Your pre World Cup squad: England

First topic message reminder :

I think there are normally 50 people in one of these squads but the numbers are quite flexible. But with no international games between now and the squad being named, who makes your wider squad? And what questions will you be looking to answer in the three warm up games?

Front Row
Marler, Vunipola, Corbisiero, Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Cole, Wilson, Brookes.

All 9 men have recent international experience both in terms of hard caps and squad time. There's no one else really in contention and front row isn't an area you traditionally get bolters.

Questions I'd be looking to answer is can Corbisiero force his way back into the starting line up and Hartley or Young's at 2.

Second row
Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Attwood, Slater, Kruis.

Slater is the only controversial pick in there but his first cap is long overdue. Lancaster will pick the other 5 and no one will argue.

Our starting pair are a lock and I think everyone is fairly happy with Parling currently being third in the pecking order. So we need to establish our fourth choice early on. A lot will come down to training, but Lancaster will need to work out who that fourth choice is, and whether the fourth choice will make the plane.

Back Row
Robshaw, Wood, Armitage, Haskell, Kvesic, Vunipola, Morgan, Easter.

Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola and Morgan (if fit) pick themselves in the final squad. Easter covers Morgan (and second row) making him a must in the training squad and an attractive option if Morgan doesn't make the final squad. You don't just throw away 50 caps of experience so Haskell makes the wider squad for me, while Armitage and Kvesic get there on the strength of their club form.

The question for me relvolves around the starting back row. I don't think the balance is right and would look to experiment with Vunipola at 6 and Morgan at 8 and Armitage on the bench for the first match. With our locks both able to play 6, we should be able to facilitate more carriers in the back row. Once we lock in our starting back row we can fill the rest of the squad.

Half backs
Youngs, Care, Dickson, Wigglesworth, Ford, Farrell, Slade, Cipriani.

Only real left field selection here is Slade as a potential utility back. Cipriani is purely in as injury cover as I don't think he's versatile enough to be a third choice fly half and he won't go as one of the two.

I think the question to be answered is who is the second choice 9, can Care or Dickson usurp Wigglesworth? Youngs, Ford and Farrell are probably already booked in.

Centres
Barritt, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Burgess, Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly.

Barritt, Tuilagi and Joseph are already in the final squad, and for me I'd take those 3 only, with Slade, Farrell and Nowell also in the squad covering centre. After those 3, I think there are so many players who are much of a muchness and I think Lancaster would be wise to include them all in his squad to keep his options open. Should there be an injury Lancaster can then try to judge the form of the other players.

The question for me is what two to start with therefore. With 3 games you can try out each of the 3 combos from your 3 first choice centres or you can try two and give Slade a start at 13. But we need to nail our starting centre partnership as a matter of priority.

Back three
Nowell, Watson, May, Ashton, Wade, Brown, Foden, Goode.

Nowell, Watson, May and Brown all go to the World Cup with space for one more. With Nowell and Watson able to cover 15, that could be a winger or a full back. Ashton or Wade could get a hatful against Uruguay and secure a bonus point in that game.

First game I'd try Watson at full back to see whether that is a viable option, and I'd try one of my other wingers in his spot. After that, I think the starting 3 are pretty secure in their spots.

LondonTiger wrote:Perhaps it was just the difference between Ayerza/Youngs and Corbs(Waller)/Hartley but as I said above Francis was poor against us, struggled to do anything other than go down or back against us. This left him so tired he was walking from scrum to ruck.

Tommy Francis didn't play against Tigers - he was pulled from the squad through illness. Alex Brown started, Ex's 3rd choice TH.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Perhaps it was just the difference between Ayerza/Youngs and Corbs(Waller)/Hartley but as I said above Francis was poor against us, struggled to do anything other than go down or back against us. This left him so tired he was walking from scrum to ruck.

Tommy Francis didn't play against Tigers - he was pulled from the squad through illness. Alex Brown started, Ex's 3rd choice TH.

Hmm, ok. He was still announced as playing on the tannoy at kickoff, so perhaps no-one bothered to tell us. I therefore take it all backj, and will wait till I actually see him play before judging.

Someone else mentioned on another thread about our 'missing generation' from 2004 to 2010. I was wondering if that was actually correct?

Off the top of my head players that started their careers in that time frame are:

Cole
Manu
Youngs
Ashton
Foden
Hartley
Care
Wigglesworth
Croft


Might have missed some but they all started around '09/'10 and are still aroudn the EPS.

