Title Decider 2: Wales v Ireland 14 March

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WALES v IRELAND
Saturday 14 March 2015
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Chris Pollock (NZR)
AR2: Federico Anselmi (UAR)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

*****

The bookies are keeping with their earlier predictions of no GS winner above Ireland's chances. And same for the Triple Crown.  Though they have Ireland as favourites in Cardiff but not by much.

Given the distinct love-in that we've had over the last fortnight between Irish and English fans, are Wales now the new 'old enemy'?

Keep it clean folks.

Well a bit anyway.

Ireland team:
15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 13. Jared Payne (Ulster) 12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Replacements: 16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 23. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)

Wales Team: Webb, Roberts, Biggar, North, Williams, Halfpenny, Davies, Jones, Falateau, Warburton, Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee.
Replacements: R Hibbard R Evans A Jarvis , J Ball J Tipuric , M Phillips , R Priestland , S Williams

rainbow-warrior wrote: Wales beat you.  The Lions beat Australia with out bod he was not needed.  Well done Mr Gatland.

But rainbow, me auld wumming codger, Ireland didn't need The Lions to beat Australia, Gats did. - and BOD didn't need Gatland to beat Wales the year after - when the guy who was slotted in to end BODs career a second time!!!! ( ) , knocked himself out of the tournament  

Last laugh BOD and career ends on a high rightfully in an Irish shirt and not a red Lions one, and quite some time after Gats intended it to end.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Sin é wrote:Give us a break on Gatland & BOD 2ndtimer - Gatland has wallowed in it as that excuse to cover up his completely Wales biased selections of 10 (would have been 11 players) in the final test against Australia if Warburton was fit.

Why would Gatland be unpoular in Ireland because Ireland didn't renew his contract.  The thing is Gatland has never forgiven us for not renewing his contract. He is the one who has not let that go. Gatland was a very popular coach and Eddie O'Sullivan was blamed for his dismissal. EOS has suffered for that with the Irish public.

He is also the one who came out with the "Welsh hate the Irish' comments. Can you explain what that is all about coming from a coach?

Psst what about that baldy headed Irish guy chatting on TV during the lead up, half time and full time?  He HATES Warran just does not have the balls to say it.  Can you explain why you are posting BS?  Wales beat you.  The Lions beat Australia with out bod he was not needed.  Well done Mr Gatland.

I'd say its more Gats hates Woody , after all, it was Woody (as Ireland Captain at the time) who ensured that Gats didn't get his contract extended with Ireland (and not Eddie O'Sullivan). The reason why Woody didn't think his contract was renewed was because assistant staff had to be forced on him - i.e., I think the Ireland senior players wanted to have a defence coach and Gats wouldn't have one. When Gats went, Ireland hired Mike Ford as Defence Coach. EOS (as a backs coach) was forced on him as well.

Brian Ashton was actually sacked by Ireland and he and us got over it. Did Gats not say that the Welsh hated the Irish? What was that about?

SecretFly wrote:Well, 2nd.
The ref gig as it relates to Pro12 - you have to admit - had you read enough on 606 over the years - that the vast majority of 'team' and 'fanbase' baiting has come from Welsh supporters claiming outright bias by Irish refs - week after week after month after month.  It has been a constant noise on 606 over the years in Pro12 terms.

By one or two...maybe three individuals, that doesn't make it a welsh poster thing. The Irish comment on the refs in the Pro12 just as much, and the Scots do it a lot more often IMO. Yesterday via another social media outlet some rugby fan from Belfast randomly attacked Liam Williams in the aftermath of Ireland's defeat to Wales. Seems to be in line with what usually happens on here after a Scarlets vs Ulster game.

The Saint wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well, 2nd.
The ref gig as it relates to Pro12 - you have to admit - had you read enough on 606 over the years - that the vast majority of 'team' and 'fanbase' baiting has come from Welsh supporters claiming outright bias by Irish refs - week after week after month after month.  It has been a constant noise on 606 over the years in Pro12 terms.

By one or two...maybe three individuals, that doesn't make it a welsh poster thing. The Irish comment on the refs in the Pro12 just as much, and the Scots do it a lot more often IMO. Yesterday via another social media outlet some rugby fan from Belfast randomly attacked Liam Williams in the aftermath of Ireland's defeat to Wales. Seems to be in line with what usually happens on here after a Scarlets vs Ulster game.

