Scottish Post-England, Pre-Ireland Thread

[Nematode]

So there are quite a few threads on the go at the moment - wooden spoon, sack the coaches, etc... and I just thought it would be good to have one thread for all Scottish fans to post on regarding the aftermath of Saturday and look-ahead to the Irish match (before the proper Scotland vs Ireland thread is put up). Don't really want to be copying and pasting comments onto different threads - my mouse has a tendency to strike if overworked and only resumes with the promise of Mozzarella...

Some discussion points:

- Why has our defence turned into fondue?

- What options do we have for the bench?

- Who has/hasn't performed and should sit out the Ireland game?

- How do we avoid a whitewash against Ireland?

[BigGee]

Some of the defensive issues were due to changes in personnel no doubt. Bennett and Dunbar play together a lot, Scott only came into he team at the very last minute. I think it is only fair to say as well that some of the English line breaks were due to very good play from them. Ford took it right to the line and there were some brilliant lines run off him. They were very good at this, fortunately not quite as good at finishing!

I did not actually feel that any of the Scottish players played that badly. Even Laidlaw had probably his best game of the championship and I don't think there will be many changes other than for injuries and there may well be a few of those.

The biggest worry will be if Matt Scott is not fit. He did miss an important tackle, but showed how good he can be going forward again. Hamilton played well when he was on and showed he is still in the mix for a second row slot and the back row was much better with Denton carrying hard at No.8. I hope the performance of Cowan puts the Barclay debate to bed for now as well. Ashe looked decent when he came on as well, he looks like an international player.

Beating Ireland is easy, we just do what we did yesterday between 15-40 mins for the whole game. If we ever do that we will beat a lot of teams!

[Scottish White Line Fever]

So there are quite a few threads on the go at the moment - wooden spoon, sack the coaches, etc... and I just thought it would be good to have one thread for all Scottish fans to post on regarding the aftermath of Saturday and look-ahead to the Irish match (before the proper Scotland vs Ireland thread is put up). Don't really want to be copying and pasting comments onto different threads - my mouse has a tendency to strike if overworked and only resumes with the promise of Mozzarella...

Some discussion points:

- Why has our defence turned into fondue?

- What options do we have for the bench?

- Who has/hasn't performed and should sit out the Ireland game?

- How do we avoid a whitewash against Ireland?

Is it possible to condense all the threads into one so we don't have to repeat all our gripes on different threads?

[Scottish White Line Fever]

Some of the defensive issues were due to changes in personnel no doubt. Bennett and Dunbar play together a lot, Scott only came into he team at the very last minute. I think it is only fair to say as well that some of the English line breaks were due to very good play from them. Ford took it right to the line and there were some brilliant lines run off him. They were very good at this, fortunately not quite as good at finishing!

I did not actually feel that any of the Scottish players played that badly. Even Laidlaw had probably his best game of the championship and I don't think there will be many changes other than for injuries and there may well be a few of those.

The biggest worry will be if Matt Scott is not fit. He did miss an important tackle, but showed how good he can be going forward again. Hamilton played well when he was on and showed he is still in the mix for a second row slot and the back row was much better with Denton carrying hard at No.8. I hope the performance of Cowan puts the Barclay debate to bed for now as well. Ashe looked decent when he came on as well, he looks like an international player.

Beating Ireland is easy, we just do what we did yesterday between 15-40 mins for the whole game. If we ever do that we will beat a lot of teams!

Judging by VC's comments to the BBC, it's a thigh injury - possibly a dead leg, so hopefully should be fine for next weekend.

[RDW]

Injury update - hopefully they are recoverable

The Scotland medical team provided a squad update following yesterday’s RBS 6 Nations loss to England at Twickenham Stadium.
Centre Matt Scott sustained a bang to his thigh, with the resulting ‘dead leg’ forcing him to be replaced by Greig Tonks after the interval.
Jim Hamilton suffered a back spasm following a collision in the game and was replaced by Tim Swinson as a result.
Tommy Seymour strained his elbow after competing for the ball in the air and Blair Cowan sustained a calf contusion in a separate incident, though both were able to finish the game.
Finally, Alasdair Dickinson, has a leg injury that will require further attention in the early part of the week.
These named players will work with the medical team to ensure a speedy return to training.
A number of other players required the attention of the medical team for soft tissue complaints, but are not currently considered a cause for concern for the next, and final, RBS 6 Nations Championship match.

