Cardiff Blues vs Connacht

First topic message reminder :

Anyone watching?

Leighton Hodges (as Assistant Referee) gave a pretty dodgy try with a perfect view of it, but the TMO prevailed.

Cardiff Blues: 15 Rhys Patchell, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Cory Allen, 12 Gavin Evans, 11 Joaquin Tuculet, 10 Gareth Anscombe, 9 Lloyd Williams; 1 Sam Hobbs, 2 Kristian Dacey, 3 Taufa'ao Filise, 4 Jarrad Hoeata, 5 Lou Reed, 6 Josh Turnbull, 7 Ellis Jenkins (c), 8 Josh Navidi

Replacements: 16 Matthew Rees, 17 Thomas Davies, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Filo Paulo, 20 Macauley Cook, 21 Tavis Knoyle, 22 Gareth Davies, 23 Tom Isaacs

Connacht:
15 Mils Muliaina, 14 Tiernan O'Halloran, 13 Danie Poolman, 12 Dave McSharry, 11 Matt Healy, 10 Craig Ronaldson, 9 John Cooney; 1 Denis Buckley, 2 Tom McCartney, 3 Rodney Ah You, 4 Mick Kearney, 5 Aly Muldowney, 6 John Muldoon (captain), 7 Jake Heenan, 8 George Naoupu

Replacements:16 Shane Delahunt, 17 Ronan Loughney, 18 Finlay Bealham, 19 Andrew Browne, 20 Eoghan Masterson, 21 Ian Porter, 22 Jack Carty, 23 Darragh Leader

Penfro, if John Lacey was employed by the IRFU then I would agree, but he is not, he is employed by MUNSTER, he even trains with them if Sin é is to be believed. Now for me this would compromise his "neutrality". I am all for refs doing community work and the what not, but actually training with the players that you are supposed to be impartial to is a bit of a stretch, what goes on when they are training ? What are the Munster coaches and players saying to him during these training sessions ? FFS this just confirms certain "conspiracies" for me, none of the Welsh refs are employed by our regions, neither do they go training with them either.

How many other Irish refs are employed by and go training with "their" provinces ?

Nigel goes training............. or did in the past. I know, I've read about it.

SecretFly wrote:Nigel goes training............. or did in the past.  I know, I've read about it.

He doesn't go training with a specified region who he is employed by every week though.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:But, Scarlet, you don't cry for neutral refs when it is a Provincial/Regional game with a Welsh ref.
The cries only happen when the ref is 'Irish' - or Scottish but 'Irish' born.  Meaning his Scottishness wouldn't make him biased, but his Irishness potentially would.  So don't let's try to paint the mood any different now to get us past a conundrum.  

The biggest conundrum this site has faced in relation to Pro12 and refs - is Irish ones; what they do, how they ref, what they might be doing things for, and how they're always there and Welsh teams can't seem to escape them.

That's been by far the biggest issue that relates to Pro12 and reffing.  'Neutrality' of refs is a poor 2nd or even 3rd.

You what??????  I sometimes wonder if you read anything you post, or if you just type and hope that someone somewhere will be able to decipher it.

Point out the stuff you don't 'understand' there, Scarlets. I'll get around to simplifying the language on it for you if you do Meanwhile, keep to the topic and don't try to hit the man. The man is way off target of the topic.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nigel goes training............. or did in the past.  I know, I've read about it.

He doesn't go training with a specified region who he is employed by every week though.

He goes training with Regions? He's Welsh? Grand.

SecretFly wrote:He goes training with Regions?

Where did you here this ? Also, he is not employed by the regions. Unlike the Irish refs who are employed by the provinces, and they are also training with the provinces they are being paid by.

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:when Sin e is defending us, I feel the issue has definitely jumped the shark...

What did I ever do to you?

Wolf sometimes thinks that Irish fans praising Connacht is faint praise. That's the spirit though! He fits right in with the frenzy of distrust of each others intentions that permeates the Provinces. He's a paid up member of Provincialist Parish Pump Ireland.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He goes training with Regions? He's Welsh? Grand.

Where did you here this ? Also, he is not employed by the regions. Unlike the Irish refs who are employed by the provinces, and they are also training with the provinces they are being paid by.

Who pays Nigel and the Welsh boys?

SecretFly wrote:Who pays Nigel and the Welsh boys?.

The WRU pays the Welsh refs, the regions pay the players.

Do the Regions have a relationship with the WRU - testy or not? Yes - a formal one. The WRU pay Nigel, and give some pay-outs to Regions.

Nobody is pristine in the biz of mutual cooperation for mutual gain. The money does a circuit and Nigel gets some of it as it circles.

SecretFly wrote:Do the Regions have a relationship with the WRU - testy or not?  Yes - a formal one.  The WRU pay Nigel, and give some pay-outs to Regions.  

Nobody is pristine in the biz of mutual cooperation for mutual gain.  The money does a circuit and Nigel gets some of it as it circles.

Yet more riddles from you SF. But when you come to the brass balls of it, none of the Welsh refs are in the pockets of the regions, unlike the Irish refs who are not only employed by the provinces, they go training with them and have a daily working relationship with each other, how very convenient.

Okay, okay, Lord.  

The 'neutrality' of all refs issue didn't last too long.  

It's straight back to Irish Refs doing it for themselves.

