The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

[FootballLight]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry 24, I'm thinking of the World Cup again.

[Duty281]

Tremendous footwork by Sterling. Tidy penalty.

Game over. Eight out of eight. Closest rivals dispatched twice.

Well done Rooney.

[compelling and rich]

Typical Rooney performance, nothing of note all game then scores a pen

Cue morning papers all giving him mom

[Guest]

Hoddle having a mare. As for Wayne, basically penalties keeping him ticking along. Another paper over the cracks result.

[westisbest]

Top Corner, Keeper got nowhere near it - Glenn Hoddle.

Got a fairly large hand to it, Starting to wonder if he is high as a kite

Was just about to post that nando.

What the fk was he watching?

[Duty281]

Typical Rooney performance, nothing of note all game then scores a pen

It'll be exactly the same in France, minus the goals!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Hoddle shares in my admiration for the one man defensive machine that is Chris Smalling so he's not all that bad.

[Fernando]

Smalling gets MOTM

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Oxlade-Chamberlain and Milner have done nothing to place their name on the next starting XI. Clyne is limited but fine. Sterling was poor until winning the penalty. Forgot Barkley was playing.

Id have Shaw motm personally but Smalling has done well too. Hart did what he needed to do very well when called upon.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I can't work out if I think Sterling and Barkley have genuine potential or the whether the harsh truth is that neither of them are actually that good, both should have progressed more than they have in the past 18 months.

[GSC]

Now hes got his record can we start ushering him out the side.

[Duty281]

I'll go for a dull, laborious 2-0 England win.

Bang on. Smalling was the deserved man-of-the-match, and there were no other stand-out players.

England, as a team, were efficient and clinical enough to defeat their closest group rivals without breaking into a sweat. Which must bode well, in spite of everything else. Roy will have to wait until the friendlies against Spain/France/Germany before he gets a half-decent idea of where his team are, and what formation to deploy at the tournament proper.

Eight out of eight. Perfection.

(Disappointed to hear San Marino lost to a 92nd minute goal)

[Duty281]

Now hes got his record can we start ushering him out the side.

If only!

[Stella]

Now hes got his record can we start ushering him out the side.

If only!

Really? We're an average side, so need him more than ever.

[Fernando]

Now hes got his record can we start ushering him out the side.

If only!

Really? We're an average side, so need him more than ever.

That would require him to bring something to the side...Which currently apart from penalties he does not.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Were there any able replacements i'd be all for replacing him but he's still the best we've got.

[Duty281]

Now hes got his record can we start ushering him out the side.

If only!

Really? We're an average side, so need him more than ever.

He brings bugger all to England and its football team.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Ahh the Rooney bashing really begins. Beats a record. and its just an opportunity to insult him.

I can see his England stats from 2012 to now as played 34 scored 22. Reasonably happy with that. Always reasonably consistent team player, generally a burst of form scorer, captain, bags of experience in a young side. Not even sure we have anyone better regardless.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

[Duty281]

Scored 22 since 2012? 6 in friendlies (meaningless). 5 v San Marino.

Continual failure should not be tolerated, and Rooney at international level is a continual failure. He failed in 2006, he failed in 2010, he failed in 2012, he failed in 2014. He fails when it matters, no matter how much one uses statistics to paint a different reality.

It really is time, and has been for a while, to give someone else a chance. But no, the continual failure will be tolerated, and his inclusion in the first team locked up safer than a vault in the Bank of England, until...oh I don't know....another 5 years perhaps?

No England fan cares about him scoring from the spot in a pressure-free game against Switzerland, or putting two past Scotland in a meaningless friendly, or racking up the tally v San Marino.

An England fan wants him to do well against Portugal - where he failed. Or USA. Or Algeria. Or Germany. Or Italy. Italy again. Or Uruguay. All failures.

Two goals in major tournaments since 2004 - two tap-ins (minor credit for getting into the right position, but it's something you would expect). How many assists? One...v Italy last year?

[NickisBHAFC]

Abusing England's all time record scorer really does baffel the mind!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

So we drop everyone then? Cos no other f***er has performed for a long time at the business end of international fixtures.

You score against who you play. Any England fan who remembers the Brolly incident is also probably reasonably happy Rooney scores in qualifiers. I bet Dutch fans right now wish they had a player who only scored in qualifiers. A few of us were also quite happy to beat Scotland.

