Title Decider 2: Wales v Ireland 14 March

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WALES v IRELAND
Saturday 14 March 2015
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Chris Pollock (NZR)
AR2: Federico Anselmi (UAR)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

*****

The bookies are keeping with their earlier predictions of no GS winner above Ireland's chances. And same for the Triple Crown.  Though they have Ireland as favourites in Cardiff but not by much.

Given the distinct love-in that we've had over the last fortnight between Irish and English fans, are Wales now the new 'old enemy'?

Keep it clean folks.

Well a bit anyway.

Ireland team:
15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 13. Jared Payne (Ulster) 12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Replacements: 16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 23. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)

Wales Team: Webb, Roberts, Biggar, North, Williams, Halfpenny, Davies, Jones, Falateau, Warburton, Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee.
Replacements: R Hibbard R Evans A Jarvis , J Ball J Tipuric , M Phillips , R Priestland , S Williams

Notch wrote:Ireland name a 36-man training squad for rounds 4 and 5 without Gordon D'Arcy. Now that D'Arcy can't make the wider training squad even with Luke Marshall and Stuart Olding both unavailable, that must be it for his international career no?

Wouldn't say that's at all an inevitability yet, Notch.

Schmidt is still teaching his ways to as many Irish players as possible.  You might say he certainly doesn't feel he needs D'Arcy for winning 6N games.  But I wouldn't second guess him yet on whether D'Arcy would be part of the WC squad.  There is still that adage that it's 'experienced' teams that go all the way.  Schmidt will be conscious that youthful nerves will undoubtedly grow towards the 6N and depending on which old heads he might have to call on or not (due to unforeseen injuries) D'Arcy might still end up an invaluable older head in camp.

Notch wrote:Ireland name a 36-man training squad for rounds 4 and 5 without Gordon D'Arcy. Now that D'Arcy can't make the wider training squad even with Luke Marshall and Stuart Olding both unavailable, that must be it for his international career no?

Well he's definitely not on the inner circle anymore - might be Joe is just looking at a few others as he knows what D'arcy can and can't do. He didn't have a great game - bar one flat pass to Teo but man there were some awful performances this weekend.

Gilroy is unlucky - he's arguably the form player in the country right now, even if there is a lot of competition in the back 3.

Gilroy is unfortunate, great going forward at pro12 level, very good steps, spins and changes of pace. Defensively, if he could improve there he would become something special.

I'd have to say that Bent, McCarthy, Dom Ryan and Boss should all count themselves very lucky to be in an extended squad.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Ireland name a 36-man training squad for rounds 4 and 5 without Gordon D'Arcy. Now that D'Arcy can't make the wider training squad even with Luke Marshall and Stuart Olding both unavailable, that must be it for his international career no?

Well he's definitely not on the inner circle anymore - might be Joe is just looking at a few others as he knows what D'arcy can and can't do. He didn't have a great game - bar one flat pass to Teo but man there were some awful performances this weekend.

Gilroy is unlucky - he's arguably the form player in the country right now, even if there is a lot of competition in the back 3.

I'm not picking, rodders - promise.  But I have to ask  - form where?  In a dreadful league (as is being postulated on other threads)?

We keep trying to see form in Pro12 and then get really disappointed when the form player doesn't show nearly the same bang at International.

England are a side currently in a bit of that lull, when their highly valued Club whizzes were turned off at source by a wily old Ireland.  Club form suddenly became what it was - an illusion of grandeur when pressed against hard International tactics.

None of the backs are doing the stuff they'd be expected to do at Provincial level.  It's much more business and pragmatism.  So what extra would Gilroy actually give when we all guess he'd be under pretty clear instructions 'not to'?

In fairness fly, when Gilroy got a chance a few seasons ago he showed he could translate his skills for Ireland - he's in better form than that now, so he can certainly bring an elusiveness that our other players can't, and he's a natural finisher. There are other good players on the left wing but on form he's up there.

We said the same about Zebo, about Fitz, about Madigan, about Earls.... they all had a turn of pace, an explosive kick start, an evasive instinct.....

But they get machinised when they come to Ireland camp, rodders.  Elusiveness is a luxury they have to prove was worth it to Schmidt if it doesn't work in a game.  They all fear that explanation so much that they keep away from Flash.