[BigGee]

You never know with a dead leg, it can be a week or several. Same with Big Jim, but I would not be to upset to see Toolis get some gametime, he deserves it.

If Dickinson not fit, then presumably Grant starts and we will see Sutherland on the bench, which again would not be the worst thing in the world. Euan Murray has definitely put to bed the who is the best TH debate. He definitely still gets up for the big games and hopefully has one more WC in him. He and Nel will be our first choice TH's.

I would still like to see S HC start a game and there is only one more chance for that to happen. Hard to see it happening though, but you do feel at this stage there is nothing to lose.

[SecretFly]

Oh give us a f**king break! We're only drying our eyes from yesterday's humiliation at the hands of Devil Gats and now the Scottish thread is up already???

[Nematode]

So there are quite a few threads on the go at the moment - wooden spoon, sack the coaches, etc... and I just thought it would be good to have one thread for all Scottish fans to post on regarding the aftermath of Saturday and look-ahead to the Irish match (before the proper Scotland vs Ireland thread is put up). Don't really want to be copying and pasting comments onto different threads - my mouse has a tendency to strike if overworked and only resumes with the promise of Mozzarella...

Some discussion points:

- Why has our defence turned into fondue?

- What options do we have for the bench?

- Who has/hasn't performed and should sit out the Ireland game?

- How do we avoid a whitewash against Ireland?

Is it possible to condense all the threads into one so we don't have to repeat all our gripes on different threads?

This is designed to be one thread.

Just watched the Italian players and French running out and, is it just me, or are they all just bigger generally than ours? Also I think Italy deserve a bit of praise - they're focusing on their strength (driving maul) and exploiting it. Maybe we should follow their lead and really just target certain areas of the game vs Ireland (e.g. get the pack focusing most of this week on the maul to try and get a score with it vs Ireland)?

[Scottish White Line Fever]

You never know with a dead leg, it can be a week or several. Same with Big Jim, but I would not be to upset to see Toolis get some gametime, he deserves it.

If Dickinson not fit, then presumably Grant starts and we will see Sutherland on the bench, which again would not be the worst thing in the world. Euan Murray has definitely put to bed the who is the best TH debate. He definitely still gets up for the big games and hopefully has one more WC in him. He and Nel will be our first choice TH's.

I would still like to see S HC start a game and there is only one more chance for that to happen. Hard to see it happening though, but you do feel at this stage there is nothing to lose.

As I said on the other thread, I'd like to see us give some game time to the squad players: particularly SHC, Toolis and Fraser Brown. It might be the right time to give Sutherland a bench spot. I agree that we have nothing to lose, so it's worth giving these guys starts to see what they can offer from the kick-off.

[Scottish White Line Fever]

So there are quite a few threads on the go at the moment - wooden spoon, sack the coaches, etc... and I just thought it would be good to have one thread for all Scottish fans to post on regarding the aftermath of Saturday and look-ahead to the Irish match (before the proper Scotland vs Ireland thread is put up). Don't really want to be copying and pasting comments onto different threads - my mouse has a tendency to strike if overworked and only resumes with the promise of Mozzarella...

Some discussion points:

- Why has our defence turned into fondue?

- What options do we have for the bench?

- Who has/hasn't performed and should sit out the Ireland game?

- How do we avoid a whitewash against Ireland?

Is it possible to condense all the threads into one so we don't have to repeat all our gripes on different threads?

Don't worry I had read that part, but I meant is it possible for all the threads to be consolidated into one single thread, ie, all the comments from all the threads appear in one single thread?

[funnyExiledScot]

It is possible, you just need to be nice to George Carlin and RDW. Try to laugh at their jokes, or in GCs case just say something nice about Ayr. Don't worry, you're not under oath!