But hey, drop him. Play all the young players at once. Shove in Kane who can follow in the footsteps of Jones, Wilshere, Barkley, Sterling, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott and a few others on the journey to halted potential. Or Sturridge. Rely on Sturridge. More likely to stay fit for Strictly than he is an international tournament.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

And frankly, an England fan doesnt take the first opportunity he can to belittle a man who has managed to break a record that stood since 1970. "Fan" is a very loose term these days.

[Duty281]

England should drop players who fail constantly at major tournaments. I don't think anyone other than Rooney, in this present England incarnation, has failed constantly.

Individual records, in a team game, are largely meaningless. At least they should be. They make good headlines, and perhaps show the longevity of a player (can be good or bad). We all know that if Lineker had played for the same number of games as Rooney, then he would be well ahead. Michael Owen, too.

As for playing the youth, yes please. It seems to have worked for Germany - knocked out of the group stages in Euro 2004, World Champions ten years later. I bet they don't leave continual failures in the side. That side that so dismantled England in 2010 was an example of excellent transition from the U21 set up to the senior side.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Continual failures is your term and your term alone.

And Lineker didnt play so long because he wasnt good enough. Same for Michael Owen. Lineker failed miserably with many chances to break that record, Owen lost his battle with his body long before he had the chance. Rooney has done neither, and Rooney has battled the change in his physical limits as much as any striker.

No one is saying hes the best England striker ever. But hes not some s*** c*** who deserves nonsense spouted against him.

And Germany's pool has a depth ours cannot match.

[Duty281]

Continual failures is your term and your term alone.

And Lineker didnt play so long because he wasnt good enough. Same for Michael Owen. Lineker failed miserably with many chances to break that record, Owen lost his battle with his body long before he had the chance. Rooney has done neither, and Rooney has battled the change in his physical limits as much as any striker.

No one is saying hes the best England striker ever. But hes not some s*** c*** who deserves nonsense spouted against him.

And Germany's pool has a depth ours cannot match.

Well I believe Rooney has failed in the last four international tournaments he has participated in - how would you describe that? Or would you refute the claims of failure in those tournaments?

I'm not saying Rooney is some 's*** c***', he's a half-decent striker, but one that is horrendously overrated and seems to come with 'God' status by the media and some fans. He's played in five tournaments and delivered in one.

Germany would have shown him the door a long time ago. England make him captain.

German depth is greater? That's no excuse.

[Duty281]

"Before his record-equalling game in San Marino, England had played 105 games with Rooney and 41 without him. The win percentage without him (65.9%) may be greater than that with him (59.4%)"

This is a far more revealing statistic than how many goals Rooney has banged in.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Rooney the club player was bordering on world class between 06-12 but he's not come close to replicating that form for England, much of that is to do be the whole team under-performing but unlike Lineker he's never scored the team out of trouble. It's symptomatic of the national team as a whole that the only non defender who can hold his head up high this century is David Beckham.

[Guest]

Football is a team game. A forward requires service. Service from the midfield, service from wingers. Get rid of Rooney and who do you replace him with. Does it improve the team? Does England have the players to create a team that can beat the world's best teams? Do they have a good enough squad to carry them through a tournament. Questions questions questions for those that have all the answers, apparently.

[Ent]

Think people are just disappointed that the player who blitzed onto the scene who could beat men, create and score long range goals has transformed into a tap in merchant who can barely control a football.

The resentment then comes as he is england captain, record scorer and earning 300k a week at United.

Had he not offered that glimpse earlier on his career and always just trundled along with a good scoring rate he's be hero worshipped.

If when Rooney was 21 years old, having had euro 04, notable goals against arsenal, leeds, Newcastle, middleborough etc - someone had told you he'll pass charltons record when he was 29, could you have imagined him doing it in a more disappointing manner?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The Germany who still play Schweinstieger? And yeah, the fact Germany are the best side in the world and have depths of talent right now that they've never had before is probably why they have more and better players to pick.

I'd refute it by saying we've had no one else doing much better, so why is he to blame? The fact he's had one good tournament in his career puts him above Lampard. 

That revealing statistic probably doesn't really show anything considering tougher games will have had Rooney in.

[Mat]

England should drop players who fail constantly at major tournaments. I don't think anyone other than Rooney, in this present England incarnation, has failed constantly.

