Ireland v England - Post-match warmdown

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Ireland 19 - 9 England

A continuation of the match thread.

Be respectful please. Your mothers would be proud.

beshocked wrote:I expect Goode will be the scapegoat but I thought he was no more error strewn than the rest of the team ( he actually dug England out of some precarious positions too).

I'd agree that Goode didn't stand out as particularly bad in light of the overall performance. That said, I also think he showed that he's not international class. His little jink out from under the posts was good, but he was only under so much pressure because he was so slow getting back. Watch it back. He must give up five metres to the Irish chase. He's a good club player, but at international level his all round game can't make up for his lack of pace and strength.

It was a poor all round team performance, but I can see how other players can do better. I can't see how Goode improves.

Bedfordwelsh personally I thought Billy was the only back rower to seemed to make ground with ball in hand.

I felt Robshaw was uncharacteristically poor. Haskell was a penalty machine and had a shocker IMO.

beshocked wrote:Bedfordwelsh personally I thought Billy was the only back rower to seemed to make ground with ball in hand.

I felt Robshaw was uncharacteristically poor. Haskell was a penalty machine and had a shocker IMO.

beshocked,

Not saying he's been poor I don't know just expected more from him over the 3 games in total.

Why did the England players look lethargic or not up for it. Almost half hearted.

Bedfordwelsh I thought he was excellent vs Italy, bit lethargic against Wales. Okay against Ireland - some good, some bad. I thought he did have some nice carries.

Also it doesn't help when the breakdown as a whole is going against you. Ireland attacked the breakdown very well. England in comparison struggled whether it was being too sluggish or not interpreting Joubert well enough I don't know.

Geordiefalcon I don't know.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why did the England players look lethargic or not up for it. Almost half hearted.

I don't think that was the case. I just think that Ireland looked a lot fitter and more pumped up for the game than England did.

Maybe just me then but Morgan is a huge loss he' gets you on the front foot so often and makes so many yards all the time.

I thought Goode was very good. His try saving heroics forgotten as he will be scapegoated for the excellent Irish try.

The problem for England was a faltering set piece. The line out was comprehensively lost and the scrum was a shambles at vital times.

Atwood was poor. Not physical enough, and too often clumsy and amateurish as he conceded penalties and failed to assert himself at the breakdown. But then the entire back row was quiet. The balance totally wrong.

Ireland by contrast were accurate, aggressive and persistent. Only Sextons untimely departure gave England a sniff.

Lancaster again got his substitutions wrong by failing to introduce capriani for the out-of-his-depth and rattled Ford.

Well obviously delighted.  Thanks to all the English lads here who posted gracious comments.  Robshaw too was a gentleman on the RTE coverage.

That's a big one - because England are a big one.  I really respect them as a side and they've looked so ruthless and dangerous these past few years with so much talent to call on from the bench (and back from injury etc)

So to push them back on their haunches for much of the game, to get stuck into their forwards, to not crumble under the final assaults..... and to unsettle their pre-plans about what they might have done to us - it was a huge game to win to keep the momentum that Schmidt has brought to this team going.

Nothing comes cheap, and it's back to the grindstone again in advance of Wales - as they'll put everything into it to stop our run.  We'll need the same effort.  But it's another rung in the ladder that keeps this relatively 'new' consistency habit of Ireland going.

I'm glad there are another two weeks to go before the next game!  My heart needs the break

Was Ford out of his depth, I didn't think so but was outplayed by Sexton which given that he is one of the best 10s in World at the mo is no shame.

Agree about the lineout and can't remember last time I seen such a poor performance by an English lineout.

Ireland won 117 out of 118 rucks today.

Obvious where the game was won.

Ford crumbled. He was targeted by Ireland. Sexton just destroyed him. He lost faith in his kicking and repeatedly showed his lack of experience with naive play. Running it from deep when England needed terroritory and kicking it away when England needed possession. He didn't control the match and he didn't get England in the right places. He will learn, but today he showed his green he is, as did he rest of the England back line who had previously looked good in this tournament.

Ireland may them look that way, by over running the breakdown mind you.

Ireland all class.,I can't see anything stopping a grandslam now and look out rest of the world at the World Cup - if and only if they can keep their spine injury free.

Nice to see Cian Healey back in action, even if he was at 50% fitness.

RM,

Guess its hard for a 10 to control a game behind a beaten pack but didn't think he was that bad and like I said against one of the best 10s in the world he will as you said learn from it.

I think they have to stick with him though along with Joseph and Watson.

I wouldn't single out ford.

The whole team we're well beaten. The forward platform was non existent.. .

