Welsh World Cup Squad

First topic message reminder :

Dragons not playing until tomorrow and quiet on here so just wondered what early thoughts are on the Welsh WC squad.  I think a lot of it will pick itself unless injury or shock retirements dictate.  I have gone with a 30 man squad 16/14 forwards/back split same as last world cup so here's my thought.

Here's the 47 man Training Squad, Players in bold are the ones I think are already inked in:

Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Andrews
Hookers (3) BALDWIN,OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC,Moriarty, King

No9s (3) WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Anscombe, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

As I said the ones in Bold are the ones I feel are already pencilled in to go. Updated squad as we stand now

Yeah, they were prolific against us last time...

munkian wrote:Yeah, they were prolific against us last time...

Matthew Morgan and Hook at 10 weren't a factor last time. It is one of the worst Wales teams I have seen in 15 years.

Slightly over dramatic.

Its a pre WC run out - and we don't know who the Irish are putting out yet.

We need to test our depth.

munkian wrote:

We need to test our depth.

This just proves the lack of it in my opinion. Shockingly so.

I'm assuming we'll see a different line up in the return fixture.

Considering injuries, who exactly are you unhappy with ?

i would imagine you will see an Ireland team at a similar level. you will see players that have question marks over their names and positions Marmion, Cave, keathleyand some first team players coming back from injury and need game time like Trimble, D Ryan,

munkian wrote:I'm assuming we'll see a different line up in the return fixture.

Considering injuries, who exactly are you unhappy with ?

Hook at 10 is a pathetic choice. He is not and never has been a 10, let alone when there are 3 others in the squad that are exactly that. He will not play 10 in the world cup, so this is nonsensical.

The backrow is unbalanced. You have two carriers in Moriarty and Baker that don't exactly do much else. Tipuric will have to do an insane amoutn of work for us to win the breakdown.

Likewise, Ball and Day - not a combo that will win the battle of the engine room. So you need an expert on the bench just incase.........who's the expert lock on the bench? Erm?

The props are weak but I can sort of understand why.

Matthew Morgan in the squad at all is ridiculous. He is not a test quality rugby player.

All in all, a very, very weak Wales seelction.

Hook is a strange choice, as is Phillips - I guess the old heads are there to steady a fairly young team - I would have preferred Priestland and Davies though.

I thought Moriarty is pretty decent in defense ? Hope Baker has been practicing too.

Bradley Davies would have been a better choice instead of Day - I dont think he'll make the cut

I think you are seeing this as a must win test match rather than one of two warm up games.

I think we'll see a stronger team against Ireland away and something near 1st choice against Italy.

No positives for you ?

Keeping Francis safe?

He needs experience.

The danger with wrapping players in cotton wool is that they won't be prepared for when the real challenge comes.

Either that or they suffocate.

munkian wrote:Hook is a strange choice, as is Phillips - I guess the old heads are there to steady a fairly young team - I would have preferred Priestland and Davies though.

I thought Moriarty is pretty decent in defense ? Hope Baker has been practicing too.

Bradley Davies would have been a better choice instead of Day - I dont think he'll make the cut

I think you are seeing this as a must win test match rather than one of two warm up games.

I think we'll see a stronger team against Ireland away and something near 1st choice against Italy.

No positives for you ?

Walker, Morgan, Smith will be interesting to see. Because they have international futures. I don't really understand what we can hope to assess during the world cup given this selection.

It's just strange. You use your warm up games to warm up players. Half of these might not even feature in the positions they are playing. So it just gives the feeling that this is more of a fundraiser than a warm up match.

I'd be hugely surprised if he didnt feature in the away fixture.

I'm excited about the Tyler/Scot combo - not so much with Amos at FB unless his kicking has improved.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

munkian wrote:Hook is a strange choice, as is Phillips - I guess the old heads are there to steady a fairly young team - I would have preferred Priestland and Davies though.

I thought Moriarty is pretty decent in defense ? Hope Baker has been practicing too.

Bradley Davies would have been a better choice instead of Day - I dont think he'll make the cut

I think you are seeing this as a must win test match rather than one of two warm up games.

I think we'll see a stronger team against Ireland away and something near 1st choice against Italy.

No positives for you ?

Walker, Morgan, Smith will be interesting to see. Because they have international futures. I don't really understand what we can hope to assess during the world cup given this selection.