Scarlet will be glad you cleared up any misunderstanding he was having with my earlier post.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Do the WRU often use officials like Hodges in games involving their home region?

The regions are not like the provinces, we don't have regional refs.  But for example Nigel Owens was born/raised and lives in the Scarlets region, and has been the red in Scarlets games if that is what you mean.  Same with Tim Hayes, and James Jones.  However our win ratio with them as the officials is rather poor, they tend to give 50-50 calls again us to avoid the cries of favouritism.

I don't think the IRFU let any Irish officials participate in any of their home province games, although Ulster do get Paterson who's under the SRU - he's the last name I want to see in the programme. Has Lacey ever been involved officially in a Munster game?

SecretFly wrote:Okay, okay, Lord.  

The 'neutrality' of all refs issue didn't last too long.  

It's straight back to Irish Refs doing it for themselves.

Scarlet will be glad you cleared up any misunderstanding he was having with my earlier post.

SF, you are missing my point. What I am saying is, a ref who is employed by a province, AND goes training with that said province, must have his "nuetrality" comprimised. How can a person be neutral if the one thing he is supposed to be neutral towards not only pays him, but gives him a place of work as well, as soon as you start interacting with players outside of the match, you are compromised as a neutral. Surely you can understand this ?

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:But, Scarlet, you don't cry for neutral refs when it is a Provincial/Regional game with a Welsh ref.
The cries only happen when the ref is 'Irish' - or Scottish but 'Irish' born.  Meaning his Scottishness wouldn't make him biased, but his Irishness potentially would.  So don't let's try to paint the mood any different now to get us past a conundrum.  

The biggest conundrum this site has faced in relation to Pro12 and refs - is Irish ones; what they do, how they ref, what they might be doing things for, and how they're always there and Welsh teams can't seem to escape them.

That's been by far the biggest issue that relates to Pro12 and reffing.  'Neutrality' of refs is a poor 2nd or even 3rd.

You what??????  I sometimes wonder if you read anything you post, or if you just type and hope that someone somewhere will be able to decipher it.

Point out the stuff you don't 'understand' there, Scarlets.  I'll get around to simplifying the language on it for you if you do  Meanwhile, keep to the topic and don't try to hit the man.  The man is way off target of the topic.  

Right here goes.  The points of your post that prompted the 'you what???' comment were as follows

'But, Scarlet, you don't cry for neutral refs when it is a Provincial/Regional game with a Welsh ref.'  - I don't cry neutral ref when we have an Irish ref at regional v provincial games.  I call for 'good' refs, and I feel free to look through all my posts on the issue of neutral refs and you will see that I am not in the camp of neutral refs per ce.

'The cries only happen when the ref is 'Irish' - or Scottish but 'Irish' born.  Meaning his Scottishness wouldn't make him biased, but his Irishness potentially would.  So don't let's try to paint the mood any different now to get us past a conundrum.'   - I don't make that cry at all.  I do call for 'good' refs

'The biggest conundrum this site has faced in relation to Pro12 and refs - is Irish ones; what they do, how they ref, what they might be doing things for, and how they're always there and Welsh teams can't seem to escape them.

That's been by far the biggest issue that relates to Pro12 and reffing.  'Neutrality' of refs is a poor 2nd or even 3rd.'  -  The biggest issue is the poor standards of the officiating full stop, regardless of nationality of the ref/tmo/assistant refs


Also the 'I sometimes wonder if you read anything you post, or if you just type and hope that someone somewhere will be able to decipher it.' comment was prompted by the fact that you appear to have ignored/sidestepped the fact I am not in the 'we need neutral ref' camp, in order to try an pigeon hole me into the Irish-Conspiracy theory camp.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do the Regions have a relationship with the WRU - testy or not?  Yes - a formal one.  The WRU pay Nigel, and give some pay-outs to Regions.  

Nobody is pristine in the biz of mutual cooperation for mutual gain.  The money does a circuit and Nigel gets some of it as it circles.

Yet more riddles from you SF. But when you come to the brass balls of it, none of the Welsh refs are in the pockets of the regions, unlike the Irish refs who are not only employed by the provinces, they go training with them and have a daily working relationship with each other, how very convenient.

There definitely seems to be some issues with people not fully understanding the set-up in Wales. The whole situation of the regions being independent businesses being funded and ran by business men, certainly seems to go unheard by many. It is pretty funny when you think we have had almost a full year of thread trying to explain these things to non-welsh posters.

The Great Aukster wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Do the WRU often use officials like Hodges in games involving their home region?

The regions are not like the provinces, we don't have regional refs.  But for example Nigel Owens was born/raised and lives in the Scarlets region, and has been the red in Scarlets games if that is what you mean.  Same with Tim Hayes, and James Jones.  However our win ratio with them as the officials is rather poor, they tend to give 50-50 calls again us to avoid the cries of favouritism.

I don't think the IRFU let any Irish officials participate in any of their home province games, although Ulster do get Paterson who's under the SRU - he's the last name I want to see in the programme. Has Lacey ever been involved officially in a Munster game?

To be honest I can't remember any Irish ref being in charge of a game featuring their home province. They do have a different set up to the other nations in the Pro12 though. None of the other nations have refs who are affiliated to any of their Pro12 sides, so then what is classed as their home team is far more blurred.

Seeing as Paterson is with the SRU, him being ref for an Ulster game is similar to Steve Walsh being an official in an international game featuring New Zealand, iffy but not technically neutral.