Individual records, in a team game, are largely meaningless. At least they should be. They make good headlines, and perhaps show the longevity of a player (can be good or bad). We all know that if Lineker had played for the same number of games as Rooney, then he would be well ahead. Michael Owen, too.

As for playing the youth, yes please. It seems to have worked for Germany - knocked out of the group stages in Euro 2004, World Champions ten years later. I bet they don't leave continual failures in the side. That side that so dismantled England in 2010 was an example of excellent transition from the U21 set up to the senior side.

Play the Under 21's who have failed to get out of the group at the last two major tournaments? I thought that's why we were dropping players from the senior side?

[Guest]

Think people are just disappointed that the player who blitzed onto the scene who could beat men, create and score long range goals has transformed into a tap in merchant who can barely control a football ...

I go along with Allan Shearer's take on the situation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34162692

Rooney has broken the record because of starting at an early age, his longevity, willingness to be called on to play for England in friendlies and qualifiers which includes against very weak sides.  Bobby Charlton was a midfielder, Rooney a "striker" in a different era.  There are other strikers who have a better strike rate than Rooney but didn't have the longevity.  Linekar, Jimmy Greaves, Nat Lofthouse, Shearer all have a better goals per game ratio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team#Top_goalscorers

Rooney is called in to do a lot of defensive midfield duties, he is told to work hard for the team, to organise the team.  He has been turned into a workhorse.  His skill levels, like the rest of the English team, are unspectacular and unremarkable.  But he gets in the right position for tap ins etc, when the ball is delivered to him.  He is a good player, a hard working player, but at world level he is nothing remarkable.  Same can be said of the English team - quite good, quarter final tournament material at best.

Everybody wants more from the English Football, from English players playing in the team, and from the English (or not so English) Manager.  The world game has moved on and English football hasn't.  Ultimately we need more talent spotting at an early level, better coaches, and an ethos that promotes skill over work rate and physicality.  Also the soils in England are heavy clay - which is not ideal for developing skill - one needs fast draining light soils.  Similarly the hunger at an early age isn't there - consumer - welfare society gives them certain expectations as to the rights for internet gaming and the like.


ps Thanks to Hoggy Bear below for filling in more detail on the Linekar and Charlton record. I don't know how many tap ins and penalties they scored nor how many weak sides and friendlies they played (although there are many more weaker teams around today - given that everyone plays football including the Faroe Islands and San Marino). We tend to remember Linekar and Charlton from a few of their top games when they contributed something remarkable in an important game.

[Hoggy_Bear]

[quote="Nore Staat"]

Rooney has broken the record because of starting at an early age, his longevity, willingness to be called on to play for England in friendlies and qualifiers which includes against very weak sides.  

Rooney has actually scored fewer goals in friendlies than either Charlton or Lineker. Both of those players also scored quite a few goals against 'weak' teams.Charlton scored 5 goals in major tournaments (World Cup or Euros), same as Rooney.

[Guest]

Rooney has broken the record because of starting at an early age, his longevity, willingness to be called on to play for England in friendlies and qualifiers which includes against very weak sides.  

Rooney has actually scored fewer goals in friendlies than either Charlton or Lineker. Both of those players also scored quite a few goals against 'weak' teams.Charlton scored 5 goals in major tournaments (World Cup or Euros), same as Rooney.

On reflection that seems about right - most games nowadays seem to be for qualifying for some tournament with the qualifying group filled with teams from fragmented countries (Yugoslavia into ...  Czechoslavakia into ...  Former Soviet Union into ...) plus the smaller teams (San Marino. Faroe Islands, Andorra ...).  So less friendlies ... there used to be more England - Scotland "friendlies" for example. There is also probably more international games nowadays.

[Guest]

Ps to broaden the debate out further.  In terms of culture and conditions there seems to be little to separate the two Anglo Saxon nations of Germany and England.  So the question could be why have Germany been so successful at football on the world stage compared to England. England only won the 1966 World Cup allegedly because of home advantage and an incorrect awarding of a goal that never was.

[Hero]

Think people are just disappointed that the player who blitzed onto the scene who could beat men, create and score long range goals has transformed into a tap in merchant who can barely control a football ...