Any more than the counter-strikes of barb and bristle makes it all an 'Irish poster thing'.

But that's the way it gets handled because that's how rivalries go.  It doesn't get down to the nitty gritty of individuals isolated for saying one thing and other individuals isolated for shooting back with something else.
It's a collective as forums always are.  Topics become 'tribal' - it's the English against the Welsh or the Irish against the English (in olden times ) It always gets tribal in context.

But do your research - the ref baiting started years ago and it was the Welsh doing it because Irish sides were winning.  If it comes back at them now when Welsh sides are winning, there is no surprise.  
It's a retort that was waiting for its time -  just like the Welsh retort of the retort is to say that 'of course the Irish never complain about refs'.  
So the retorts pile up on top of each other.  That's I guess some of the comical stuff, but also perhaps that's a degree of over-childishness from both sides too.  "Nah, Nah Nah Nah Nah - we're better than yous"
It's natural though.

Sin-e
No it seems he did not say "the Welsh hate the Irish". After just Googling it as I had no idea what you where referring to it seems he actually said "the Wales players disliked the Irish players more than the other 6 nations sides"
Hmm. Nothing like a little artistic license eh.

Wales were good value for their win I thought. They are a strong side and played very well so congrats to them.

I was disappointed with our performance but I think we weren't too far off. I really dislike Wayne Barnes  and still do but we knew he would be Wayne Barnes so having such a slow start was always going to make things really tough so only have ourselves to blame.

Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

2ndtimeround wrote:Sin-e
No it seems he did not say "the Welsh hate the Irish". After just Googling it as I had no idea what you where referring to it seems he actually said "the Wales players disliked the Irish players more than the other 6 nations sides"
Hmm. Nothing like a little artistic license eh.

But he took the Welsh into his fight. His 'fight' with the Irish has always been more personal for reasons outlined by Sin. But no harm done. Gats likes the spice that these kinds of rivalries bring. It's all fair in love and war.

Epic game and thoroughly enjoyed the contest (unlike the Calcutta Cup).

Welsh defence won the day, and too many key Irish players were below par. Barnes as always dominated proceedings with his whistle. It's what you have to expect, sadly.

GunsGerms wrote:
Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

Still on your anti POM crusade I see.

Sexton had a mare, Best had one of his days, Murray was painfully slow, the back 3 (with the slight exception of Bowe but even he wasn't great) made no impact again, SOB clearly is a long way off his best, naturally as he has been out for so long. I'm not saying POM was great but its a funny one to pick out.

The real star of the show was Barnes.

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

Still on your anti POM crusade I see.

Sexton had a mare, Best had one of his days, Murray was painfully slow, the back 3 (with the slight exception of Bowe but even he wasn't great) made no impact again, SOB clearly is a long way off his best, naturally as he has been out for so long. I'm not saying POM was great but its a funny one to pick out.

The real star of the show was Barnes.

To be fair, POM did have a bad game, the whole back row did but that is largely down to SOB and Heaslip looking way off form. Of those POM was the better but he in no means had a good game.

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

Still on your anti POM crusade I see.

Sexton had a mare, Best had one of his days, Murray was painfully slow, the back 3 (with the slight exception of Bowe but even he wasn't great) made no impact again, SOB clearly is a long way off his best, naturally as he has been out for so long. I'm not saying POM was great but its a funny one to pick out.

The real star of the show was Barnes.

Jesus christ get over yourself you moron.

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

Still on your anti POM crusade I see.

Sexton had a mare, Best had one of his days, Murray was painfully slow, the back 3 (with the slight exception of Bowe but even he wasn't great) made no impact again, SOB clearly is a long way off his best, naturally as he has been out for so long. I'm not saying POM was great but its a funny one to pick out.

The real star of the show was Barnes.

Jesus christ get over yourself you moron.

You get over POM. Your crusade is getting embarrassing now.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

profitius wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Pom Best and Sexton all had a bad day but perhaps this loss may have been what we needed. Once again well done Wales.

Still on your anti POM crusade I see.

Sexton had a mare, Best had one of his days, Murray was painfully slow, the back 3 (with the slight exception of Bowe but even he wasn't great) made no impact again, SOB clearly is a long way off his best, naturally as he has been out for so long. I'm not saying POM was great but its a funny one to pick out.

