Title Decider 2: Wales v Ireland 14 March

First topic message reminder :


WALES v IRELAND
Saturday 14 March 2015
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Chris Pollock (NZR)
AR2: Federico Anselmi (UAR)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

*****

The bookies are keeping with their earlier predictions of no GS winner above Ireland's chances. And same for the Triple Crown.  Though they have Ireland as favourites in Cardiff but not by much.

Given the distinct love-in that we've had over the last fortnight between Irish and English fans, are Wales now the new 'old enemy'?

Keep it clean folks.

Well a bit anyway.

Ireland team:
15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 13. Jared Payne (Ulster) 12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Replacements: 16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 23. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)

Wales Team: Webb, Roberts, Biggar, North, Williams, Halfpenny, Davies, Jones, Falateau, Warburton, Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee.
Replacements: R Hibbard R Evans A Jarvis , J Ball J Tipuric , M Phillips , R Priestland , S Williams

Risca Rev wrote:I just saw somebody hinting about Heaslip's superhuman recovery from his injury on twitter, to Walesonline journalist Simon Thomas (@simonrug). Not sure if he's hinting at whether he's surprised how quick he recovered, or whether he was ever really injured in the first place.

[/b]
[/b]So what is being implied here? That Jamie Heaslip decided to fake an injury, miss out on what was (at that time) pretty much the biggest test of the Six Nations, and all for what exactly...to prove a point or to get Pascal Pape banned?

.........................to rest up for Wales of course.

Heaslip knew we'd win against England because Schmidt told him so 10 weeks ago at the yearly Win/Lose/Draw meeting, where Joe announces the games we're going to win, lose or draw for the year ahead.

So Heaslip asked if he could be excused duty for the England game to keep himself as fresh as possible for the Wales game.  He wants to score the three tries Schmidt has him down for but knew he needed a break in between to be sure about it.

Of course Joe said that might be okay but he just couldn't take a sickie for England as the media would be too curious and suspect a rat.  He'd instead have to pretend a big injury and make it look good.

I think the Irish team are members of the Illuminati after all.  Things are too damn slick to be all chance and circumstance.

Well, I suppose if you look at it in that light...the unexpected knee in the back was indeed a glorious opportunity for Heaslip to fake this serious injury...

Whilst yiz are all waiting for the Big Match to start on Saturday at 5pm, here's a question?

Does anyone remember the last time the All Blacks were held scoreless in a test match?  

One man does.  Living in Belfast, he recently celebrated his 90th birthday.  So the BBC went to interview him.  Not just because he remembered it.  But because he was there.   The man in the middle.

The match was a famous one featuring Scotland against New Zealand.   Famous for two reasons - the All Blacks didn't win.  And the other?... well have a listen....

Ray Williams Interview

Oh - and as for that article by Neil Francis in which he says that Gatland has all the intellectual capacity of a tub of Flora?

That's just Francis spreading rumours again.........

Cloggie wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I just saw somebody hinting about Heaslip's superhuman recovery from his injury on twitter, to Walesonline journalist Simon Thomas (@simonrug). Not sure if he's hinting at whether he's surprised how quick he recovered, or whether he was ever really injured in the first place.

So what is being implied here? That Jamie Heaslip decided to fake an injury, miss out on what was (at that time) pretty much the biggest test of the Six Nations, and all for what exactly...to prove a point or to get Pascal Pape banned?

You'll have to ask whoever was posting on twitter, not me. It does seem as if he is hinting at it, because he was asking had anybody seen an x-ray for Heaslip's injury.

I drew out Baldwin to score first try in work . I'm thinking a driving maul , have I any chance

This is certainly going to be a very hard fought and close contest tomorrow. Wales are a team the generally finishes the 6N well and on the back of a good win against France will be full of confidence, especially at home.

Heaslip returning is a huge boost for Ireland and I guess they all know what they are doing but after such an injury, I feel its a risk to play him as the slightest contact in the lower back area may end his game early and potentially cause more issues.

