Ospreys boss Andrew Hore hits out at Welsh rugby claiming action must be taken on game which is in a 'time-warp'

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ospreys-boss-andrew-hore-hits-8973995

Well, that is an interesting read, I will say one thing, why not try looking at what you have done Andrew ? Instead of blaming everybody else look at how you are running things.

What do you mean ?.
What has Andrew Hore done?.

Does this guy come up with solutions or just moan?

thespreys wrote:What do you mean ?.
What has Andrew Hore done?.

Well from what I can make of it, he is STILL blaming the WRU for the short commings of the regions, when infact, as a CEO of one of the regions, what has he done to make anything better ? He seems to think that the regions should get ALL the tele money instead of having the WRU to do the tele deals, now if he has it that way, where would the grass roots funding come from ? Instead of grizzling, make some suggestions.

cp10 wrote:Does this guy come up with solutions or just moan?

He's come up with ideas in the past before now, so the answer is yes I spose.

I agree with everything Hore says. He is NOT blaming the Union. He is encouraging them to work together with the rest of Welsh rugby to "plug the gaps".

How can you disagree with that?

Chunky Norwich wrote:I agree with everything Hore says. He is NOT blaming the Union. He is encouraging them to work together with the rest of Welsh rugby to "plug the gaps".

How can you disagree with that?

Free sandwiches?

Wouldnt disagree with some of his sentiments but to be fair Hore moans a lot. In New Zealand they just accept it and move on with it. Anyone would think Wales are the first nation to ever have their best players poached.

In truth the recent development officers by the WRU under Josh Lewsey is the beginning of the WRU trying to address youth rugby and playing numbers at all levels in general. If they can then introduce quality coaching to go along with this then we could end up generating more than enough talent to comfortably combat our best players leaving. People forget all our key players started out somewhere and without oppertunities to devlop wouldnt have got where they are today. So as Jiffy says, when a star leaves it opens a spot for a youngster to prove themselves which in turn helps out the national side as well.

So therefore the WRU are correct in making sure they dont just fund the regions who will always maintain they are poorer than everyone else and actually fund the grass roots of the game properly to allow enough talent to actually come through that should be playing pro rugby.

We have around 160-200 paid professional rugby players in Wales and in all honesty the truth is the average player in those squads is not of high enough calibre to allow us to compete. The regions maintain with more money they can buy better players but my question is why sign a player if you know he's not good enough? Surely you may as well just sign a youngster up and invest in him instead. If you look at the budget of the Blues for example you really have to wonder whats going on there because there is no way they have less money than either Connacht or Edinburgh (or even the Scarlets for that matter) but they have so many dire players on their roster it's no suprise they are performing poorly. It's almost as if half the signings are with a view to make sure they dont make internationals either by them lacking genuine ability or by being foreign project players that cant play for wales. Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally? Just my view though....

That is exactly how I see it WM.

“What is that burning platform? Where do you start? Low player numbers, Premier League football, lack of a commercialised outlook, the strong commercialisation of the game outside Wales allied to big TV deals, issues with our governance structure, Welsh players being targeted by clubs with bigger budgets."




Unfortunately for Hore, most of his complaints are either out-of-his-hands or statements of the obvious.

Premier League football - Well what can Welsh rugby do about the ever invasive Obession with and Addiction to bloody Premiership "Thought-the-lad-did-ever-so-well-when-he-came on" Football?  
It's an epidemic of media spin and massive business interests, so who can stop it?  'Not I', says Welsh Rugby.  You can't turn-off Premiership Football at source and pretend it isn't there.  So what's the point in bringing that up?

lack of a commercialised outlook - Really?  I thought all of last year showed just how much all sides (WRU and Regions) were all too aware of commercial outlook.  And the battle created a lot of enemies and seems to be only partially solved.  But for Hore to go through last year and still think commercial outlook is not on the agenda of Welsh rugby - well he's deluded there too.

the strong commercialisation of the game outside Wales allied to big TV deals - Again, out of Hore's hands.  These places (France and England) are big places.  Lots of people, many chimney pots.  Lots of scope for commercial interests trying to get a foothold on that viewership and being prepared to cough up the money to get to it.  You can't stop it - and with small populations, you can't really compete very well either.  Population sizes means money generation.

Welsh players being targeted by clubs with bigger budgets . - Inevitably.  Welsh players prove themselves good - greedy clubs with money come to tempt them away.  Back to the issue above about large populations generating the marketing interest that then allows clubs in those areas to come with big offers and hoover up the competition on the fringes.



