanding with Sexton. The Sexton wraparound was only used last Saturday for the first time by this group. In addition teams will be more aware of these moves and better prepared.

The understanding should work itself out over time and the back play will improve. The best passing outside of Sexton has been when Zebo was first or second receiver during the Italian game when he took over for a period (something which is probably in the plan as he does that when Keatley tends to go absent) and got the ball out to the wings. Bowe and Zebo will get their chances eventually as the understanding in the backs works itself out...

Mickado wrote:Ireland have the best defence in the 6nations by a factor of 2. Conceded 23 points, next best is France with 46.

Also, to those bemoaning our “dull play” we crossed the whitewash twice inside the first 5 mins, England had to concede a penalty to keep us out. We were also a gnat’s nadger away from an intercept in the second half and had Henshaw caught Goode behind the try line I would fancy us to have scored off of it.

I, personally, am not bemoaning the dull play, I just feel that it is a risky tactic. I am of the belief that playing this way will become a habit and Ireland will lose that clinical ability to finish off moves as it will become second nature to them to not offload and to take the contact. I am concerned that Ireland may not have ability to win from behind by introducing an attacking plan, I am sure that Schmidt is practicing this in training but there is no better place to do it than in match situations.

I understand the arguments from some explaining that Schmidt does not want to give too much away before the RWC but I feel that Ireland, although winning, have the ability to put teams away and they are just not doing that.

Maybe I am simply too impatient but I see an ability in Ireland that is not being shown... yet.

ME-109 wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are noticably less attacking and scoring less tries without Trimble and Kearney. Coincidence?

Not really as the ball is not getting out to the wings due to the much mentioned 'Schmidt plan'. Personally, I don't think that Zebo or Bowe have played badly at all and I still think they are Irelands best wingers but it is hard for any winger to be attacking or score tries when starved of the ball in open play.

Compared to last year you had two centres with a good understanding with Sexton and some pre-planned moves (try against England and France for example) that were straight from the Leinster play book. This year you have two new centres who while playing well have hardly passed the ball to each other not to mind to anyone else in all their games and are still in the process of building up an understanding with Sexton. The Sexton wraparound was only used last Saturday for the first time by this group. In addition teams will be more aware of these moves and better prepared.

The understanding should work itself out over time and the back play will improve. The best passing outside of Sexton has been when Zebo was first or second receiver during the Italian game when he took over for a period (something which is probably in the plan as he does that when Keatley tends to go absent) and got the ball out to the wings. Bowe and Zebo will get their chances eventually as the understanding in the backs works itself out...

I don't necessarily believe that its an understanding thing ME, Schmidt (by all accounts and what I have seen) is extremely strong in drilling teams. Both Payne and Henshaw are good offloaders. To me, its a tactic from Schmidt not to offload and play safety first.

I think we have to give the midfield time.
Both guys are new to each other and International rugby.
The set up will get more creative as the summer goes on.
I am convinced that Schmidt has decided these are the guys for the World Cup and baring injury they are there for the duration.

Let's not forget Kearney, of the Dave version, contributed to a Championship under Joe (nothing to prove and did it as 'boringly' workmanlike as it's currently being worked by his replacement)
We say the current 'boring' plan is under strict instructions. Last year's version of the plan was as regimented.

So let's not be too hasty - Wales and Scotland to come. Hope we're all smiling by the end.

SecretFly wrote:Let's not forget Kearney, of the Dave version, contributed to a Championship under Joe (nothing to prove and did it as 'boringly' workmanlike as it's currently being worked by his replacement)  
We say the current 'boring' plan is under strict instructions.  Last year's version of the plan was as regimented.

So let's not be too hasty - Wales and Scotland to come.  Hope we're all smiling by the end.

Sorry Fly but I would like to forget Dave Kearney myself, far better wingers in Ireland than him. Solid player but way too predictable in what he does and is easy to defend.

Mickado wrote: had Henshaw caught Goode behind the try line I would fancy us to have scored off of it.

