State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

beshocked wrote:Don't forget Itoje is young he's improving all the time.

I am sure he's a better player now than he was in that Saxons game. Gaining experience all the time.

More experience can make a huge difference - look at Nowell - one of the worst English performers last season in the 6 nations but now a year on he's a much improved player. When he played he was one of the best to be fair to him.

A player who struggled to score tries but now doesn't have the same issues.

Look at others like Ford and Watson too - a year on, much improved.

Now I know not every player will improve but Itoje is only 20.

I agree with your point on Itoje. He's certainly improving and the sky's the limit at the moment.

lostinwales wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question then....

Do you take Itoje?
And does everyone agree ultimately he'll be a lock...or do you think he'll be a 6.

He'd have to go some, a fair way, to be in the squad proper. He's currently no where near and I'd see Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Parling, Kruis Slater and Kitchener be picked before him. He has the potential to be the best of the lot or close to it and that says a lot given the first 2 names there. As to his position it depends where he or saracens pick, he could be great in either, he'll probably end as a lock though?

Definitely a prospect, but I agree he's not ready. 

In the Saxons game, he got dominated(physically) by Iain Henderson and I hope he took away a few lessons!

Well he got absolutely hammered in one tackle but overall was one of the better England performers

It wasn't just ball carrying I was referring to lost. He was hammered in the rucks and mauls by Henderson too, on 3 occasions from what I can remember. He had a good game overall, but my point is that his physicality needs to reach the level of the rest of his game.

Itoje would be a real bolter if he did go but one thing he has got going for him is versatility being adept at 6.

Lawes, Launchbury and Parling are nailed on as first 3. Ideally we would want a 4th choice to be able to play on the flank.

Attwood, Kruis and Kitchener are solely second rows, I know Kruis played a bit at flank but just isn't quick enough there at Int level.

Slater could offer an option at 6 but has been injured long term.

After that you have Easter as a possibility covering no 8 and second row. However this is an option I really don't like as that 4th lock should be a lock first and foremost IMO. Plus if Morgan is fit he'll be there with Billy V as the two No 8s.

After that it looks like Itoje is the next cab of the rank. It's a very outside bet and personally I wouldn't go for it as I don't feel he's ready. However there is some logic to be seen behind the speculation.

As said I want a second row first and foremost so if fit I'd take Slater as he offers a different option to Lawes, Launchbury and Parling. If he doesn't make it then Attwood is the best bet. He may not have shown everything we wanted from his bulk consistently but he hasn't played terribly either. He has some experience and can lead the line-out, he'd be an asset in a RWC squad IMO.

I'd bet my house on Itoje not making the WC squad, he's way to inexperienced and lacks the physical edge currently that Int rugby brings.

Let the boy develop at Sarries, he's a great prospect who's only going to get better with time.

Wouldn't be my choice but Gaskell is a lock/6 who's been in the Saxons, I wouldn't want him as I feel he's a bit crap but he could be an outsider bet

Oh and itoje should get his chance next summer when others are away with the lions, before that would be silly.

What do people make of the criticism of Wade on twitter by his team mate Andy Goode. Warrented?

Personally I dont think twitter is the place for such criticism amoungst team mates.

With regard to Itoje I would be interested in him playing in the backrow as that would give the backrow a good line-out option - something which is a bit lacking.  As a second rower he is up against some good players, so may need a few years if that is his desired position.

In terms of going to the World Cup, I see at most 4 second rows and 5 back rowers.  In the backrow if all fit: Vunipola, Robshaw, Morgan and probably Wood and Haskell (Easter might be in the mix as well).

In the second row Launchbury, Lawes, Parling and perhaps one of Attwood/Slater/Kruis.

So unless injuries there is not really space.

GunsGerms wrote:What do people make of the criticism of Wade on twitter by his team mate Andy Goode. Warrented?

Personally I dont think twitter is the place for such criticism amoungst team mates.

Bad drills. Would you be better off posting this on the Wasps thread?

king_carlos wrote:Itoje would be a real bolter if he did go but one thing he has got going for him is versatility being adept at 6.

Lawes, Launchbury and Parling are nailed on as first 3. Ideally we would want a 4th choice to be able to play on the flank.

