Individually, how good is this Irish team?

It seems to have become an article of faith that the current Irish side is winning games through discipline, error-free rugby and a tactical and strategic approach that is somewhere close to genius. The suggestion, implied or spoken outright, is that there are few individual stars in this 'faceless' green machine.

I suggest that this does the players a serious disservice - at least five of the side that beat England (Murray, Sexton, Bowe, O'Connell and Healy) would be in contention for a "best Irish team of the past 50 years" jersey. The crocked Heaslip would similarly be in the running at 8 - that's one hell of a nucleus of outstanding individuals around which to build a team. Seems to me that in the rush to praise the organisation and the collective effort, we shouldn't forget that there are some mighty accomplished players out there.

Murray at this point has improved out of sight from the player he was under Kidney. He is a contender for our best ever SH now. The others you mention are also on that list too I reckon.

Rory Best is also some player but will probably never make all time lists because he is more a grafter than a drop goal specialist like Wood.

I think there are individual stars in the Irish team. I'd add POM to the list in the OP.

Where Ireland has changed though is in depth. Not too long ago, we needed all our 'stars' fit and playing to their max to have a chance. Now it feels more like we have a team. When you think that the back row is there without the options of Henry, Ruddock, etc. When a kid like Jordi can be put in at '8' and the Irish teams doesn't fall apart. TOD can be slotted in. Marty isn't too far behind Ross (though the last game has given people a refresh in the usefulness of Ross). McGrath can slot in for Healy. When the second row of Toner and POC has Tuohy and Henderson behind it as genuine options and Donnacha Ryan (will he ever get back?).

Before you could almost see people/pundits/fans getting the excuse ready (plucky display for 60 minutes and ran out of steam, if [insert key player here] was available they could have competed better, etc.). It feels like we have gone a bit past that now.

Does it matter how good a team is individually...the clues in the name...TEAM.

Ireland are developing very well (and do have some very good individuals)

15 - Very good
14 - Very good
13 - Very Good
12 - Good
11 - Very good
10 - Excellent
9 - Excellent
8 - Very good
7 - Very Good
6 - Very good
5 - Excellent
4 - Good
3 - Very good
2 - Good
1 - Very good

Overall a Very good team of individuals that really epitomises the true meaning of a Gestalt XV

Ah now, Best is definitely one of the top 5 players in this Irish team.

Notch wrote:Ah now, Best is definitely one of the top 5 players in this Irish team.

Would have to agree.

Notch wrote:Ah now, Best is definitely one of the top 5 players in this Irish team.

And Payne is very good whilst Henshaw is 'only' good.

My guess was he got them the wrong way round by accident.

Henshaw is the Very good guy, I can never tell with you guys - Payne is good for a Southern Hemisphere player

Individually how good is a cog in a watch?

Useless

QED

A cog in a watch is worth 2 in a clock

I still wouldn't buy one at auction Ruby

Some good points; would say that while Rory has really lifted again this year, he has suffered the occasional period during which he has lapsed from his normally v. high standards (am thinking especially of that time in the season that shall be forgotten, 2013, from about the second game of the 6N until well after he got back from the Lions tour). Without those, he would challenge Wood undoubtedly as the premier Irish hooker since the mid-60s.

To me, of equal importance along with the depth in some positions is the absence of any position in which Ireland now has to hide the occasional passenger. In years past, whether at full-back, scrum-half, or part of the front row, there might have been the odd player who really wasn't of true international class to be seen in green. Not the case any more.

That's the risk you take Fly but I can see you're boys like to play risk averse rugby. I like that, I'm more of a percentage man myself much like your coach. Now if your team is a finely tuned watch, well constructed with detail at every second of every movement what happens when the cog at 10 and the spring at 9 start to malfunction or become eroded. Will that end in defeat and all the Irish going MadAgain!!!