Henshaw was a fecking fool. The lad's not up to International. He's overhyped, over-weight and over-sized. Big mistake by Schmidt letting him near a green jersey.

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's not forget Kearney, of the Dave version, contributed to a Championship under Joe (nothing to prove and did it as 'boringly' workmanlike as it's currently being worked by his replacement)  
We say the current 'boring' plan is under strict instructions.  Last year's version of the plan was as regimented.

So let's not be too hasty - Wales and Scotland to come.  Hope we're all smiling by the end.

Sorry Fly but I would like to forget Dave Kearney myself, far better wingers in Ireland than him. Solid player but way too predictable in what he does and is easy to defend.

We'll, see what he was when his career ends.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's not forget Kearney, of the Dave version, contributed to a Championship under Joe (nothing to prove and did it as 'boringly' workmanlike as it's currently being worked by his replacement)  
We say the current 'boring' plan is under strict instructions.  Last year's version of the plan was as regimented.

So let's not be too hasty - Wales and Scotland to come.  Hope we're all smiling by the end.

Sorry Fly but I would like to forget Dave Kearney myself, far better wingers in Ireland than him. Solid player but way too predictable in what he does and is easy to defend.

We'll, see what he was when his career ends.  

I like to be proven wrong and wish him the best but just don't see him as a good winger

I have a theory about our lack of offloading.

Leinster used to do it all the time under Schmidt but it really became a weapon in the latter stages of the season, I remember reading/hearing Nacewa talking about the way they coach the offload and saying that he knew that if he threw an offload at the right time and the right way, that there would be someone there to receive it, and if there wasn't, then the system had broken down somewhere. So basically the onus is on the support to be in the right place and not the offloader to ensure that they find someone to pass to.

At this level, players haven't got the level of familiarity to be able to read eachothers runs and know when an offload is coming so we've held off on doing it, but I've no doubt that this team is building that relationship week in week out, we've got a swashbuckling performance in us, but I'm perfectly happy to watch us build up to it.

Anyway, I'm just delighted BOD has another chance at another 6N title after his retirement last year. Seems he was a late sub I didn't notice in all the drama of the ending:



Radio NZ caption: Ireland Rugby Players Celebrate

SecretFly wrote:Anyway, I'm just delighted BOD has another chance at another 6N title after his retirement last year.  Seems he was a late sub I didn't notice in all the drama of the ending:



Radio NZ caption:  Ireland Rugby Players Celebrate

Another photographer was also busy snapping celebrations at the Cricket World Cup. His framing was purely accidental I'm sure.....

geoff998rugby wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:   The problem is the actual favourite is way ahead. The plus for you chaps is that they may well face the Boks in the semis who are the team most likely to be able to upset them.

Lets not lose sight when we talk about any teams chances at the world cup it really boils down to at what stage you lose to New Zealand.

Why do you think we will play SA - they are almost certain to win their group and if they do they will be in the other half of the draw to Ireland (provided we beat France)

Ireland either lose to France and play NZ in the QF or win the group and have a winnable SF against England, Wales or Australia.
The way the draw is NZ v SA is very likely to be a SF.

The only way Ireland will play SA in the SF is beating NZ in the QF

I thinknyou misread what I said. I was suggesting that new Zealand will most likely face sa in the semis meaning you only have to beat one of the two best sides to win the cup.
Really the final should be Irelands... Final. The draw sits beautifully for them.

At least as things stand right now but form has been.very choppy for all the chasing teams over the last few years.

Understood

It is very simply beat France and a final is a very real possibility.
Lose to France and it is probably curtains at the hand of NZ

Pot Hale wrote:

Another photographer was also busy snapping celebrations at the Cricket World Cup.  His framing was purely accidental I'm sure.....

That's brilliant

love the confident chat. but...

big difference between beating england in dublin in round 3 of the 6 nations, and beating England at Twickenham in the RWC semi-final

lots can happen between now and then too. imagine if sexton or murray get crocked playing against France in the pool match or Arg in the quarters?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm saying you can't win because you never have when it really matters in a world cup, beating teams in the autumn internationals will soon be forgotten when push comes to shove. Just like the Welsh, the Irish can't do it on the biggest stage, all the teams I said will beat you, have.

