Edinburgh, Glasgow and London Scottish Arrivals & Departures

First topic message reminder :

With a few players announcing their departures, and few named to replace them, I thought it'd be useful to have an in-out list.

Also a good place to post any rumours or rumours of rumours.

Let me know if I'm missing anyone?!


Edinburgh


In:

Nasi Manu - Highlanders - Flanker     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DsgMvrYr6I
Will Helu - Coventry Wasps - Wing    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luMTcwgcr5U
Nathan Fowles - Sale - SH              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWzXXhzeQE
Michael Allen - Ulster - Wing/Centre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHnLKIz0Ecw
Otulea Katoa - Southland - Wing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crq6ZJKaeg4

Duncan Hodge - SRU - Backs Coach

Out:

Tim Visser - Harlequins - Wing
Ollie Atkins - Exeter Chiefs - Lock
Michael Tait - the bar - Centre
Tom Heathcote - Worcester Warriors - FH
Grayson Hart - Glasgow Warriors - SH
Wicus Blaauw - ? - Prop
Brett Thompson - ? -
Nikki Walker - Hawick - Wing


Contract ending:

Hookers: Hilterbrand, Turner
Props: Dickinson, Nel
BR: Leonardi, Du Preez

FH: Bezuidenhout
Centre: Dominguez, Atiga
Wings: Farndale


Glasgow Warriors


In:

Grayson Hart - Edinburgh - SH                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1ReJ_oz1Rk
Mike Blair - Newcastle Falcons - SH             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sWN-M8lQ2o
Keiran Low - London Irish - Lock/Flanker       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qszjBclzxds
Simone Favaro - Treviso - Flanker                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAcEaWGY8yk
Sam Johnson - Queensland Reds - Centre      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J_O4sLMfdc
Greg Peterson - Leicester Tigers - Lock
Taqele Naiyaravoro - NSW Waratahs - Wing  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgSC643wJRI
Javan Sebastian - Scarlets Academy - Prop  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9N4q0zcwTo
Jason Hill - Heriot’s - No.8                         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my_UQoN8DM8
Hugh Blake - Edinburgh? - Flanker             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIIuR-HjFho
Sila Puafisi - Gloucester - Prop                   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXLR_9CXkUs  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqAneyg0Fqw


Dan McFarland - Connacht - Forwards Coach

Out:

Niko Matawalu - Bath - SH
Sean Maitland - London Irish - Wing
John Welsh - Newcastle Falcons - Prop
Dougie Hall - the bar - Hooker
Al Kellock - the bar - Lock
DTH - Scarlets - Wing
Tom Ryder - Northampton - Lock
James Downey - Wasps - Centre
Murray McConnell - Nottingham - Centre
Tommy Spinks - Jersey - Flanker

Shade Munroe - ? - Forwards Coach

Contract ending:

Props: Murray, G.Hunter

SH: Price
FH: Hunter, Lyle
Wings: Hughes
Full Backs: Braid


London Scottish


In:

Drew Locke - Jersey - Centre                 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KcGBGC7FKI
Neale Patrick - Plymouth - Lock              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsi07ANTE04
Russell Weir - Scotland 7's - SH              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpcYh30H04
David Young - Newport Dragons - Prop    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxIq4nwimCM
Freddie Clarke - Bath - Flanker
Jason Harries - Wales 7's - Centre
Jimmy Litchfield - London Welsh - Prop    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMCPZqsXqHo
James Chisholm - Harlequins - No.8         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl9v5JzpUn0  (scorer of both tries)
Craig Jackson - Hartbury - Full Back         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jXMZE5Xl-k
Rory Bartle - Gloucester - Lock                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWJF0rIYhms
Tyrone Moran - Leinster - Hooker             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he4Bq0Dkdfg
Will Carrick-Smith - Exeter - Lock
Joe Marchant - Harlequins - Centre          https://vine.co/v/O2FBmaU6dD2
Kieran Treadwell - Harlequins - Lock        
James Gibbons - Gloucester - Prop
Season long loan from Bath Rugby
Beno Obano - Bath - Prop                       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqWvAmmYfw  
Tom Woolstencroft - Bath - Hooker          https://vine.co/v/MTDzbLxOxTM