I go along with Allan Shearer's take on the situation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34162692

Rooney has broken the record because of starting at an early age, his longevity, willingness to be called on to play for England in friendlies and qualifiers which includes against very weak sides.  Bobby Charlton was a midfielder, Rooney a "striker" in a different era.  There are other strikers who have a better strike rate than Rooney but didn't have the longevity.  Linekar, Jimmy Greaves, Nat Lofthouse, Shearer all have a better goals per game ratio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team#Top_goalscorers

Rooney is called in to do a lot of defensive midfield duties, he is told to work hard for the team, to organise the team.  He has been turned into a workhorse.  His skill levels, like the rest of the English team, are unspectacular and unremarkable.  But he gets in the right position for tap ins etc, when the ball is delivered to him.  He is a good player, a hard working player, but at world level he is nothing remarkable.  Same can be said of the English team - quite good, quarter final tournament material at best.

Everybody wants more from the English Football, from English players playing in the team, and from the English (or not so English) Manager.  The world game has moved on and English football hasn't.  Ultimately we need more talent spotting at an early level, better coaches, and an ethos that promotes skill over work rate and physicality.  Also the soils in England are heavy clay - which is not ideal for developing skill - one needs fast draining light soils.  Similarly the hunger at an early age isn't there - consumer - welfare society gives them certain expectations as to the rights for internet gaming and the like.


ps Thanks to Hoggy Bear below for filling in more detail on the Linekar and Charlton record.  I don't know how many tap ins and penalties they scored nor how many weak sides and friendlies they played (although there are many more weaker teams around today - given that everyone plays football including the Faroe Islands and San Marino).  We tend to remember Linekar and Charlton from a few of their top games when they contributed something remarkable in an important game.

Bang on with this paragraph. I've taken my son to training sessions with Premier League clubs and the level of training there is still light years behind Holland, Spain and Germany.

England has just 1,178 coaches at UEFA "A" level, compared with 12,720 in Spain and 5,500 in Germany. At "Pro" Licence level, England has 203 coaches, Spain 2,140 and Germany more than 1,000.

The basic FA Level 1 course is £150, while Level 2 rises to £340. Then comes a steep increase. The standard cost of a UEFA "B" License -- a prerequisite to work at a professional club's academy -- is £990, and it can cost as much as £2,450. In Germany, the cost is €430; in Spain it is €1,100. For the UEFA "A" License, an English coach could pay a maximum of £5,820 -- but in Germany it is €530 and in Spain €1,200.

[compelling and rich]

out of his 50 goals, rooney has only scored 5 against the top sides

1 v argentina, 2 v brazil, 1 v holland, 1 v uruguay

next best probably Russia or Croatia who i wouldn't class as top tier. a massive gap against the top european sides who he's played a few times suggest he doesn't deliver against the best

i used to support him, untill he continually regressed while earning more and more. his ego ever growing, handing transfer requests telling his team they should sign players while playing poorly on the pitch.

i think we can all agree that fergie had a decent record in judging players and he was ready to get rid because he could see all this.

[Duty281]

The Germany who still play Schweinstieger? And yeah, the fact Germany are the best side in the world and have depths of talent right now that they've never had before is probably why they have more and better players to pick.

I'd refute it by saying we've had no one else doing much better, so why is he to blame? The fact he's had one good tournament in his career puts him above Lampard. 

That revealing statistic probably doesn't really show anything considering tougher games will have had Rooney in.

And the statistics you've posted about Charlton-Rooney comparisons also don't show anything because Charlton was a midfielder! Not a striker.

Yes, he is above Lampard, but Lampard is gone from the team. So of course I won't be criticising him now.

Rooney is the only one in the present England squad who has been a constant failure, hence why he is currently to blame. No one else in the present England squad has fallen below standards for four successive tournaments. No one else in the England squad has been at that many tournaments!

[Guest]

If Rooney is so bad, why does Manchester United (a big team with a bottom line of pounds and pence) keep selecting him in their team.  Why do they keep picking him as Captain.  Why did Alex Ferguson, David Moyes, and now Louis van Gaal keep selecting him and supporting him?  Why does Bobby Charlton (a key figure at Man Utd) keep supporting him?  Why did Jose Mourinho make him a top target for Chelsea a few years back?

If Rooney is so bad and is an epitome of failure, why do all England Managers keep picking him.  Why has he been made England Captain.

Is it some sort of conspiracy?  Do all these people in the football game, these well respected and highly experienced managers with trophies galore (except with England of course) know nothing?  Has Manchester United and England been conned?   Answers on a postcard.