But didn't Gilroy come up against it sometimes too at International when his more evasionary instincts were frustrated?  I seem to recall those times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you think that Schmidt will move away from the kicking game then Guns or stick with what's working first?

There will be differences. The kick chase plays to our strengths. All our back 3 came from gaelic sports and therefore are all excellent in the air so its likely that this will remain a tactic. It also negates Wales excellent chop tackle and fish for a penalty tactic.

However, as with the game v England there will be backs moves too and set piece moves for the forwards also. None of our backs moves worked v England so no one is talking about them. They were there though and there will be some new tactics introduced for Wales IMO.

Welsh players can rise and take much better than English players so I'm not so sure the kick-chase will be expected to be as lethal.... therefore I'm not sure the stats will reflect another monster kick-chase game from us.

SecretFly wrote:Welsh players can rise and take much better than English players so I'm not so sure the kick-chase will be expected to be as lethal.... therefore I'm not sure the stats will reflect another monster kick-chase game from us.

By Welsh players do you mean 1/2p? The Welsh back three are good but I'm not sure they are that much better than Goode, Watson and Nowell in the air. This tactic was quite successful last year in Dublin. Wales will be expecting it though.

You answered it at the end there.

Gatland was stung. He won't be humiliated twice - if he is, it'll be a shock.

I think the Welsh boys Biggar, shorty Halfpenny look much sharper in the air and have obviously been practicing over and over to limit the traction we might hope to get there.
I'm just not at all certain Joe will look to get much traction there and find instead another weak point to fixate on with repetitive play

SecretFly wrote:You answered it at the end there.

Gatland was stung.  He won't be humiliated twice - if he is, it'll be a shock.

I think the Welsh boys Biggar, shorty Halfpenny look much sharper in the air and have obviously been practicing over and over to limit the traction we might hope to get there.
I'm just not at all certain Joe will look to get much traction there and find instead another weak point to fixate on with repetitive play

That was the 2nd time in a row though that he was humiliated by Ireland.

I know...but he's fuming this time  Something has gotta give.  If he loses again, he'll self detonate.

SecretFly wrote:I know...but he's fuming this time  Something has gotta give.  If he loses again, he'll self detonate.

He will also fall down the Lions management ladder a bit further.

Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I know...but he's fuming this time  Something has gotta give.  If he loses again, he'll self detonate.

He will also fall down the Lions management ladder a bit further.

You think he'll drag his heels over any decisions?

(This is veering towards bad taste )

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

I think Lancaster was in the queue first. Have him.

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

My deepest fear...

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

Hopefully. Good chance of us making a better fist of it that '05 this time around. Though it could hardly be worse. It will be a humdinger anyway.

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

My deepest fear...

Why? I think it would benefit Schmidt. Personally I reckon Conor Murray is as good as he is now because he learned so much from people like Rob Howley and Mike Philips to a lesser extent on the Lions tour. His passing in particular is drastically improved.

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

My deepest fear...

If we win the grand slam and the world cup he can do whatever he wants.

I don't begrudge a coach wanting a go. It's a decent gig on the coaching bucket list I suppose. But in the modern game it's not like a summer tour as it used to be; it's like preparing for a World Cup. Last time Gatland's Lions contract stipulated a year away from Wales. A YEAR!!! That messed us right up.

Don't take our coach again please. He got so much flak last time that I'd be surprised if anyone wanted him again anyway.

Schmidt or Lancaster then. Thanks!

Griff wrote:I don't begrudge a coach wanting a go. It's a decent gig on the coaching bucket list I suppose. But in the modern game it's not like a summer tour as it used to be; it's like preparing for a World Cup. Last time Gatland's Lions contract stipulated a year away from Wales. A YEAR!!! That messed us right up.

Don't take our coach again please. He got so much flak last time that I'd be surprised if anyone wanted him again anyway.

Schmidt or Lancaster then. Thanks!

It didnt really. Did Howley not win you the 6N when Gatland was away?

Any coach who isn't currently coaching a international team would be best for me.

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:I don't begrudge a coach wanting a go. It's a decent gig on the coaching bucket list I suppose. But in the modern game it's not like a summer tour as it used to be; it's like preparing for a World Cup. Last time Gatland's Lions contract stipulated a year away from Wales. A YEAR!!! That messed us right up.