Peter Richards - LS - Promoted to Head Coach
Tim Payne - London Irish - Forwards Coach


Out:

Adam Preocanin - Ealing Trailfinders - Lock
Gregor Gillanders - Blackheath - Flanker
James Phillips - Bristol - No.8
Jamie Stevenson - Wasps - Scrum Half
Kieran Moffat- returned to New Zealand - Centre
Lovejoy Chawatama - Rosslyn Park - Prop
Mark Lilley - Rosslyn Park - Prop
Matt Hawke - Rosslyn Park - Centre
Mike Doneghan - AS Macon - Wing
Neil Best - Retired - Flanker
PJ Gidlow - Stade Rouennais - Centre
Ross Doneghan - Retired - Flanker
Stewart Maguire - East Grinstead - Prop
Tai Tuisamoa - returned to USA - Flanker

Mike Friday - USA 7's - Head Coach

Weegie Wizard wrote:

madmaccas wrote:Whereas Glasgow should have quite a few coming up, especially if the article from Toonie that GC posted is to go by. They'll need at least 2 wings, a lock, hooker and loosehead prop.

I don't think we will see a loosehead. We already have Grant, Reid, Jerry and Alex Allan there. Plenty to get by.

Wingers are the priority ideally with one who can play centre. I imagine the only way we'll see another 2nd row (other than EDP) is if Castres want rid of Gray Snr.

Glasgow also need centres who can walk on their own without medical assistance/exoskeleton suit and who may stay fit for more than 1 game

Edinburgh have a new signing!!
Nothing to get too excited about though, one of last seasons Scotland U20s props Jack Cosgrove. Plays for Worcester and also Coventry as dual registered.
Apparently a pretty strong scrummager. Comes in on a 2 year deal.
Going to be v well stocked at loosehead with Dickinson, Dell, Shiells, Sutherland and now Cosgrove.

Weegie Wizard wrote:

madmaccas wrote:Whereas Glasgow should have quite a few coming up, especially if the article from Toonie that GC posted is to go by. They'll need at least 2 wings, a lock, hooker and loosehead prop.

I don't think we will see a loosehead. We already have Grant, Reid, Jerry and Alex Allan there. Plenty to get by.

Wingers are the priority ideally with one who can play centre. I imagine the only way we'll see another 2nd row (other than EDP) is if Castres want rid of Gray Snr.

Possibly not during the world cup, Grant, Reid and Jerry could all well be away with Scotland and Fiji leaving only Alex Allan. Could possibly do with an extra prop possibly just on a short term contract to cover for during the world cup period.

Majestic83 wrote:Edinburgh have a new signing!!
Nothing to get too excited about though, one of last seasons Scotland U20s props Jack Cosgrove. Plays for Worcester and also Coventry as dual registered.
Apparently a pretty strong scrummager. Comes in on a 2 year deal.
Going to be v well stocked at loosehead with Dickinson, Dell, Shiells, Sutherland and now Cosgrove.

No bad thing signing young Scottish props, but we're not going to see much of him at Edinburgh and you wonder how much benefit he'll get playing in Prem 1

Majestic83 wrote:

Weegie Wizard wrote:

madmaccas wrote:Whereas Glasgow should have quite a few coming up, especially if the article from Toonie that GC posted is to go by. They'll need at least 2 wings, a lock, hooker and loosehead prop.

I don't think we will see a loosehead. We already have Grant, Reid, Jerry and Alex Allan there. Plenty to get by.

Wingers are the priority ideally with one who can play centre. I imagine the only way we'll see another 2nd row (other than EDP) is if Castres want rid of Gray Snr.

