Welsh World Cup Squad

First topic message reminder :

Dragons not playing until tomorrow and quiet on here so just wondered what early thoughts are on the Welsh WC squad.  I think a lot of it will pick itself unless injury or shock retirements dictate.  I have gone with a 30 man squad 16/14 forwards/back split same as last world cup so here's my thought.

Here's the 47 man Training Squad, Players in bold are the ones I think are already inked in:

Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Andrews
Hookers (3) BALDWIN,OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC,Moriarty, King

No9s (3) WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Anscombe, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

As I said the ones in Bold are the ones I feel are already pencilled in to go. Updated squad as we stand now

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

On form from this last season yes and I would have started him over North and Cuthbert this year. We need something different to the big bosh that North and Cuthbert brings and in Amos or Walker we have that.

munkian wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Amos is a similar type of player to Liam Williams - he's a genuine back-three player and he likes to counter-attack. That said, it would be a huge blow if Williams misses out.

I'd worry about him covering fullback at Test level mind - good under the high ball but kicking isn't top notch.

I would guess that if Amos started then maybe Hook would be used on the bench as XV cover.

I'd happily start Amos on the wing if Sanjay is still injured, wouldnt start him as FB though, maybe give him a shot on bench in the warm ups at FB in warm ups

Munkain,

Agreed and like said let Hook be used as XV cover.

I have no doubt if Williams is injured, Gatland will revert to his usual back three and the training line will be used again.

I would expect that to Rev though I hope Cuthbert gets nod over Tom James at least if he goes for bulk.

What is the injury to Sanj? We are still 3 months off, as long as he is fit at the start of RWC he will figure.

Report said a foot injury but I would imagine its usual gutter jouranlism scare moungering. He's still with the squad and continuing preparations.

We have 6 weeks to the first warm up game and 8 to the last so plenty of time and even if he doesn't figure in one of them but is on course for the WC then Gatland will take him.

He's had foot surgery, i reckon it will be fine

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

Yes, I hope we are. If you've got the time or the inclination, have a search for some of the tries Amos has scored or created this season. He makes things happen, same as Liam Williams does. Cuthbert is one of the least creative wings I've seen. He can finish a move, but so can any decent winger.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

Yes, I hope we are. If you've got the time or the inclination, have a search for some of the tries Amos has scored or created this season. He makes things happen, same as Liam Williams does. Cuthbert is one of the least creative wings I've seen. He can finish a move, but so can any decent winger.

In addition to that he is more willing to make a tackle. And the major difference is that Amos is a wing/fullback jus the same as Sanjay, where as Cuthbert is purely an attacking winger.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

Yes, I hope we are. If you've got the time or the inclination, have a search for some of the tries Amos has scored or created this season. He makes things happen, same as Liam Williams does. Cuthbert is one of the least creative wings I've seen. He can finish a move, but so can any decent winger.

In addition to that he is more willing to make a tackle.  And the major difference is that Amos is a wing/fullback jus the same as Sanjay, where as Cuthbert is purely an attacking winger.

What do you expect, you're speaking to somebody who doesn't watch welsh rugby and isn't welsh.

Amos's hand off on Pienaar was a thing of beauty

Anybody see the pic Chris Kirwan RT'd this morning from the WRU. Jeez, Tyler Morgan looks in great nick.

Personally, I would've given Amos a chance during the Six Nations, particularly when there was always a doubt over George North's fitness.

He was alongside Dixon weren't he? I didn't think the former had been in the training squad...

Dixon looks huge !

Good news on the injury front as well, looks like Liam Williams will be fine, and Samson Lee is doing well.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_57585,00.html

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

On form from this last season yes and I would have started him over North and Cuthbert this year.  We need something different to the big bosh that North and Cuthbert brings and in Amos or Walker we have that.

Amos and Walker are indeed different, but they are also inferior in just about every aspect also, including what is key come world cup time, and thats experience!