LordDowlais wrote:

SF, you are missing my point. What I am saying is, a ref who is employed by a province, AND goes training with that said province, must have his "nuetrality" comprimised. How can a person be neutral if the one thing he is supposed to be neutral towards not only pays him, but gives him a place of work as well, as soon as you start interacting with players outside of the match, you are compromised as a neutral. Surely you can understand this ?

It doesn't work Lord, as the corollary of that point  is that because Welsh refs aren't paid by the Regions, they are incapable of being biased in favour of their Regional sides.

I don't buy that supposition.  They Are Welsh.  If they are genuine lovers of rugby, they Will have the interests of Welsh Regional success at heart.

Will that make them act on their natural bias?  No - they're professionals.  

But you continue to suggest that Irish refs are 'paid' to throw matches one way or another.  It's an accusation that continues either covertly or overtly.  And I know how Welsh Regional fans would react if that accusation was thrown at their refs over and over and over again - including Nigel!

The contempt for the idea would have this place turn red (blood not Welsh colours ) - You know it, I know it, the mods know it.  Yet, we're meant to just sit back and take it with a pinch of salt and a tap of pepper.  

"Don't get offended, we don't mean to offend you lot - BUT it's just that your refs are probably all crooked, including the 'Scottish fella"

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do the Regions have a relationship with the WRU - testy or not?  Yes - a formal one.  The WRU pay Nigel, and give some pay-outs to Regions.  

Nobody is pristine in the biz of mutual cooperation for mutual gain.  The money does a circuit and Nigel gets some of it as it circles.

Yet more riddles from you SF. But when you come to the brass balls of it, none of the Welsh refs are in the pockets of the regions, unlike the Irish refs who are not only employed by the provinces, they go training with them and have a daily working relationship with each other, how very convenient.

There definitely seems to be some issues with people not fully understanding the set-up in Wales.  The whole situation of the regions being independent businesses being funded and ran by business men, certainly seems to go unheard by many.  It is pretty funny when you think we have had almost a full year of thread trying to explain these things to non-welsh posters.

Do the Regions get paid any money by WRU?  If the answer is Yes then 'NO' they are not 'independent businesses being funded and ran by business men'.  They are partially funded by an 'outside' organisation.  Now that outside organisation in recent months is looking for an even bigger say in the 'running' of those Regions (Central Player Contracts)

So no - in practice, the Regions are tied closely to WRU in certain admin areas.  And Welsh Refs are still Welsh refs regardless of who pays them.  Indeed, suggesting the link is 'money' and not simple 'bias' on the part of the Irish refs is even more serious an accusation - and heading along up the field to being libellous.

Lacey is employed by the IRFU.

In his own words:

John took up refereeing when he retired from playing and is now a respected official on the international circuit, taking charge of some of the top games in world rugby. When did you join Munster? I joined IRFU as a Rugby Development Officer in 1999 based in Munster. What do you do? Player and coach development at all levels, I'm also responsible for Munster Schools Development squads. I work with senior coaches at squad sessions on technical aspects of the game. I also work with players at all levels regarding laws, IRB game changes and trends and referee focus. What is the best part of your job? Players going from development squads all the way to professional contracts and coaches getting through their various IRFU coaching badges and helping them through the process is very rewarding. Also, working with the senior squad at training keeps me sharp for where I need to be and helping the players in any way possible. Most memorable match? As a player, the game which stands out is my first Heineken Cup cap for Munster against Harlequins in London 1998, especially as I scored with Woody playing on the other team!

As a referee, the most memorable game was earlier this year when I took charge of my first Six Nations match earlier this year between Wales and Italy at the Millennium Stadium on the opening weekend of the championship.

Lacey doesn't ref Munster games. Last season, Alan Rolland was allowed ref a Munster v Leinster game before he retired as he had never done one. I think Rolland used to train with Leinster (and obviously, played for them).

Fly, so you are saying that Bath etc are owned by the RFU?

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do the Regions have a relationship with the WRU - testy or not?  Yes - a formal one.  The WRU pay Nigel, and give some pay-outs to Regions.  

Nobody is pristine in the biz of mutual cooperation for mutual gain.  The money does a circuit and Nigel gets some of it as it circles.

Yet more riddles from you SF. But when you come to the brass balls of it, none of the Welsh refs are in the pockets of the regions, unlike the Irish refs who are not only employed by the provinces, they go training with them and have a daily working relationship with each other, how very convenient.

There definitely seems to be some issues with people not fully understanding the set-up in Wales.  The whole situation of the regions being independent businesses being funded and ran by business men, certainly seems to go unheard by many.  It is pretty funny when you think we have had almost a full year of thread trying to explain these things to non-welsh posters.

Do the Regions get paid any money by WRU?  If the answer is Yes then 'NO' they are not 'independent businesses being funded and ran by business men'.  They are partially funded by an 'outside' organisation.  Now that outside organisation in recent months is looking for an even bigger say in the 'running' of those Regions (Central Player Contracts)

So no - in practice, the Regions are tied closely to WRU in certain admin areas.  And Welsh Refs are still Welsh refs regardless of who pays them.  Indeed, suggesting the link is 'money' and not simple 'bias' on the part of the Irish refs is even more serious an accusation - and heading along up the field to being libellous.