Attwood, Kruis and Kitchener are solely second rows, I know Kruis played a bit at flank but just isn't quick enough there at Int level.

Slater could offer an option at 6 but has been injured long term.

After that you have Easter as a possibility covering no 8 and second row. However this is an option I really don't like as that 4th lock should be a lock first and foremost IMO. Plus if Morgan is fit he'll be there with Billy V as the two No 8s.

After that it looks like Itoje is the next cab of the rank. It's a very outside bet and personally I wouldn't go for it as I don't feel he's ready. However there is some logic to be seen behind the speculation.

As said I want a second row first and foremost so if fit I'd take Slater as he offers a different option to Lawes, Launchbury and Parling. If he doesn't make it then Attwood is the best bet. He may not have shown everything we wanted from his bulk consistently but he hasn't played terribly either. He has some experience and can lead the line-out, he'd be an asset in a RWC squad IMO.

Why?

Could we not just include say Ewers a big bruising player who can cover 8 and 6, then let all our locks focus on playing lock.

Don't forget Billy V can cover 6 as well and if Easter goes...he can cover all 3 spots.

Has anyone mentioned Calum Clark or is that still too much of a controversial call?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What do people make of the criticism of Wade on twitter by his team mate Andy Goode. Warrented?

Personally I dont think twitter is the place for such criticism amoungst team mates.

Bad drills. Would you be better off posting this on the Wasps thread?

What do you mean bad drills?

As in bad drills from Goode, poor show. Bad drills must be a military only term?!?!

Sgt Pooly still a few games for Itoje to prove his worth.

Also there is no guarantee that all 2nd rows will make the squad.

Personally I see Itoje as just as likely as Slater or Kitchener. He's got much international experience as both of them = zero.

Lancaster quite clearly has chosen two players that he might like to call upon for the RWC as bolters - that's Itoje and Burgess. Their inclusion in the Saxons was indicative of this.

GunsGerms wrote:What do people make of the criticism of Wade on twitter by his team mate Andy Goode. Warrented?

Personally I dont think twitter is the place for such criticism amoungst team mates.

I think he's right to criticise him, but it should not of been done in public. You don't say your going to attend a charity event and then pull out because you are "tired"

Disagree Beshocked, Itoje is well down the pecking order and I've seen nothing to suggest he's ready.

Slater(if fit) and Kitchener are ahead of him imo and both unlikely to make the cut.

Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Attwood, Kruis are the current incumbents and I guarantee you Itoje will not get ahead of this pack in time for the WC.

He's not a line out leader of any pedigree and he's not physical enough around the park.

Fluxy wrote:Has anyone mentioned Calum Clark or is that still too much of a controversial call?

Its been mentioned on the other England thread. And if he is still in the form he has been all season then he would definitely be in the squad.

Clarks form has tailed off a little, in large part because at times he has been carrying the Saints pack.

Sgt Pooly

Kitchener wasn't starting for Leicester on the weekend, Slater is injured - can't say they are ahead in the pecking order at this moment of time.

Why should Itoje be written off before the season is even over? Whoever gets the most game time and performs best will move into contention.

Some players are more likely to get the nod even when in poor form because of their international experience.

Kitchener and Slater have no international experience which will count against them.

Lack of international experience is also something that counts against the likes of S.Armitage,Abendanon and Myler.

I guess the experience of the likes of Haskell and Easter is why they got the nod in the 6 nations.

If fit, Kitchener & Slater are ahead of Itoje. They've both been in and around the England set up and are better players.

I think your overrating Itoje a little Beshocked, we may as we be discussing another youngster who has little to zero chance of making the squad.

I'll happily bet you money that Itoje will not make the squad, he's just not good enough currently.

Craxy really but it's all about winning pool A because whoever does that is probably playing Scotland if not Samoa in the quarter (unless Samoa beat SA which is my shock result of the pool stages). From there you play, Ireland or Argentina in the semis.

Sgt pooly Slater isn't fit though and Kitchener wasn't starting for Tigers on the weekend.

It's not like these guys are tearing it up in the AP.

A player can leapfrog others if playing well enough.

Overrating him because I happen to think he's got as much chance getting in the squad as one player who is injured and the other who is getting as much game time?

They've been around the squad but they have no international caps.

I am talking about the squad of 45 I should add.