Possibly not during the world cup, Grant, Reid and Jerry could all well be away with Scotland and Fiji leaving only Alex Allan. Could possibly do with an extra prop possibly just on a short term contract to cover for during the world cup period.

Sorted, Edinburgh have just signed another loosehead, so we're bound to have at least one you can borrow if you run out.

So Glasgow have signed a couple of unknowns called Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson.

Glasgow Warriors sign Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson

Meh.

So, if it's like for like, then we probably only have a hooker and a wing to come. Let's hope they're a bit more exciting than this (not feeling confident)!

madmaccas wrote:So Glasgow have signed a couple of unknowns called Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson.

Glasgow Warriors sign Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson

Meh.

So, if it's like for like, then we probably only have a hooker and a wing to come. Let's hope they're a bit more exciting than this (not feeling confident)!

When will the SRFU learn ? There are only two pro sides in Scotland and they are being padded out with NSQ players, Scotland will always be bottom of the 6N if this keeps up, but what does it matter when you have a side at the top of the Pro12.

I have just read this on planet rugby, an Aussie center who has not played much rugby, and an American second rower who has made the grand total of 3 appearances for Leicester, oh well, enjoy battling it out for the wooden spoon with Italy for a few more years.

LordDowlais wrote:

madmaccas wrote:So Glasgow have signed a couple of unknowns called Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson.

Glasgow Warriors sign Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson

Meh.

So, if it's like for like, then we probably only have a hooker and a wing to come. Let's hope they're a bit more exciting than this (not feeling confident)!

When will the SRFU learn ? There are only two pro sides in Scotland and they are being padded out with NSQ players, Scotland will always be bottom of the 6N if this keeps up, but what does it matter when you have a side at the top of the Pro12.

I have just read this on planet rugby, an Aussie center who has not played much rugby, and an American second rower who has made the grand total of 3 appearances for Leicester, oh well, enjoy battling it out for the wooden spoon with Italy for a few more years.

I'd like to take exception, but I can't unfortunately.

I don't mind a few top quality NSQ players, but these guys aren't exactly top quality. Still in Toonie we trust so fingers crossed he's spotted something in them that others have missed.

Glasgow has a very high ratio of SQ players, so given these guys aren't being bought to base the team around and will be cheap, I don't see it being a big issue.

Also, I wish that we were overflowing with native Scottish alternatives but unfortunately we aren't.

There are several SQ players plying their trade in Super Rugby just now but persuading them to come over to wet and cold Glasgow is obviously not easy.

madmaccas wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

madmaccas wrote:So Glasgow have signed a couple of unknowns called Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson.

Glasgow Warriors sign Sam Johnson and Greg Peterson

Meh.

So, if it's like for like, then we probably only have a hooker and a wing to come. Let's hope they're a bit more exciting than this (not feeling confident)!

When will the SRFU learn ? There are only two pro sides in Scotland and they are being padded out with NSQ players, Scotland will always be bottom of the 6N if this keeps up, but what does it matter when you have a side at the top of the Pro12.

I have just read this on planet rugby, an Aussie center who has not played much rugby, and an American second rower who has made the grand total of 3 appearances for Leicester, oh well, enjoy battling it out for the wooden spoon with Italy for a few more years.

I'd like to take exception, but I can't unfortunately.

I don't mind a few top quality NSQ players, but these guys aren't exactly top quality. Still in Toonie we trust so fingers crossed he's spotted something in them that others have missed.

He has actually got a pretty good track record at this, keep the faith!

I will take exception to this.

Six words - Ben Toolis, Leone Nakarawa, Niko Matawalu.

Guys, what I said was not meant as a WUM or anything worst, I just do not want to be seeing threads on here where people are trying to make an argument for ditching Scotland in the 6N, there are only two pro sides up there, they need to be full of Scottish players, you cannot tell me there are no Scottish players as good as those two who are coming in, I just could not believe that.

