State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

But his handling and passing at times is genuinely amateurish (if its that good!!) for a guy who supposedly has an immense array of passing skills.

He also misses too many tackles.

I can only say I would rather start the inexperienced HIll or Stephenson over him.
Id even prefer Barritt.

I wouldn't, fair enough.

As Slade has not played at 12, I would say that hill is better than him.

Northampton seem to play better with Stephenson than they do with Burrell.


Of course I am not saying either shoudl be in the RWC squad - just that they are good young prospects who are actually playing at 12 for top clubs.

Slade has the skill set and is classy enough to cover from 10 to 13 for me. It may be too soon, I think he'll get a shot at 12 in the warm ups. I think he's better than Hill.

But how can he play 12 at international level when he doesn't even play there for his club...and when his clubs current 12 is another hugely promising one for the future who himself could very well be a wildcard in a wider squad when this position is wide open.

How can a 12 at club level play at 13 for his country in that case? For me Slade has all the skills to play 12, I think he will play there in the future for England and in the near future.

Im not disagreeing that he has the skills, im just saying he has zero experience in that position.

If you are referring to Burrell at 13 then its not a move I would have made...but ironically he played better there than he did this season at 12.

For whatever reason Burrell was something of a disappointment in this 6N

I'm not one for players playing out of position. Slade has impressed at 10 & 13, as far as I'm aware he's never played 12.

It's such a problem position, I just wish somebody would put in a half decent performance and nail the shirt.

Of all the candidates I'd air towards Devoto as he seems to have the skill set. Hill although good, lacks a bit of gas for me. Slade hasn't played there yet.

I'd probably look at going with Barritt with Eastmond on the fringe for the easier games.

lostinwales wrote:For whatever reason Burrell was something of a disappointment in this 6N

As geordiefalcon points out it was because Burrell was play 12 not 13.... Burrell was much more comfortable at 13.

Twelvetrees was meant to be Greenwood reincarnated but has not lived up to the hype.

12 is not looking a strong position - perhaps Slade is worth a look though I am not sure a Ford-Slade-Joseph axis looks particularly balanced.

I'd put money on SL going with Barritt/Joseph. Our defence was a little iffy at times in the 6N. Barritt will sure this up and with Ford there's less of a concern about creativity than the Farrell/Barritt axis.

At least with JJ we do have a decent option for 13 in case Manu does not recover. As for 12 I have to agree that Burrell and 36 have failed to make their case adequately, but the time to blood new faces is over. Therefore, and with a heavy heart, I choose Barritt as at least he will improve our defence and has been part of recent victories over New Zealand and Australia. I wish Slade had been tried earlier. The other issue is what to do with Manu if he regains fitness this summer. It is an easy option to use him as an impact sub, but in order to beat the best sides you want your best players on the pitch and Manu fits that criteria. He does not have the passing to play 12 and the wing experiment has been tried with no success. Therefore how about Barritt and Manu in the centres with JJ moved out to the wing ahead of Nowell. They can even mix things up and bring JJ closer in on some plays, but overall that might work?

Is Eastmond completely out of the picture now?

Also, how far away from playing is Manu? Surely we are getting into the realms of - he wont have enough gametime for WC selection.

Im afraid I prefer Joseph OR Manu...not trying to shoehorn both in.

Im with Sgt

Ford - Barritt - Joseph

Barritt hasn't been on top form since coming back from injury but he is a nice balance for the other two guys.

Post WC then one blood one of the kids....whilst also looking at the set up of the back row.

propdavid_london wrote:Is Eastmond completely out of the picture now?  

I think its his size which is concerning people.

Would the Bath midfield be physically strong enough for this level and a World Cup? Who knows.

I did feel that he carried the can for a couple of bad team performances. Where as Burrell and 36 it seems that mud doesnt stick.

I think Eastmond's boat may have sailed (perhaps unfairly)

We have 2 games against France and one against Ireland

I'd expect to see Barritt start one the French games, and Slade/Manu (if fit) start the other, then the full team to get a go against the Irish

propdavid_london wrote:I did feel that he carried the can for a couple of bad team performances.  Where as Burrell and 36 it seems that mud doesnt stick.

I would happily see him in there again...I would agree he didn't get a genuine chance.

Maybe against some weaker sides initially to see how he goes.

Eastmond has probably had the best game at 12 out of everyone and the worst both against NZ and was iffy in the AI he played.

5 months from RWC and no clue who the centres will be? How long has Stewie been in charge?

2011, but dont confuse fans not agreeing with the coaches not knowing who they would prefer. Why are you trying to wum all the time?

Gwlad wrote:5 months from RWC and no clue who the centres will be? How long has Stewie been in charge?

OK away from the '12' conundrum....

Matt Kvesic. Been excellent and consistent in a poor side all season. Would you take him to the WC?

I think he will be in the larger squad, and can definately play himself into contention.

Not read through the whole thread guys but what's he view on Manu, will he make, would it be a big risk taking him with so little rugby, does SL have to take that risk etc etc?

7 and 12 are the biggest areas of contention - most definitely if Robshaw gets injured.

Gwlad everyone has their areas that need strengthening.

Wales' TH stock is so low that they have been tempting an Englishman to play for Wales to go with the numerous Welsh players with English connections you already have in your team.

Oh and bear in mind that Wales would not have won their Grandslams without an Englishman, Shaun Edwards being the mastermind, afterall it was the defence that was arguably the most important factor.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not read through the whole thread guys but what's he view on Manu, will he make, would it be a big risk taking him with so little rugby, does SL have to take that risk etc etc?

We are lucky that with JJ we have a fantastic replacement, but Manu is such a physical threat that you can't leave him out if there is a chance he can make it.