Plenty of rugby before the squad announcement. I still think a spot is available. Itoje has to stay fit, get game time and play well of course.

Unlikely perhaps but possible IMO

I have said about 3 times that if fit,Slater & Kitchener are ahead of him. Kitchener not starting bears no relevance, he's still a better player than Itoje.

Anyway, these two are around 6/7th choice with Itoje not even in the picture imo.

I don't see anything to suggest that Itoje is anywhere near ready. He's a talent without question but lacks physicality and makes a lot of errors around the breakdown.

I'm more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and wager that he won't make the squad, £20?

A squad of 45 is not the WC squad by the way, suggesting a player will make that is almost as pointless as suggesting Itoje will make the WC squad. You could almost include 1/3 of starting EQ AP players in a squad of 45.

What is likely to be the Pre World Cup squad get together? 50?

And whats a WC squad number?

31/32 is it GF?

Well, If England are going to invite 50, they might as well invite me as well. Can't quite think invitees 48, 49, or 50 have much of a shot. Suppose they are their to hold the tackle pads and be the victims. I can only impagine most of the squad is already selected and the next guys on the depth chart are as well. I am hoping for a few surprises, but doubt it.

The only guys without a cap I can see getting in are Slade, Slater, Kitchener, Burgess, George, Ewers or Garvey and those are probably a little reliant on injuries. Then there's guys like Wade Pennell who may force their way in.

Yeah I think your probably right Sgt.

Dr,
I just think they'll have a look at a wider scope with a few youngsters or outsiders. WE still have a few spots that aren't nailed down and some might impress in the get together. Last minute bolter type.
Also players like Ewers, Calum Clark etc need to be assessed.

I also think it could be very valuable for youngsters who will most likely progress to the senior squad to experience. Just being on the fringes...seeing the requirements etc. Players like Slade, Itoje, etc etc

Sgt Pooly time does not stay still. Still a few months before the squad is picked.

It's bold to claim someone is ahead when all three are fit because players can improve, form is an important factor that can't be ignored either.

Not in the picture? Lancaster put him in the Saxons. That quite clearly shows that England are keeping an eye on him.

As I said - plenty of rugby before the RWC - I believe that if Itoje can get some gametime together,stay fit and play well then he should be looked at.

no 7 & 1/2 seriously? Would like to hear your case for Kitchener and Slater. As for Burgess is he a 6 or a 12 now? Garvey - he's not favoured by Lancaster.

Slade,Ewers and George - yes I can see that.

Are you willing to put money on it Beshocked?

Itoje was getting looked at and he struggled. It was the same for Scott Wilson from us, he's also not going to be in the WC squad as he's not ready and there's plenty better (same as Itoje).

I think Itoje will probably be in the wider squad...just for some experience and so the coaches can work on some plans for his progression (alongside Sarries)

However I don't think he'll be in the actual final WC squad.

Did you see what I did there?

Kitchener and Slater have been called up to the squad, should he be fit Slater would have had his chance by now, if he gets fit I think he could force his way up the pecking order a little. Kitchener is relying on injuries but someone I like, obviously excellent in the lineout.

Burgess is my bolter now if he gets a run at 6, very premature pick after 1 game but I can see it happening, don't think he's good enough at 12. Garvey was called up again to the Saxons so again not completely out of the picture as once thought but hugely relying on some injuries at 6.

I think Attwood and Slater would be battling for the spot.

Attwood has done not bad (his tackling and workrate were high) but I don't think he's brought the real physicality many of us had hoped he would. Slater is another in that mold. If he's fit and can show more ability to use the physical presence he has then he could find a spot. Plus hes a leader.

All ifs and buts at the moment...but they all still have a few months to get back in shape.

Sgt Pooly

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/england-saxons-player-analysis-maro-itoje-42517

Perhaps read this before damning Maro's performance vs the Wolfhounds.


no I am not going to put money on it because gametime and injuries will be key.

Scott Wilson isn't potentially going to be involved in an top tier European semi final or involved in the race for the AP title.

I think backing Itoje to make the squad is no more unlikely than Kitchener or Slater because he's rated as one of the top prospects in England at the moment.

Perhaps it's too early but who knows?