Garath Thomas in his BBC column:

"That means [Ireland] change the way they play most weeks, which makes them very hard to predict, whereas I think Wales are very predictable.
Wales are very difficult to stop, however, even though everybody knows exactly what they're going to do."

I think if that is the case then it's definitely advantage Ireland.

Joe has shown that he is a master of analyzing the opposition and If Wales don't change things up a little for this one they could play right into Ireland's hands.

Is Gatland capable of adjusting things and / or coming up with a Plan B?

Risca Rev wrote:

Cloggie wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I just saw somebody hinting about Heaslip's superhuman recovery from his injury on twitter, to Walesonline journalist Simon Thomas (@simonrug). Not sure if he's hinting at whether he's surprised how quick he recovered, or whether he was ever really injured in the first place.

So what is being implied here? That Jamie Heaslip decided to fake an injury, miss out on what was (at that time) pretty much the biggest test of the Six Nations, and all for what exactly...to prove a point or to get Pascal Pape banned?

You'll have to ask whoever was posting on twitter, not me. It does seem as if he is hinting at it, because he was asking had anybody seen an x-ray for Heaslip's injury.

If we have to see a medical report and x-rays of Heaslip's injury - then I want a whole detailed medical history -plus x-rays of serially injured Warburton

What goes around comes around.  If proof is needed for belief then proof is needed everywhere........

Too lazy to trawl back to seer if this point has been made, but if it has pls forgive this lazy dolt.

We have reason to trust Joe but for the life of me I can't figure out why we have a 23 (Jones) who can realistically only cover one position - full back. On the starting 15, we have 3 players who could take over at FB if anything happened to Kearney - Zebo, Henshaw and Payne, while Madigan on the bench can also stand in at 15. Say Kearney, get's a knock, move Payne to FB, move Bowe into the centre and bring on Earls - Earls has his faults when it comes to distribution but as a finisher he's as good as we have. Don't think Jones can contribute a lot other than from FB.

Only other comment is sympathy for TOD, he's played brilliantly in the past two games and is an unfortunate victim of the strength we have in the back row,

BTW, for what it's worth Torygraph today has done player ratings ahead of the game - Wales 115 Ireland 119

MunsterMac wrote:Garath Thomas in his BBC column:

"That means [Ireland] change the way they play most weeks, which makes them very hard to predict, whereas I think Wales are very predictable.
Wales are very difficult to stop, however, even though everybody knows exactly what they're going to do."

I think if that is the case then it's definitely advantage Ireland.

Joe has shown that he is a master of analyzing the opposition and If Wales don't change things up a little for this one they could play right into Ireland's hands.

Is Gatland capable of adjusting things and / or coming up with a Plan B?

Not directed at you specifically, Mac, but just using your comments to bring up my reading of the situation that keeps growing and growing through Irish media, foreign media and fans.

Joe has mastered the opposition (mostly) until now.  Tomorrow might be different.
And I sometimes think the Godlike status being put on Joe's shoulders is not good for us and certainly not helpful for him.  The only reprieve we have is that it's not us alone in Ireland doing the talk-ups.

But he'll lose eventually.  And Irish fans have to be ready for the day by not buying this media hype of Schmidt so easily.  He's a hard working coach who cuts down the chances of his sides losing by as much as possible on technique and then it's up to individual players on the day to make the technique work.  But even he will be feeling the undue Deification chat about him oppressive and probably increasingly unhelpful.

Let all Irish fans let him be just a good coach.  And let's prepare to back him as much in defeat as victory.  We're on the right track but there will be bumps along the way.

brennomac wrote:

We have reason to trust Joe but for the life of me I can't figure out why we have a 23 (Jones) who can realistically only cover one position - full back.

The only reason I might proffer, brennomac, is that Joe probably doesn't agree with you on Jones' limitations. You are by no means alone in seeing that restriction in Jones but Joe must think different. He must spot the 'seeming' loopholes others see in any bench selections.

SecretFly wrote:

brennomac wrote:

We have reason to trust Joe but for the life of me I can't figure out why we have a 23 (Jones) who can realistically only cover one position - full back.