Look here Fly, either find somewhere on these boards where I personally have called an Irish ref as bias, or crooked, or drop this cods about he being in this conspiracy theory stuff.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:But, Scarlet, you don't cry for neutral refs when it is a Provincial/Regional game with a Welsh ref.
The cries only happen when the ref is 'Irish' - or Scottish but 'Irish' born.  Meaning his Scottishness wouldn't make him biased, but his Irishness potentially would.  So don't let's try to paint the mood any different now to get us past a conundrum.  

The biggest conundrum this site has faced in relation to Pro12 and refs - is Irish ones; what they do, how they ref, what they might be doing things for, and how they're always there and Welsh teams can't seem to escape them.

That's been by far the biggest issue that relates to Pro12 and reffing.  'Neutrality' of refs is a poor 2nd or even 3rd.

You what??????  I sometimes wonder if you read anything you post, or if you just type and hope that someone somewhere will be able to decipher it.

Point out the stuff you don't 'understand' there, Scarlets.  I'll get around to simplifying the language on it for you if you do  Meanwhile, keep to the topic and don't try to hit the man.  The man is way off target of the topic.  

Right here goes.  The points of your post that prompted the 'you what???' comment were as follows

'But, Scarlet, you don't cry for neutral refs when it is a Provincial/Regional game with a Welsh ref.'  - I don't cry neutral ref when we have an Irish ref at regional v provincial games.  I call for 'good' refs, and I feel free to look through all my posts on the issue of neutral refs and you will see that I am not in the camp of neutral refs per ce.

'The cries only happen when the ref is 'Irish' - or Scottish but 'Irish' born.  Meaning his Scottishness wouldn't make him biased, but his Irishness potentially would.  So don't let's try to paint the mood any different now to get us past a conundrum.'   - I don't make that cry at all.  I do call for 'good' refs

'The biggest conundrum this site has faced in relation to Pro12 and refs - is Irish ones; what they do, how they ref, what they might be doing things for, and how they're always there and Welsh teams can't seem to escape them.

That's been by far the biggest issue that relates to Pro12 and reffing.  'Neutrality' of refs is a poor 2nd or even 3rd.'  -  The biggest issue is the poor standards of the officiating full stop, regardless of nationality of the ref/tmo/assistant refs


Also the 'I sometimes wonder if you read anything you post, or if you just type and hope that someone somewhere will be able to decipher it.' comment was prompted by the fact that you appear to have ignored/sidestepped the fact I am not in the 'we need neutral ref' camp, in order to try an pigeon hole me into the Irish-Conspiracy theory camp.

Since you don't accept that final bolded comment of mine then we're on a different page anyway.  

I insist it is 'biased IRISH refs' that hold sway most on these pages when talking about PRO12 v REFS.  It isn't the 'officiating in general', it isn't the 'overall quality'.  They all form part of the discussion - by far the biggest part always goes to Irish refs doing their usual sly stuff to keep Irish sides winning.

I don't retract that.  

'You' refers to Welsh - not you in the particular.  I hold to all my opinions.  Had the arguments over the last months and indeed years about Irish refs been about Welsh ones instead, not many of us Irish (the few left) would still be here, because we'd have been RED EXCLAMATION marked out of existence for our despised suggestions and vile wummery

SecretFly wrote:'You' refers to Welsh - not you in the particular.  I hold to all my opinions.  Had the arguments over the last months and indeed years about Irish refs been about Welsh ones instead, not many of us Irish (the few left) would still be here, because we'd have been RED EXCLAMATION marked out of existence for our despised suggestions and vile wummery

Ah so you (SecretFly) are generalising about the Welsh when you reply to one of my (ScarletSpiderman) posts using the word 'you', seeing as it was to a post where I (ScarletSpiderman) was pointing out I am not keen on neutral refs, it certainly did appear to me (ScarletSpiderman) that you (SecretFly) were using the word 'you' to me (ScarletSpiderman) as a person, not as a nationality.

You (SecretFly) are correct about how if these threads were on the other foot there would be less Irish posters, the same thing happened over the last year when numerous welsh posters disappeared from this site for similar reasons to do with people wanting the regions to go under, and commenting on situations that they do not grasp, much as you (SecretFly) have in this thread when you refuse (and that is your right I guess) to grasp how the regions are funded and run.

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well you tell me Sin.  I kinda believed that this Pro12 show had someone looking after the bookwork.

Please don't tell me it's a plane with no pilot or navigator.

David Jordan (former CEO of Glasgow Warriors) is Tournament Director.

edit:  It will be interesting to see the make-up of the Disciplinary Panel.

The man actually running the Pro 12 on a day to day basis is the CEO and that is John Feehan, who has the same job with the 6N and B&I Lions, who was involved in the Press Release for the Final of the Pro 12 in Belfast.

John Feehan isn't doing the day-to-day stuff. David Jordan is the Tournament Director and would report to Feehan. There isn't a hope in hell that Feehan would be hands-on with the Pro12, particularly since the 6Ns would be the most important time of the year for him.

Well he (Feehan) found enough time to do the Press Release of the Pro 12 Final to be staged in Ulster, and in previous seasons the welcoming notes in the Programs for Rabo, Guinness or Magners League matches have been done primarily by Jordan with a number by Andy Irvine, this season EVERY single Ospreys home fixture in the Guinness has been done by John Feehan including LAST SATURDAYS against Munster, during the 6N, you really need to cut the crap, you're quite willing to take the plaudits when things go right, when things go wrong, lets blame somebody else, one of you lot tried to blame Gerald Davies about a month or two ago, as he was the Chairman, having taken over from Irvine, it is probable by that time he had only been at one meeting

You think Feehan writes the press releases and match notes while in the middle of the 100m 6Ns tournament which he is also CEO of?