No one is accusing you of Wumming LD. This comes up every time a NSQ player is signed, but as I said - Glasgow is a predominantly SQ squad and, given how cheap these guys would be and the fact that there are very few realistic SQ options, I don't see it as a big deal.

Another thread lists every single SQ professional player, so I've highlighted in bold the kind of players they could have targeted instead to show the level of SQ player available.  Again we've got to make the assumption here that they'd actually want to come!

Locks
J Hamilton(Saracens), S MacLeod(Newcastle), S Tomes(Newcastle),A Crammond(Toulon), A Sinclair(Albi), R Gray(Castres), G Young(Newcastle) N Patrick (Plymouth albion) N Campbell (Jersey)

A few options, but hardly stellar names playing regularly in big clubs. I'm not sure if Glasgow could get Ritchie Gray back.

Centres
D Taylor(Saracens), M Doneghan(London Scottish), A Grove(Worcester), N De Luca(Biarittz), O Grove(London Scottish) H Jones(Stormers & Western Province), K Linnett(North Queensland Cowboys RL/ Scotland RL)

Huw Jones or Duncan Taylor would be very good signings, but they may not want to come to Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The rest are youngsters, average journeymen or nearing the end of their careers.

The players that Glasgow are signing are not journey men though, they are youngsters, especially the Aussie centre, he is only 20yrs old isn't he ? You cannot tell me that there are no young centres playing rugby in Scotland that could come in and do what he is going to do. Is he being signed as a project player or something ?

The issue we have at the moment is Scottish rugby is at something of a cross roads. We have to do something to break the cycle.

This will be over simplified LD but bear with me. Scottish rugby as most of us know has struggled over recent years. The problem is that the game in Scotland did not have a seamless or effective transition into the professional era like England, France or Ireland.

The Rugby heartland of Scotland is and always will be the borders. A pro team tried to start up there, you'll probably remember the border reavers, however loyalty in the borders resided with Melrose, Kelso, Hawick, Jed Forrest etc and the border reavers were liquidated with their players being absorbed into Scotland's only 2 pro teams.

Glasgow in recent years have been doing very well. Winning games, building a loyal fan base who want to go to Scotstoun and watch them play. The more fans, the more people interested in rugby etc means more revenue which gives the teams a chance to hang onto the better talent and also get more people interested in rugby in Scotland.

I didn't like what Solomans was doing to Edinburgh around November time. We were on a pretty bad losing streak and we were bringing in a lot of foreign journeymen that I felt brought nothing to the club. Now however I understand what he was doing. He was bringing these foreign journeymen in to allow players like Hamish Watson, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne and Ben Toolis to progress and become better players for Edinburgh and Scotland (look out for these guys in the RWC).

What you are suggesting is you put the cart before the horse. Stating that we should bring in untested Scottish talent instead of experienced foreign players to improve Scottish rugby.

I disagree. The foreign players at this point in time are necessary to bring on some of the untested Scottish talent. We need to generate some wins to get the Scottish public interested in rugby. Also the more experienced foreign guys can help the untested Scottish players grow into the game a bit.

Again the core of the Edinburgh and Glasgow teams are Scottish. It is also easy to argue that all the best players in the Glasgow and Edinburgh squads (if not the most experienced) are Scottish too.

I would love to see the Likes of Kelly Brown, Richie Gray and Duncan Taylor plying their trade in Scotland but the truth these guys would be another block to up and coming Scottish talent.

He's 21 (not that it makes a big difference).

Young Scottish players develop later than other nations, because they are not in a professionals set up and are playing amateur rugby. Looking at our current under 20s squad, it will be a few years yet before they will be ready for professional rugby, and if you threw them straight in it would be to their detriment.

I know it is a chicken and egg kind of situation, but it isn't a case of just throwing some youngsters in and hoping you can have a successful team.