More interesting is how their careers have panned out. Of those 9 players only three have over 50 caps, Care, Cole and Hartley. Of the rest Manu, Foden and Croft have all had repeat long term injuries and barely managed a dozen games, certainly not on the bounce. Wigglesworth was dropped for a few seasons and is just coming back now, Ashton has been dropped and may never get back in the side. Ben Youngs has played on and off since his debut but has never managed to nail down the 9 shirt.

So yea that is pretty bad, especially if you go back before 2008. There's just no one, zilch, zero. Weird that four years of rugby just seemed to skip by and produce not a single player that's still around the England team now.

Pretty sure Tuilagi didn't get capped till 2011 Yappy.

There are others 2004-2010

Tait - 38 caps
Flood - 60 caps
Strettle - 14 caps
Varndell - 4 caps
Haskell - 58 caps - only one of these still in the England squad.
Cipriani - 12 caps - still around squad
Easyer - 58 caps - still around squad

LondonTiger wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Perhaps it was just the difference between Ayerza/Youngs and Corbs(Waller)/Hartley but as I said above Francis was poor against us, struggled to do anything other than go down or back against us. This left him so tired he was walking from scrum to ruck.

Tommy Francis didn't play against Tigers - he was pulled from the squad through illness. Alex Brown started, Ex's 3rd choice TH.

Hmm, ok. He was still announced as playing on the tannoy at kickoff, so perhaps no-one bothered to tell us. I therefore take it all backj, and will wait till I actually see him play before judging.

I did wonder why you were so harsh on him as he's been excellent when I've seen him. Francis not playing that game would explain it.

beshocked wrote:There are others 2004-2010

Tait - 38 caps
Flood - 60 caps
Strettle - 14 caps
Varndell - 4 caps
Haskell - 58 caps - only one of these still in the England squad.
Cipriani - 12 caps - still around squad
Easyer - 58 caps - still around squad

Of course!

Still that's 11 players all in all, from 6 years. Of which only maybe 6 are regulars in the team now and all of those are below 70 caps

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:There are others 2004-2010

Tait - 38 caps
Flood - 60 caps
Strettle - 14 caps
Varndell - 4 caps
Haskell - 58 caps - only one of these still in the England squad.
Cipriani - 12 caps - still around squad
Easyer - 58 caps - still around squad

Of course!

Still that's 11 players all in all, from 6 years. Of which only maybe 6 are regulars in the team now and all of those are below 70 caps

The list you are looking for is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players#2000-2009

There are some experienced players who have now retired (at least from the international game), such as Andrew Sheridan, Matt Stevens and Mark Cueto. Monye and Flutey both made the 2007 Lions tour. Around that time, injuries denied us people such as Forrester, Rees and Ward-Smith, while also sidelining talent like Simpson Daniel. Delon Armitage would probably have a lot of caps now if he'd stayed in England and managed to avoid constant bans.

You could write a pocket biography of all the players in that Wikipedia list and form/injury would probably explain why most of them don't have more caps.

What about other youngsters who didn't make it through injury?

Tom Rees
James Forrester
James Simpson Daniel
etc etc

Around that time, injuries denied us people such as Forrester, Rees and Ward-Smith, while also sidelining talent like Simpson Daniel

Sorry Rugby Fan you beat me to it....

Which was the tour of NZ when our backrow was

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

And was outstanding....

It was me who said that about a missing generation - thanks yappy, probably more suited to here anyway. The point was in reference to looking at Wales and Ireland and seeing players who are around 30 with 70-90 caps at least. It is not a coincidence to me that the last time we picked a very experienced team, we won the 2011 Six Nations. Thompson, Shaw, Tindall, Wilkinson, Sheridan, Easter, Cueto.

I have thought for the last year that the first thing this England team will win will be next summers tour to Australia, and I genuinely believe we have a great shot at that. At the very least, we should be able to pick a team with about 500 starting caps. That hasn't happened for a few years.

Does anyone know the latest on the Armitage court situation? There seems to be a press blackout on mentioning it since it went back for further investigation.
Picking him with that still unresolved or if he is found guilty would put the whole dwarfgate thing into perspective in terms of scandal. Its bad enough having on the field thugs like Clark banging around the squad but the prosecution story of what Armitage did is pretty awful.
Selecting him is a huge risk for creating unwanted attention from the press and for dividing the dressing room.
Abendanon would be less controversial but also the requirement for him is less exceptional, its not like he has been amongst the best in europe in his position for several years like Stefon. Hes had a good season.
It would be a real sign of desperation to select him now. As would Burgess who England see as a 12 but is now playing as a flanker. Hes not ready for either position interregionally.