To outsiders it's a machine that doesn't need players - only Joe and a blackboard.
To us, the lot of them are Gods - except Payne who is Kiwi instead (close enough to God when you think about it)


But really, too much uptalking these guys.  Now is actually the time to downtalk them.  To make them feel small and bitter and full of rage against their own fans.  Now we need them to be in a "We'll f**king show you we're real players - even if it means letting Payne go to the bench!!!"

But let's not over-cuddle these guys in the lead in.  They're Perfection, everyone of them , but let's not let them know it  Keep them hungry to prove themselves.

Someone take the earmuffs off Payne now, I'm finished.

I've just finished reading O'Gara's biography and he suggests the Irish have not got over that 1/4 final defeat to Wales which left a lot of bitterness - That's what they need to hear, "That when it matters Wales go up a gear, that's why they have 3 Grand Slams in a few years and us 1 in 60 years - Now get out there and put that right!!!! - There you go, I've done it for Jo and the boys, easy team talk

Joe's banned that kinda garbage talk. It's now interesting chats about integer numbers that gets their blood up

RubyGuby wrote:I've just finished reading O'Gara's biography and he suggests the Irish have not got over that 1/4 final defeat to Wales which left a lot of bitterness - That's what they need to hear, "That when it matters Wales go up a gear, that's why they have 3 Grand Slams in a few years and us 1 in 60 years - Now get out there and put that right!!!! - There you go, I've done it for Jo and the boys, easy team talk

Tactically Ireland were terrible in that game. We just continued to make the same mistakes over and over again. It was a massacre.

GunsGerms wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I've just finished reading O'Gara's biography and he suggests the Irish have not got over that 1/4 final defeat to Wales which left a lot of bitterness - That's what they need to hear, "That when it matters Wales go up a gear, that's why they have 3 Grand Slams in a few years and us 1 in 60 years - Now get out there and put that right!!!! - There you go, I've done it for Jo and the boys, easy team talk

Tactically Ireland were terrible in that game. We just continued to make the same mistakes over and over again. It was a massacre.

"Here, we'll give it to Ferris and Seanie and everyone just run the supporting lines for them when they get through the first tackle."

Lydiate and Warburton;

Schit!



That's Schmidt's  plan for two weeks time.

Someone better get onto him.

Good question  - I think individually from 2003 - 2009 the team has been better but the ability to use the bench and cover injury is way beyond than even 2 seasons ago.

If I think of the best individual players we've had in the pro era by position only half of Saturdays side would make the cut and some wouldn't be top 5:-

15 Kearney
14 Horgan
13 BOD
12 D'arcy
11 Bowe
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
6 Ferris
7 Wallace
5 POC
4 Toner ?
3 Hayes
2 Wood
1 Healy

Conversly I'd back this side to wipe the floor with most previous Irish sides because they are tougher mentally.

Toner is your lightweight who performs magnificently due to the strength around him. Put him in a shoite side and he'd be dreadful. I may be doing the nice lad a disservice and would be happy to be wrong - Its just how I see it, and I know he did well in that crucial line out steal but he's like POC's son and rising when he needs to.

No I like toner, doesn't look the part but gets through a tonne of work and is deceptively physical. It would be between him and Ryan...Davidson didn't last long enough...maybe O'Kelly...donners was good for a while I suppose..

Probably O'Kelly ahead of Toner at this point but otherwise that looks spot on, Rodders. I was thinking that back in the 80s there was the odd bloke like Hugo MacNeill (and a whole raft of them in the 90s, headed by Captain Saunders), who made me cover my eyes whenever the ball went within metres of them. It's been a while since any Irishman looked blatantly unfit for international duty.

I'd have gone for Geoghegan too but I think comparing the pro and amateur era doesn't work too well.

rodders - your named side would beat the living daylights out of the current Irish bunch....especially if they were allowed the same coaching set up.  No offence meant of course to the current Irish bunch.  And of course some of them have a lot of extra work on their hands, being on both sides at once.

RubyGuby wrote:Toner is your lightweight who performs magnificently due to the strength around him. Put him in a shoite side and he'd be dreadful.