I also don't think you appreciate fully that Edinburgh and especially Glasgow's squads are predominantly SQ.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What you are suggesting is you put the cart before the horse. Stating that we should bring in untested Scottish talent instead of experienced foreign players to improve Scottish rugby.

What experience do the two players that Glasgow have signed bring to Scottish rugby ? They are young kids. Also, what happened to Border Reivers sounds a lot like what has happened here in Wales, to many club loyalties for the regional side to attract enough fans.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would love to see the Likes of Kelly Brown, Richie Gray and Duncan Taylor plying their trade in Scotland but the truth these guys would be another block to up and coming Scottish talent.

This is why in my opinion you need more than two pro sides, you cannot fulfil an international team with just two pro sides feeding into it, for a country the size of Scotland having two pro sides is unacceptable, you are not a poor country, the SRFU seriously need to start working harder.

LD, it's the SRU, just before someone else says it... :p

LordDowlais wrote:

This is why in my opinion you need more than two pro sides, you cannot fulfil an international team with just two pro sides feeding into it, for a country the size of Scotland having two pro sides is unacceptable, you are not a poor country, the SRFU seriously need to start working harder.

You are preaching to the converted here though. Although the issue the SRU have is where to establish a third pro team.

Aberdeen? Inverness? Perth? Dundee?

Secondly where does this third pro team fit into the pro 12? Good luck convincing the IRFU, WRU or the FIR to drop one of their teams! The season is busy enough without fitting in another fixture and making it the pro 13 or pro 14 if Italy created a third team too.

Finally do we have enough affordable exiled player and enough young Scottish players showing promise to establish a team?

I wish it was as easy as you are making it out!

RDW_Scotland wrote: it will be a few years yet before they will be ready for professional rugby, and if you threw them straight in it would be to their detriment.

I do not agree with this, if they are good enough they are old enough, you have proved this with players like Fynn Russel, Duncan Wier, the younger Grey brother. We have done it in Wales, players like George North, Samson Lee, Dan Biggar, Scott Williams, Rhys Webb, Rhys Patchell, Tyler Morgan, Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos to name a few have all be playing for the regions from a very young age and Webb is the oldest player at 26yrs of age.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I also don't think you appreciate fully that Edinburgh and especially Glasgow's squads are predominantly SQ.

Whilst I agree with this, how many of them are actually Scottish though, and have come through the Scottish rugby system ?

Look guys, you know more about Scottish rugby than I do, you tell me, I am only thinking of what is best for Scotland and the 6N, please, educate me more on Scottish rugby perhaps I could then contribute more accurately to this debate.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Finally do we have enough affordable exiled player and enough young Scottish players showing promise to establish a team?

I would say resoundingly YES. With the list RDW gave above, and the improvement that your U20 side has made, I would suggest you have plenty of players who could step up. Your union needs to work harder. We are trying in Wales, with our North Wales region, it will not be too long when the needs of our nations will need the Pro12 to expand, and whether the Irish will want to stay at 4 teams, or the rest of us feel we need more, the question is going to be unavoidable, it all depends though on who as the most ambition of us all.

It's frustrating because what you say is true enough, especially where young players are concerned.

Edinburgh this year have had issues with injuries. Watson would arguably have been nowhere near the starting 15 had Du Preez and Denton been fit. However the gap left has allowed him to get game time and become integral to the Edinburgh team.

Same goes for Ben Toolis who got his shot after Edinburgh and Scotland captain Grant Gilchrist broke his arm.

We need a third team I agree 100% i just don't know how we can get a third pro team involved. I would love for the SRU to negotiate with the RFU and come to some agreement for funding and support of London Scottish. That is probably the line of least resistance for Scotland getting some semblance of a third pro team.