Goode was exceptional under the high ball but i would rather have had Nowell or Watson at fb with the other and May at wing. But it would have been irrelevant as they got no decent ball anyway.

TheRugbyMaster wrote:Ford crumbled. He was targeted by Ireland. Sexton just destroyed him. He lost faith in his kicking and repeatedly showed his lack of experience with naive play. Running it from deep when England needed terroritory and kicking it away when England needed possession. He didn't control the match and he didn't get England in the right places.  He will learn, but today he showed his green he is, as did he rest of the England back line who had previously looked good in this tournament.  

Ireland may them look that way, by over running the breakdown mind you.

Ireland all class.,I can't see anything stopping a grandslam now and look out rest of the world at the World Cup - if and only if they can keep their spine injury free.

Nice to see Cian Healey back in action, even if he was at 50% fitness.

The rest of the world...notably The SH 3 will adapt to Irelands tactics like we didn't. They were excellent, but need more spark in the attack.

Ireland v Wales is going.to be fascinating.

the kicking game that lost england the match was ours not their. we knew they were going to kick to us, and defended fine. seemed like no-one knew that sometimes we were going to kick infield to them, hence zero kick-chase.

quinsforever wrote:the kicking game that lost england the match was ours not their. we knew they were going to kick to us, and defended fine. seemed like no-one knew that sometimes we were going to kick infield to them, hence zero kick-chase.

Yes quins - I found the lack of chase very annoying.

I thought that Henshaw had a very good game but he is being let down by his centre partner in Payne. Henshaw was making the ground but Payne was nowhere to be seen. Again I raise the question as to whether or not Payne is a 13 let alone an international 13.

maestegmafia wrote:Well played Ireland. You blew them away.

Just like England blew Wales away in the opening game ?

Well that went better than expected.

However, Ireland have a lot to do for their next game against Wales.

Their passing was abysmal at times, and there is a over-reliance on kicking that could land them in a trouble against a well-prepared team.

Gatland will have noted the limited game plan of Ireland and its inherent effectiveness against England.  He'll also have noticed the ongoing injury woes to players such as Sexton, O'Brien, Payne, Henshaw, etc.  No doubt, he'll plan accordingly.

Injuries seems to be an ongoing issue - the departure of O'Brien and Sexton just looked worrying - not for their absence from the side - but for the possible injuries they received and long-term effect.  In addition, there were head clashes in the game that looked - to my view - quite intentional.   There is a horrendous head injury incident waiting to happen in the game - one that is going to be potentially fatal for some player.  I hope not - but changes are needed in the laws to prevent these incidents - before someone dies as a result.

A muted well done to Ireland - that's about it from me.    Players' lives are at risk, and very little is being done about it.

quinsforever wrote:the kicking game that lost england the match was ours not their. we knew they were going to kick to us, and defended fine. seemed like no-one knew that sometimes we were going to kick infield to them, hence zero kick-chase.

Perhaps yes, that might have been a surprise given that Schmidt himself, when challenged about his kick-chase 'boring' game, isolated a fact that Ireland didn't have the honour of kicking most in this 6N - that the honour actually belonged to England before this weekend.

But there's not a lot you can do against a side like England except kick behind them  Schmidt again kinda made a reference to the size of rugby field when playing against a very good team - there's not a lot else to you can do to take a ball past a rugged defence except kick.

So yes, overly kicking in a game against a lesser side that might have more holes to run through or around can be frustrating.  But the object was to beat England - not play into their hands by zigzagging in front of their watertight defence with ball in hand.


Ireland won because they unsettled England's perceptions of the intensity we'd bring to all areas, not simply because of our kicking game.  I'm surprised Lancaster couldn't mimic that expected endeavour from us in training.  He said he expected it but the players just didn't seem to be able to cope with it until the Irish begin to tire dramatically at the end (an Achilles heel we'll have to look into more)

That's what impressed me most though about Ireland today.  England forced them to show a few more gears - the first real outing this year.  It might settle our nerves a little as forever doubting Irish people

Pot Hale wrote:In addition, there were head clashes in the game that looked - to my view - quite intentional.

Which incidents?

The only head clash I can remember in the game was Healy and Cole. I don't think either player intentionally tried to clash heads there.

I'm not sure why anyone would as it's often a matter of luck who comes off worst in a head clash.

Nachos Jones wrote:I thought that Henshaw had a very good game but he is being let down by his centre partner in Payne. Henshaw was making the ground but Payne was nowhere to be seen. Again I raise the question as to whether or not Payne is a 13 let alone an international 13.