The untethered Professionalism of the game in Europe that is increasingly becoming just like Premiership football - with all restraints being lifted gradually; eg. salary caps - WILL suck up best players and best coaches into a much more exclusive top bundle.  Those five or so sides will finally become the Super Teams they crave to be - with a worldwide following just like Premiership Football teams.  
Most of the other clubs in each of the three Leagues will then become nothing but feeder clubs for the big four or five European Super Teams.

But that's where most people wanted to go, it seems.  'Can't stop Professionalism' and all that guff from last year.  It's also where the Regions themselves wanted to go last year.  Deregulation - let the market decide whether Regions/Provinces/Clubs exist at the top or cease to exist at all.  Allow clubs to charge for everything.  Allow a more robust market-driven climate where little clubs sell off their promising young players to the highest bidders.  Allow clubs to be more demanding of their Unions when being compensated for International players being away for extended periods. Etc Etc.  Let the market decide survival or capitulation. 

Well, the market will decide and there'll be nothing cosy or traditionalist about its decisions.  If the market decides that club or Regional rugby in Wales or elsewhere dies, then it'll die.  But let's not forget that turkeys did vote for Christmas in the charade of last year, so they can't be too shocked if the day arrives when they're sent to be plucked.

In time I can see Wales falling back to one or two sustainable Regions and Ireland falling back to one or two mildly competitive Provinces, and Scotland maybe retaining one team with any hope of competing.  But everyone will love the new Dawn, whereby the Also-Ran teams get big money dripped down to them from on high and yet never get a hint of reaching the top of the pile or winning anything substantial.  
That's Premiership Football.... teams happy to live at the bottom whilst still 'making money' and remaining 'viable businesses'.  And they'll have their big play-off days every year whereby they might avoid relegation!!!  Wey Heh!!!! - the excitment of it all.  But as long as fans have 'viable businesses' to support it seems that's the modern idea of Success.

Hore, you've lost, the market is winning.

SecretFly wrote:

In time I can see Wales falling back to one or two sustainable Regions and Ireland falling back to one or two mildly competitive Provinces, and Scotland maybe retaining one team with any hope of competing. .

So you fully agree that Celtic domestic rugby is heading towards an unprecedented crisis, but are unwilling to change the structure and fight for a new competition to stop that?

What sort of backwards, villagist, selfish attitude is that?

You haven't a clue where Professionalism is going Chunky and that's your main problem.  You think it's a rosey garden of lambs a leaping and banks full of lovely money - and it's not.  It's thorns and dying.  But if you want to see rugby in Wales die completely then keep up the idea that being at the bottom of a League but getting more money is where fans of the sport want to be.

You're an economist not a rugby follower.  But don't worry - rugby is going your way.  You'll be a happy Saracens fan in about 10 years as they look out for your 'local' interests in Europe and have about seven or eight best Welsh players in the squad - though not necessarily on the first team

Enjoy the future - it's going your way.  Don't be so forlorn and sad.  Buy your Saracens scarf early.

Hore forgot to moan about the Irish having a stranglehold on the Pro12. Seems weird he would neglect to mention that, when he must be locked in a day-to-day tussle. Maybe he didn't speak of it because he didn't want booted out of the league by the IRFU?

Or is he actually suggesting that the Welsh are culpable themselves for some of their own problems? Seems a bit far-fetched.

Don Alfonso wrote:Hore forgot to moan about the Irish having a stranglehold on the Pro12. Seems weird he would neglect to mention that, when he must be locked in a day-to-day tussle. Maybe he didn't speak of it because he didn't want booted out of the league by the IRFU?

Or is he actually suggesting that the Welsh are culpable themselves for some of their own problems? Seems a bit far-fetched.

Your sarcasm here suggests you've been sucked in by one or two known WUMs on this site into believing that their view is one held by the majority in Wales, and indeed the view of the clubs. No-one outside the odd few posters on here believe the Irish are controlling the league. The regions do not. The WRU do not. 99.9% of the fans do not.

No, I know. It was a cheap jibe at those posters specifically.

Apologies to you and all the other decent posters - don't want to derail your thread.

In all seriousness - as an outsider, I'm not sure what exactly he means. His points make sense, but are really quite nebulous.