Williams style of play was an addition to his defencive capabilities, his acceleration and agility, plus his strength, he had to force his way into the squad and then fought for a team place ferociously before he just couldn't be left out, and replaced Cuthbert. However Amos and Walker are at least a season and a half, maybe 2 off where they can challenge Cuthbert, who if nothing else is a proven try scorer against everyone.

Fanster wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

On form from this last season yes and I would have started him over North and Cuthbert this year.  We need something different to the big bosh that North and Cuthbert brings and in Amos or Walker we have that.

Amos and Walker are indeed different, but they are also inferior in just about every aspect also, including what is key come world cup time, and thats experience!

Williams style of play was an addition to his defencive capabilities, his acceleration and agility, plus his strength, he had to force his way into the squad and then fought for a team place ferociously before he just couldn't be left out, and replaced Cuthbert. However Amos and Walker are at least a season and a half, maybe 2 off where they can challenge Cuthbert, who if nothing else is a proven try scorer against everyone.

Inferior in every respect ? Have you actually seen Amos play ?

Fanster wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:Are we seriously considering Amos over Cuthbert?

On form from this last season yes and I would have started him over North and Cuthbert this year.  We need something different to the big bosh that North and Cuthbert brings and in Amos or Walker we have that.

Amos and Walker are indeed different, but they are also inferior in just about every aspect

Unbelievable.

I've seen him play for the Dragons, and U20 stuff (I think it was him), but have I ever seen him play international rugby? not massively, and not perform to a point where I think 'wow wheres this kid been?'

Would I trust a newbie going to Twickenham in a must win RWC game?

How many other nations are going to be taking risks when they have an experienced and proven try scorer available?

I know Cuthbert is a poor rugby playing wing, but a creative winger isn't any more use than a try scorer, and it irks me when people say Cuthbert can only finish, he's beaten enough defenders, run over and around and scored from nowhere.

Cuthbert has been there and done that, he's been to a RWC, been on a succesfull lions tour, scored tries against England and Australia, and been integral figure in winning championships, whereas Amos is more talented...

Liam Williams is a better option for the wing in my opinion, Amos not yet, and Walker nowhere near!

Yes

So Amos is 'more talented' but inferior in every respect ?

I really wouldn't bother engaging him.

He is more talented, and has far more potential than Cuthbert I think, but is he better right now, no.

Risca

I'm not sure why you get so upset by me saying Cuthbert at present is the better option, are you not a fan of Gatland? He clearly thinks same way, and probably will think the same way during the RWC!

Don't be so afraid of discussion, because I say one of your players isn't as good an option as someone else right now, doesn't mean i'm wrong, it shouldn't offend you, or insult you!

He doesn't feel the same way though, when was his last Test match ?

Exactly. Dropped after the Scotland game.

Dont get me wrong, I'd start Sanjay over Amos but Amos is the one of the in form Welsh wingers and is in great form.

Fanster wrote:He is more talented, and has far more potential than Cuthbert I think, but is he better right now, no.

But you've conceded that Cuthbert is 'a poor rugby playing wing.'

Who Cuthbert?

Of course he was dropped, for North coming back in, and he has no use as a bench player.

Like I said Williams is the better player, but this conversation is regarding Williams injury, and I'm willing to bet Cuthbert gets the nod over Amos.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Fanster wrote:He is more talented, and has far more potential than Cuthbert I think, but is he better right now, no.

But you've conceded that Cuthbert is 'a poor rugby playing wing.'

Gatland doesn't pick his squad on rugby playing types though does he, otherwise Adam Jones, Charteris, Phillips, Roberts etc wouldn't be first choice, they all do a specific job, and Cuthbert is in the same mould, he does his job, and that job is to use his huge 6'6 frame to score tries.

I understand where your coming from, it's easy to see creative players as better, or bigger players as better, but when you really look at it a player is either effective, or he isn't.