Perhaps a detail talk for next week but yeah - I'm not downing him, he's playing to a gameplan designed by Schmidt and co and we're winning. But I think we should now have a look at another combination because it does seem a little unbalanced. Henshaw looks a step up in intensity when alongside Payne, who should be providing an equal challenge for the opposition to keep them on their toes. We need more danger men putting a hand up to spread the effort an opposition side must make.

Cyril wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:In addition, there were head clashes in the game that looked - to my view - quite intentional.

Which incidents?

The only head clash I can remember in the game was Healy and Cole. I don't think either player intentionally tried to clash heads there.

I think Cole was expecting Healy's head to be elsewhere but was only lowering his shoulder (head must be ahead of shoulders when that happens) to give himself more impact on the hit.  It was an innocent clash but lots of muscle from two players trying to make a statement.  Cole came off best.

Bloody hell that was annoying. Ireland just too good today especially Sexton. if only his hamstring had given up 15 min before!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bloody hell that was annoying. Ireland just too good today especially Sexton. if only his hamstring had given up 15 min before!

I totaly agree Ireland was just too good, and England IMO was to over eager at the break down, going off side, and Ireland just kept the score board ticking over. When you have a kicker like Johnny Sexton and the penalties are with in kicking range, you take the kicks at goal.

Ireland in my mind should now go on and win the Grand Slam. If they don't well put it this way, it will take a good team to stop them.

The game went the way I thought and hoped it would.

England played well in patches and Ireland played bad in patches so it wasn't very comfortable from an Ireland point of view. Goode was questioned but he played very well. One English player who I would question is Burrell. He is a very average player and his size has no effect in international rugby.


Nearly ever game under Schmidt sees Ireland take a lead and hang on to it in the last 20 min. Its something they need to sort out. Madigan didn't have a good game when he came on. Hopefully some of the injuries clear up for the Welsh match.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I thought that Henshaw had a very good game but he is being let down by his centre partner in Payne. Henshaw was making the ground but Payne was nowhere to be seen. Again I raise the question as to whether or not Payne is a 13 let alone an international 13.

Perhaps a detail talk for next week but yeah - I'm not downing him, he's playing to a gameplan designed by Schmidt and co and we're winning.  But I think we should now have a look at another combination because it does seem a little unbalanced.  Henshaw looks a step up in intensity when alongside Payne, who should be providing an equal challenge for the opposition to keep them on their toes.  We need more danger men putting a hand up to spread the effort an opposition side must make.

See, now I could understand it was the tactics if they both had played they did the first two tests. This test, Henshaw was a driving force and taking it to the English defence and I believe that was also a tactic from Schmidt. Thing is, Payne was pretty much non existent during this match and his positional awareness seemed poor for an international 13. Defnce is solid but he really brings nothing else in my eyes.

Agree with the point about Burrell, profitius - seemed slower in thought than the rest of the England back line, who generally showed up OK, given how creaky the platform was that their forwards constructed. Jonathan Davies' highly accurate, almost cruel freeze-framing of Burrell's lack of awareness/slowness of hand that led to Sexton's third kickable penalty in the first half said more than any words could.

Very annoying. So many needless mistakes under little pressure (which then lead to actual pressure an more mistakes). However, The game was mainly lost in the competition in the air and the ruck, which were both won by Ireland because they're simply better than us at them.  We didn't go with with the refs ruck interpretation (attacker can come in at the side to clear out and use of arms was optional, and the defender could flop over the ball while supported by the players on the floor) and simply couldn't compete (hey, I had to get one dig in). I felt that Ireland got the rub of the green from the reffing team, but only marginally, which probably means he was fair.

Overall, disappointing from England, but it seems to be the same old problems.  Ireland, well played. As one dimensional as Wales but change that dimension depending on the opposition (so multidimensional but you know what I mean).

Edit: oh, and I largely agree on Burrell. I was surprised when Twelvetrees came on for Jospeh, but he might have had a knock. I didn't think Goode brought his experience to the back three, although Nowell was decent. And the whole team seemed a bit slow, especially at kick chases. Perhaps it was diliberate in that the back three stayed back for kicks.

Goode played exactly as was expected. Good taking the high ball some decent kicks, one lovely run when under a lot of pressure but a lot of 'jink splat'. It isnt his fault we lost but absence does tend to focus the mind on what Brown offers.- i.e. proper 'go forward'

Watson. Great future, one nice run I saw before I found something more fun to do, like cleaning... But if May got the boot after the 'mistakes' he made where does that leave Watson?

I thought Payne played a very solid game and while Henshaw got motm some of his tackling was suspect...only change I can see or hope for is earls for Jones in the 23.

Also big shout for TOD 13 tackles and zero missed...