It's just strange. You use your warm up games to warm up players. Half of these might not even feature in the positions they are playing. So it just gives the feeling that this is more of a fundraiser than a warm up match.

There are 2 more games after this one mind.

munkian wrote:

There are 2 more games after this one mind.

Which will more likely have a proper warm up game feel to them. This is more along the lines of a trial selection, which although is all well and good, won't have the intensity of a test match about it, and therefore is pretty pointless. Hook at 10? Jesus come on.

munkian, every game is a must win for me. No point in ducking these games and saying "Oh well we didn't really try because it was a warm-up." That's loser talk. Besides there are better players in need of match fitness and winning breeds more winning .

Chunky I agree with most of your points on this team, though I probably rate a couple of the players a bit higher than you. As I said last night that forward pack looks very underpowered and I don't see what they could bring to the match. I stand by that comment today. By the way chunky did you read the news about Cipriani? With that and the hooper incident I'm starting to think you might be right about something else...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Chunky I agree with most of your points on this team, though I probably rate a couple of the players a bit higher than you. As I said last night that forward pack looks very underpowered and I don't see what they could bring to the match. I stand by that comment today. By the way chunky did you read the news about Cipriani? With that and the hooper incident I'm starting to think you might be right about something else...

The evidence is all there. Ask yourself what outcome you would have had from a court if you had doe the same thing.

mikey_dragon wrote:If I'm honest then there are a number of matches in the past two years where Priestland has had  a poor game, Fiji is just one that springs to mind. I've lost count of the club performances where he's been a liability. You know it's a serious issue when the public are booing his baffling selection and the coaches have to ask the media to give him a confidence boost. I'm not saying that he's inferior to Hook, Morgan and Anscombe - he isn't. They're all probably on the same level. .

I really can't fathom how you think these things. The whole team was dire against Fiji, Priestland's tactical kicking was decent in breaking up shocking passages of play from the forwards, if nothing more (what more could he do?). This is part of the problem: the outside half gets blamed for not producing a masterclass of rugby even when the forwards are diabolical. In part this refers to the mental aspect I referenced earlier- Welsh forwards seem unable to really dominate and rally together unless they have something to prove, or are underdogs- but it's also a problem with public perception as well. In becoming second choice, I'd also point you to the phenomenon of ad hominem selection; a player isn't deemed good enough, therefore is selected in a fringe and unsettled team, performs poorly, and thus the perception of him is self-fulfilling. Biggar suffered in this manner with his selection against the weaker teams in the Autumn for years.

This then answers your next point. Do you really take the whistling and heckling of a 6-pints-in, pink cowboy hat wearing 'supporter' in the crowd as valid and well reasoned? And do you really take the Welsh rugby media as anything but sensationalist and ill-informed first and foremost to sell newspapers and get clicks? It's also a case of the blind leading the blind there: how many times do you hear someone posit an opinion that is simply a regurgitation of a headline from the Western Mail?

The fact that Gatland has to constantly answer questions about Hook, or Priestland's form etc., shows how much of a burden the number 10 shirt has become due to the reverence of the position the country bestows on it. But it's not productive. If the media spent half the time they did spreading the player analysis out to the rest of the team, people would perhaps start noticing and caring when the Welsh forwards are substandard, and they'd also stop laying the blame at the outside half's door.

I'd say one of Priestland's weaker aspects is his desire (and perhaps ability) to really grasp a game or a moment by the scruff of the neck. It's frustrating to the casual fans to see someone be so apparently passive in what is an important leadership role on the pitch, and it's also frustrating for the more able rugby player or spectator to see him not lead by example when it's needed. This is made more apparent as Biggar is almost the polar opposite in this regard. To call Priestland the equal of Hook, Anscombe, and Morgan is ludicrous, with differing reasons for each of those. Only Hook is of his calibre (we all know he could be better than both the 10s in front of him, but that's a debate that's been had time and time again).

Priestland was the New Zealand media's fly half of the tournament in the last rugby world cup. Ages ago yes, but he's not deteriorated substantially.

Priestland over Hook at 10 every time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

munkian wrote:Yeah, they were prolific against us last time...

Matthew Morgan and Hook at 10 weren't a factor last time. It is one of the worst Wales teams I have seen in 15 years.

How much do you want to bet we don't get drubbed 62 - 5?