As for Scottish players coming through, despite all the bad stuff a lot of Scottish posters have said about Scot Johnson he has completely overhauled the grass roots of Scottish rugby and how young players are developed from an early age. Although it will take a lot of time for this to bear any fruit.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: I would love for the SRU to negotiate with the RFU and come to some agreement for funding and support of London Scottish. That is probably the line of least resistance for Scotland getting some semblance of a third pro team.

This is not what you want though, you must evolve, and our league must evolve along with you, I remember one season, when each team had a by every week, something like this needs to happen again, for the good of all of us, we will need the Pro12 to evolve when RGC1404 are ready for pro rugby, we are all evolving, I would love to see more Scottish sides in the league, it would make celtic rugby stronger.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is easier said than done. I'm and Edinburgh fan by default. However my club team's catchment area was Caledonia.

However the Caley Reds are nothing more than a memory too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_Reds

Well if it is never going to happen, then the only two Scottish sides need to stop signing NSQ players as a rule, otherwise Scotland national side will never achieve anything.

LordDowlais wrote:Well if it is never going to happen, then the only two Scottish sides need to stop signing NSQ players as a rule, otherwise Scotland national side will never achieve anything.

Not entirely sure that is 100% accurate either. Scotland have had some successes in the International scene. We have a pretty decent world cup record. We have taken some SH scalps, however our 6N record leaves a lot to be desired.

The signing of NSQ players doesn't concern me as long as Scottish talent is developed at the same time.

Case and point the emergence Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Ben Toolis, Hamish Watson who now form the spine of the Edinburgh team.

Throw in names like Denton, Dickinson, Ford, Gilchrist, Grant, Scott, Tonks (Nel) and you'll see that the core of Edinburgh is still Scottish or very soon to be Scottish.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:very soon to be Scottish.

Are you happy to be going down that road ?

I would question the effectiveness of a 3rd pro team with the current set-up in Scotland. Young players learn more from the environment they train and play in. How many Irish regular internationals did Connacht produce while they were still classed as "development"? Sean Cronin or Eric Elwood are the only ones who comes to mind. A good return on investment?

Before we even talk about a 3rd pro team I think we need to introduce a semi-pro league not based on current Prem 1 teams. In 2014 Australia launched its NRC. A competition tiered just below Super Rugby similar to ITM Cup. Personally I'd like to see something similar run here - it would run somewhere between April and September to take advantage of our great weather. Invite 6 or 8 teams to enter with at least 1 team from each district; Glasgow, Midlands, North, Edinburgh and the Borders. It could be a collection of clubs or regional Unions/Districts.

Its the development of players from the of 18 to 24 that Scotland are now lacking. The academies will give them the conditioning and skills they then need a better environment to learn the game.

Residency is a contentious issue for all teams.

I am envious of Wales and the ammount of interest the sport of rugby generates in that country. Being half Welsh myself had I been good enough to play for both Wales and Scotland and Scotland were not interested in my abilities I would have represented Wales (shingler).

Residency is a bit different I'll give you that. I'm not a fan of the mercenaries who get capped and leave as soon as they have their caps. Riki Flutey springs to mind.

However I have heard Visser talking about how he felt like he belonged in Edinburgh and called it his his home and that he felt proud and honoured to represent Scotland after his period of residency I'm not sure how we can argue with it.

He has been at Edinburgh for 6 years now and has now decided to move onto Harlequins, a move that is right for all parties IMO.

I'm not sure residency is any better than tenuous links to grand parents...

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote: it will be a few years yet before they will be ready for professional rugby, and if you threw them straight in it would be to their detriment.

I do not agree with this, if they are good enough they are old enough, you have proved this with players like Fynn Russel, Duncan Wier, the younger Grey brother.

The current under 20s squad are all 18 and 19 years old - in physical positions like 2nd row and centre it will certainly be a couple of years before they are ready.

The Gray brothers are once in a generation genetic freaks, and both Russell and Weir were 21 when they made their debuts.

The current under 20s have some giant 2nd rows but they are both 18.