The real star of the show was Barnes.

To be fair, POM did have a bad game, the whole back row did but that is largely down to SOB and Heaslip looking way off form. Of those POM was the better but he in no means had a good game.

He wasn't bad. Wasn't great but he certainly wasn't the problem. Everyone is saying Wales were great and Ireland almost leveled it so the Irish pack can't have been that bad.

Sin é wrote:Did Gats not say that the Welsh hated the Irish? What was that about?

No he didn't. Stop making things up.

profitius wrote:

He wasn't bad. Wasn't great but he certainly wasn't the problem. Everyone is saying Wales were great and Ireland almost leveled it so the Irish pack can't have been that bad.

I didn't think that he played well but that he couldn't play well due to Heaslip and SOB being in the condition they were. Really don't understand Schmidt starting them over Murphy and TOD myself.

Bigger proved he is now better than Sexton

Never thought the day would come where I seen a better Welsh pack than the Irish. Buts that's what has also happened

I thought Wayne Barnes has a good game although he should have told Paul O'Connell to shut up and stop badgering him for penalties

Grand Steffan. We'll see how that all pans out long term

SecretFly wrote:Grand Steffan.  We'll see how that all pans out long term

Well I don't think Wales will win the world cup. Maybe second or third. But we won't win it

It's all very quite quite on whether Henshaw should be cited for dropping the near on Webb, I don't think it was deliberate but then again I didn't think Papes was on Heaslip.

However surely what's good for the goose etc etc, shows the inconsistency of it all.

Well I don't think we will either, Steffan. But we'll have a few more shots at which is best between Ireland and Wales, Sexton and Biggar

bedfordwelsh wrote:It's all very quite quite on whether Henshaw should be cited for dropping the near on Webb, I don't think it was deliberate but then again I didn't think Papes was on Heaslip.

However surely what's good for the goose etc etc, shows the inconsistency of it all.  

So you don't want to make an issue out of it but you're wondering why it's not an issue?

I'd say Pape was an issue because he meant it.

Fly,

Where did I say I want to or not want to make an issue out of it, just surprised more hasn't been made of it. You think Papes was deliberate I didn't at the time and still don't, it's a contact sport after all.

I do however doubt the accuracy of Heaslip suffering 3 broken vertebrae, surely if he had then he wouldn't be back playing so soon.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Fly,

Where did I say I want to or not want to make an issue out of it, just surprised more hasn't been made of it.  You think Papes was deliberate I didn't at the time and still don't, it's a contact sport after all.

I do however doubt the accuracy of Heaslip suffering 3 broken vertebrae, surely if he had then he wouldn't be back playing so soon.

Bedofrd, so Henshaw should get pinged simply because Ireland were being smartassed about Pape and got him pinged?

Either Henshaw was innocent and Pape was innocent or you think one should have been wrongfully penalised because the other was wrongfully penalised?  That's the only thing your 'good for the goose' analogy can mean.

It's trial by vengeance?  Isf Pape should never have been an issue (it should - it was damn well meant) and Henshaw's should not be an issue - you still bring Henshaw's up as an issue.  You raise it - that makes it an issue.

If one gets cited the other should as well, me personally I don't think any of them were deliberate but then I don't view the citings or make the decisions.

Well whatever else the game was it was clearly the most entertaining of the 3 this weekend, I'm currently struggling to stay awake watching Italy v France.

Well whatever else the game was it was clearly the most entertaining of the 3 this weekend, I'm currently struggling to stay awake watching Italy v France.

bedfordwelsh wrote:If one gets cited the other should as well, me personally I don't think any of them were deliberate but then I don't view the citings or make the decisions.

So you're admitting, because Pape was wrongfully penalised you ask for another 'innocent' player to be penalised - most especially an Irish one as 'an eye for an eye' should also be official justice in IRB/World Rugby terms?

Weird logic, bedford. But there you go.

To be fair Fly, I think that he is just asking for consistency myself. Nothing sinister against Ireland. He just feels that if Pape was cited then Henshaw should be cited. I don't agree as Henshaw's looked really accidental but I can also understand if he was to get cited simply to have a closer look at it.