[Notch]

What threads would you want to merge? Doesn't seem too necessary to me. Just ignore the other threads and eventually only one will be active.

[Nematode]

Just watching the Scotland A vs England Saxons from last year (YouTube pop-up) for the lineups and 7 of the starting 15 for Scotland A featured in the 23 (6 in the 15) vs England on Saturday. Seems quite a lot when you compare it to the Saxons (none of their team vs Scotland last year featured in the 23).

We do seem to have a fairly large turnover of players, just a shame some that played well in the past - like A. Hogg and Brown, Barclay... - aren't been given a chance when we could do with their expereince.

[Scottish White Line Fever]

What threads would you want to merge? Doesn't seem too necessary to me. Just ignore the other threads and eventually only one will be active.

Fair enough, just leave it! Are Ireland expected to make many changes next week Notch? I had a brief look at one of the Irish threads last night and there was some chat about bringing in Henderson, Cronin and Earls? Obviously it depends how your players pull up over the next few days, but is Schmidt likely to keep faith with the same XV?

From a Scotland perspective, I'd like to see:

1. Dickinson, Grant if Dickinson isn't fit.
2. Fraser Brown (needs a start in a competitive international game pre-WC)
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Toolis (we need to know if he's ready for this level)
6. Harley (I'm not keen on bringing Ashe in for this game given he's only recently returned from injury, although I could be persuaded to shift Cowan into the 6 shirt and bring Watson in at 7)
7. Cowan
8. Denton (thought he was very good for 50 mins yesterday)

9. SHC (same as with Brown and Toolis, particularly important because we have two other 9s in Cusiter and Pyrgos who have featured more at this level. Realistically Laidlaw will start)
10. Russell (hopefully he can get back to the form he showed in France)
11. Seymour
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Fife/Visser (not entirely sure where I stand on this yet)
15. Hogg

16. Ford
17. Grant/Sutherland
18. Cross
19. Hamilton
20. Ashe/Watson
21. Laidlaw
22. Horne
23. Fife/Visser

I appreciate there isn't a great deal of impact on the bench, but it would be able to shore things up if the match starts going terribly or, rather more unlikely, if we're winning going into the last 20.

[thomh]

Just watching the Scotland A vs England Saxons from last year (YouTube pop-up) for the lineups and 7 of the starting 15 for Scotland A featured in the 23 (6 in the 15) vs England on Saturday. Seems quite a lot when you compare it to the Saxons (none of their team vs Scotland last year featured in the 23).  

We do seem to have a fairly large turnover of players, just a shame some that played well in the past - like A. Hogg and Brown, Barclay... - aren't been given a chance when we could do with their expereince.

I'm not sure that can be true in the long term, given that you simply don't have the player numbers of other countries to choose from. I'd say it's more just that Vern Cotter has brought a bunch of new players through in his first year.

[BigGee]

Just watching the Scotland A vs England Saxons from last year (YouTube pop-up) for the lineups and 7 of the starting 15 for Scotland A featured in the 23 (6 in the 15) vs England on Saturday. Seems quite a lot when you compare it to the Saxons (none of their team vs Scotland last year featured in the 23).  

We do seem to have a fairly large turnover of players, just a shame some that played well in the past - like A. Hogg and Brown, Barclay... - aren't been given a chance when we could do with their expereince.

I'm not sure that can be true in the long term, given that you simply don't have the player numbers of other countries to choose from. I'd say it's more just that Vern Cotter has brought a bunch of new players through in his first year.

Yes we are definitely going through a fairly serious stage of rebuilding a team at the moment, hence our lack of experience in terms of numbers of caps. Hopefully it is a policy that will pay dividends for us in the longer term!

[RDW]

Jeezo, there's a few too many threads kicking about just now!

I'm going to stick to this one.

Here's a question to kick off some further debate - if you could choose one player from another 6N team to suddenly become Scottish, who would it be?

For me it would be Paul O'Connoll. We are seriously short of both leadership and a hard edge in the pack - he would provide both in bucketloads.

[SecretFly]

A players from another Nation to suddenly become Scottish?

Hmmmm...................... Pape.