Wouldn't pick Armitage or Abendanon, but Clark has been outstanding this season despite his awful previous do we really not give second chances?

I've already said I can see Burgess being in the squad at 6, a run of games and I can see a clamour for him.

If Clark is still in the form he has been in most of the season then he definitely should be given another chance.

He is a tough uncompromising player and you need players like that.

He made a ridiculous decision in that game he served the ban he was given (maybe it should have been longer but that was the RFU's decision)...he has shown he is sorting that out. His discipline is very good.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wouldn't pick Armitage or Abendanon, but Clark has been outstanding this season despite his awful previous do we really not give second chances?

I've already said I can see Burgess being in the squad at 6, a run of games and I can see a clamour for him.

Ewers should definitely be involved then...as he's far ahead of Burgess.

I'd agree with that Geordie, picking it now ewers would be ahead. I'm saying if Burgess gets a run of games at 6 until the world cup I think he'll go.

To be fair Burgess actually looked fairly handy at 6, far better than as a centre. I agree there will be a media bandwagon for him if he keeps getting game time but its hard to imagine him getting in instead of Wood or Haskell!

The recent clamour for Abendanon is odd. He isn't doing anything different for Clermont than he was for Bath for the last few seasons, the difference being he is now doing it in a team with superstars on a higher stage. I am still baffled by the inclusion of both Goode and Pennell ahead of him a season or so ago when we were crying out for an alternative attacking option rather than 'just give it to Manu'.
Hard to see SL picking him now though.

Lifted from the telegraph and the other thread:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11547390/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-will-snub-Steffon-Armitage-for-Rugby-World-Cup-squad-and-rightly-so.html wrote:Thirty-one appears to be the magic number. For it is on Aug 31 that Lancaster has to name a 31‑man squad. It will be 31 this year as opposed to 30 in 2011 for the simple reason that match-day squads, with two props now required on the bench, comprise 23 compared to 22 back then.
Before a 45-man training squad will be announced next month, with another squad to play the Barbarians on May 31 revealed at the same time (probably with no players overlapping the two squads), then five weeks of training, three at Pennyhill Park and two in Denver, before there is some paring down for two Tests against France in August. Then the 31-man squad will be named before a final warm-up Test against Ireland on Sept 5.
It appears that the 31 will comprise 17 forwards and 14 backs. Up front they will pick five props, three hookers, four locks and five back-rowers. Behind, they will go for three scrum-halves, two fly-halves, four centres and five back-three players.

So who are the players we can say are guaranteed a place (fitness permitting)?

For me:

Marler, Mako, Hartley, Youngs, Cole, Wilson, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan, Billy (13)

Youngs, Wigglesworth, Care, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Tuilagi, Nowell, Brown, Goode (10)


That would leave 4 spots open in forwards and backs.

Forwards:

there will be a 3rd hooker, Webber is surely the favourite. Then he can take either one prop and both a second row and back row, or two props and a utility forward. Whichever Corbs is surely going?


Backs:

We probably need an out and out inside centres - Barritt, Burrell and 36 all competing. We need someone who can cover 10 and 12 maybe (Farrell though could count here) which is probably between Cipriani and Slade. A second winger, probably Watson who covers FB too, and then a 3rd winger.

I think Watson is nailed on in the squad LT. Plus as you say he covers wing and FB.

Barritt also is a nailed on. In fact he'd be my starting 12 if we start Ford and Joseph.

I reckon we still need to see Barritt play a few games before he is nailed on. His stock has largely risen because he was injured and not playing.

I would also say due to Burrell and Twelvetrees lack of performances.

And we know what Barritt does. He's very consistant at it as well. It didn't work with Farrell...but with Ford and Joseph or Manu at 13 its far more balanced.

Im not sure who else has put their hand up for the spot.

I reckon Barritt is now the front runner - but until he puts some games together far from nailed on is all.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Watson is nailed on in the squad LT. Plus as you say he covers wing and FB.

Barritt also is a nailed on. In fact he'd be my starting 12 if we start Ford and Joseph.

Barritt has so far been anonymous in his two games back, I really wouldn't wabt him coming straight back into the team. He offers nothing in this form other then defense, which Sarries just emphatically proved isn't enough on its own to win the big games. Especially with Fords dodge kicking.

Wasn't Ford at 80% in the 6Ns?

LondonTiger wrote:Wasn't Ford at 80% in the 6Ns?