Once upon a time I shared the view. Once upon a time.

Think Geoghegan would have shone in the pro era and he'd replace Shaggy in any "team of the last 25 years". At times looked like the only bloke who had a clue back in the dark days. Mind you, I still daydream about a Gibson/BOD midfield....

Geoghegan was the guy on the edge that nobody ever passed to. That's my memories of him.

Jesus our coaches were good in those days when space was in abundance but brains were in boots.

In any team that are current 6N's champions, has a string of good results and are ranked 3rd in the world, one might expect a few players to rise above mediocre ?

It's not only about "how good" players might be it's also about experience. Ireland were missing a few first choice players on Sunday but still put out a team with 50% more caps than England. In the WC I expect experience will be very important.

Always tricky bracketing players, but I think the following have a place in discussions around best in the world in their respective positions:

Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien and Jonathan Sexton.

Next rung down, strong candidates for the B&I Lions starting XV:

Best, POC, POM, Heaslip, Murray, Zebo, Bowe and Kearney.

The remainder (some of whom, like Henshaw, clearly have potential):

Ross, Toner, Henshaw and Payne.

SecretFly wrote:Geoghegan was the guy on the edge that nobody ever passed to.  That's my memories of him.  

Jesus our coaches were good in those days when space was in abundance but brains were in boots.

Well Murray Kidd didn't know what he was doing, as a coach Ciaran made Andy Robinson look like Joe Schmidt and Ashton was clearly a fifth columnist. Add captains of the calibre of Kingston, Bradley and "massive commitment" Saunders and it's a wonder that we ever won a game.

It's not only about experience, though. Girvan Dempsey manged to get eighty-odd caps and wouldn't get near a squad now. Jeez, MacNeill got 40 if you include his barely believable selection for the Lions. There have been others with far more than their talents deserved. The point is the mix of experience and youth, players who are largely picked on form under this regime and get to stay in situ as long as their performances warrant it. Sounds basic, I know, but it's been a good while coming.

SecretFly wrote:Geoghegan was the guy on the edge that nobody ever passed to.  That's my memories of him.  

Jesus our coaches were good in those days when space was in abundance but brains were in boots.

Was watching that clip of him scoring the try against England, where he skinned Underwood on the outside the other day.... apparantly the Underwoods Mum used to come to every game and every time they scored and the camera would zoom in on her cheering - aledgedly when Geoghegan left Rory for dead and scores in the corner, he hands Underwood the ball and says "I hope your Mum was watching then" .... classic if true!

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Geoghegan was the guy on the edge that nobody ever passed to.  That's my memories of him.  

Jesus our coaches were good in those days when space was in abundance but brains were in boots.

Was watching that clip of him scoring the try against England, where he skinned Underwood on the outside the other day.... apparantly the Underwoods Mum used to come to every game and every time they scored and the camera would zoom in on her cheering - aledgedly when Geoghegan left Rory for dead and scores in the corner, he hands Underwood the ball and says "I hope your Mum was watching then" .... classic if true!

He was a whizz...but boy was he criminally underused.

captain carrantuohil wrote:It's not only about experience, though. Girvan Dempsey manged to get eighty-odd caps and wouldn't get near a squad now. Jeez, MacNeill got 40 if you include his barely believable selection for the Lions. There have been others with far more than their talents deserved. The point is the mix of experience and youth, players who are largely picked on form under this regime and get to stay in situ as long as their performances warrant it. Sounds basic, I know, but it's been a good while coming.

I'm not suggesting individuals should get picked on experience over form, far from it.

What impresses me about Ireland now is that they are a team with a good number of very good players playing well, plus some emerging talent plus a shed load of experience. Add to this a very clever coach who the players clearly respect and you get a winning formula. If all this continues through to the WC, given you could argue Ireland have a less challenging pool than some, I'd have a few quid on them doing well.