Don't take our coach again please. He got so much flak last time that I'd be surprised if anyone wanted him again anyway.

Schmidt or Lancaster then. Thanks!

It didnt really. Did Howley not win you the 6N when Gatland was away?

Yes, but we then went to Japan under McBryde, lost and dropped to 10th in the world and got the World Cup group of death. Gats would have done better in Japan, IMO.

I'd like Lancaster to get it if he wanted it.  And Schmidt to do the job he was paid to do until he decides he doesn't want it anymore - Ireland.
Better still - a totally neutral coach unattached to any NH side.
Better still - if we're all in, we're all in.  France and Italy should be connected if the thing must survive for those fans who like it.  

The European Lions - coached by Philippe Saint-André

A respected club coach with ambition to go further, or a guy who has done it all and is out the other side.

From the AP you'd be looking at Mallinder, Baxter or COS. Or we go back to SCW

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:I don't begrudge a coach wanting a go. It's a decent gig on the coaching bucket list I suppose. But in the modern game it's not like a summer tour as it used to be; it's like preparing for a World Cup. Last time Gatland's Lions contract stipulated a year away from Wales. A YEAR!!! That messed us right up.

Don't take our coach again please. He got so much flak last time that I'd be surprised if anyone wanted him again anyway.

Schmidt or Lancaster then. Thanks!

It didnt really. Did Howley not win you the 6N when Gatland was away?

Yes, but we then went to Japan under McBryde, lost and dropped to 10th in the world and got the World Cup group of death. Gats would have done better in Japan, IMO.

When you look at how many Wales first team players was on the Lions tour. I am not so sure Gats would have done any better to be honest.

Conor O'Shea

An unbiased leg in two of the four camps.  He turned down Ireland (before being asked), chose Lancaster and preaches the merits of running rugby one week (this weekend) and the beauty of Ireland's kicking boring stuff the week before. Let him have a shot at turning down Jhe Loyans, when asked

But seriously, Lost has it.... No 7&1/2 too.  A no-aligned, non-internationally committed coach.

I'd also make a rule that if the manager was aligned with one of the Lions teams he would be forced to take a captain from a team that he is not aligned with.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:I don't begrudge a coach wanting a go. It's a decent gig on the coaching bucket list I suppose. But in the modern game it's not like a summer tour as it used to be; it's like preparing for a World Cup. Last time Gatland's Lions contract stipulated a year away from Wales. A YEAR!!! That messed us right up.

Don't take our coach again please. He got so much flak last time that I'd be surprised if anyone wanted him again anyway.

Schmidt or Lancaster then. Thanks!

It didnt really. Did Howley not win you the 6N when Gatland was away?

Yes, but we then went to Japan under McBryde, lost and dropped to 10th in the world and got the World Cup group of death. Gats would have done better in Japan, IMO.

When you look at how many Wales first team players was on the Lions tour. I am not so sure Gats would have done any better to be honest.

Well McBryde could have taken the likes of Ryan Jones and Paul James, rather than resting them. That was a bad decision. Remember also that the Lions took away not only our coach for the Japan tour but also our assistant (Howley), our video analyst (Long) our kicking coach (Jenkins) and some of our conditioning staff/physios, etc. They all play an important part in team Wales so I think my point about disruption is valid.

So I'd like that to be one of y'all nations next time instead!

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Good! Schmidt's turn this time.

My deepest fear...

Why? I think it would benefit Schmidt. Personally I reckon Conor Murray is as good as he is now because he learned so much from people like Rob Howley and Mike Philips to a lesser extent on the Lions tour. His passing in particular is drastically improved.

I think it would benefit Schmidt... I think the leading players of our biggest rivals getting an inside view of how we do things and us having to muddle through a year without our head coach would not benefit us. Not to mention any improvement guys from other nations pick up from him in their time on tour. That said, if Schmidt wants the job and is offered it the IRFU would be unwise to jeopardise their relationship with him by standing in his way.

We just have to hope that Schmidt is neither enticed by the challenge of beating the ABs in their back yard nor eager to make a name for himself in his homeland... hmmm. Think we're fecked then!

The Gregor Townsend for Lions Coach bandwagon starts here.

how about removing the Lions squad player selection from the manager? Let the squad be selected by a senior group representing everyone. and then the coach just has to make do with what he is given. Gatland's farcical selection of so many welsh players was inevitable because only they play Gatball, and thats the only game Gatland knows. So he had no choice but to try to pick and then start as many welsh players as possible.