Yes and Yes, he not only wrote the Ulster Final he was right in the middle of it, his was the main name mentioned in papers over here in relation to that decision, Jordan is nowhere to be found, the match programs have updated stuff that could only have been witnessed, unless of course he can see into the future

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly, so you are saying that Bath etc are owned by the RFU?

Now it's time for you to look back on my words.  I've stated quite openly to quins during the big debates last year about Europe that I considered the PRL a union in all but name - the clubs do not exist as exclusively 'independent' entities, they exist under a framework where they combine resources, combine decisions made, combine rules to abide by, combine negotiating rights for TV and AP sponsorhip. The clubs, each individual one, give over a degree of autonomy to the PRL  and receive monies generated from across the board, not just from their own turnstiles.

So yes, I don't believe in the myth that Private Clubs individually control their own destiny any more than Provinces control theirs.  It's a symbiotic relationship of circling money between all the organisations that float around rugby - TV, Sponsors, Regions, WRU, RFU, PRL, IRFU etc

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly, so you are saying that Bath etc are owned by the RFU?

Now it's time for you to look back on my words.  I've stated quite openly to quins during the big debates last year about Europe that I considered the PRL a union in all but name - the clubs do not exist as exclusively 'independent' entities, they exist under a framework where they combine resources, combine decisions made, combine rules to abide by, combine negotiating rights for TV and AP sponsorhip. The clubs, each individual one, give over a degree of autonomy to the PRL  and receive monies generated from across the board, not just from their own turnstiles.

So yes, I don't believe in the myth that Private Clubs individually control their own destiny any more than Provinces control theirs.  It's a symbiotic relationship of circling money between all the organisations that float around rugby - TV, Sponsors, Regions, WRU, RFU, PRL, IRFU etc

But by going by that logic, the unions (include PRL and LNR in there if you wish) are not independent, and they are all just the employees or the IRB, as the IRB does pretty much the same thing with the unions with regards the RWC. Yes I know that is taking it to the extreme, but I can't personally see much of a difference.

Also, very off topic now, would you personally say that village/town clubs are all owned by the union themselves too? I say this because they get 'funded' by the union too.

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well you tell me Sin.  I kinda believed that this Pro12 show had someone looking after the bookwork.

Please don't tell me it's a plane with no pilot or navigator.

David Jordan (former CEO of Glasgow Warriors) is Tournament Director.

edit:  It will be interesting to see the make-up of the Disciplinary Panel.

The man actually running the Pro 12 on a day to day basis is the CEO and that is John Feehan, who has the same job with the 6N and B&I Lions, who was involved in the Press Release for the Final of the Pro 12 in Belfast.

John Feehan isn't doing the day-to-day stuff. David Jordan is the Tournament Director and would report to Feehan. There isn't a hope in hell that Feehan would be hands-on with the Pro12, particularly since the 6Ns would be the most important time of the year for him.

Well he (Feehan) found enough time to do the Press Release of the Pro 12 Final to be staged in Ulster, and in previous seasons the welcoming notes in the Programs for Rabo, Guinness or Magners League matches have been done primarily by Jordan with a number by Andy Irvine, this season EVERY single Ospreys home fixture in the Guinness has been done by John Feehan including LAST SATURDAYS against Munster, during the 6N, you really need to cut the crap, you're quite willing to take the plaudits when things go right, when things go wrong, lets blame somebody else, one of you lot tried to blame Gerald Davies about a month or two ago, as he was the Chairman, having taken over from Irvine, it is probable by that time he had only been at one meeting

You think Feehan writes the press releases and match notes while in the middle of the 100m 6Ns tournament which he is also CEO of?

Yes and Yes, he not only wrote the Ulster Final he was right in the middle of it, his was the main name mentioned in papers over here in relation to that decision, Jordan is nowhere to be found, the match programs have updated stuff that could only have been witnessed, unless of course he can see into the future

Its normal to roll out the CEO for such events. Its like England rolling out the PM to announce something when all the work would have been done by one of his Ministers.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Also, very off topic now, would you personally say that village/town clubs are all owned by the union themselves too?  I say this because they get 'funded' by the union too.

The village/town clubs 'own' the Union. Just like shareholders own a company, not the Board or CEO (unless they are shareholders as well).

Sin é wrote:Its normal to roll out the CEO for such events. Its like England rolling out the PM to announce something when all the work would have been done by one of his Ministers.

Cough, Cough.

Also if the PM is rolled out to announce something, and it goes belly up, it is the PM that takes the public flack for it, not his ministers.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:'You' refers to Welsh - not you in the particular.  I hold to all my opinions.  Had the arguments over the last months and indeed years about Irish refs been about Welsh ones instead, not many of us Irish (the few left) would still be here, because we'd have been RED EXCLAMATION marked out of existence for our despised suggestions and vile wummery

Ah so you (SecretFly) are generalising about the Welsh when you reply to one of my (ScarletSpiderman) posts using the word 'you', seeing as it was to a post where I (ScarletSpiderman) was pointing out I am not keen on neutral refs, it certainly did appear to me (ScarletSpiderman) that you (SecretFly) were using the word 'you' to me (ScarletSpiderman) as a person, not as a nationality.