HammerofThunor wrote:Very annoying. So many needless mistakes under little pressure (which then lead to actual pressure an more mistakes). However, The game was mainly lost in the competition in the air and the ruck, which were both won by Ireland because they're simply better than us at them. We didn't go with with the refs ruck interpretation (attacker can come in at the side to clear out and use of arms was optional, and the defender could flop over the ball while supported by the players on the floor) and simply couldn't compete (hey, I had to get one dig in). I felt that Ireland got the rub of the green from the reffing team, but only marginally, which probably means he was fair.

Overall, disappointing from England, but it seems to be the same old problems. Ireland, well played. As one dimensional as Wales but change that dimension depending on the opposition (so multidimensional but you know what I mean).

You're right England were flopping all over the ball all day

ME-109,

Do you really feel that Payne is an international standard 13?

I feel that Cave, Earls or Fitz would be far better than him.

Nachos Jones wrote:ME-109,

Do you really feel that Payne is an international standard 13?

I feel that Cave, Earls or Fitz would be far better than him.

http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/fixtures/943/2015/20150301/776857/#/keyinfluencers

The stats say Payne was Ireland's 3rd most effective player. Cave and Earls are too small to play 13 internationally when Ireland have a tendency towards being outmuscled- (Earls was characteristically steamrolled at one point last week- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10 )

I don't see Fitzgerald as a centre, and I think I remember reading last week that Schmidt doesn't either. He's the sort of player you create opportunities for, not who creates opportunities for others. A player like that should be on the wing.

Nachos Jones wrote:ME-109,

Do you really feel that Payne is an international standard 13?

I feel that Cave, Earls or Fitz would be far better than him.

I agree with ME-109. Payne had a solid game. Best back for me. Nothing went through him and he made no mistakes. Got hurt on another tackle on Billy V. I don't know why there is so much talk directed towards Payne being replaced. Its almost like an endeavor to find a way to put Earls in the side at the expense of Payne.

I just don't get it. 10 wins in a row and Payne is a big part of the team yet after every game there's a side swipe at him.

We, and the Eng coaches must've known Ireland are sh1t hot at kicking and the breakdown yet we were so poorly prepared for it. Still, a well deserved Ireland performance. Their intensity was immense ans sexton was superb. I thought Goode was ok and pretty solid, altho I'd like to see Watson there in the future. Impressed with Nowell too. Ireland are a brilliant side at the moment so I'm not too down.

Its not a swipe at Payne, I simply do not see him as an international 13 that's all. I would prefer to have Cave, Earls or even Fitz at 13 ahead of him. I would have Payne on the bench as cover for these positions instead of Felix Jones. I cant see how that showing any bias towards getting Earls into the team.

TheRugbyMaster wrote:I thought Goode was very good. His try saving heroics forgotten as he will be scapegoated for the excellent Irish try.

Goode did well to get out from under the posts given the pressure. He wouldn't have been under that pressure if he weren't so slow though. None of England's other fullback options would have given up that much ground, so I wouldn't accept talk of try saving heroics.

The slaughtering of Ford by some is laughable. He had a decent game, was outshone by Sexton but looked better than Madigan.

England's kicking game was not terrible - but the chasing was. There was a little passage of play in the second half where Ford put up a decent high ball that Kearney had to take just outside his 22 and fumbled. We had no chasers though and he coudl regather before it became a knock on. A couple of phases later Ireland put up a bomb, Goode is under pressure and fumbles with Watson playing the ball from an offside position.

Three things sttod out for me:

1) How much we missed Jonny May and Mike Brown's chasing of the high ball. In the first two games May was making average kicks look good with his pace, energy and determination. That was not replaced.

2) The laziness of our support runners. First half Ford spins round Zebo and breaks. Watson in support merely jogs rather than busting a gut and allows Zebo to stop, turn and recover to get between Watson and Ford and intercept the attempted pass.
Billy V breaks of the back of a wheeled scrum where Joubert is playing advantage and makes good ground. Ben Youngs in support keeps up with him but stays wide rather than getting on his shoulder. Wigglesworth breaks and support is nowhere to be seen.

3) Brain farts at the breakdown. Ireland chose not to utilise the choke tackle. First man brought the ball carrier to ground and the second put hands on the ball and we were penalised for holding on(Now they were not really trying to get the ball but rather prevent the player from releasing - Mako was clever as when it was done to him he pulled his arms well away from the ball and Ireland were penalised). Meanwhile Haskell and Attwood tried to choke tackle and usually ended up lying on the wrong side and penalised.

Brown would've inevitably have been out of position, looking for glory in the line and then stood with his hands on hips shaking his head whilst muttering about how it was someone else's fault.