How does the prioritisation of the national team over the regions actually manifest itself? Is that the biggest issue? What can be done in a nuts and bolts way?

I ask because the regions seem pretty unloved, and I wonder if there is something tio be learned from Ulster, who have spent the last few years working hard to raise visibility and popularity of the sport amongst the Nationalist community, some of whom dislike rugby for very deep-seated cultural reasons, quite possibly a great deal more challenging to overcome than the dispassionate reception the regions get.

They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

Wales have exactly the same issues as ireland and scotland in the pro 12. Why can ireland and scotland do better? is suspect its because ireland and Scotland pro 12 teams are under direct union control so other issues than the bank balance can be considered. certainly there is no great difference in playing budgets. Scotland even has the same region / club issues ( see the failure of the borders team)

Don Alfonso wrote:
They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

And all the money ploughed into the province to buy South Africans, New Zealanders and Australians would you not include Don ?

TJ wrote:Wales have exactly the same issues as ireland and scotland in the pro 12.  Why can ireland and scotland do better?  is suspect its because ireland and Scotland pro 12 teams are under direct union control so other issues than the bank balance can be considered.  certainly there is no great difference in playing budgets.  Scotland even has the same region / club issues ( see the failure of the borders team)

This.

How some still can't see that baffles me.

It's all the Regions fault

Don Alfonso wrote:I ask because the regions seem pretty unloved, and I wonder if there is something tio be learned from Ulster, who have spent the last few years working hard to raise visibility and popularity of the sport amongst the Nationalist community, some of whom dislike rugby for very deep-seated cultural reasons, quite possibly a great deal more challenging to overcome than the dispassionate reception the regions get.

They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30486749

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

And all the money ploughed into the province to buy South Africans, New Zealanders and Australians would you not include Don ?

Yeah, that'll work. Get people uninterested in a sport to engage with it by telling them the team they don't support now have expensive players from abroad that they've never heard of or seen play. That'll be much more effective than grassroots work . Genius.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I ask because the regions seem pretty unloved, and I wonder if there is something tio be learned from Ulster, who have spent the last few years working hard to raise visibility and popularity of the sport amongst the Nationalist community, some of whom dislike rugby for very deep-seated cultural reasons, quite possibly a great deal more challenging to overcome than the dispassionate reception the regions get.

They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30486749

Erm. .. okaaaaaay. ..

Munchkin wrote:It's all the Regions fault

Partly i'd say. All have fiddled while Rome burnt imo. Mine seem to be in bonkers Limbo land again at the moment although i'm hoping something is going on behind the scenes to sort it. The good thing for me is PRW. The 4 are united at last. We can thank Dodger for that I reckon.

Don Alfonso wrote:I ask because the regions seem pretty unloved,

I'd agree with you there. Why though, in your opinion?

LordDowlais wrote:That is exactly how I see it WM.

Jump to the left LD.

Dunno, Dave. That's just going on what Welsh posters in here have told me, and the comparative attendances. I know they don't have the history of the provinces, and there are issues with senses of local identity.

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

And all the money ploughed into the province to buy South Africans, New Zealanders and Australians would you not include Don ?

Yeah, that'll work. Get people uninterested in a sport to engage with it by telling them the team they don't support now have expensive players from abroad that they've never heard of or seen play.  That'll be much more effective than grassroots work . Genius.

No. I am on about your significant success, rather than it all being down to a coherent, co-ordinated approach and symbiotic relationships, it could perhaps be down to the fact that Ulster have splashed the cash on players from the SH.

Welshmushroom wrote:Wouldnt disagree with some of his sentiments but to be fair Hore moans a lot.  In New Zealand they just accept it and move on with it.  Anyone would think Wales are the first nation to ever have their best players poached.

In truth the recent development officers by the WRU under Josh Lewsey is the beginning of the WRU trying to address youth rugby and playing numbers at all levels in general.  If they can then introduce quality coaching to go along with this then we could end up generating more than enough talent to comfortably combat our best players leaving.  People forget all our key players started out somewhere and without oppertunities to devlop wouldnt have got where they are today.  So as Jiffy says, when a star leaves it opens a spot for a youngster to prove themselves which in turn helps out the national side as well.

So therefore the WRU are correct in making sure they dont just fund the regions who will always maintain they are poorer than everyone else and actually fund the grass roots of the game properly to allow enough talent to actually come through that should be playing pro rugby.  