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:If one gets cited the other should as well, me personally I don't think any of them were deliberate but then I don't view the citings or make the decisions.

So you're admitting, because Pape was wrongfully penalised you ask for another 'innocent' player to be penalised - most especially an Irish one as 'an eye for an eye' should also be official justice in IRB/World Rugby terms?

Weird logic, bedford. But there you go.

That seems to be the logic these days though, when you look at the Wales Scotland game very few thought JD should have been cited for his challenge yet the overall view seemed to be that because Russell got binned then so should JD.

Nothing to do with who committed the act more as nachos said consistency,

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:To be fair Fly, I think that he is just asking for consistency myself. Nothing sinister against Ireland. He just feels that if Pape was cited then Henshaw should be cited. I don't agree as Henshaw's looked really accidental but I can also understand if he was to get cited simply to have a closer look at it.

No, it doesn't make sense.  I'm questioning the logic, not the motives of Bedford.  He raises an issue and I think the logic around it is suspect.

What he should be saying is that Barnes and his assistants did the right thing in not pinging Henshaw for an innocent knee.  But he's saying that if Ireland benefitted by getting Pape dropped - we didn't - England will - but he's saying that if Ireland benefitted by Pape getting sidelined then Barnes should have operated on Henshaw.
The trick in bans and yellows is 'Intention'.  I saw intention clearly in Pape's (so did Barnes) and I didn't see intent on Henshaw (neither did Barnes)

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:To be fair Fly, I think that he is just asking for consistency myself. Nothing sinister against Ireland. He just feels that if Pape was cited then Henshaw should be cited. I don't agree as Henshaw's looked really accidental but I can also understand if he was to get cited simply to have a closer look at it.

No, it doesn't make sense.  I'm questioning the logic, not the motives of Bedford.  He raises an issue and I think the logic around it is suspect.

What he should be saying is that Barnes and his assistants did the right thing in not pinging Henshaw for an innocent knee.  But he's saying that if Ireland benefitted by getting Pape dropped - we didn't - England will - but he's saying that if Ireland benefitted by Pape getting sidelined then Barnes should have operated on Henshaw.
The trick in bans and yellows is 'Intention'.  I saw intention clearly in Pape's (so did Barnes) and I didn't see intent on Henshaw (neither did Barnes)

You saw all that in his comment

Got your conspiracy head on today Fly

No you didn't, Nachos.  Not conspiracy.  Reading English.  'What's good for the goose.'  'Why is it not an issue even though it shouldn't be.'

Bedford succeeded in making Henshaw an issue

Nope I read English, I don't usually do conspiracy but I do know how smartly smart people use language.  Where were my other conspiracy theories today btw?

Well personally I didn't really see anything in what he was saying rather that you looked a lot harder to find something.

Maybe I am just not that clever at seeing these things

Well I'm clever because I often use Bedford's own techniques You gotta be as subtle as a fox and yet sting like a bee

Anyway, that's all by the wayside now. Now we know what we have to do - beat the bejaysus out of the poor Scots. And it won't be at all personal - just biz. That or it suddenly becomes a very bad Six Nations.

Out of all of the posters on these boards I would probably put Bedford as one of the least sly, malicious or dastardly posters! If it was Chunky or Saint (sorry pal!), etc. then I might agree. But I think Bedford's post is genuine - Pape's challenge looked fairly innocuous at first to a lot of people (see pages and pages of discussion around it. I.e it wasnt immediately obvious as malicious). I think he's just suggesting that a review needs to be done on the Henshaw challenge too. No harm in that. Really don't think he was questioning Barnes role in this to help England. Jumping to conclusions a bit 'fly

I wouldn't for a minute but Bedford in the same sentence as Chunky!!  Actually don't have enough personal involvement with Saint to make a calling on him - bizarre that considering Saint and myself have been around long enough.
But we all can be spirited in our opinions in a nice but pointed way.  Part of the fun Griff.  I'd say Bedford was being ticklish in a spirited way.  Like I say, all part of the fun

Ticklish! Love it. Good Sunday afternoon/evening language.

The term "consistency" is yet again being bandied about as though it means anything or there is any chance that it can be applied objectively. Every incident is different to the last, with different circumstances and different personnel, so logically there should be NO consistency as that implies that different incidents can be judged using the same criteria rather than their individual merits.