I know Cuthbert is effective going forward within his role, he's proven, and for all his weaknesses, they can be, and have been reduced to a minimum, however can I say Amos will be effective in his role? No I can't, because he is still inexperienced and an unknown.

Cuthbert has been able to beat England, and wasn't he there when beating them in Twickenham? He has beaten Australia (allbeit in Lions red) and has played against the best both nations have out wide, Amos has played against neither (I think) and would be a far riskier option in my opinion.

If you selected based on how much Test experience a player has, no one would ever win a first cap.

From an English point of view Cuthbert has had one really good game against us (and no I don't want to go there) and a number of ineffectual ones. He is great with a head of steam and a team that is going forward, but we have dealt with him pretty easily last couple of games and his defense can be woeful.

Adam Jones isn't even picked anymore...

And Cuthbert was dropped for North ? Are you sure about that ?

I'm pretty sure North came into the squad and Cuthbert went out, Williams was undroppable at the time so in effect Cuthbert was dropped for North was he not?

I don't select based on test match experience alone, when did I say that?

If you never used experience as an issue everyone would have a cap, see, the distorted argument to try to score cheap points can swing both ways.

The fact is I have nothing against Amos, from what I've seen he's a good little winger, although t bh I've probably seen him more at centre and Fullback than I have on the wing, but this is a RWC, no matter how much you love the Dragons and their players you cannot justify risking a RWC place on someone untested at the top level.

Lostinwales

You make a good point, he's had a decent game against England, and has won, he as also been largely out of the game against England as he is a winger, and well he only gets into games his team allows him too.

He's also played 3/4 times very well against Australia, and scored some cracking tries on Australian soil, one being a bit of a wonder try from his own half if I remember correctly.

If Amos and Cuthbert were head to head, the same age, same experience it's no choice, Amos every time, however they are not, and this is a RWC, not a development tour to Japan.

Gatlands entire gameplan and career is based around risk management, and taking opportunities from opposing teams mistakes, why would that change now?

munkian wrote:Adam Jones isn't even picked anymore...

And Cuthbert was dropped for North ? Are you sure about that ?

Doesn't mean he wasn't the best tighthead on the planet despite doing nothing with ball in hand or offering that much around the park, he was an adequate rugby playing prop who excelled at his strength, similar to Cuthbert.

North had what, 10 regional games before he was capped ?

munkian wrote:North had what, 10 regional games before he was capped ?

North was a freak of nature, capped at 18? and in an Autumn international.

He wasn't thrown into a RWC over experienced playing options was he? Infact wasn't Cjeckai the Cardiff winger the only other available winger? That kind of highlights the options had back then!

Amos was capped when he was 18/19

Here you go lads:

Alex Cuthbert would be "lucky" to regain his Wales place even if Liam Williams is ruled out of the Rugby World Cup, according to Dafydd James.

Williams, who took Cuthbert's place on the wing during the Six Nations, will miss Wales' first two warm up matches following foot surgery.

Ex-Wales centre James says Cuthbert faces a big task to win the shirt back.

"He'll be very lucky if he gets back in," he said. "I don't think he's put his hand up this season."
"It's down to mental attitude possibly," the 2001 British Lion said. "It depends how he goes in the training camp.

"If I was in the training camp and I was one of the backs I'd see this as a massive opportunity to really step up my game, show what you can do and put your hands up."

Wales head coach Warren Gatland is "optimistic" Williams, 24, will recover in time to take part in the World Cup.

James says losing the Scarlets' back would be a setback for Wales, who are already without injured centre Jonathan Davies (knee).

"It would be a massive blow," said James. "He's certainly a valuable commodity to have in the back division.

"He seems to create a hell of a lot of try-scoring opportunities, which we've seen him doing time and time again for Scarlets, but also for Wales this season. So let's hope he makes a speedy recovery."