We have around 160-200 paid professional rugby players in Wales and in all honesty the truth is the average player in those squads is not of high enough calibre to allow us to compete.  The regions maintain with more money they can buy better players but my question is why sign a player if you know he's not good enough?  Surely you may as well just sign a youngster up and invest in him instead.  If you look at the budget of the Blues for example you really have to wonder whats going on there because there is no way they have less money than either Connacht or Edinburgh (or even the Scarlets for that matter) but they have so many dire players on their roster it's no suprise they are performing poorly.  It's almost as if half the signings are with a view to make sure they dont make internationals either by them lacking genuine ability or by being foreign project players that cant play for wales.  Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

Don Alfonso wrote:Dunno, Dave.  That's just going on what Welsh posters in here have told me,  and the comparative attendances. I know they don't have the history of the provinces,  and there are issues with senses of local identity.

Yeah you're quite right and if you go elsewhere, you'll discover total hatred for the so called "regions" amongst Welsh rugby supporters. Regionalism meant well, as in to bring Welsh rugby into the real world, but it was a horlicks of a compromise and it's still being argued about today.

Welshmushroom wrote:If you look at the budget of the Blues for example

What is it? Do tell.

Welshmushroom wrote:Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Nope. Where did you get that idea from?

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
They've had significant success, but that owes a great deal to a coherent, co-ordinated approach that's possible because the Ulster Branch are part of the IRFU, and Ulster Rugby obviously have what's really a symbiotic relationship.

And all the money ploughed into the province to buy South Africans, New Zealanders and Australians would you not include Don ?

Yeah, that'll work. Get people uninterested in a sport to engage with it by telling them the team they don't support now have expensive players from abroad that they've never heard of or seen play.  That'll be much more effective than grassroots work . Genius.

No. I am on about your significant success, rather than it all being down to a coherent, co-ordinated approach and symbiotic relationships, it could perhaps be down to the fact that Ulster have splashed the cash on players from the SH.

But the significant success I was referring to was success in attracting the Nationalist community in recent years. That's fairly obvious, my man.

Don Alfonso wrote:

But the significant success I was referring to was success in attracting the Nationalist community in recent years. That's fairly obvious, my man.

That's why the refs don't want to now give yous yellow or red cards Nod, nod, wink, wink...........................

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Wouldnt disagree with some of his sentiments but to be fair Hore moans a lot.  In New Zealand they just accept it and move on with it.  Anyone would think Wales are the first nation to ever have their best players poached.

In truth the recent development officers by the WRU under Josh Lewsey is the beginning of the WRU trying to address youth rugby and playing numbers at all levels in general.  If they can then introduce quality coaching to go along with this then we could end up generating more than enough talent to comfortably combat our best players leaving.  People forget all our key players started out somewhere and without oppertunities to devlop wouldnt have got where they are today.  So as Jiffy says, when a star leaves it opens a spot for a youngster to prove themselves which in turn helps out the national side as well.

So therefore the WRU are correct in making sure they dont just fund the regions who will always maintain they are poorer than everyone else and actually fund the grass roots of the game properly to allow enough talent to actually come through that should be playing pro rugby.  

We have around 160-200 paid professional rugby players in Wales and in all honesty the truth is the average player in those squads is not of high enough calibre to allow us to compete.  The regions maintain with more money they can buy better players but my question is why sign a player if you know he's not good enough?  Surely you may as well just sign a youngster up and invest in him instead.  If you look at the budget of the Blues for example you really have to wonder whats going on there because there is no way they have less money than either Connacht or Edinburgh (or even the Scarlets for that matter) but they have so many dire players on their roster it's no suprise they are performing poorly.  It's almost as if half the signings are with a view to make sure they dont make internationals either by them lacking genuine ability or by being foreign project players that cant play for wales.  Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

No Dave, that's my national side. I'm sure I don't need to clarify the difference to you.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

No Dave, that's my national side.  I'm sure I don't need to clarify the difference to you.

You certainly don't WM and you've been very pro WRU all along.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Nope. Where did you get that idea from?

The alternative would imply to have professionals not capable of playing international rugby. That's a great mentality to have but sadly wont win the regions any silverware. Surely the point should be to drive standards higher to produce a better Pro12 and more regional success, which will in turn generate more growth in the league. Sadly I sense there is no reasoning with you as per usual.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

No Dave, that's my national side.  I'm sure I don't need to clarify the difference to you.

You certainly don't WM and you've been very pro WRU all along.

