Title Decider 2: Wales v Ireland 14 March

First topic message reminder :


WALES v IRELAND
Saturday 14 March 2015
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Chris Pollock (NZR)
AR2: Federico Anselmi (UAR)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

*****

The bookies are keeping with their earlier predictions of no GS winner above Ireland's chances. And same for the Triple Crown.  Though they have Ireland as favourites in Cardiff but not by much.

Given the distinct love-in that we've had over the last fortnight between Irish and English fans, are Wales now the new 'old enemy'?

Keep it clean folks.

Well a bit anyway.

Ireland team:
15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 13. Jared Payne (Ulster) 12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Replacements: 16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 23. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)

Wales Team: Webb, Roberts, Biggar, North, Williams, Halfpenny, Davies, Jones, Falateau, Warburton, Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee.
Replacements: R Hibbard R Evans A Jarvis , J Ball J Tipuric , M Phillips , R Priestland , S Williams

everyone would have been stuffed by NZ in 2005. doesnt matter who played.

england are often going to have more bodies on a tour of 45 players as England have more pro players. the old strength in depth argument. what matters is how many get selected in the first XV in the Tests.

Griff wrote:

quinsforever wrote:they might need to change the coach selection criteria after the poopstorm gatland caused. he's a kiwi who ultimately wants to coach the ABs. he couldnt care less who he upsets if his results get him to where he wants to go.

the Lions should never again be coached by someone not British or Irish. all the other coaches may have flaws, but they would definitely have empathy for what the Lions is all about.

Not sure I get your point here Quins. What do you mean by empathy for what the Lions is all about? Do you mean equal representation? This tour was no different from SCWs tour for me, similar approach just easier oppositon for Gats so, luckily, a different outcome. But both heavily favoured their own players.

Also, it's not like this is the first time a non B&I has coached the Lions.

yeah, henry worked out really well didnt he. england arguably the number 1 side in world rugby, henry loses the Lions first ever series against Australia.

no more antipodean coaches of the lions please. the incentives and passion are all wrong.

quinsforever wrote:everyone would have been stuffed by NZ in 2005. doesnt matter who played.

england are often going to have more bodies on a tour of 45 players as England have more pro players. the old strength in depth argument. what matters is how many get selected in the first XV in the Tests.

What does that have to do with it? It is rare to take non-current internationals. Actually, the trend is to take 1 non-capped player isn't it? So therefore, Lions selection comes from the 4 international squads, generally. International squad sizes tend to be a similar size so the lions squad will be generally picked from Eng/Ire/Scot/Wal players that are in each of those squads pre-Lions tour (so picking from around 30 or so in each international squad). Not sure how that determines England should have more representation.

quinsforever wrote:

no more antipodean coaches of the lions please. the incentives and passion are all wrong.

Darn tooting, quins.

Lancaster it is.

And I don't mind him picking the majority of English players either - with a handful of Welsh and one Scot. That's fine. That's sorted.

I dont care who the coach is as long as he's B&I. but defintely shouldnt be lancaster though. he's a novice.

Novice?  How long do you have to coach International to still be a novice?  Elite Rugby Director 2008-2011. Senior Coach since 2011.  He knows the rhythms of International well and has a host of assistants around him to delegate his wishes or hear advice from.  The honeymoon is over for him, quins.

No.  He's the one.  The Chosen One!  All Hail Lancaster.

Andy Robinson for me...

Griff wrote:

quinsforever wrote:everyone would have been stuffed by NZ in 2005. doesnt matter who played.

england are often going to have more bodies on a tour of 45 players as England have more pro players. the old strength in depth argument. what matters is how many get selected in the first XV in the Tests.

What does that have to do with it? It is rare to take non-current internationals. Actually, the trend is to take 1 non-capped player isn't it? So therefore, Lions selection comes from the 4 international squads, generally. International squad sizes tend to be a similar size so the lions squad will be generally picked from Eng/Ire/Scot/Wal players that are in each of those squads pre-Lions tour (so picking from around 30 or so in each international squad). Not sure how that determines England should have more representation.

Wasn't that what the Baa Baas always historically done, played on un capped player.

SecretFly wrote:Novice?  How long do you have to coach International to still be a novice?  Elite Rugby Director 2008-2011. Senior Coach since 2011.  He knows the rhythms of International well and has a host of assistants around him to delegate his wishes or hear advice from.  The honeymoon is over for him, quins.

No.  He's the one.  The Chosen One!  All Hail Lancaster.

he was never elite rugby director. that was rob andrew. he has the elite level coaching qualification. at international level he most definitely is a novice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Lancaster_%28rugby_union%29

It's okay then.. He'll learn on the job.....