Its not O'Sullivan or Kidney in charge now it is Schmidt - that is the crucial difference

Also going on his logic,Spain should never have won the football World Cup.

quinsforever wrote:love the confident chat. but...

big difference between beating england in dublin in round 3 of the 6 nations, and beating England at Twickenham in the RWC semi-final

lots can happen between now and then too. imagine if sexton or murray get crocked playing against France in the pool match or Arg in the quarters?

Here's one of these specially for you, quins:



It seems we have to show one to express full respect to the idea that the World Cup is in England and we've never won it before.

captain carrantuohil wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was also some beautiful sleight of hand in among the crash-balls that created space, the quality that is so absent in the modern game, for the other backs. I'd say that Sexton's understanding with O'Driscoll was another factor that gave Jonny the confidence to vary the play more from 10 than he has this year.

Ireland didnt offload at all last year either. Some very short term memory at play on here.

Well, they may not have offloaded as often as the others, but the total was still 27 by season's end - at the current rate that will be about double this season's output. As I said, if you've got a sublime passer in midfield, who can put a man into space in his sleep, then you'll look to exploit that. No O'Driscoll has meant a slightly different, equally effective mind-set.

I think the game generally has changed a bit since last year - the scrums are longer now without the hit so the ball is slower coming out - making it difficult to run set plays. The other thing is referees are letting defences creep offside - England were at it all afternoon. The game just evolves from year to year and what sets Schmidt apart is his ability to adapt to it.

Last year the maul was the source of a lot of our tries, as was the cross field kick - neither has been as effective over the last few games but we've been close with a few.

quinsforever wrote:love the confident chat. but...

big difference between beating england in dublin in round 3 of the 6 nations, and beating England at Twickenham in the RWC semi-final

lots can happen between now and then too. imagine if sexton or murray get crocked playing against France in the pool match or Arg in the quarters?

You could say that about any teams best players. Imagine if McCaw got injured during the last WC. NZ certainly struggled a lot without Carter I doubt they would have won v France without McCaw.

Also Ireland have a really good record in Twickenham so I would be quietly confident though I accept it would be a much tougher test. Ireland also have won v England 9 times in the six nations to England's 7 wins so I dont think England will fancy meeting Ireland. In any case there is a really strong possibility that England will not win their group in which case it will be against Australia or Wales.

While I'm looking forward to the World Cup, I'm strongly in favour of focusing entirely on the Wales game- even the Scotland game is getting ahead of ourselves!

Nah, I know it's just idle chatter since we have to wait nearly two weeks for our next game. But if we should lose to Wales and lose the title the mood going into the World Cup will be entirely different.

I see there is as strong an assumption that England will definitely be in that semi-final. For me, it's not a given at all. Very possible they will be, but a group stage exist is also possible. Less likely, but possible. I think there's a real chance that group will finish with three wins each for Wales, England and Australia- meaning everything from 3rd to 1st is on the table for England. I make them favourites for the group but with plenty of room for error

I know that England are good enough to beat everyone in their group I just don't see them as miles better. They could lose to either of those sides on their day, even at home. Similar assumption Ireland will definitely beat France. Its not a given at all!

no-one is assuming england will get a home semi final. we could definitely lose 2 matches in the group and go out of the competition. obviously i hope not.

it is so far away, that it doesnt really bear too much worrying about.

guns - my point about murray and sexton is are Boss and Madigan ready to guide this team to the finals of RWC? those two players are so key for Ireland, in a way that i cant think of for any other teams. McCaw is past it now. talismanic, but replaceable on field with ABs plentiful talent. In the modern game, with aerial bombardment, yellow cards for toppling the catcher, and impregnable defenses, the role of 9 and 10 are more important than ever before.

quinsforever wrote:no-one is assuming england will get a home semi final. we could definitely lose 2 matches in the group and go out of the competition. obviously i hope not.

it is so far away, that it doesnt really bear too much worrying about.

guns - my point about murray and sexton is are Boss and Madigan ready to guide this team to the finals of RWC? those two players are so key for Ireland, in a way that i cant think of for any other teams. McCaw is past it now. talismanic, but replaceable on field with ABs plentiful talent. In the modern game, with aerial bombardment, yellow cards for toppling the catcher, and impregnable defenses, the role of 9 and 10 are more important than ever before.