Realistically I get why Gatland wants to do this, but the home game isn't the best choice, theres going to be a decent crowd there paying perfectly good money to see this, I would have hoped for a selection that promotes continuity within the squad.

I'd be asking for my money back.

Subject to Gatland explaining why Francis is not included, I am happy with this selection..

Looking forward to Moriarty, Tyler Morgan and Amos showing what they can do

EDIT:

From Wales Online : 'Gatland: "All I can say about Tomas Francis is we've been incredibly impressed with him." So we can take it then that the Exeter prop remains firmly in the World Cup equation if not in the squad for Saturday.'

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'd be asking for my money back.

TBH thats the first thing that came to my mind, but I reconsidered. I may not bother going to the game now, as I had to rearrange things to do so, in the hope it would be a real clash.

We'll see later in the week I suppose

Anscombe has a slight thigh strain according to twitter, so could explain Hook's baffling selection.

the first pre WC warm up game never features full strength teams

Hi miaow. Firstly allow me to put it plain and simple for you. I've watched Priestland throughout his career. That is every single Wales game and the majority of Scarlets matches that are aired on TV. This has allowed me to form an opinion on how good or bad I rate him at fly-half. Your long-winded and presumptuous posts are not going to change my view of that and I assume that is the same for most rugby fans apart from those who are Scarlet (Assuming you're one of those too). I find your posts a bit defensive if I'm honest and in this instance it really isn't necessary.

As for my previous post; yes I agree the whole team was dire against Fiji. At the time I particularly singled out both 9 and 10 as it was the worst half-back performance I had ever seen. I mentioned the booing because it's an extreme rarity that fans boo their own, which to me said that a lot of fans are of the same view on Priestland that's all, however I do not think they should have booed their own player at all. What I disliked about all that was after the booing it seemed I was no longer allowed to hold my view on Priestland even after I had refrained from openly criticising him throughout 2013. Also in the post-Fiji trauma when I singled out the half-backs I was shouted at by Scarlet fans asking me to "leave him alone" - in addition to that some cyclops started going on at me about how Webb had cost us the previous game against Australia. It was both baffling and frustrating but still, the introvert in me prioritises my own view. Therefore after just a few comments I can see we will not agree. There's nothing more to add.

munkian wrote:Priestland over Hook at 10 every time.

Each is a liability for me, none more so than the other. Priest plays in Wales so he should get the nod over Hook. Thankfully, both will be playing outside of Wales next season.

mikey_dragon wrote: Thankfully, both will be playing outside of Wales next season.

Why be thankful that Wales have less options to pick from?

[although you are incorrect as Gatland has stated that Priestland, thanbkfully, is one of his 2 wild cards next season]

Well that is a light weight team. I hope it doesn't deter the fans attending that the more famous stars are not getting a run out.

I agree that Phillips is a surprise, but I guess Gats wants to give him a chance to prove his worth.

Could be a good back row combination.

The centre and back three look exciting.

Its sold out so I doubt people who have bought tickets will now not attend.

Apparently Anscombe was due to start at 10 but has a slight thigh sprain.

munkian wrote:Its sold out so I doubt people who have bought tickets will now not attend.

Apparently Anscombe was due to start at 10 but has a slight thigh sprain.

Aye hope you're right...!

Where did you hear that about Anscombe?

It was in the WOL Gatland press blurb -

The revelation by Gatland that Gareth Anscombe would have played from the start were it not for a thigh problem which he is now over, changes the outlook somewhat for the Blues player.

It suggests he is nearer the cut than it may have seemed when looking at this selection on paper a couple of hours ago. It doesn't say much for James Hook either.

Certainly does...

I hadn't read Wales Online today...

I thought all season that he showed potential. Trying to pick the right things to do. The blues environment was not fruitful, maybe within the Wales camp he has found his feet.

Why are people getting their knickers in a twist?

It is sink or swim for some of these players in terms of selection for this world cup.  Should some of the players produced good performances, then it creates competition within the squad and will have some of the established players looking over their shoulders.  The more players pushing for selection the better, in my humble opinion.  this a chance for the younger less experienced guys to step into a line up with a number of experienced players to bring them along and hopefully ensure that panic does not set in.