.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Novice?  How long do you have to coach International to still be a novice?  Elite Rugby Director 2008-2011. Senior Coach since 2011.  He knows the rhythms of International well and has a host of assistants around him to delegate his wishes or hear advice from.  The honeymoon is over for him, quins.

No.  He's the one.  The Chosen One!  All Hail Lancaster.

he was never elite rugby director. that was rob andrew. he has the elite level coaching qualification. at international level he most definitely is a novice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Lancaster_%28rugby_union%29

More experienced than Schmidt though. But I think I'd take Schmidt first. Lancaster would be my 2nd choice.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

quinsforever wrote:everyone would have been stuffed by NZ in 2005. doesnt matter who played.

england are often going to have more bodies on a tour of 45 players as England have more pro players. the old strength in depth argument. what matters is how many get selected in the first XV in the Tests.

What does that have to do with it? It is rare to take non-current internationals. Actually, the trend is to take 1 non-capped player isn't it? So therefore, Lions selection comes from the 4 international squads, generally. International squad sizes tend to be a similar size so the lions squad will be generally picked from Eng/Ire/Scot/Wal players that are in each of those squads pre-Lions tour (so picking from around 30 or so in each international squad). Not sure how that determines England should have more representation.

Wasn't that what the Baa Baas always historically done, played on un capped player.

Thought it was the Lions too?? I remember a discussion a while back before the last tour about how much harder this tradition is becoming because players are getting capped so young, easily and (perhpas) cheaply with all of the international games these days.

I think Greenwood was an uncapped Lions tourist wasn't he? Perhaps the last one? But I think it was a tradition.

Ireland have lost in Cardiff twice in the last 32 years. Are any of the Wales fans confident?

Wales unchanged

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have lost in Cardiff twice in the last 32 years. Are any of the Wales fans confident?

Not as confident as you by the sounds of it Guns.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Novice?  How long do you have to coach International to still be a novice?  Elite Rugby Director 2008-2011. Senior Coach since 2011.  He knows the rhythms of International well and has a host of assistants around him to delegate his wishes or hear advice from.  The honeymoon is over for him, quins.

No.  He's the one.  The Chosen One!  All Hail Lancaster.

he was never elite rugby director. that was rob andrew. he has the elite level coaching qualification. at international level he most definitely is a novice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Lancaster_%28rugby_union%29

Dont forget he also has experience teaching PE.

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have lost in Cardiff twice in the last 32 years. Are any of the Wales fans confident?

Not as confident as you by the sounds of it Guns.

I'm reasonably confident but much less confident than I might be if Barnes wasn't referee. I don't really trust his decision making at all.

Has this site become very 'buggy' in recent weeks or is it just my machine acting up?

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have lost in Cardiff twice in the last 32 years. Are any of the Wales fans confident?

Not as confident as you by the sounds of it Guns.

I'm reasonably confident but much less confident than I might be if Barnes wasn't referee. I don't really trust his decision making at all.

Me neither. So I guess both nations are in the same boat.

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have lost in Cardiff twice in the last 32 years. Are any of the Wales fans confident?

Not as confident as you by the sounds of it Guns.

I'm reasonably confident but much less confident than I might be if Barnes wasn't referee. I don't really trust his decision making at all.

Me neither.  So I guess both nations are in the same boat.

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

As long as players know what to expect it shouldn't be a problem for them though?

"I am knocking him down, sir - see - like that, see.  Then I am removing me mitts from off of his personage, sir - like this, see. Counting One-Two-Three before returning me clutch onto him and hoping he hasn't scored before my doing so.  I am holding his ball............. ball being the singular, sir - and not a finger of me hand is touching surface of the ground............. like that, see sir????"

Oh it's going to be a slow old game!

It would speed the game up to allow players off their feet to seal off the ball and get good fast ball. Doesn't mean it should happen.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as players know what to expect it shouldn't be a problem for them though?

Well it's the first time I've ever seen a ref being as pedantic on the point, and a complete change of technique will be required for some players. I just think it odd when a sequence of events can lead to the opposite decision depending on the ref.

As you say, I'm sure both coaches will have studies that performance from Barnes, because it was eccentric to say the least.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would speed the game up to allow players off their feet to seal off the ball and get good fast ball. Doesn't mean it should happen.

Okay..okay... caulm down, caulm down. Only a joke, only a joke.....

Wales must win and all that crack

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

Touching the ground with your hands does not mean you are not supporting your own weight, there's a big difference between touching and leaning. In fact going beyond the ball is good technique.

That is just pedantic and ridiculous refereeing.