Id add to that the lineout LT. The missing Lawes Launchbury and Wood stood out today for me. Hartley and England have gone from the best in world rugbu to average: huge loss.

The two missed lineouts early on during a rare foray to the Irish 22 certainly set the tone.

Blanko wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:ME-109,

Do you really feel that Payne is an international standard 13?

I feel that Cave, Earls or Fitz would be far better than him.

I agree with ME-109. Payne had a solid game. Best back for me. Nothing went through him and he made no mistakes. Got hurt on another tackle on Billy V.  I don't know why there is so much talk directed towards Payne being replaced. Its almost like an endeavor to find a way to put Earls in the side at the expense of Payne.

I just don't get it. 10 wins in a row and Payne is a big part of the team yet after every game there's a side swipe at him.

Payne wasn't involved in all 10 now.    Let's not start rewriting history.  

Zebo usually gets a side swipe.  Only lately that he seems to have cast off the villain role.  I know I've often brought up Murray (Great today Conor. )
Em, who else gets it in the neck from time to time? Madigan, every time he comes in cold to a game away ahead of him and doesn't do exactly as Sexton - he gets it in the neck.  Dave Kearney when he was playing on a continuing winning side often got it in the neck.

Jared has a club he can join - he's certainly not alone in shipping criticism.

How can people still be calling for Earls after the match last night? He yet again demonstrated that he can almost never take the right option when he failed to put ROM in for a simply try against Glasgow in the first half.

I thought Payne had his best game yet and is at least a very solid option at 13. The player that people should be calling for is Fitzy; to come in for Jones. He's been Leinster's best player all season.

Huge game Ireland- congratulations to the team and all the fans. A simple game plan executed to perfection made for a miserable viewing as an England fan.

England boys didn't seem up for the game. Once again we got off poorly and went down early. Haskell and Attwood were penalty machines today and it can't go on. We got destroyed at the breakdown and pinned back by a supreme kicking game from Sexton and Murray. I think England's main problem other than losing the physical battle and giving away too many penalties was that we got sucked into playing Ireland's game. Ford and Youngs resorted to kicking rather than embracing what this England team is good at. Pointless and aimless kicks, combined with the fact that Ireland's kicking is miles ahead of ours was a recipe for disaster.

There was absolutely no kick chase. How we missed May's speed and determination out on the wing. You only realise what he's doing when he's taken away. Ireland's counter attack deserved the utmost respect, and we didn't give it to them.

Ford was fine. Outplayed, but has so much promise. He took too much on himself when perhaps he should have passed, but he's still learning.

Subs bench injected some pace, but I question Croft, Easter and Wigglesworth's inclusion. Easter played well, but we must have better options. How slow is Wigglesworth's service??

Nachos Jones wrote:ME-109,

Do you really feel that Payne is an international standard 13?

I feel that Cave, Earls or Fitz would be far better than him.

Jury is still out but he is doing a job alá Joes game plan and actually made more metres than Henshaw. I think it is Earls/Fitz and Cave in that order behind. I think that Earls will not get a chance before the end of the 6ns as Joe is more conservative than DK in making changes. If Earls continues in the form he is in he will be in the WC squad that is how Joe works.

I dont go with Kunus simplistic (AKA provincial bias) regarding Earls. He was on fire last night and his tackling was good. Put it this way I dont think Goode would have escaped from behind the goal line with Earls chasing him....

Ford - nice footwork solid defense decent place kicking. Kicking by hand way too deep. I don't know if it was a 'tactic' or a brain fart but that should have been fixed.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can people still be calling for Earls after the match last night? He yet again demonstrated that he can almost never take the right option when he failed to put ROM in for a simply try against Glasgow in the first half.

I thought Payne had his best game yet and is at least a very solid option at 13. The player that people should be calling for is Fitzy; to come in for Jones. He's been Leinster's best player all season.

Leinster you really should think before you post (or at least look at the greater picture). To my mind ROM wasnt making the call loud enough and on top of the excellent two breaks he made numerous passes and offloads and was overall excellent his reading of the play from Hurley was great and his try sumptuous (another outrageous bit of skill) . I am not calling for Payne to be dropped...far from it but Earls is surely putting his hand up in a big way.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How can people still be calling for Earls after the match last night? He yet again demonstrated that he can almost never take the right option when he failed to put ROM in for a simply try against Glasgow in the first half.

I thought Payne had his best game yet and is at least a very solid option at 13. The player that people should be calling for is Fitzy; to come in for Jones. He's been Leinster's best player all season.

Oh dear. Not much of a medal this year unfortunately Fitz never exactly shone with Ireland. So the difference between him and Earls wouldn't be as B&W as you appear to make it, Leinster.