I would be surprised if either Boss or Madigan would be in the squad myself. I would have Reddan there and (I am not sure how his recovery is going, Ulster fans?) Paddy Jackson in the squad. Paddy Jackson is more than an accomplished back up to Sexton.

rodders wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was also some beautiful sleight of hand in among the crash-balls that created space, the quality that is so absent in the modern game, for the other backs. I'd say that Sexton's understanding with O'Driscoll was another factor that gave Jonny the confidence to vary the play more from 10 than he has this year.

Ireland didnt offload at all last year either. Some very short term memory at play on here.

Well, they may not have offloaded as often as the others, but the total was still 27 by season's end - at the current rate that will be about double this season's output. As I said, if you've got a sublime passer in midfield, who can put a man into space in his sleep, then you'll look to exploit that. No O'Driscoll has meant a slightly different, equally effective mind-set.

I think the game generally has changed a bit since last year - the scrums are longer now without the hit so the ball is slower coming out - making it difficult to run set plays. The other thing is referees are letting defences creep offside - England were at it all afternoon. The game just evolves from year to year and what sets Schmidt apart is his ability to adapt to it.

Last year the maul was the source of a lot of our tries, as was the cross field kick - neither has been as effective over the last few games but we've been close with a few.

It's true, they're also letting teams ruck about 10 metres past the ball and hold onto defending players practically until the next phase. Difficult to say what will be next.

So who would replace Robshaw who is given totemic status in England as their tireless leader?

Who would replace Paul O'Connell?  He's not central to Ireland's cause?  Who would replace Brown?  The person who replaced him at the weekend?

Teams - all of them, have players they wouldn't like to lose.  But fate means you have to get on with it.  We don't know what Ireland would do without Sexton in a crunch - but it would be lazy thinking to think Joe Schmidt and his coaches haven't thought about it or planned methods to keep us competitive if it happens/happened.

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:love the confident chat. but...

big difference between beating england in dublin in round 3 of the 6 nations, and beating England at Twickenham in the RWC semi-final

lots can happen between now and then too. imagine if sexton or murray get crocked playing against France in the pool match or Arg in the quarters?

You could say that about any teams best players. Imagine if McCaw got injured during the last WC. NZ certainly struggled a lot without Carter I doubt they would have won v France without McCaw.

Also Ireland have a really good record in Twickenham so I would be quietly confident though I accept it would be a much tougher test. Ireland also have won v England 9 times in the six nations to England's 7 wins so I dont think England will fancy meeting Ireland.  In any case there is a really strong possibility that England will not win their group in which case it will be against Australia or Wales.

Ireland don't have a really good record in Twickenham - you last won there 5 years ago - lost the last two.

3 wins out of the last 10 matches at Twickenham isn't great is it? Also in each of those games the margin was small too. Is a 30% record good in your mind?


England have still won 4 out of 5 in the recent encounters.

One win against England now Ireland are being talked up as world cup finalists already!

Hood83 wrote:

It's true, they're also letting teams ruck about 10 metres past the ball and hold onto defending players practically until the next phase. Difficult to say what will be next.

Yes, and I've seen certainly most of the better sides do both and most of the lesser sides do the latter one

beshocked wrote:

Ireland don't have a really good record in Twickenham - you last won there 5 years ago - lost the last two.

3 wins out of the last 10 matches at Twickenham isn't great is it? Also in each of those games the margin was small too. Is a 30% record good in your mind?


England have still won 4 out of 5 in the recent encounters.