IF and I still think its a big IF but if Williams was ruled out then it wouldn't surprise me if Gatland reverted back to type and went with North and Cuthbert as overall they have served him well. Both have their weaknesses and that is defence as for guys their size its shockingly poor.

However what I would and others would like to see is something a bit different on at least one of the wings be that Amos or Walker. Amos certainly has the form from this season just gone and Walker has loads of potential but he has had so many injuries for a guy his age its s shame.

For me it would be Amos but I can see it being Cuthbert , I just hope it isn't James.

That article made no sense whatsoever,

Cuthbert will be lucky to regain his place even if Williams is ruled out, followed by a paragraph of why Williams is so crucial...

All this says is that;

A) everyone has to work hard at the training camp to prove themselves - which we all agree

B) Williams is a better options than Cuthbert - which we all agree

I'll let the BBC know then Fanster.

Fanster wrote:I don't select based on test match experience alone, when did I say that?

I didn't say you did.

Fanster wrote:If you never used experience as an issue everyone would have a cap, see, the distorted argument to try to score cheap points can swing both ways.

That's clearly not true. You'd still select on form and ability, which I say should carry more weight than simply how many caps you've amassed. The Wallabies, for example, don't hesitate to cap a player if he's got the ability.

Fanster wrote:The fact is I have nothing against Amos, from what I've seen he's a good little winger, although t bh I've probably seen him more at centre and Fullback than I have on the wing, but this is a RWC, no matter how much you love the Dragons and their players you cannot justify risking a RWC place on someone untested at the top level.

How many caps did Faletau have before the last World Cup?

Some times you have to take a chance, injuries provide these chances for others.

I dont think our strength in depth is that awful anywhere; take centre, we lose Foxy and get Scott Williams. Hardly a chore is it? Beyond him we have quality. We have locks a galore, 3 quality hookers, look how Baldwin stepped up. We could call on Adam jones if we need to but we have options there and lee will be fit. We have tonnes of options int he back row. 3 decent flyhalf options. Numerous utility backs. A strong set of back 3. The point is that the incumbents have been in for so long in most positions and because we dont ship em in and ship em out like some other countries, there is a perception that the next tranche of players is of poor quality. Fact is they dont have much experience but when was the last time a replacement really effed up? What Wales have is consistency in selection; this is in part due to the small pool of players we have but it is also the performances of those players and their consistency. The squad is definitely up to the job and the lack of strength in depth is more perception than fact. P.S. FFS Lee dont get injured again

Amos would be a great shout imo, the lad is seriously talented.

Firstly,

If you selected based on how much Test experience a player has, no one would ever win a first cap.

So you did try to highlight I said I selected on experience alone!

Secondly,

If you only ever selceted on form and ability Warburton, and Nonu would have a handfull of caps between them, sometimes you hve to select who you know has been there and done it, despite them not being playing well. Why would Warburton have any game time over Tipuric or Navidi in recent seasons?

Thirdly Faletau only made the squad due to Jones and othe 8 options pulling out, he was given a chance through necesity.

Injuries have always allowed younger players chances, as have form, but we have neither a huge injury crisis in the back 3, nor has Amos form (from what i've seen) been so blistering he's forced his way in, it took Liam Williams a season plus to fight his way into Cuthberts jersey, a full season of top class club and international play.

Amos reminds me of Prydie right now, showed some good form, has a early call up and a chance to prove himself, right now thats all he has, a training camp to prove he is good enough for the squad.

Gwlad wrote:I dont think our strength in depth is that awful anywhere; take centre, we lose Foxy and get Scott Williams. Hardly a chore is it? Beyond him we have quality. We have locks a galore, 3 quality hookers, look how Baldwin stepped up. We could call on Adam jones if we need to but we have options there and lee will be fit. We have tonnes of options int he back row. 3 decent flyhalf options. Numerous utility backs. A strong set of back 3. The point is that the incumbents have been in for so long in most positions and because we dont ship em in and ship em out like some other countries, there is a perception that the next tranche of players is of poor quality. Fact is they dont have much experience but when was the last time a replacement really effed up? What Wales have is consistency in selection; this is in part due to the small pool of players we have but it is also the performances of those players and their consistency. The squad is definitely up to the job and the lack of strength in depth is more perception than fact. P.S. FFS Lee dont get injured again

I would disagree in that front row and centre are a bit of a concern.