The only reason I might proffer, brennomac, is that Joe probably doesn't agree with you on Jones' limitations.  You are by no means alone in seeing that restriction in Jones but Joe must think different.  He must spot the 'seeming' loopholes others see in any bench selections.

Jones must train for his life. He has never really had a chance to sparkle for Ireland, at best you can say you don't notice he is on, but in a good way, just slots in and gives a shift. He has been playing well this year, but has he played much on the wing? I don't think so.

I'd say if Gilroy could add some consistency he would take that spot for his versatility, much more dangerous option.

I've had that chat about Gilroy before recently with Rodders.  Again, it's not so much down to what these players get up to in Provinces as much as it is what they are told to do at International.
None of our players (except perhaps for Sexton and Murray) are standing out from the crowd in the 6N.  You only have to look at weekly lists of best players and Irish players aren't exactly stuffing the choices.

But that's tactical.  Zebo doesn't shine at his natural game.  Bowe is contained and admits it.  Payne is playing it very safe and contained.  
So I'm not so certain what the difference would be with Gilroy coming into an Irish side.  He'd be told bluntly to curtail the 'individuality' and offer his "don't notice it" services to the team effort.
It's a non-showboating team - under orders.

Dont think anyone should take Francis seriously. At the most he should be view as comic relief and nothing else really. Same as Stephen Jones. Gatland is clearly a smart cookie and not a tub of flora.

Articles like this may just give him extra impotus to get one over Ireland.

SecretFly wrote:I've had that chat about Gilroy before recently with Rodders.  Again, it's not so much down to what these players get up to in Provinces as much as it is what they are told to do at International.
None of our players (except perhaps for Sexton and Murray) are standing out from the crowd in the 6N.  You only have to look at weekly lists of best players and Irish players aren't exactly stuffing the choices.

But that's tactical.  Zebo doesn't shine at his natural game.  Bowe is contained and admits it.  Payne is playing it very safe and contained.  
So I'm not so certain what the difference would be with Gilroy coming into an Irish side.  He'd be told bluntly to curtail the 'individuality' and offer his "don't notice it" services to the team effort.
It's a non-showboating team - under orders.

I am not sure I agree with this. I think that players should be played in their International positions in their Provinces. Without opening a can of worms again about Payne but I really don't think playing 15 for his Province is the best idea (certainly not good preparation) when playing 13 Internationally.

Francis though has already given Gatland impetus to get one over us. He as much as said all it needs is a little change of style and Wales have it because they are a good side and Gatland has the right attributes to force his personality into the mix.

But of course it's the flora lines that get the headlines in Wales. To be expected. We'd do the same and have done so when Stephen Jones was the writer.

Gilroy will get plenty more caps sooner or later, he just has to wait a few years. Bowe is 31, Trimble is 30- even Earls is 27, McFadden 28, Fitzgerald 27. Players who would be at their peak now but in four years Bowe and Trimble will be retired and those three will be elder statesmen- Gilroy will be 28 and should be at his peak and established in the team along with Zebo going into the 2019 RWC.

Gilroy has got his confidence back recently and he is capable of playing solid high-stakes rugby in defence and attack as well as his more elusive running game, he proved that when he was one of the few players to shine throughout the 2013 Six Nations.

I just think there's too much competition but at some point between the end of this World Cup and the start of the next one we'll start thinking maybe Bowe and Trimble have been around for a while and are getting a bit older... thats when Gilroy will come back into the frame.

Nachos Jones wrote:
I am not sure I agree with this. I think that players should be played in their International positions in their Provinces. Without opening a can of worms again about Payne but I really don't think playing 15 for his Province is the best idea (certainly not good preparation) when playing 13 Internationally.

Well, I'm extremely surprised to hear that you feel this way!

Notch wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
I am not sure I agree with this. I think that players should be played in their International positions in their Provinces. Without opening a can of worms again about Payne but I really don't think playing 15 for his Province is the best idea (certainly not good preparation) when playing 13 Internationally.

Well, I'm extremely surprised to hear that you feel this way!