As long as he's consistently pedantic, there's no problem. And surely players should be savvy enough to adapt to the refereeing on the day?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As long as he's consistently pedantic, there's no problem. And surely players should be savvy enough to adapt to the refereeing on the day?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As long as he's consistently pedantic, there's no problem. And surely players should be savvy enough to adapt to the refereeing on the day?

I like the word savvy, not often you get a double v...

Feel free to jump in here people, this topic has legs.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

It isn't really idiosyncratic decisions at the breakdown that annoy me though as long as the ref is consistent. I genuinely believe that Barnes penalises Ireland more than other teams.

Zeebo has two Es? But he's drug free honest.....

Micky Skinner was so called because he rolled the joints for the England rugby team many moons ago.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

It isn't really idiosyncratic decisions at the breakdown that annoy me though as long as the ref is consistent. I genuinely believe that Barnes penalises Ireland more than other teams.

Well that's Ireland's fault for infringing more than anyone else.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Micky Skinner was so called because he rolled the joints for the England rugby team many moons ago.

Well it's just about all you can do on a moonlit night - roll joints and do schit'n'stuff - you certainly can't play that much rugby.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Well that's Ireland's fault for infringing more than anyone else.

Aye. We always were dirty when it came to the dark arts. Long may they go still further without a wash.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

It isn't really idiosyncratic decisions at the breakdown that annoy me though as long as the ref is consistent. I genuinely believe that Barnes penalises Ireland more than other teams.

Well that's Ireland's fault for infringing more than anyone else.

Is it though? Ireland are one of the least penalised teams around.

That's our host of players who do a lot of the 'unseen work' and never get on any teams of the week because of it.

Maybe Barnes is just wise to your ways, while you pull the wool over the eyes of the rest?

GunsGerms wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

It isn't really idiosyncratic decisions at the breakdown that annoy me though as long as the ref is consistent. I genuinely believe that Barnes penalises Ireland more than other teams.

Well that's Ireland's fault for infringing more than anyone else.

Is it though? Ireland are one of the least penalised teams around.

Ah so you admit you have the refs in your pocket then?

SecretFly wrote:That's our host of players who do a lot of the 'unseen work' and never get on any teams of the week because of it.

Its only unseen because everyone (and by everyone I mean Hansen) gets bored and switches off.

Some of these views on Barnes are verging on  tin-foil hat territory.

Griff wrote:Maybe Barnes is just wise to your ways, while you pull the wool over the eyes of the rest?

Maybe so Griff. You just make sure your boys don't pull any wool over the ball. It's the ball that makes us nervous not refs.

Notch wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

Touching the ground with your hands does not mean you are not supporting your own weight, there's a big difference between touching and leaning. In fact going beyond the ball is good technique.

That is just pedantic and ridiculous refereeing.

I entirely agree, and it was basically a cheats charter to hold onto the ball on the floor.

Players should expect refs to be consistent on the day, but they should also be able to expect refs more generally to be consistent. I'm all for players adapting, but they really shouldn't have to, at least not to the extent Barnes was asking on Friday.

Gooseberry wrote:

Ah so you admit you have the refs in your pocket then?

No this Ireland team is very disciplined.

Cyril wrote:Some of these views on Barnes are verging on  tin-foil hat territory.

He's one of those? No wonder we can't communicate with him.

Gooseberry wrote:

SecretFly wrote:That's our host of players who do a lot of the 'unseen work' and never get on any teams of the week because of it.

Its only unseen because everyone (and by everyone I mean Hansen) gets bored and switches off.

Good, that's the effect we look for. Pity Barnes is an insomniac

GunsGerms wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Don't know if either of you saw the Bath vs Sale game on Friday, but Wayne Barnes was at his pedantic best. He was particularly gauche at the breakdown, where he decided to repeatedly penalise both sides for apparently touching the ground with their hands before competing for the ball on the floor. Several incidents which looked cast iron penalties to one side against the other for holding on, were reversed for an extremely technical offence (which the BT Sports commentators disgreed with every time). Reminded me a bit of Chris Pollock in that 1st Lions Test where he penalised BOD for a legitimate challenge for the ball.

Be warned, it's clearly his new "thing", and expect some very odd breakdown decisions as a result unless your players are equally pedentic at emphasising that they are going straight for the ball.

It isn't really idiosyncratic decisions at the breakdown that annoy me though as long as the ref is consistent. I genuinely believe that Barnes penalises Ireland more than other teams.

Well that's Ireland's fault for infringing more than anyone else.

Is it though? Ireland are one of the least penalised teams around.

Sorry, I forgot the smiley.

Forget the smiley. This is war.

The issue is going beyond the ball as it prevents the tackled player from releasing making it easier for the defender buying a pen even though he commiting an offence 1st. Its more refs than Barnes picking up on it.