You (SecretFly) are correct about how if these threads were on the other foot there would be less Irish posters, the same thing happened over the last year when numerous welsh posters disappeared from this site for similar reasons to do with people wanting the regions to go under, and commenting on situations that they do not grasp, much as you (SecretFly) have in this thread when you refuse (and that is your right I guess) to grasp how the regions are funded and run.

You refuse to admit the WRU have a strong interdependent monetary relationship with the Regions.  I say that is not being honest.

But you do admit that had the things currently being alleged, and whispered, and suggested about Irish refs now; had they been about Welsh ones instead, then I and other Irish posters here might be already gone?  

Aren't we very polite all the same in not going for those BAN request buttons.  I prefer battle it out to silly bans............ but it's true, had I been making such claims about Welsh refs, I have no doubts that I'd be already gone.

[quote="Sin é"]

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:Just to add that the car parking incident match took place 2 months ago, this should have either been brought before a Disciplinary Panel or chucked out by now

According to Pat Lam in the Irish Times, they complained to Ed Morrison about the comments Hodges made prior to the Connacht v Edinburgh game and Pat says:  ''They (rugby authorities) agreed that it wasn’t on. Again that’s factual.''

Hodges should not have been let near a Connacht game so soon at a minimum. Looks like Morrison didn't take their complaint seriously.

You love these words don't you, FACTUAL, you're taking Lams word, so basically he (Lam) complained, it was investigated and it was not even worthy of a meeting, so a load of cowpat again.

I'm quoting Lam - that is why that part is in inverted commas. I saw elsewhere (could have been a radio interview) where Lam said that Morrison agreed with him (Lam) that the comments that Hodges made about the points deduction "were not on''.
I don't care who you are quoting, if that were true and Morrison told him that, he (Morrison) would be in trouble as he had done nothing to follow the complaint through, and then compound the issue by putting Hodges as a touch judge for exactly the same team he has a grievance with (Connacht) not 2 months later.
In other words either yourself or Lam is a LIAR, I'm half with you as I've said in numerous posts, Hodges was at fault for the decision to extend the game beyond NO SIDE, but Lam was totally wrong to go about it the way he did, and to me deserves all he gets, and it should be a lot more than a player would get for showing dissent to a Referee.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Also, very off topic now, would you personally say that village/town clubs are all owned by the union themselves too?  I say this because they get 'funded' by the union too.

Nobody that gets paid by someone else can claim the kinds of 'independence' you claim for the Regions. That's what I'm saying. They have a degree of ownership of future but not total ownership as ALL money given to Anyone Always has conditions - spoken or unspoken. Thus the big fight between Regions and WRU last year. Those conditions of bonding are the sticking points.

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:'You' refers to Welsh - not you in the particular.  I hold to all my opinions.  Had the arguments over the last months and indeed years about Irish refs been about Welsh ones instead, not many of us Irish (the few left) would still be here, because we'd have been RED EXCLAMATION marked out of existence for our despised suggestions and vile wummery

Ah so you (SecretFly) are generalising about the Welsh when you reply to one of my (ScarletSpiderman) posts using the word 'you', seeing as it was to a post where I (ScarletSpiderman) was pointing out I am not keen on neutral refs, it certainly did appear to me (ScarletSpiderman) that you (SecretFly) were using the word 'you' to me (ScarletSpiderman) as a person, not as a nationality.

You (SecretFly) are correct about how if these threads were on the other foot there would be less Irish posters, the same thing happened over the last year when numerous welsh posters disappeared from this site for similar reasons to do with people wanting the regions to go under, and commenting on situations that they do not grasp, much as you (SecretFly) have in this thread when you refuse (and that is your right I guess) to grasp how the regions are funded and run.

You refuse to admit the WRU have a strong interdependent monetary relationship with the Regions.  I say that is not being honest.

But you do admit that had the things currently being alleged, and whispered, and suggested about Irish refs now; had they been about Welsh ones instead, then I and other Irish posters here might be already gone?  

Aren't we very polite all the same in not going for those BAN request buttons.  I prefer battle it out to silly bans............ but it's true, had I been making such claims about Welsh refs, I have no doubts that I'd be already gone.

The regions and the WRU are separate entities, but they do both rely on the other to keep themselves in business.  Much like a farmer and a supermarket, without the farmers the supermarket has no product to sell.  But without the supermarket the farmer would be unable to make as much from his produce.  (also being controversial, the supermarket wants to give the farmer as little as possible, without bankrupting them, in order to keep them from climbing up the ladder financially).

I don't think many Irish would be banned if the boot was on the other foot, but I do believe that there would be even fewer Welsh posters on here than there are now.  Also the whole argument is somewhat destructive to both sides, as the mud flinging is pretty much going both ways, with both sides claiming to be innocent.

Also "Nobody that gets paid by someone else can claim the kinds of 'independence' you claim for the Regions. That's what I'm saying. ", surely everyone gains money from providing goods/services to someone else? I can not see how there is any independence at all, for anyone at all, going by the "Nobody that gets paid by someone else can claim the kinds of 'independence' you claim" line

Just to add James Jones was used by the Ospreys in Player, Coach and Referee Development Courses in conjunction with the WRU on many occasions, he is not on the Official List of Referees used by the Guinness League and I don't think he has been for a few years.
I'm with SS on this, it is NOT a National thing it is a Competence thing, how to sort it I don't know, there are supposedly better minds out there, but something HAS to be done.