I have said this all along but have been misquoted from here to Tokyo

I have always said that playing 15 for Ulster makes Payne look more like a 15 when playing for Ireland.

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I've had that chat about Gilroy before recently with Rodders.  Again, it's not so much down to what these players get up to in Provinces as much as it is what they are told to do at International.
None of our players (except perhaps for Sexton and Murray) are standing out from the crowd in the 6N.  You only have to look at weekly lists of best players and Irish players aren't exactly stuffing the choices.

But that's tactical.  Zebo doesn't shine at his natural game.  Bowe is contained and admits it.  Payne is playing it very safe and contained.  
So I'm not so certain what the difference would be with Gilroy coming into an Irish side.  He'd be told bluntly to curtail the 'individuality' and offer his "don't notice it" services to the team effort.
It's a non-showboating team - under orders.

I am not sure I agree with this. I think that players should be played in their International positions in their Provinces. Without opening a can of worms again about Payne but I really don't think playing 15 for his Province is not the best idea (certainly not good preparation) when playing 13 Internationally.

Payne's quality is a by the way.  My point is that it is a well publicised 'secret' coming from Schmidt camp that he values attention to detail slogging over individualised counter attacks or creative flourishes.  If they are genuinely on - he approves.  If not - he dictates the gameplan is adhered to and that is all players assisting in all duties - being where the system needs you to be when you're meant to be there - tackling when you are meant to tackle, not leaving it for someone else as you pre-plan some fancy stuff you might do on the wing if the ball squirts out to you.

Discipline to the gameplans and loyalty to the team effort is what is demanded (so far).  So I'm saying it doesn't matter how buzzy any of the players on the fringes are at Province - it will not dictate how they perform at International.  Different things will be required of them there.  So right now a considered 'workhorse' in Jones is as valuable to Schmidt as a more individually expressive player like Gilroy.

The thing people miss about Joe Schmidts Leinster is they were every bit as structured and drilled as Ireland except nobody complained because the game plan was more expansive. But there is as much flair and creativity in the Ireland team as the Leinster team as all those 'free-flowing, attacking moves' were the result of structures imposed by the coaches or clever set plays.

To be honest, I don't think the Leinster style is something we will see for Ireland. There might be a bit more offloading somewhere down the line but the stakes are such that the onus is on keeping it tight. Irish fans like all fans would be happy to be top of the world playing a structured plan. Rugby is a game now where the higher up it goes the less interesting it is for the neutral to watch anyway

I have a slight concern about what happens when our current plan fails though, do we have a plan B. And while I'm confident Schmidt has that ability to adapt, this weekend is a big test of that. The welsh back three are all very comfortable under the high ball, and while kicking it might work, it is playing the percentages a bit too evenly. Need to see something else.

Anyway, I'm out of here I think until after the game.

Best of luck to both sides - as in hopefully no serious injuries, no concussions and no yellow or red cards to spoil the game for either side.

After that, may the best side win the day


.......................................... and never, ever, ever gloat about it the next day, week, year, decade, century, millennium

Nachos Jones wrote:This is certainly going to be a very hard fought and close contest tomorrow. Wales are a team the generally finishes the 6N well and on the back of a good win against France will be full of confidence, especially at home.

Heaslip returning is a huge boost for Ireland and I guess they all know what they are doing but after such an injury, I feel its a risk to play him as the slightest contact in the lower back area may end his game early and potentially cause more issues.

Here's a link to similar injury to Heaslip. American quarterback Cam Newton. http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/12/cam_newton_comes_back_from_acc.html

He was fine two weeks after the accident

Notch wrote:The thing people miss about Joe Schmidts Leinster is they were every bit as structured and drilled as Ireland except nobody complained because the game plan was more expansive. But there is as much flair and creativity in the Ireland team as the Leinster team as all those 'free-flowing, attacking moves' were the result of structures imposed by the coaches or clever set plays.

Ireland are using plenty of backs moves they just havent clicked yet as defenses in the 6 nations and orgnisation in general is much better. Leinster for a while under Schmidt were possibly better than Ireland.