No but I clearly do have to explain the difference to you between the National side and the WRU. Sorry to say it because I know its a dirty word to you Dave but I can support both my regional team and Wales when they play.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Nope. Where did you get that idea from?

The alternative would imply to have professionals not capable of playing international rugby.  That's a great mentality to have but sadly wont win the regions any silverware.  Surely the point should be to drive standards higher to produce a better Pro12 and more regional success, which will in turn generate more growth in the league.  Sadly I sense there is no reasoning with you as per usual.

Foreign players ok with you now then?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

No Dave, that's my national side.  I'm sure I don't need to clarify the difference to you.

You certainly don't WM and you've been very pro WRU all along.

No but I clearly do have to explain the difference to you between the National side and the WRU. Sorry to say it because I know its a dirty word to you Dave but I can support both my regional team and Wales when they play.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Your region is Wales isn't it WM?

No Dave, that's my national side.  I'm sure I don't need to clarify the difference to you.

You certainly don't WM and you've been very pro WRU all along.

No but I clearly do have to explain the difference to you between the National side and the WRU.  Sorry to say it because I know its a dirty word to you Dave but I can support both my regional team and Wales when they play.    

Go on then and while you're at it explain the 150 Welsh players comment.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Surely the idea should be that our 150 players in wales should all have the capability of playing for wales internationally?  Just my view though....

Nope. Where did you get that idea from?

The alternative would imply to have professionals not capable of playing international rugby.  That's a great mentality to have but sadly wont win the regions any silverware.  Surely the point should be to drive standards higher to produce a better Pro12 and more regional success, which will in turn generate more growth in the league.  Sadly I sense there is no reasoning with you as per usual.

Foreign players ok with you now then?

Your funny Dave. Well I hope you are or you really are a man with a chip on his shoulder. As I have posted many times before I have no issues whatsoever when we recruit top draw players regardless of nationality. Tuculet for example has been an excellent signing for the Blues. I just don't see the benefit of signing overseas players who are simply not good enough. My main reason for this is because I believe it sends the wrong message to young rugby players out there. After all shouldn't the aim be for us to have a system in place that allows youngsters in wales to become pro rugby players without pathways becoming blocked by players that do not provide enough of a benefit to the teams they are playing for. Equally I would apply this to Welsh players in turn as well so if your not good enough you shouldn't be playing regional rugby either - that's assuming we are trying to improve regional rugby of course.

Don Alfonso wrote:But the significant success I was referring to was success in attracting the Nationalist community in recent years. That's fairly obvious, my man.

Yes and I agree, but to say that buying in SH stars to boost the success has nothing to do with it is wrong, I remember only about five or so years ago, it might have been a bit longer, when teams like Scarlets were going to Belfast and humping Ulster,there were no sell out stadiums then, then the province bought in a few SH stars, the results came and so did the fans, so to not include the money ploughed in bit is unfair.

Also, can I please add on this thread, I think Welshmushroom is 100% bang on the mark with EVERYTHING he is saying on this topic.

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:But the significant success I was referring to was success in attracting the Nationalist community in recent years. That's fairly obvious, my man.

Yes and I agree, but to say that buying in SH stars to boost the success has nothing to do with it is wrong, I remember only about five or so years ago, it might have been a bit longer, when teams like Scarlets were going to Belfast and humping Ulster,there were no sell out stadiums then, then the province bought in a few SH stars, the results came and so did the fans, so to not include the money ploughed in bit is unfair.

I also remember those days - I was there. Watching us bob along ninth or tenth in the League every season. You're not wrong.

And actually yes - it is easier to sell Ulster Rugby when it's winning. That's common sense. I'll grant you that.

I'd say this, though - there were far more serious underlying cultural attitudes to be overcome. Many Nationalists didn't feel it was their team - that the sport was a legacy of British imperialism in Ireland. You don't overcome that with "they've had some good wins, though." You overcome that by growing the sport in Catholic schools and communities. Which has been a major focus and a lot of hard work. And it has reaped dividends - in the local grassroots game, which will affect the popularity of the Ulster team. Some folk from Nationalist communities would support Munster or Leinster rather than Ulster, because they were seen as properly "Irish" teams. Getting in Ruan Pienaar is not going to be a deciding factor in overcoming that. And it's not entirely been overcome at all.