As for the selection of Hook;  Both Priestland and Bigger are admired by the coaching staff for their ability to maintain the structure of the game plan...  If one of those two was to get crocked and not be available for the WC, then we would be left with only one 10 that can execute the coaches' game plan, with Anscombe untested and Hook previously not floating the coaches bot in respect of sticking to the structured play that they want.  Hook has acknowledged the fact that Howley  has asked him to play straighter and not crab across the pitch... He seems to have had a good season with Gloucester at 10, and this is a chance for him to show that he can fit and play within the structure.  Am I right or am I wrong?

Whilst I want the team to win, I'm not so blind as to see that this fixture is about cutting the wheat from the chaff, and that following the game the squad will be condensed, so that the coaches are able to devote more time and focus on the players that will ultimately lead us in to the WC.  We already know what the like of Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Gethin Jenkins, AWJ can do, so the job at hand is to give players with promise a chance and create competition for places.

Once the squad has been dwindled after this game, I expect the more established players to be selected to get match fitness... near full strength in Dublin, fine tuning against Italy, and all guns blazing against Uruguay.

Anyone asking for their money back for this fixture are probably the types in cowboy hats who are wondering "Why isn't Shane playing?".

jimlewtheblue wrote:Why are people getting their knickers in a twist?

It is sink or swim for some of these players in terms of selection for this world cup.  Should some of the players produced good performances, then it creates competition within the squad and will have some of the established players looking over their shoulders.  The more players pushing for selection the better, in my humble opinion.  this a chance for the younger less experienced guys to step into a line up with a number of experienced players to bring them along and hopefully ensure that panic does not set in.

As for the selection of Hook;  Both Priestland and Bigger are admired by the coaching staff for their ability to maintain the structure of the game plan...  If one of those two was to get crocked and not be available for the WC, then we would be left with only one 10 that can execute the coaches' game plan, with Anscombe untested and Hook previously not floating the coaches bot in respect of sticking to the structured play that they want.  Hook has acknowledged the fact that Howley  has asked him to play straighter and not crab across the pitch... He seems to have had a good season with Gloucester at 10, and this is a chance for him to show that he can fit and play within the structure.  Am I right or am I wrong?

Whilst I want the team to win, I'm not so blind as to see that this fixture is about cutting the wheat from the chaff, and that following the game the squad will be condensed, so that the coaches are able to devote more time and focus on the players that will ultimately lead us in to the WC.  We already know what the like of Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Gethin Jenkins, AWJ can do, so the job at hand is to give players with promise a chance and create competition for places.

Once the squad has been dwindled after this game, I expect the more established players to be selected to get match fitness... near full strength in Dublin, fine tuning against Italy, and all guns blazing against Uruguay.

Anyone asking for their money back for this fixture are probably the types in cowboy hats who are wondering "Why isn't Shane playing?".

Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all, and are the WRU's target audience!

Fanster wrote:

jimlewtheblue wrote:Anyone asking for their money back for this fixture are probably the types in cowboy hats who are wondering "Why isn't Shane playing?".

Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all, and are the WRU's target audience!

To be honest, not wanting to turn up and support your team because they are not playing the players you wanted them to is a bit fickle though. And can you actually call yourself a supporter if you are wanting a refund, as technically you are no longer giving your support (neither financially or as the 16th man).

I have tickets and I agree with jimlewtheblue.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: Thankfully, both will be playing outside of Wales next season.

Why be thankful that Wales have less options to pick from?

[although you are incorrect as Gatland has stated that Priestland, thanbkfully, is one of his 2 wild cards next season]

Because over the last 2 years, I haven't seen a performance from either Hook or Priestland at any level that warrants their international selection. The only time they've looked decent and not made a host of errors is when we are drubbing the opposition team. I don't want either player in the squad and after the RWC I expect both to be transitioned out of the Wales squad for good. Playing in England will harm their chances. I'd rather us try our luck in developing the next guys in line, Anscombe, Patchell, and I would also like to see an attempt at bringing Owen Williams back to a Welsh team because I think he's promising as well.

I don't see how I'm incorrect. Playing outside of Wales seems to harm the opportunities of some (but not all). Seeing as it hasn't happened I don't see how we can just take Gatland's word for it. If Toby does go to Bath can you really see him favouring Priestland over him as the wild card? Personally, I can't.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:

jimlewtheblue wrote:Anyone asking for their money back for this fixture are probably the types in cowboy hats who are wondering "Why isn't Shane playing?".

Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all, and are the WRU's target audience!

To be honest, not wanting to turn up and support your team because they are not playing the players you wanted them to is a bit fickle though.  And can you actually call yourself a supporter if you are wanting a refund, as technically you are no longer giving your support (neither financially or as the 16th man).

I think it was the Shane Williams bit. Not even the pink cowboy hat brigade are that dimwitted. I would personally never ask for my money back or turn down the opportunity to watch Wales play. The only time I may have been tempted to ask for a refund was that disastrous autumn of 2013.

[quote="Fanster"]

jimlewtheblue wrote:

Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all, and are the WRU's target audience!

I don't agree Fanster... If you are a "Fan" then you support the men that have been selected... I find it disrespectful to the lads that have worked so hard to represent their country, that so called "fans" and fellow countrymen would rather be reimbursed than go and SUPPORT their team, no? I do, however, suspect, that these plastic fans are very much the minority... not even 0.001%. If you find that "extremely" insulting then I apologise.

mikey_dragon wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:

jimlewtheblue wrote:Anyone asking for their money back for this fixture are probably the types in cowboy hats who are wondering "Why isn't Shane playing?".

Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all, and are the WRU's target audience!

To be honest, not wanting to turn up and support your team because they are not playing the players you wanted them to is a bit fickle though.  And can you actually call yourself a supporter if you are wanting a refund, as technically you are no longer giving your support (neither financially or as the 16th man).

I think it was the Shane Williams bit. Not even the pink cowboy hat brigade are that dimwitted. I would personally never ask for my money back or turn down the opportunity to watch Wales play. The only time I may have been tempted to ask for a refund was that disastrous autumn of 2013.

Oh no, I meant Shane Haworth

Fanster wrote:Thats an extremely insulting statement to say to Wales fans, they do fund team Wales after all

No they don't.

People should be excited to see the future of the team. T Morgan, Moriarty, Amos, Baker and Walker are all exciting prospects that need to be blooded at some point.

The game is a sellout as well. Lets keep in mind we can't sell the ground out v SA and OZ so a sellout here shows that the right ticket pricing brings people in. 

I am worried that we will lack structure but these players need to be tested at some point. Phillips and Hook have points to prove and Williams will give the midfield structure.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Because over the last 2 years, I haven't seen a performance from either Hook or Priestland at any level that warrants their international selection. The only time they've looked decent and not made a host of errors is when we are drubbing the opposition team. I don't want either player in the squad and after the RWC I expect both to be transitioned out of the Wales squad for good. Playing in England will harm their chances. I'd rather us try our luck in developing the next guys in line, Anscombe, Patchell, and I would also like to see an attempt at bringing Owen Williams back to a Welsh team because I think he's promising as well.

I don't see how I'm incorrect. Playing outside of Wales seems to harm the opportunities of some (but not all). Seeing as it hasn't happened I don't see how we can just take Gatland's word for it. If Toby does go to Bath can you really see him favouring Priestland over him as the wild card? Personally, I can't.

Yes, I can. Because Biggar and Priestland are way above anyone else in the frame for the 10 shirt. Hook is awful, Anscombe is totally unproven, and Owen Williams won't be eligible until 2018.

Thankfully Gatland rates Priestalnd higher than you do. Of course if Gatland isn't the Wales coach in November, things might change.

There are a few shocks for me, Day, Ll Williams and Andrews mainly.

I wouldn't have had Anscombe in the squad but not surprised he's there and whats the score with Francis are we going to use him or not or does it mean he's already in the main squad to go onto the WC.

bedfordwelsh wrote:There are a few shocks for me, Day, Ll Williams and Andrews mainly.

I wouldn't have had Anscombe in the squad but not surprised he's there and whats the score with Francis are we going to use him or not or does it mean he's already in the main squad to go onto the WC.

Francis is on the plane. (Or Bus)

Chunky,

That's my way of thinking as well but still thought he would have been om bench at least give him some game time. Guess we will see him against Ireland away and Italy.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Chunky,

That's my way of thinking as well but still thought he would have been om bench at least give him some game time.  Guess we will see him against Ireland away and Italy.

He's in cotton wool given the tighthead quality, (or lack of it)

Why won't Owen Williams be eligible until 2018, Chunky?

Out of that starting XV I would say that 8 are already in the WC squad with another 1 on the bench guaranteed their spot.