Itoje had an absolute shocker at the lineout, dropping balls that went straight to him. He is a promising player but you seem to be ignoring the fact that Kitch and Slater are also rated as top prospects. Both have been in the EPS and both have captained England teams (v Barbarians and Crusaders).

Anyway all irelevant as barring injury the four locks will be Lawes, Launchbury, Parling and Attwood.

No I know, he won't make the squad.

I watched the game Beshocked, he was outmuscled by a semi decent Irish pack and showed he's nowhere near ready. Henderson who's on the fringes of the Irish set up, completely dominated him around the park.

He 100% won't make the squad. It seems your unwillingness to put money on it means you think the same deep down, I agree with you.

LondonTiger wrote:Itoje had an absolute shocker at the lineout, dropping balls that went straight to him. He is a promising player but you seem to be ignoring the fact that Kitch and Slater are also rated as top prospects. Both have been in the EPS and both have captained England teams (v Barbarians and Crusaders).

Anyway all irelevant as barring injury the four locks will be Lawes, Launchbury, Parling and Attwood.

Totally agree, he's nowhere near ready. SL was obviously getting him some exposure for the future.

Anyway all irelevant as barring injury the four locks will be Lawes, Launchbury, Parling and Attwood

Lt your right...though I think Slater is an exception who could challenge Attwood.

Far too early for Itoje IMO, lock isn't the best position for green 20 year olds. If there's a couple of injuries at lock I would be far more comfortable with an Attwood/Slater/Kitchener starting rather than a rookie

Its such bad luck that Slater got that injury, I'm fairly sure he would have cemented his place as at worst the 3rd choice lock by now if not

Londontiger being shocking at the lineout hasn't stopped Tom Youngs international career....

Yes Kitchener and Slater have been rated as top prospects but as I said before - they are not tearing up the AP now are they?

Injuries might have a say.

Sgt Pooly outmuscled by an Irish pack? Remind me which team won? Oh and read the rugby world analysis.

I have said it's unlikely he will make the squad but not going to write him off yet.

I wouldn't write him off but wouldn't say he's above any of the others mentioned. Top propsect but not better than the others now.

He's going to be an England player, but not now.

Yes Beshocked, outmuscled. You do realise an individual player can be outmuscled and a team still win?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:As in bad drills from Goode, poor show. Bad drills must be a military only term?!?!

Dont know, maybe it is used in the UK only. Havent heard it.

I agree though it was unnecessary from Goode.

I haven't heard bad drills either, maybe it is just a military thing

Beshocked, has Itoje really been "tearing up the AP". I'd say he's been competent and not looked out of place, but hardly dominating anyone

Wonder if we'd be hearing the same backing for Itoje if he played for say, Exeter

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's going to be an England player, but not now.

Yes Beshocked, outmuscled. You do realise an individual player can be outmuscled and a team still win?

Yes I do but from the shots shown in the analysis he didn't look outmuscled to me.

We'll see. Hopefully he makes you eat your words. Personally I am not going to write him off.

Having a winning mentality is important - Itoje has that.

no 7 & 1/2 never said he was above - just said he's got as much chance as other prospects because it's open - still plenty of time for people to make a claim for a spot.

Yeah, I'm saying he doesn't have as much of a chance as he's not as good yet.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, I'm saying he doesn't have as much of a chance as he's not as good yet.

That's kind of my point. Yes he got a Saxons call but he's clearly not ready. I imagine SL would call on a number of better locks like Kitchener, Paterson etc before throwing in Itoje.

Precisely. The fact I'm doing the same for Burgess isn't lost on me but I think it's a slightly different scenario as we already know he was top quality in the other form and for me 6 is tailor made for him. Even then it relies on Ford giving him the continued chance at 6 if not no hope. He's also 26 in the prime of his career, or close to it.

Don't get me started on Burgess lol

Maro Itoje looks liek he will be a fantastic player, and a key part of the 2019 RWC squad. However first he needs to do two things:

1) Establish himself as a starter for Saracens.
2) Decide on a position

If he is to fulfil his potential at lock, he needs to learn how to cath the ball - and not become too heavy. As a shortish second row he will depend on his lifters. If he is to fulfil his potential at 6 he needs to work on pace. His power creates opportunities, but then he is overhauled and brought to ground rather easily.

Good player, great prospect but in reality a second choice club player (admittedly at the countries strongest club)