I see James Jones is a big fan of Paul O'Connell and not so much a fan of Robshaw (because of his whinging to the ref!).

How up to date is Jones though? For instance at the last Rugby World Cup, David Wallace as the only pundit who knew that Allan Rolland's call for the red card was correct and he explained exactly what was wrong with it. Pretty much ever other pundit got it wrong. The reason why Wally knew what he was talking about is that Ireland had coaching sessions from Rolland and he knew how the refs were going to interpret the tackle area.

Alan Quinlan made an interesting comment on Against the Head about it the other night. He said that there should be teams of officials, not some guy turning up in the airport and maybe meeting his officials for the first time. The ref needs to know a bit about how his assistants perform (and how seriously he should take any calls from them). Hodges obvioulsy thought the ref wasn't up to the job the other night, though I seem to recall that same ref doing a very good job in Thomond a few weeks ago.

Sin é wrote:I'm quoting Lam - that is why that part is in inverted commas. I saw elsewhere (could have been a radio interview) where Lam said that Morrison agreed with him (Lam) that the comments that Hodges made about the points deduction "were not on''.

wayne wrote:I don't care who you are quoting, if that were true and Morrison told him that, he (Morrison) would be in trouble as he had done nothing to follow the complaint through, and then compound the issue by putting Hodges as a touch judge for exactly the same team he has a grievance with (Connacht) not 2 months later.

In other words either yourself or Lam is a LIAR, I'm half with you as I've said in numerous posts, Hodges was at fault for the decision to extend the game beyond NO SIDE, but Lam was totally wrong to go about it the way he did, and to me deserves all he gets, and it should be a lot more than a player would get for showing dissent to a Referee.  

Why are we liars? Lam has a lot to lose to be caught out as a liar. And I really would not make up a lie about Morrison agreeing with him that Hodges was out of order making those comments.

In defence of Morrison, I'm not sure there is anyway of censoring Hodges for making that comment, though I do think it was very unwise for Hodges to be involved in a game so soon after his altercation with Connacht. I really hope he is not reffing the MunVConnacht game this weekend.

SecretFly wrote:Do the Regions get paid any money by WRU?

SF the answer is obviously YES, as I suspect you already know, but they do not give the regions this money for a little step up to keep them going, the regions get the money for producing and then supplying players for team Wales, the regions pay the wages of the players, but team Wales pays for the privilege of using said players. But I quietly think you already knew this.

Also, you are still just trying to skirt around what I am saying and trying to be clever as to twist your argument in your favour. The point I am trying to make is, that if a referee is training and working with a province, then he immediately compromises his neutrality, but again I suppose you understand that as well, you are just trying to distort the obvious to counter argue that you are right, but because what is happening in Ireland does not happen anywhere else you are kind of trying to justify the situation. Imagine if Liverpool football club paid Mark Clattenburg's wages and let him train with them, there would be uproar in the premier league, this is a very unique situation, and I find it troubling that a referee can be so close to a team in a league that is supposed to be reffed impartially.

Sin é wrote:

Sin é wrote:I'm quoting Lam - that is why that part is in inverted commas. I saw elsewhere (could have been a radio interview) where Lam said that Morrison agreed with him (Lam) that the comments that Hodges made about the points deduction "were not on''.

wayne wrote:I don't care who you are quoting, if that were true and Morrison told him that, he (Morrison) would be in trouble as he had done nothing to follow the complaint through, and then compound the issue by putting Hodges as a touch judge for exactly the same team he has a grievance with (Connacht) not 2 months later.

In other words either yourself or Lam is a LIAR, I'm half with you as I've said in numerous posts, Hodges was at fault for the decision to extend the game beyond NO SIDE, but Lam was totally wrong to go about it the way he did, and to me deserves all he gets, and it should be a lot more than a player would get for showing dissent to a Referee.  

Why are we liars? Lam has a lot to lose to be caught out as a liar. And I really would not make up a lie about Morrison agreeing with him that Hodges was out of order making those comments.

In defence of Morrison, I'm not sure there is anyway of censoring Hodges for making that comment, though I do think it was very unwise for Hodges to be involved in a game so soon after his altercation with Connacht. I really hope he is not reffing the MunVConnacht game this weekend.

I'm getting tired of this now Sin, because of Morrison supposedly telling Lam what he told him, would he think Lam wouldn't make it public and undermine his position, and then appoint him for the game last Friday, I'm sorry I DON'T believe it.
What would be ironic would be for Hodges to be appointed in the final Connaucht match of the League season, you do know who that is against don't you? Especially if the play offs haven't been settled by then.

Sin é wrote: He said that there should be teams of officials, not some guy turning up in the airport and maybe meeting his officials for the first time. The ref needs to know a bit about how his assistants perform (and how seriously he should take any calls from them).

Do you know what, that is an absolutley brilliant idea and I agree with it 100%. That would make one hell of a difference.

LordDowlais wrote:Penfro, if John Lacey was employed by the IRFU then I would agree, but he is not, he is employed by MUNSTER, he even trains with them if Sin é is to be believed. Now for me this would compromise his "neutrality". I am all for refs doing community work and the what not, but actually training with the players that you are supposed to be impartial to is a bit of a stretch, what goes on when they are training ? What are the Munster coaches and players saying to him during these training sessions ? FFS this just confirms certain "conspiracies" for me, none of the Welsh refs are employed by our regions, neither do they go training with them either.