In comparison, I'd argue that Wales are also very experienced, but they do not play consistently well, there is less emerging talent (imo) and it does not look to me like they are as well coached. That's why although I will always support Wales, I won't bet on them.

Plus Wales have a harder group obviously.

GunsGerms wrote:Plus Wales have a harder group obviously.

We always have had and we always will.

Wales really dropped the ball when then dropped in the rankings just before the RWC seedings were finalised.

If you're going to win the world cup, the likelihood is always that you'll be asked to play at least two of the very best sides - a least.
So I do not really see the difference between playing them in a Pool and having to wait to play them later on.  There's no honour in losing to them so let's do away with the idea that at least meeting them in a QF or a SF is some level of achievement even if you lose.

No - not really.  It's a loss to a top side and you're gone.

So why wait?  Have a shot at them early.  Maybe they'll be a little rusty.  Maybe not up to full bloody-thirsty speed.  
There's really nothing worth running from in the WC.  You're there to state your claim that you are the best.  Therefore you'll be asked to play the best sooner or later.

SecretFly wrote:If you're going to win the world cup, the likelihood is always that you'll be asked to play at least two of the very best sides - a least.
So I do not really see the difference between playing them in a Pool and having to wait to play them later on.  There's no honour in losing to them so let's do away with the idea that at least meeting them in a QF or a SF is some level of achievement even if you lose.

No - not really.  It's a loss to a top side and you're gone.

So why wait?  Have a shot at them early.  Maybe they'll be a little rusty.  Maybe not up to full bloody-thirsty speed.  
There's really nothing worth running from in the WC.  You're there to state your claim that you are the best.  Therefore you'll be asked to play the best sooner or later.

That's a fair point of view. I never got all the fuss when we came 4th last time. We beat Ireland in a tight game and lost to South Africa, Australia and France. However, if your not playing that well at the start but can get out of the pool, possibilities are there in a one off game. From memory France were rubbish last time all the way to the final - where they could have won.

True, that. If it's possible for a side to lose to Tonga in a pool match and for that same side to come within a kick of winning the whole RWC, or possible for another side to get wiped out by almost 40 in a pool match and rebound to reach a final a few weeks later, we should know by now that predictions are fairly redundant this time. Bound to be something happening that no-one sees coming.

SecretFly wrote:If you're going to win the world cup, the likelihood is always that you'll be asked to play at least two of the very best sides - a least.

Well not really Fly, England managed to avoid SA and NZ in 2003. Talk about luck!

England did beat SA 25:6 in the pool game - but you're right they were very lucky.

How good they are individually is neither here nor there, that they are superb as a team in a team game is everything. The one player whose individual skills does deserve to be highlighted is Sexton, IMO the world's best 10 at the moment and the reason Ireland are oft called a one man team. If sides continue to think that way then they are fools. Ireland have discovered what England can only dream about, a world class tactician with the ability to lead his team into a mindset that allows them to maximise their individual skillsets in support of the team orders. For me, the Irish have every chance at RWC.

I agree with Gwlad, Sexton has to be the best 10 in the World right now and whilst Murray might not be the best 9 I would think the are pretty much the best pairing about at the moment or one of the best.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If you're going to win the world cup, the likelihood is always that you'll be asked to play at least two of the very best sides - a least.

Well not really Fly, England managed to avoid SA and NZ in 2003. Talk about luck!

SA were rubbish in 2003 (and we played them anyway)! We beat France (who had a very good side back there - put 40 past Ireland from memory ) and Australia who themselves had dispatched NZ.

Surprised you guys seem to think Wallace > O'Brien. If SOB is fit he is one of the best players in the world in my opinion. An absolute wrecking ball, but his breakdown work is now also up there with the best. I really hope he gets an injury free run as he is one of my absolute favourite players.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If you're going to win the world cup, the likelihood is always that you'll be asked to play at least two of the very best sides - a least.

Well not really Fly, England managed to avoid SA and NZ in 2003. Talk about luck!

The filled in their waver forms in time. Good lads.