There are some young centres from the under 20s a couple of years ago - Chris Dean and Chris Auld. I'd say next season both should be able to make the step up, having played in the 7s team regularly and also been loaned out to London Scottish. They are both at Edinburgh though.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:very soon to be Scottish.

Are you happy to be going down that road ?

I don't think that it's a question of Liking or Disliking, LD.

It is what it (currently) is and we need to play the game or miss opportunities.

Would I feel warm inside if all of our players were born and bred fluorescent gingers called Hamish McTavish? I guess so, but then again I thought that Glenn Metcalfe and the Leslie Brothers were some of the best things ever to happen to the Scottish game and I didn't think twice about whether their inclusion was correct or incorrect. Conversely, I also grew up watching guys who were born in Scotland but had names like Iwan Tukalo (Ukrainian).

Maybe it's just because I turn 38 in a week but I see more shades of grey in the world than I used to. Not 50 of them though.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Gray brothers are once in a generation genetic freaks,

Are they though ?

If that is the case then we must be one of the world leaders in producing them. We have had a shed load of players come through to represent the regions whilst in their late teens young twenties.

Genetic freaks as in how many 19 year old 18 stone second rows do you see playing International rugby in the home nations?

Of course countries produce youngsters that come through early, but I was meaning purely as massive 2nd rows that broke through at a young age - you don't see that very often.

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Gray brothers are once in a generation genetic freaks,

Are they though ?

If that is the case then we must be one of the world leaders in producing them. We have had a shed load of players come through to represent the regions whilst in their late teens young twenties.

POC 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) & 112 kg (17 st 8 lb, 246 lb)
AWJ 1.96 m (6 ft 5 in) & 118 kg (260 lb; 18 st 8 lb)

Gray Jr 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) & 119 kg (262 lb; 18 st 10 lb)
Gray Sr 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) & 128 kg (282 lb; 20 st 2 lb)

To be honest lord the Gray Brothers are something of a couple of freaks. They were capped early because they could hack it at an international level from the age of 20. I have compared them to 2 of the best locks in the NH, granted POC and AWJ have a lot more experience however I do expect the Gray brothers to be better players when they reach the ages of POC and AWJ if they continue to develop. There isn't a great deal of skill and ability between them at the moment IMO.

Capping guys young in the backs is differant. Hogg is a good example of being good enough despite your age. Although as he has aged Hoggs attitude has change a lot and for the better I might add.

As for Wales I remember the Halfpenny that burst onto the scene at 20 and the Halfpenny we see now. Much bigger but I have to say he has lost a lot of the attacking flair he once possesed.

Eztebeth and Launchbury are the only 2 locks I remember recently being quite as precocious internationally.

Fair enough, I will leave this debate now until another announcement of an unknown player ends up at one of your teams, I admit I know very little of Scottish rugby except what I see of it on the tele. Although I was watching a bit of the Edinburgh game on Alba last Friday and it was good to see Nicky Walker running out for that cup final and good to see him interviewed even though his team were humped. Thanks for the debate and insight to the game up there.

George Carlin wrote:Eztebeth and Launchbury are the only 2 locks I remember recently being quite as precocious internationally.

And Etebeth was 20 and Launchbery 21 when capped - Jonny Gray was 19!

Obviousy SA and England have far greater strenght in depth so they were going to be capped later, but I stayed by my point - the Gray brothers are genetic freaks and are the exception, not the rule, that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

LordDowlais wrote:Fair enough, I will leave this debate now until another announcement of an unknown player ends up at one of your teams, I admit I know very little of Scottish rugby except what I see of it on the tele. Although I was watching a bit of the Edinburgh game on Alba last Friday and it was good to see Nicky Walker running out for that cup final and good to see him interviewed even though his team were humped. Thanks for the debate and insight to the game up there.