[Duty281]

I don't think Rooney is 'so bad', as I've said I think he's a half-decent striker, albeit one who has declined in ability over the past few years.

Why do all England managers keep picking him? It's a mystery! As is why Van Gaal persists with him.

I think if Alex Ferguson was still at Man United, then Rooney would not be. Ferguson was the only manager with the balls to drop him - Madrid in 2013 springs to mind.

[Guest]

I think workrate, drive, consistency, dependency, stamina are some of the reasons why he is being picked. If there was a more talented individual ready to replace him then I think he would be replaced.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Not only that, but his scoring rate for England is probably improved with age. Certainly any other competitor in that goal tally for England has slowed down with age, but Rooney is probably now better at picking up goals in less all round storming games than he used to be.

[Guest]

Amazed Rooney is the centre of attention or debate. We got much bigger problems in midfield. Essentially, we have no midfield. We've got no standout player, we have no partnerships, all the options offer the same & we have zero goal threat from midfield, hence why Rooney gets all our goals & still is in the bloody team. Throw in the fact, all our midfielders now spend more time on the injury table, than on the pitch, adds to the big issues we have. I'm sorry, but I can't see us even getting out of a group with Delph, Shelvey & Milner playing & even a returning Henderson goes pretty much anonymous vs top sides & is nothing special. As for Barkley & Sterling, you can bang on about potential & cream your pants at what they might turn out like, but I think you're going to disappointed, because at the minute, they offer very little.

[Duty281]

I think the midfield three that Hodgson will end up playing at Euro 2016 will be Wilshere-Carrick-Henderson, which bores me a great deal. I imagine Oxlade and Sterling will be entrusted with the wide roles, with Rooney up front. Hart is nailed-on as keeper. Shaw and Clyne will probably be the full-backs, with Cahill and Smalling in defence.

The only deviation will be if Roy decides a 4-4-2 diamond is the way to go, in which case Carrick will most likely be sacrificed for Kane.

But 4-3-3 will be the likely formation, with Kane/Barkley/Walcott/Townsend/Welbeck saved for the impact roles from the bench, and Milner on hand to tidy everything up if need be.

I think it will be dull and efficient, much like Euro 2012. And England will eke out one or two decent wins, perhaps if luck goes their way they'll stumble into the semi-finals, more by accident than anything.

A lot depends on the draw, though. And there's a last 16 this time around, isn't there?

[Hammersmith harrier]

Wow, who's hacked Duty's account, he's finally joined the rest of us in realising that England aren't worth bothering with and to always expect the worst.

[compelling and rich]

he still managed to sneak in that we might scrap through to the semis?!

one thing i would say about this euros is, is that there is barely a good team there. germans will start favourites. spain have been poor recently and france should do ok being at home. but other than that the teams look very poor

add the likes of iceland, n ireland being in there while holland croatia etc may not be, there should be some pretty straight forward groups. us being first seeds cant see us getting a hard group so we should at least get through that stage. we'll fall soon as we play anybody half decent

[Duty281]

I think England have stagnated in the past year, which is a great disappointment. There appears to be little chance of England playing in the manner they did against Italy in 2014, and every indication that England will be churning out something like they did in Kiev in 2012.

I certainly wouldn't rule England out of winning Euro 2016, but I honestly believe that Wales have a greater chance.

If I were a bookmaker, I'd be pricing England at around 25/1.

Germany the favourites, France just behind, the rest a long way back.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

You'd likely get cut apart by arbers. I think England will be close to half that price. Its a weak tournament, I'd be fairly confident in our ability beat every team currently topping their group except Spain and Germany, and Spain are not the terrifying side they were. I cannot quite believe the Welsh have scored only 9 goals.

If Germany start anything near or above 2/1 I'd throw money at them and just back France to win any 1 to 1 to cut my loss.

[Duty281]

Germany are currently 3/1, France 4/1. Spain 13/2. Belgium 10s. England at 12s. Italy 18s.

Then the rest.

I agree that it's a weak tournament, but I think England would be torn apart by France or Germany.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Forgot that France arent in qualifying. The top three in the betting are nailed on to beat England, but Belgium havent been able to top Wales' group so I don't fear them. I also dont think they'll ever deliver on the big stage.

With that information, I will be building a steady pot on Germany throughout the year with any spare change.

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