Fanster wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I dont think our strength in depth is that awful anywhere; take centre, we lose Foxy and get Scott Williams. Hardly a chore is it? Beyond him we have quality. We have locks a galore, 3 quality hookers, look how Baldwin stepped up. We could call on Adam jones if we need to but we have options there and lee will be fit. We have tonnes of options int he back row. 3 decent flyhalf options. Numerous utility backs. A strong set of back 3. The point is that the incumbents have been in for so long in most positions and because we dont ship em in and ship em out like some other countries, there is a perception that the next tranche of players is of poor quality. Fact is they dont have much experience but when was the last time a replacement really effed up? What Wales have is consistency in selection; this is in part due to the small pool of players we have but it is also the performances of those players and their consistency. The squad is definitely up to the job and the lack of strength in depth is more perception than fact. P.S. FFS Lee dont get injured again

I would disagree in that front row and centre are a bit of a concern.

Yes by comparison with Jenkins Jones and Hibbard/Rees/Owens at the top of their form i'd agree that the new look is not yet bedded in but i have faith; point is that when you have mammoth players like Jenkins who have been there for 10 years plus, and now are at the end of their career and one calf injury away from the final curtain then the replacement has to be viewed in that context and its that which is nerve making. I expect our youngsters to do what they continue to do and raise their game and take their opportunities. Has Shane Williams retirement and replacement been a negative? not at all. Take Sanjay Williams who has eclipsed Cuthbert and potentially ousted arguably one of the best 15s in the game, Baldwin has been huge. Centre yes i know that after years of Roberts and Foxy the replacements look somewhat inexperienced but i prefer S Williams anyway and there are youngsters who are more than ready to slot onto the bench. One thing Gatland does not do is chop and change, unlike some there is no new broom week on week, he gave Prietland numerous chances when bigger deserved it and now Biggar is the man. His policy has always been if it aint broke, and from that he has achieved huge success and even had a game named after him. But of course consistent selection means an element of predictability will follow and therefore i actually see the changing up of certain players a positive.

Fanster wrote:Firstly,

If you selected based on how much Test experience a player has, no one would ever win a first cap.

So you did try to highlight I said I selected on experience alone!

If you selected based on how much Test experience a player has, no one would ever win a first cap.

Did you miss the 'if'?

Maybe I should have used 'one' instead of 'you', to save you inferring something that wasn't meant.

Fanster wrote:If you only ever selceted on form and ability Warburton, and Nonu would have a handfull of caps between them, sometimes you hve to select who you know has been there and done it, despite them not being playing well. Why would Warburton have any game time over Tipuric or Navidi in recent seasons?

My point was that form and ability are no less important than the number of caps you have. Being inexperienced at Test level should never be an impediment to getting called up if your form and ability warrant it - and if the incumbent has been playing like a drain all season.

Fanster wrote:Injuries have always allowed younger players chances, as have form, but we have neither a huge injury crisis in the back 3, nor has Amos form (from what i've seen) been so blistering he's forced his way in

Oh that's okay then. If you didn't see it, it doesn't count. I take it all back.  

Scott Williams stepping in for JD is not a backward step by any stretch IMO. They are different types of players but Williams, along with name sake Liam has been the form back in Wales all season.

After that if you take Hook out of the equation then we are in -experienced in the centre but the two young lads Dixon and Morgan have bags of class and sometimes if the need arises you just have to take a chance.

As Gwlad mentioned look how Baldwin stepped up to the mark this past 6 Nations.