Not quite, Tiger. These numbers are from StatBunker.com:[th]Players[/th][th]Club[/th][th]CA[/th][th]C[/th][th]PA[/th][th]P[/th][th]Total[/th][th]TS[/th][th]R%[/th]

George Ford	England	16	13	16	12	32	25	78.13%
Leigh Halfpenny	Wales	6	3	20	18	26	21	80.77%
Jonathan Sexton	Ireland	6	6	20	16	26	22	84.62%
Camille Lopez	France	2	1	15	11	17	12	70.59%
Greig Laidlaw	Scotland	5	4	11	11	16	15	93.75%
Jules Plisson	France	5	4	5	3	10	7	70%
Kelly Haimona	Italy	4	1	6	3	10	4	40%
Daniel Biggar	Wales	7	6	1	1	8	7	87.5%
Ian Keatley	Ireland	1	1	4	4	5	5	100%
Luciano Orquera	Italy	2	2	2	1	4	3	75%
Tommaso Allan	Italy	2	2	2	-	4	2	50%
Rory Kockott	France	2	-	1	1	3	1	33.33%
Scott Spedding	France	-	-	2	1	2	1	50%
Danny Cipriani	England	2	1	-	-	2	1	50%
Ian Madigan	Ireland	1	1	1	1	2	2	100%
Stuart Hogg	Scotland	-	-	1	-	1	-	0%
Finn Russell	Scotland	1	1	-	-	1	1	100%
Morgan Parra	France	-	-	1	-	1	-	0%

CA = Conversion attempts ,
C = Conversion scored ,
PA = Penalties attempts ,
P = Penalties scored,
Total = Total appearances ,
TS = Total success,
R% = Rate procentage.

He's not a bad kicker but could and should improve. Barritt is benefitting from not being in the team, when he comes back he'll face the same criticisms about lack of creativity though with joseph and Ford it may not be as noticeable and a bit more balanced. Not sure he would get into SA, Aus and NZ teams but they tend to focus on different strengths.

Anything below 80% isn't great at Int level.

We know Ford isn't the best kicker and it's an area he needs to improve without doubt. 78% is a decent return but he needs to get better

Well, remove the 3 kicks that were quite obviousley outside of his range (Laidlaw as skipper makes sure he does not do this) and it is a whole different picture.


Yes Ford needs to keep working on his goal-kicking. It shoudl be pointed out though that we do not any goalkickers on fantastic form in terms of success percentage.

In AP this season the various England contenders have performed as follows:

Myler 73/101 72%
Ford 58/72 81%
Cipriani 52/71 71%
Burns 44/59 75%
Slade 38/49 78%
Farrell 28/35 80%

Cipriani has picked up, he was low 60's last time I checked.

Ford doesn't often take on difficult kicks so should really be higher imo. It's a work in progress but quite a key skill in close games.

To be fair Ford did have to take a lot more kicks than the others. 16 conversion attempts

Ford takes a lot of touchline conversions.

burns was well belo 60% at the half way point - so has picked up too. Whichever way you cut it though, right now the AP goalkickers seem to be making it look difficult.

I imagine all kickers take touchline conversions, it was the distance I was pushing at.

Agree that nobody is exactly shining. I seen that Lambie in super rugby was in the mid 90's a few weeks back.

Not sure what Laidlaw is kicking for the Cherries but it must be 85% at least. The last 6 Nations, the most accurate goalkicker for England was Toby Flood with 8 out of 8.

Ford is a wonderful young player but this is one of the areas of his game which requires a little work.

Madigan wasn't 100%. He missed at least one kick, very prominently, at Murrayfield. Calls into question the accuracy of the data from StatBunker.com.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I imagine all kickers take touchline conversions, it was the distance I was pushing at.

Apologies, the point I was trying to make, is that he is successful with a lot of touchline conversions - and as such trying to suggest his accuracy is improving.

His effective range is probably only 45m, but this is a good 5m further than when with us - plus his accuracy is well improved. Both need to continue to improve, but at the same time captains need to make sensible decisions. against Leinster the one penalty he missed was a 50m kick - his longest successful kick all season is 48m. Dumb decision by Hooper.

This in turn reminded me of the Tigers/Chiefs game recently. Leading by 10 points with less than two minutes to go, we got a penalty on the touchline just in Chiefs half. Not sure who was captain by then (Youngs had been replaced) but burns was clear he did not have the range. I felt we should be pushing the ball into the corner, to keep possession and pressure - especially against a play-off rival. Instead Tommy Bell was asked to have a go, and he came up short. Chiefs wrun the ball back and get an easy penalty to secure the LBP. Players and captains need to understand their percentages better and make sensible decisions.