The Great Aukster wrote:The term "consistency" is yet again being bandied about as though it means anything or there is any chance that it can be applied objectively. Every incident is different to the last, with different circumstances and different personnel, so logically there should be NO consistency as that implies that different incidents can be judged using the same criteria rather than their individual merits.

Yes and no really. Yes, in terms of the things you mention. A tip tackle is not the same from one to the other, so I agree that they should be judged individually. But at the same time if they are the same sort of tackles then the punishment must be the same. THAT is the consistency. Giving one player just a penalty against and another a red card is not consistent if the offences are the same. And they can be the same in terms of end result and tackling technique used (or lack thereof).

Another good example is advantage. Playing 1 metre or 1 phase of advantage (some refs) vs playing until the attacking team scores a try or are stopped form doing so, which may involve 15 or more phases! Sometimes it varies from ref to ref, which isn't so bad, but sometimes it varies within the same game. That's a huge issue.

If you actually watch the game now you know the score and take the emotion out of it, Wales looked pretty comfortable.  Only in the 50th minute did Wales look like they could of lost the game, and were never behind Ireland at any point.  Wales never got comfortably ahead, but were not really under immense pressure apart from that one gigantic attack from Ireland.  

Ireland made too many mistakes and didn't create very much.  Sexton also had a very poor game with loads of mistakes.
Wales were worthy winners, Barnes didn't really impact the result, though I still think Sam Warburtons yellow was harsh, especially since Ireland seemed to have more warnings for exactly the same offense prior to the yellow.  Though Scott Baldwins high tackle for Ireland first points was very careless.  

Ireland just didn't turn up and perform. In all honesty Wales, Ireland, France and England are so close together in terms of ability that basically were talking about referees decisions at the end of games because the margins are so tight. Though it's better than England and France being totally dominant and us wondering which team would win the head to head game to be champions.

The use of bonus points would make for an interesting weekend next week:

The table would currently look like this:

England 6 +1 TB = 7
Ireland 6 + 1 LB = 7
Wales 6 + 1LB = 7
France 4 + 2LB = 6
Italy 2 + 0BP = 2
Scotland 0 +3LB = 3

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:How crooked was Mike Phillips' put in at that last scrum?

In fairness that was probably consistent,don't think either side put in straight all day.

76.36 - Welsh scrum, put in "clearly not straight" he said, free kick Ireland. As wonky as the one with a minute to go yet that was allowed.

Sin é wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Why do Ireland have such a large chip on their shoulder about Barnes?

It's so large that it's not just a chip! It's the whole feckin potato!

Barnes should not have been reefing that game today. Its an absolute joke that he was, bearing in mind that his employer had most to gain if Ireland lost.

he's employed by the WRU?

henshaw should get cited, as it was missed by Barnes in real time

50:50 (imo) whether it merits nothing or just the minimum 2 week ban. he did slide in knees first. which even if accidental, is still reckless, as he cant control where or how he impacts Webb with his knees.

Grand ...you go phone the high council of correctness and posture, quins. And also ring in about some high tackles that were let pass.

Anyway, News Just In from CNN at the White House!  

Ireland beat Wales!

Now there's an unusual headline after the week or so we've had  And it took the bloomin' women again to show the lads where their balls should be.  It's embarrassing really.  Does that lad Joe have no shame?

profitius wrote:
You get over POM. Your crusade is getting embarrassing now.

You are embarassing yourself. Point out when one of your personal heros has a bad game and you take it so personally. Do you have any clue how ridiculous and snivelling that is?

I would swap POM for Lydiate in a heartbeat. Lydiate was immense. Certainly on that performance anyway.

Flora:

Gas response from the Western Mail.

We probably deserved that. Wales were very good and Gatland certainly won the battle of wits.

Maybe the Flora was spiked?

quinsforever wrote:henshaw should get cited, as it was missed by Barnes in real time

50:50 (imo) whether it merits nothing or just the minimum 2 week ban. he did slide in knees first. which even if accidental, is still reckless, as he cant control where or how he impacts Webb with his knees.

It looks quite similar to the Lawes incident at the world cup, he copped a two week ban  for that. 
To be honest though it only got noticed at all because of the Pape incident a few weeks ago. Id be surprised if it does get cited, it in no way looked like and intentional kneeing.