[reallybored]

Honestly not too worried, yes we're staring down the barrel of another spoon but it's hardly a new feeling.

The second 20 was some of the best rugby we've played under Cotter: varied the play well, got over the gain-line and stretched England.  

Unfortunately they used the wind effectively in the 2nd half and kept us pinned in our 22, that said we were still in with a shot of winning with 10 minutes on the clock.

England looked powerful going forward and our first up defence wasn't good enough to prevent them from generating momentum.  Our scramble defence was good though and prevented a couple certain tries, Hoggy probably had his best defensive performance in blue.

On a positive note our tight forward play was pretty good; we possibly shaded the scrum, line-out was fine and we dealt with the driving maul effectively as well as having a couple good drives ourselves.

Shame to loose Scott at half-time, made a couple defensive mistakes but looked positive going forward.  Seymour doesn't look fully fit, possibly in need of a rest before Glasgow's run in.  

Russell had a poor game, we really need him firing on all cylinders if we're to beat the top teams.  Laidlaw was better this week, especially when we were on the front-foot, but too many kicks going too far.

Denton had a good game, put himself about and carried well, plus Ashe looked powerful when he got on.  Bennett showed some flashes in attack.

Hogg and Gray really are class.

What impressed me in the Autumn against the Pumas was the way we dictated the game, our kicking game dominated and as a result we played the game in the right areas.  

IMO it's our tactical kicking game that's letting us down, it's just naive and inviting pressure on ourselves.  It's especially frustrating when you consider the quality of the kickers in the side with Laidlaw, Russell and Hogg.  There's a reason the All Blacks and Ireland kick so much ball, it works.

Plus while England's injuries are repeatedly stated, we were also missing two Lions and one of our best players this season.  

Looking forward towards the RWC, we're not in terrible shape assuming we don't pick up any more serious injuries.  The only area of the pitch I'd still have reservations over is the back-row, I'd love for Brown and Barclay to at least be in the conversation plus Strauss will make a big difference to us with his consistent direct carrying.  Pretty confident we'll have enough to beat Samoa and that'll set up a QF with the winner of England, Wales & Australia ( all of whom are beatable if we play well ).

Next week:

Grant, Ford, Murray, Hamilton, Gray (c), Harley, Cowan, Denton, Hidalgo-Clyne, Russell, Seymour, Scott, Bennett, Maitland, Hogg
- Brown, Dickinson, Cross, Toolis, Ashe, Laidlaw, Tonks

[BamBam]

As an England fan, I thought your chaps were pretty good with ball in hand and at the breakdown.

We seemed to struggle when you were going through the phases, and other than Lawes, no one was making the kind of tackles to stop the Scots dead or knock them back, mainly because our defence wasn't completely in place due to the pace you were putting on the ball.

We also seemed to get turned over whenever we managed to make a line break and didn't fling it away to no one, it seemed to me that your guys were constantly getting there first and our support play was just not good enough

Second half England tightened up, but if Scotland play like they did from mins 20-40 all game long next week, Ireland are in for a tough one IMO

So cheer up

[tigertattie]

i'd love to cheer up bam bam but what is  there to be cheerful for?

Had it not been for hogg at the weekend, we'd have been down a further 21 points!

you can then add another 14 points due to england throwing two needlessly forward passes!

we missed 26 tackles on Sat!!! 26!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we were terrible for the first 20 mins and then terrible for the whole of the 2nd half!

utter garbage

[Weegie Wizard]

For me, the scoreline flattered us and England should have had the game wrapped up before we got our boots on 20 mins in. Hogg was the only one who turned up for the start of the game and deserves huge credit for keeping us interested beyond the 1st quarter - particluarly for the tackle on Brown on the 5m line.

I think we should also mention Laidlaw. He kicked a few times too often but his distribution was back up to the speed we saw in the AIs which was great to see. Unfortunately it coincided with an off game from Russell and meant the first receiver was often a forward when there was space out wide.