If we were playing tomorrow I think it would have to be Ford/Barritt/JJ

JJ was in great form and player of tournament for me so dangerous and threatening, could him and Manu play together.

Manu for you is what Gatland sees as Roberts for us, everything runs off Roberts and if it was other way around then Roberts would go if fit no matter how little game time he had.

Manu is out for the season so in all honesty I wouldn't take him to the RWC, you just couldn't be certain he'd be fit and it'd lijely end with injury.

It's a shame as an in form Tuilagi is phenomenal, but to be honest he hasn't been like that since about 2013.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_47683,00.html

bedfordwelsh wrote:JJ was in great form and player of tournament for me so dangerous and threatening, could him and Manu play together.

Manu for you is what Gatland sees as Roberts for us, everything runs off Roberts and if it was other way around then Roberts would go if fit no matter how little game time he had.

I honestly think that the reason why there is a comparison there is that they are both big guys who do a lot of heavy physical stuff in the center, in Manu's case particularly at a time when he was the only real weapon in England's back line. In practice I think Roberts is more the starting point, the guy who punches holes or just trucks the ball up and offloads. He is also as far as I understand the defensive organiser. 

I don't think Manu is anything like the same level of communicator. He can offload and pass but its not the strongest part of his game. What Manu does do is make big breaks and score tries. He plays much more like JDII does for you than Roberts

Who is this Manu you all talk of? Surely not that hot prospect of some years ago whose playing career was blighted by injury?

TBH I’d suggest an embargo on the M word until such a time, probably some years hence (and certainly beyond the next RWC), when (or more likely if) he proves his fitness and form.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Who is this Manu you all talk of?

A mythical beast known for superhuman strength and power. The story originated from the South Seas, although took a rather unexpected turn towards the resting place of an ancient king.

Reported sightings of the Manu in its natural habitat (a specially prepared area of grassland known as 'the pitch') are slightly less common than sightings of Nessie

Over time and in the absence of any recorded sightings it certainly seems that in legend the beast grows ever greater and more powerful.

Manu gets better every game he doesn't play......

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu gets better every game he doesn't play......

It's an amazing phenomenon that affects cricketers as well - Adil Rashid appears to now be the reincarnation of Warne and Sobers given the failure of England's selectors to pick him for the Test match.

Anyway, it would be good if Manu can get back to playing - he does offer an interesting contrast to JJ, and it would at least be a nice selection dilemma to have.

Gwlad wrote:5 months from RWC and no clue who the centres will be? How long has Stewie been in charge?

Who has no clue as to the centres will be? us? well it doesnt matter what we think as it has no bearing on who will be picked.

Dave Wilson back for Bath tomorrow

Actually I'm Mike Catt and I was hoping you guys could tell me who to pick in the centres. I've been pretty lost after that tosspot Ford moved Burgess to 6.

Hasn't worked though as all you've done is tell me to take Twelvetrees out and shoot him and to hope Manu suddenly stops breaking himself.

Cheers for nothing you lot!

Ed slater back this weekend too.

yappysnap wrote:Actually I'm  Mike Catt and I was hoping you guys could tell me who to pick in the centres. I've been pretty lost after that tosspot Ford moved Burgess to 6.

Hasn't worked though as all you've done is tell me to take Twelvetrees out and shoot him and to hope Manu suddenly stops breaking himself.

Cheers for nothing you lot!

appreciate your honesty mike, at least someone isn't deluding himself

I do wish that idiots with nothing to add other than trying to pee people off would just bugger off.

LondonTiger wrote:I do wish that idiots with nothing to add other than trying to pee people off would just bugger off.

Do you mean Stewie I didnt think he was doing that badly

LondonTiger wrote:I do wish that idiots with nothing to add other than trying to pee people off would just bugger off.

I agree mate...

LondonTiger wrote:I do wish that idiots with nothing to add other than trying to pee people off would just bugger off.

When someone's sole contribution to a thread is to WUM, you'd rather hope that the decision would be taken out of their hands by the moderators.

The big issue really is Mke Browns continued problems with concussion. Latest reports suggest he just isnt recovering, which in pat times wouldve been overlooked but in the current climate of actually showing some level of concern for the future ability of players to live has the potential to keep him out of the world cup altogether.
With Foden still in suspended animation as well that really has put Egland from a position of having to full backs who are two good too leave out to looking at a bloke who gave up on his england career years ago and moved to France for the money. The problem with picking Abendanon is it would also force the question regarding fat Armitage as well. At some point someone form the RFU would get forced into publicly stating that regardless of whether or not hes been convicted yet theres not a cat in hells chance they would pick a player who beat up a fan whilst drunk, not to mention the failed drugs tests and refusing to come back to play in England when offered an olive branch. That and hes a bit fat as well. And he cant even spell his own first name properly.

Anyway yeah without Brown full back becomes a problem, even if Lancaster does keep picking full backs on the wing. So maybe it isnt a problem, maybe he could just put one of them there. Itll probably be Goode though just to annoy the internet.

Repeated concussions may have been overlooked in past professional times, but there were plenty of top players from the amateur age who stopped because of them.

I feel, as fans, we have to assume that Mike Brown will not feature for England again - and be delighted if he does.

It will be a huge shame if that is the case, but his health is the most important thing. We are at a point where we do have options at full back. Watson and Nowell both offer an arguably superior running threat anyway (but please not Goode for the reasons that have been repeated again and again).

However Brown's leadership, will to win, and shear angry presence are going to be very hard to replace.

Abendanon got outplayed by Goode in the semi finals and arguably cost Clermont the final vs Toulon - not sure why is he even being talked about.

You might say didn't you see Abendanon's awesome try - yes I did but he was at fault for Toulon's two. Didn't kick the ball out for the first try and missed a tackle on Mitchell for the 2nd.