How many other Irish refs are employed by and go training with "their" provinces ?

As punishment or voluntary?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Penfro, if John Lacey was employed by the IRFU then I would agree, but he is not, he is employed by MUNSTER, he even trains with them if Sin é is to be believed. Now for me this would compromise his "neutrality". I am all for refs doing community work and the what not, but actually training with the players that you are supposed to be impartial to is a bit of a stretch, what goes on when they are training ? What are the Munster coaches and players saying to him during these training sessions ? FFS this just confirms certain "conspiracies" for me, none of the Welsh refs are employed by our regions, neither do they go training with them either.

How many other Irish refs are employed by and go training with "their" provinces ?

As punishment or voluntary?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Penfro, if John Lacey was employed by the IRFU then I would agree, but he is not, he is employed by MUNSTER, he even trains with them if Sin é is to be believed. Now for me this would compromise his "neutrality". I am all for refs doing community work and the what not, but actually training with the players that you are supposed to be impartial to is a bit of a stretch, what goes on when they are training ? What are the Munster coaches and players saying to him during these training sessions ? FFS this just confirms certain "conspiracies" for me, none of the Welsh refs are employed by our regions, neither do they go training with them either.

How many other Irish refs are employed by and go training with "their" provinces ?

As punishment or voluntary?

I can see that as part of their review, "Sorry Bob but you really made a howler for not catching that offside, now here is a pain to brush, go cover up some graffiti"

Just a thought, Sin meantioned teams of officials. How about setting up start of the season 6 sets of officials each comprising of 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Italian and 1 Scot (ref, 2 linesmen and a tmo). That would rule out any national bias, and just leave us all to slate poor decisions for being just that.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote: He said that there should be teams of officials, not some guy turning up in the airport and maybe meeting his officials for the first time. The ref needs to know a bit about how his assistants perform (and how seriously he should take any calls from them).

Do you know what, that is an absolutley brilliant idea and I agree with it 100%. That would make one hell of a difference.

What are yous lads on about now?

A team bus of officials?  A lock'n'load, rapid deploy Seal kind of operation?  Helicopter abseiling officials onto the very field rather than driving into a full carpark and having to deal with smart ass stewards?

Isn't the one shortcoming of the idea that all refs tend to feel important about themselves, and therefore who decides who is an eternal ref assistant on any Swat team and who gets to be the self important eternal ref?

Oh another thing - if you genuinely think that plan would end all talk of atrocious reffing decisions then............................................. then................................... ah forget it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a thought, Sin meantioned teams of officials.  How about setting up start of the season 6 sets of officials each comprising of 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Italian and 1 Scot (ref, 2 linesmen and a tmo).  That would rule out any national bias, and just leave us all to slate poor decisions for being just that.

Good idea. Now which one of those officials actually Refs a Regional/Provincial game? There still gotta be a Ref on the field with a whistle. He'll still get most of the flak, regardless of what nationality his partners in crime are.

But it's something as a beginning I reckon. Might stop all the catfights, but might hinder some of them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a thought, Sin meantioned teams of officials.  How about setting up start of the season 6 sets of officials each comprising of 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Italian and 1 Scot (ref, 2 linesmen and a tmo).  That would rule out any national bias, and just leave us all to slate poor decisions for being just that.

I am all for this, the refs and the linesmen could all rotate, they could all ref one in three, but most of all they could build up a relationship and know where each other needs help the most, but most of all, they would all TRUST each other.

BTW, it's positively eerie that this is the thread getting most posts today by Welsh and Irish posters as the big International coming up has gone all silent on the Western Front......

....spooky.....

Nobody tempting fate there.....

Leave it alone.  Don't jinx it.  Don't upset it.  Brood!!!

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a thought, Sin meantioned teams of officials.  How about setting up start of the season 6 sets of officials each comprising of 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Italian and 1 Scot (ref, 2 linesmen and a tmo).  That would rule out any national bias, and just leave us all to slate poor decisions for being just that.

I am all for this, the refs and the linesmen could all rotate, they could all ref one in three, but most of all they could build up a relationship and know where each other needs help the most, but most of all, they would all TRUST each other.

....all paid direct by the IRFU into a Swiss Bank Account and Bob is your very Uncle! Sure, what would be wrong with it??

Grand. It's perfect. It's settled finally. Let's all Be Friends..

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a thought, Sin meantioned teams of officials.  How about setting up start of the season 6 sets of officials each comprising of 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Italian and 1 Scot (ref, 2 linesmen and a tmo).  That would rule out any national bias, and just leave us all to slate poor decisions for being just that.

I am all for this, the refs and the linesmen could all rotate, they could all ref one in three, but most of all they could build up a relationship and know where each other needs help the most, but most of all, they would all TRUST each other.

....all paid direct by the IRFU into a Swiss Bank Account and Bob is your very Uncle!     Sure, what would be wrong with it??

Grand.  It's perfect.  It's settled finally.  Let's all Be Friends..

Oh, also, I would like to add, to cajoling with the teams involved in the league you are officiating in, that means no training with a particular team, no socialising with a particular team and no cosying up with any particular team.