No problem LD - you are brave to have brought it up and debated the point so fair play to you for that. I would summarise it as the following though:

- Scotland has very limited resources
- There ain't gonna be a 3rd pro team any time soon
- We do not have a steady production line of talent coming through
- Yes it isn't ideal to have to sign unknown foreign players, but in these instances they seem to be cheap squad filler that are good to go straight away in the professional environment. If you were relying on yong Scottish players it would take them a season or two just to get up to speed
- The Gray brothers are genetic freaks.

RDW_Scotland wrote:that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

To be honest I was not talking about specific positions, that guy you have signed from Australia is 21yrs old, surely you have sufficient players in Scotland already at that age and that position. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

RDW_Scotland wrote:- The Gray brothers are genetic freaks.

Yes I agree, so is George North.

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:- The Gray brothers are genetic freaks.

Yes I agree, so is George North.

I agree George North is in the same boat. A monster in his 20s.

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

To be honest I was not talking about specific positions, that guy you have signed from Australia is 21yrs old, surely you have sufficient players in Scotland already at that age and that position. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

Glasgow - none.

Edinburgh - Chris Dean and Chis Auld, both uncapped for Edinburgh.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

To be honest I was not talking about specific positions, that guy you have signed from Australia is 21yrs old, surely you have sufficient players in Scotland already at that age and that position. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

Glasgow - none.

Edinburgh - Chris Dean and Chis Auld, both uncapped for Edinburgh.

Glasgow- Jack Steele, Very good 12/13 in the EDP and is a big guy. Played v well in prem 1 this season. Physically bigger than the aussie signing.
Still keep harping on about Robbie Fergusson as well. One of the best young players I have seen in a long time.

One of this years U20s Patrick Kelly is physically ready to step up as well. Been playing pro for Le Parc in france in a very physical league and certainly looked very good for the U20s in the 6 nations.

There is certainly the young talent that is ready to step up but they just need to be given a chance before they are lost to rugby which has happened all too often in recent years.

Ps got an updated list of pro Scottish players that I will put up in the other thread.

Majestic83 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

To be honest I was not talking about specific positions, that guy you have signed from Australia is 21yrs old, surely you have sufficient players in Scotland already at that age and that position. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

Glasgow - none.

Edinburgh - Chris Dean and Chis Auld, both uncapped for Edinburgh.

Still keep harping on about Robbie Fergusson as well. One of the best young players I have seen in a long time.

He is an amazing kid - another young cancer survivor, in fact.

He is excellent but I will always be made fun of for saying that by dint of which Scottish club side Robbie came through.

Bet you can't guess which one it is.

Majestic83 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:that teenagers can be thrust into positions like second row and do well.

To be honest I was not talking about specific positions, that guy you have signed from Australia is 21yrs old, surely you have sufficient players in Scotland already at that age and that position. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

Glasgow - none.

Edinburgh - Chris Dean and Chis Auld, both uncapped for Edinburgh.

Glasgow- Jack Steele, Very good 12/13 in the EDP and is a big guy. Played v well in prem 1 this season. Physically bigger than the aussie signing.
Still keep harping on about Robbie Fergusson as well. One of the best young players I have seen in a long time.

If I'm not mistaken, these three have had turnouts in the various A games, and I think Auld has been an unused sub for Edinburgh. Going from memory here so could be talking nonsense.

Thanks Maj

I get a bit fed up of some folk immediately assuming that a NSQ signing is keeping a Scot out of a pro team. We aren't exactly producing a conveyor belt of talent; a few good players a year probably.
Like others, I doubted Solomons policy pre Crimbo but I think he HSS been vindicated now. OK, we are not a flashy team but results are improving and Scottish players are getting blooded - think Rory Sutherland and even McInally.
As regards today's announcement, I think the Week fans have to trust Townsend. He has done pretty well up until now.
Last point, I suspect more signings will be released piecemeal. The list of departures is quite a bit longer than the arrivals

When is Johnny Gray's contract up?

Just asking.