So if we can do that, the Regions can - at least in principle - do something similar to improve thei rpopularity. Exaggerating the importance of Ulster's SH stars gives you an easy out - "we can't afford that, so we can't do the same". Nonsense. What I do think is probably completely different is that we have - as I explained - a cohesive approach because the Ulster are part of the IRFU. That's where the difference lies, not in SH superstars. If you don't have the system to do that sort of thing, it should probably be rethought.

And at the same time that Ulster were getting their bottoms handed to them, weren't the Ospreys fielding a team with Jerry Collins and Marty Holah in the back row? They used to be called the Galacticos. And Tommy Bowe, who left Ulster because he wanted success and to showcase his skills to earn a place in the national team, and Ulster were too poor for him to do so? So why have the tables now turned? Why does Ulster now have better attendances? Why are they (debatably) a better team, or at least on a par? Why do they have a better recent record in Europe?

Because the regions are poorly managed. Or there are inherent problems in the Welsh rugby set-up. Not because it rains money in Ulster and we have a team of SH imports.

I will not argue, the regions in my opinion are poorly managed, but the money factor HAS to be talked about because Ulster have had a lot of investment to get them where they are today, Ospreys had a higher average attendance during the galactico period, to dismiss what investment Ulster have had recently as regards to their current success is unfair.

"Unfair"? To whom? I made the point that Ulster have had a unique cultrual problem to overcome to increase their appeal. And they have addressed that pretty well and with a lot of hard work.

I wondered, did that mean the regions could do something similar, to increase generla interest, given thie issues facing them were much more prosaic? Or was it a model they can't follow because of disconnect betwene the regions and the WRU?

Don Alfonso wrote:"Unfair"? To whom? I made the point that Ulster have had a unique cultrual problem to overcome to increase their appeal. And they have addressed that pretty well and with a lot of hard work.

I wondered, did that mean the regions could do something similar, to increase generla interest, given thie issues facing them were much more prosaic? Or was it a model they can't follow because of disconnect betwene the regions and the WRU?

Here in Wales, and this is not an insult, seriously please do not take it as so, we do not let things like religion get involved with our sports, also, what you have explained as unique, is not that unique as I know it happens in Glasgow as well, the thing is in Wales, there are far too many rugby clubs for the amount of people we have here, take my town for example, there are at least 7 rugby clubs, with a population of 50,000 people, how are Cardiff Blues supposed to compete when every village in the region has a club that needs support as well, that is just the brass balls of it, people still see Cardiff Blues as Cardiff RFC, they do not see why they should support a club thirty miles away, when they have their own club on their doorstep.

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:"Unfair"? To whom? I made the point that Ulster have had a unique cultrual problem to overcome to increase their appeal. And they have addressed that pretty well and with a lot of hard work.

I wondered, did that mean the regions could do something similar, to increase generla interest, given thie issues facing them were much more prosaic? Or was it a model they can't follow because of disconnect betwene the regions and the WRU?

Here in Wales, and this is not an insult, seriously please do not take it as so, we do not let things like religion get involved with our sports, also, what you have explained as unique, is not that unique as I know it happens in Glasgow as well, the thing is in Wales, there are far too many rugby clubs for the amount of people we have here, take my town for example, there are at least 7 rugby clubs, with a population of 50,000 people, how are Cardiff Blues supposed to compete when every village in the region has a club that needs support as well, that is just the brass balls of it, people still see Cardiff Blues as Cardiff RFC, they do not see why they should support a club thirty miles away, when they have their own club on their doorstep.

No - I don't take it as an insult at all, and I appreciate that you have taken great care not to give offence. Our two countries have vastly different hisitories. And while you are right, there is sectarianism in Glasgow, and especially in their football, I have never ever heard it talked about as an issue Glasgow Rugby have to overcome - it has been for Ulster Rugby. Maybe it is, but I would need to hear that explained properly to me, in detail, by a Weegei fan rather than assume it.

The rest iof your post is exactly the kind of informative contribution I think these forums are supposed to be about.

Would you be better off replacing the regions? Does that sound even vaguely feasible? Are there historical divisions in Wales (like the provinces) that teams' identities coudld be modelled on? Would there be any way to convincingly make the regions into "umbrella" teams - from the position they are in now?

It all sounds so poorly thought out. Although I suppose Ireland are simply lucky to have thsoe centuries-old provincial identities to fall back on.

Much too much praise going Lord's way lately. It'll have to stop, it's unbecoming. It'll go to the lad's head