One win against England now Ireland are being talked up as world cup finalists already!

In the six nations there have been 8 Ireland v England matches in Twickenham. Ireland have won 3 England 5. That is definitely a good return. It is a better record than any other visiting six nations team. France and Wales have won 2.

Also the game in Twickenham last year was very close so I felt quite positive that Ireland weren't too far off a win there. Another bounce of the ball and the six nations head to head would have been 4-4. I also think Ireland have improved more than England have since then.

Not sure Ireland have improved that much to be honest. They were good then and good now. Records are nice to have but do more than the last couple of matches really matter in terms of judging the respective teams?

beshocked wrote:

Ireland don't have a really good record in Twickenham - you last won there 5 years ago - lost the last two.

3 wins out of the last 10 matches at Twickenham isn't great is it? Also in each of those games the margin was small too. Is a 30% record good in your mind?


England have still won 4 out of 5 in the recent encounters.

One win against England now Ireland are being talked up as world cup finalists already!

If the past wins games then talk about the past.  The problem for some English supporters is that they see England's recent four-game winning record against Ireland as pretty much a norm that's now been broken by the 'home advantage' win in Dublin.
Look at Six Nations history - 2000 to today.  How many wins apiece?  Quite evenly split.  9 to Ireland, 8 to England.  Ireland had their own four-game streak a few years back.  

So what's the future through a longer lense?  Tet-a-tet either way for a while until one begins to get a more long term advantage again?  Who is to say.  What happens will happen.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure Ireland have improved that much to be honest. They were good then and good now. Records are nice to have but do more than the last couple of matches really matter in terms of judging the respective teams?

Well the last couple is one apiece. Both home games won. Schmidt loses one, wins one. Lancaster wins one, loses one.

Yup I agree Fly. I still see the teams as close despite a rubbish game from us this weekend. All I'm saying is the results from more the last couple start to become irrelevant as the players, and even management, are all different (at least a fair few).

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Ireland don't have a really good record in Twickenham - you last won there 5 years ago - lost the last two.

3 wins out of the last 10 matches at Twickenham isn't great is it? Also in each of those games the margin was small too. Is a 30% record good in your mind?


England have still won 4 out of 5 in the recent encounters.

One win against England now Ireland are being talked up as world cup finalists already!

If the past wins games then talk about the past.  The problem for some English supporters is that they see England's recent four-game winning record against Ireland as pretty much a norm that's now been broken by the 'home advantage' win in Dublin.
Look at Six Nations history - 2000 to today.  How many wins apiece?  Quite evenly split.  9 to Ireland, 8 to England.  Ireland had their own four-game streak a few years back.  

So what's the future through a longer lense?  Tet-a-tet either way for a while until one begins to get a more long term advantage again?  Who is to say.  What happens will happen.

7 to England. One of their wins was a WC warm up game.

Highlights from the weekends game with commentary from 'Gerry Scrumley'

................it's not a forward pass!
.......... it's two minutes too late for the showers, that's what it was.

Secretfly if you just look at the last two it's 1 apiece but if you look at the last 5 it's 4 to England.

Depends how you want to look at the stats.

Gunsgerms I could easily say that Ireland haven't won at Twickenham since 2010 which I said earlier.

The reality is that both England and Ireland have been evenly matched in the 6 nations but advantage has gone with the home side.

Ireland were better than England on the day - better tactics. Doesn't mean it will be the same next time.


I was impressed by Ireland's control and they won relatively easily but it's not all rosy.

Ireland looked a bit rudderless without Sexton - perhaps too much reliance on Sexton and Murray?

Ireland's attack is still something that needs a lot of work - with their territory and possession it was quite dull to be honest. With the amount of things going in Ireland's favour they should have won by more than 10.

Ireland won ultimately because they stopped English momentum all over the pitch - what happens if Ireland can't manage that?

Will England be that emphatically beaten in almost every aspect of the game next time? I am not so sure.

It's not good if you are English but at least the flaws and cracks have been laid out for all to see.

The Irish weaknesses have not yet.