Like I said before anyway.

By the time the Lions comes around, Schmidt might be the coach they're meeting rather than the one they're bringing with them.

SecretFly wrote:Like I said before anyway.

By the time the Lions comes around, Schmidt might be the coach they're meeting rather than the one they're bringing with them.

Hopefully it Gatland.

quinsforever wrote:how about removing the Lions squad player selection from the manager? Let the squad be selected by a senior group representing everyone. and then the coach just has to make do with what he is given. Gatland's farcical selection of so many welsh players was inevitable because only they play Gatball, and thats the only game Gatland knows. So he had no choice but to try to pick and then start as many welsh players as possible.

Nice idea in theory.

One member each in the selector group?

Caution Caution feeling about that one as someone always likes to have the 'casting vote'.

Ideally though, I'm never gone on a committee picking a side for a coach. He's a good coach not just because of tactics but because he has an ability to know what players suit where - even if it means sometimes playing them out of their normal position - which can happen often in a series of games with injuries etc.

quinsforever wrote:how about removing the Lions squad player selection from the manager? Let the squad be selected by a senior group representing everyone. and then the coach just has to make do with what he is given. Gatland's farcical selection of so many welsh players was inevitable because only they play Gatball, and thats the only game Gatland knows. So he had no choice but to try to pick and then start as many welsh players as possible.

Nah that would be even worse.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Like I said before anyway.

By the time the Lions comes around, Schmidt might be the coach they're meeting rather than the one they're bringing with them.

Hopefully it Gatland.

I think Gatland would now have to win the World Cup (not beyond him!) for the ABs to knock him up the ladder of prospectives again.
Schmidt to date doesn't tend to hang around in any one place as coach. So if he went anywhere, I'd most prefer to see him go home and coach his own Nation (he might even do that as an assistant first rather than main guy)

Too early to call the candidates for the next Lions tour, but having won the last series I'd be surprised if Gatland wasn't at least on the shortlist.

Could in fact be a trio of Kiwis: Gatland as head coach, Schmidt in charge of the backs and Cotter in charge of the forwards. Can't see either Cotter or Schmidt agreeing to that mind you!

SecretFly wrote:

I think Gatland would now have to win the World Cup (not beyond him!) for the ABs to knock him up the ladder of prospectives again.
Schmidt to date doesn't tend to hang around in any one place as coach.  So if he went anywhere, I'd most prefer to see him go home and coach his own Nation (he might even do that as an assistant first rather than main guy)

If we do really well at the WC we should do everything in our power to keep him. Here are a few reasonable measures we could take:

Evict Bono and give him his house in Killiney. Much nicer than Churchtown.
Give Schmidt his own county. Louth possibly. No one would miss it.
If a county is not possible then maybe an island. Lambay island has a fairly antipodean feel and is currently occupied by English royals.
Name a stadium after him. Landsdowne is taken so Thomond should take the hit. It would be quite funny too.

quinsforever wrote:how about removing the Lions squad player selection from the manager? Let the squad be selected by a senior group representing everyone. and then the coach just has to make do with what he is given. Gatland's farcical selection of so many welsh players was inevitable because only they play Gatball, and thats the only game Gatland knows. So he had no choice but to try to pick and then start as many welsh players as possible.

Likewise SCW in 05, I think your idea has merit Quins due to fact if a National coach is selected and then gets to pick the squad they will always go with players they know especially in tight calls.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

I think Gatland would now have to win the World Cup (not beyond him!) for the ABs to knock him up the ladder of prospectives again.
Schmidt to date doesn't tend to hang around in any one place as coach.  So if he went anywhere, I'd most prefer to see him go home and coach his own Nation (he might even do that as an assistant first rather than main guy)

If we do really well at the WC we should do everything in our power to keep him. Here are a few reasonable measures we could take:

Evict Bono and give him his house in Killiney. Much nicer than Churchtown.
Give Schmidt his own county. Louth possibly. No one would miss it.
If a county is not possible then maybe an island. Lambay island has a fairly antipodean feel and is currently occupied by English royals.
Name a stadium after him. Landsdowne is taken so Thomond should take the hit. It would be quite funny too.