This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

I would expect it's because this forum is filled with obnoxious, shameless Irish posters who think they are hilarious, yet suffer from a large superiority complex and a gargantuan self awareness disorder.

Zzzzzzzz. You just exposed yourself as a troll by saying that surely no?

I dont think Irish fans are superior to Wales fans but Irish fans are generally superior to you based on that pointless comment.

Clearly.

So Messrs Wood, Francis and Quinlan to varying degrees backing Ireland to win comfortably and doing Gatlands team talk for him...

I have a sneaking suspicion it may come back to bite them in the backside

What did Wood and Quinlan say?

Its not like Stephen Jones and even Gatland himself havent spouted shoite about Ireland on occasion.

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

Still celebrating the overly hyped Regional clean sweep last weekend.

I didn't even realise Stephen Jones the journalist was Welsh til the oother day when someone mentioned it. Whoops!

Wood

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-six-nations-8835646

Quinlan

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-six-nations-8816030

And I completely agree it is usually Gatland talking shoite

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

I would expect it's because this forum is filled with obnoxious, shameless Irish posters who think they are hilarious, yet suffer from a large superiority complex and a gargantuan self awareness disorder.

Well I am grateful that the Welsh team will at least turn up tomorrow and take their customary whipping at the hands of this clearly superior Irish side. In fact I'd go as far to say this is a better team than the overrated Welsh side of the 70's...

Blanko wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:This is certainly going to be a very hard fought and close contest tomorrow. Wales are a team the generally finishes the 6N well and on the back of a good win against France will be full of confidence, especially at home.

Heaslip returning is a huge boost for Ireland and I guess they all know what they are doing but after such an injury, I feel its a risk to play him as the slightest contact in the lower back area may end his game early and potentially cause more issues.

Here's a link to similar injury to Heaslip. American quarterback Cam Newton. http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/12/cam_newton_comes_back_from_acc.html

He was fine two weeks after the accident

Fair enough and as I said, they must all know what they are doing to select him to play. I just get very concerned about rushing players back and I truly hope that he is fine and suffers no re-occurrence.

Risca Rev wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

Still celebrating the overly hyped Regional clean sweep last weekend.

It was a nice coup for Welsh teams. Cant argue with that they all played well and it was nice to see. Connacht were a little robbed though.

GunsGerms wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

Still celebrating the overly hyped Regional clean sweep last weekend.

It was a nice coup for Welsh teams. Cant argue with that they all played well and it was nice to see. Connacht were a little robbed though.

They were more than a little robbed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This just seems like an Ireland thread.

Why are Welsh fans so quiet? Are they off watching Permiership football again?

I would expect it's because this forum is filled with obnoxious, shameless Irish posters who think they are hilarious, yet suffer from a large superiority complex and a gargantuan self awareness disorder.

GavinDragon wrote:So Messrs Wood, Francis and Quinlan to varying degrees backing Ireland to win comfortably and doing Gatlands team talk for him...

I have a sneaking suspicion it may come back to bite them in the backside

If they need some talking head spewing crap in the media to motivate them, then they shouldn't be there. This game is already big enough that they don't need anything from outside to fire them up. They'd be just as fired up even if all the press spent the week before singing their praises.

All that stuff is just to get the fans talking and wound up and clicking on stories and buying papers.

I am sure they dont need media to motivate them, but it will all help

I'm backing Wales to win by 5.

There you go Ireland, that's probably done the trick for you.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm backing Wales to win by 5.

There you go Ireland, that's probably done the trick for you.

Good man yourself there

I reckon Ireland will win by more than two scores. Thats probably the only way we will win anyway.

I thought England would be the toughest match and seen nothing to change my mind. I think Ireland's pack will take the Welsh on up front and that'll be the winning of the game. It won't be as smooth as last year but I can see Ireland chipping away at Wales again. If they strangle Cementball like England did it'll be very hard for Wales to score.

Nachos Jones wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm backing Wales to win by 5.

There you go Ireland, that's probably done the trick for you.

Good man yourself there

This guy predicted that France would thump us...

What are we meant to read into Wales opting for the roof to be kept open?