The missed tackle count was a shambles. There was a stat given on screen about 10 minutes in and we had already missed about 8 tackles! Where did that ineptitude come from? It seems that we manage to solve one set of problems and a whole new lot turn up uninvited

[MacKnocked-on]

[quote="Nematode"]Just watching the Scotland A vs England Saxons from last year (YouTube pop-up) for the lineups and 7 of the starting 15 for Scotland A featured in the 23 (6 in the 15) vs England on Saturday. Seems quite a lot when you compare it to the Saxons (none of their team vs Scotland last year featured in the 23).  

We do seem to have a fairly large turnover of players, just a shame some that played well in the past - like A. Hogg and Brown, Barclay... - aren't been given a chance when we could do with their expereince.

A real shame we didn't have any A fixtures this season, I feel they have been of excellent benefit to us in recent seasons.

[sensisball]

Our defensive shambles showed that Alex Dunbar is worth is weight in gold.
Our injuries have once again, starkly, shown up that our strength in depth is woeful in some positions.
Russell struggled but Laidlaw's kicking was appalling and put us under massive pressure for the majority of the match.
If Cotter chooses not to try someone else at 9 on Saturday then Ireland will eat up Laidlaw's high balls all day long and we  will be on the end of a real doing, on the scoreboard as well as on the pitch.

Ireland will be really smarting from their Welsh defeat and will know that a big win against us will  be enough to win or finish second in the championship.

If Scott and Russell are unavailable on Saturday then I would like to see SHC and Tonks start at 9 and 10. Unfortunately that would mean Peter Horne at 12, but I think that would be the best option from those left standing.
There is little point in wasting this match in attempting damage limitation, we are going to lose. We may as well find out if the back up players have what it takes ( Unfortunately I don't think Horne does but other than trying out Ritchie Vernon ( who has been playing 13 and not 12 I don't think we have any other centers on the radar!))

Some of the guff coming from Cotter after the match was really disappointing to hear from a man who is supposedly a straight talker.

[TJ]

Jeezo, there's a few too many threads kicking about just now!

I'm going to stick to this one.

Here's a question to kick off some further debate - if you could choose one player from another 6N team to suddenly become Scottish, who would it be?

For me it would be Paul O'Connoll. We are seriously short of both leadership and a hard edge in the pack - he would provide both in bucketloads.

Yup - he is one. Joseph is another. Looked the most dangerous back this weekend

[tigertattie]

Jeezo, there's a few too many threads kicking about just now!

I'm going to stick to this one.

Here's a question to kick off some further debate - if you could choose one player from another 6N team to suddenly become Scottish, who would it be?

For me it would be Paul O'Connoll. We are seriously short of both leadership and a hard edge in the pack - he would provide both in bucketloads.

Yup - he is one.  Joseph is another.  Looked the most dangerous back this weekend

See, I'd not take O'Connell!

I'm not saying he is not a great player but his best days are now behind him! Why take an aging 2nd row player who is likly to retire after the world cup and miss out one of the Gray Bros (if both were fit to play)

If I could only chose one player to come into the Scotland team from elsewhere I'd pick Robshaw! He is a leader and does is own role well!

If I could pick more, I'd have:
Gethen Jenkins
Dan Cole
Peter O'Mahony
Sergio Parrisse
Ben Youngs
George Ford
Wesley Fofana
Jonathon Joseph
George North
Tommy Bowe

The only Scottish players I'd keep would be Ford, the Grays and Hogg

[Cyril]

Jeezo, there's a few too many threads kicking about just now!

I'm going to stick to this one.

Here's a question to kick off some further debate - if you could choose one player from another 6N team to suddenly become Scottish, who would it be?

For me it would be Paul O'Connoll. We are seriously short of both leadership and a hard edge in the pack - he would provide both in bucketloads.

Yup - he is one.  Joseph is another.  Looked the most dangerous back this weekend

See, I'd not take O'Connell!

I'm not saying he is not a great player but his best days are now behind him! Why take an aging 2nd row player who is likly to retire after the world cup and miss out one of the Gray Bros (if both were fit to play)

If I could only chose one player to come into the Scotland team from elsewhere I'd pick Robshaw! He is a leader and does is own role well!