Oh I'd love him as President of Louth. He could do rugby coaching at the weekend when his handshaking cucumber sandwich duties were over

Well wait until you see history repeat itself when Joe Schmidt picks the Ireland players who are most familiar with his methods. Yes, I agree gents. Lions coaches shouldn't be national coaches who are in situ...

Notch wrote:Well wait until you see history repeat itself when Joe Schmidt picks the Ireland players who are most familiar with his methods. Yes, I agree gents. Lions coaches shouldn't be national coaches who are in situ...

Yeah but then you really are limiting the talent pool to inferior options.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Well wait until you see history repeat itself when Joe Schmidt picks the Ireland players who are most familiar with his methods. Yes, I agree gents. Lions coaches shouldn't be national coaches who are in situ...

Yeah but then you really are limiting the talent pool to inferior options.

Agreed. The obvious benefit of picking an incumbent international coach is that they are familiar with the current challenges of international rugby, and in particular the challenge of facing New Zealand (not something the likes of Mallinder, Townsend etc al will know anything about from a coaching perspective).

The best candidates IMHO, were you picking a coach at the moment, would be Gatland and Schmidt.

The Australian tour proved beyond doubt that the template to be competitive on Lions tours is to pick a national coach who will pick most of his own national team.
Gatland showed that the best chance of success doesn't mean picking the 'best' players but the best team is made up of players who are the most familiar with each other. Of course a few of the elite players from other nations need to drafted in for appearances but familiarity in a team game is far more important than individual skill.

Schmidt knew nothing about International rugby norms when he came in. He had a few months to learn a few basics and went from there. At every occasion he took the opportunity of saying that he was only 'learning' his role - that it was very different.

So I'm not all so sure a Coach with long term International coaching experience is needed for a job that takes a full year to bed down into and prepare for. Plenty of time for a newbie to get his teeth into things and match his instincts to his gameplan to his players.

The Great Aukster wrote:The Australian tour proved beyond doubt that the template to be competitive on Lions tours is to pick a national coach who will pick most of his own national team.
Gatland showed that the best chance of success doesn't mean picking the 'best' players but the best team is made up of players who are the most familiar with each other. Of course a few of the elite players from other nations need to drafted in for appearances but familiarity in a team game is far more important than individual skill.

I do agree up to a point.

A different era but the successful 1997 tour did also throw together successful combinations in the tests from other countries (the backs had an English 9, a Scottish 10, a Welsh 12 and an England 13, with a Welsh 15 who wasn't really a fullback). The front five to the pack also had reps from Ireland, Scotland and England.

Still, I think it's hard to win a tour now, and the run up is intense and truncated. Ultimately a head coach needs to do whatever is necessary to win, and be judged on the outcome of the series.

they might need to change the coach selection criteria after the poopstorm gatland caused. he's a kiwi who ultimately wants to coach the ABs. he couldnt care less who he upsets if his results get him to where he wants to go.

the Lions should never again be coached by someone not British or Irish. all the other coaches may have flaws, but they would definitely have empathy for what the Lions is all about.

quinsforever wrote:they might need to change the coach selection criteria after the poopstorm gatland caused. he's a kiwi who ultimately wants to coach the ABs. he couldnt care less who he upsets if his results get him to where he wants to go.

the Lions should never again be coached by someone not British or Irish. all the other coaches may have flaws, but they would definitely have empathy for what the Lions is all about.

What is better though, a winning Lions series coached by a B&I coach or a losing one coached by a B&I coach?

For me SCW done more to harm the brand of the Lions than any other coach has ever done, whilst Sir Geech has done most out of any to enhamce the Lions.

quinsforever wrote:they might need to change the coach selection criteria after the poopstorm gatland caused. he's a kiwi who ultimately wants to coach the ABs. he couldnt care less who he upsets if his results get him to where he wants to go.

the Lions should never again be coached by someone not British or Irish. all the other coaches may have flaws, but they would definitely have empathy for what the Lions is all about.

Not sure I get your point here Quins. What do you mean by empathy for what the Lions is all about? Do you mean equal representation? This tour was no different from SCWs tour for me, similar approach just easier oppositon for Gats so, luckily, a different outcome. But both heavily favoured their own players.

Also, it's not like this is the first time a non B&I has coached the Lions.