If I could pick more, I'd have:
Gethen Jenkins
Dan Cole
Peter O'Mahony
Sergio Parrisse
Ben Youngs
George Ford
Wesley Fofana
Jonathon Joseph
George North
Tommy Bowe

The only Scottish players I'd keep would be Ford, the Grays and Hogg

You wouldn't pick POC because of his age but you would choose Jenkins! Arguably Parrisse and Bowe are past their best too.

[tigertattie]

Jeezo, there's a few too many threads kicking about just now!

I'm going to stick to this one.

Here's a question to kick off some further debate - if you could choose one player from another 6N team to suddenly become Scottish, who would it be?

For me it would be Paul O'Connoll. We are seriously short of both leadership and a hard edge in the pack - he would provide both in bucketloads.

Yup - he is one.  Joseph is another.  Looked the most dangerous back this weekend

See, I'd not take O'Connell!

I'm not saying he is not a great player but his best days are now behind him! Why take an aging 2nd row player who is likly to retire after the world cup and miss out one of the Gray Bros (if both were fit to play)

If I could only chose one player to come into the Scotland team from elsewhere I'd pick Robshaw! He is a leader and does is own role well!

If I could pick more, I'd have:
Gethen Jenkins
Dan Cole
Peter O'Mahony
Sergio Parrisse
Ben Youngs
George Ford
Wesley Fofana
Jonathon Joseph
George North
Tommy Bowe

The only Scottish players I'd keep would be Ford, the Grays and Hogg

You wouldn't pick POC because of his age but you would choose Jenkins! Arguably Parrisse and Bowe are past their best too.

I'm not picking POC as my ONE pick! I went for Robshaw!

Parisse, Jenkins and Bowe I'd just have if I could have em!

[George Carlin]

It is possible, you just need to be nice to George Carlin and RDW. Try to laugh at their jokes, or in GCs case just say something nice about Ayr. Don't worry, you're not under oath!

I'm waiting....

[RDW]

Well despite Samoa not having played in ages, they've over taken us into 9th spot!


Got to love the rankings!

[SecretFly]

Unfortunately for Scotland, Italy dropped the rankings decent bombshell.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well despite Samoa not having played in ages, they've over taken us into 9th spot!


Got to love the rankings!

Agreed - perhaps we should drop out of international rugby altogether, just to go on an unbeaten run and climb the rankings.

[tigertattie]

Well despite Samoa not having played in ages, they've over taken us into 9th spot!


Got to love the rankings!

Agreed - perhaps we should drop out of international rugby altogether, just to go on an unbeaten run and climb the rankings.

or stop losing to shoite teams like italy and france!

[quinsforever]

thought i would just echo that i also thought denton was great for 50mins yday.

much improved on last year vs england when he kept getting isolated, and was clearly unable to keep a cool head.

i thought he was one of your best players.

if he is always that good, how come beattie is first choice?

[tigertattie]

Beattie isn't!

We're not really sure who is first choice but Denton had been out injured in the previous games!

[funnyExiledScot]

thought i would just echo that i also thought denton was great for 50mins yday.

much improved on last year vs england when he kept getting isolated, and was clearly unable to keep a cool head.

i thought he was one of your best players.

if he is always that good, how come beattie is first choice?

Denton has been injured and that was his return from injury. He is playing far better than Beattie, who has been dreadful this tournament. You're also right to point out the improvement in his ball carrying technique. He's taken a shade of the power in order to improve his body position, and it's made a big difference. He's also been working on his offloading game, which was previously non-existant.

Denton's weakness is still his passing skills/composure. When he breaks through a gap he does a passable impression of Tom Youngs or Luther Burrell.

[thomh]

Daily Mail reckons Visser is coming to Quins. Any Scotland fans mind saying what it is that's happened to his form recently? I've not seen him but have noticed comments that he's badly out of favour.

[RDW]

Daily Mail reckons Visser is coming to Quins. Any Scotland fans mind saying what it is that's happened to his form recently? I've not seen him but have noticed comments that he's badly out of favour.

Being discussed here:

https://www.606v2.com/t57129p750-silly-season-transfer-rumours#2964612

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