Judgement Day III-bigger crowd than European Champions Cup final- Thread

[LordDowlais]

First topic message reminder :

Oh well, nobody has started a thread on this yet so I might as well do one, is anybody going ? At £10 per person for two games it's a bargain, over 35,000 tickets sold so far,so I have been told, not bad, I will be there.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/32450.php#.VTS-adJVhHw

Anyway back to the games, everyone has had a weeks rest, except Dragons, I wonder if this will affect them, wins for the two West Wales sides on Saturday, soory to Blues and Dragons fans, I expect to see all the Welsh internationals that are not injured playing as well, I cannot wait. Wales boss Warren Gatland has said that this weekends matches will go a long way to him deciding his WC squad.

The Kiwi coach has identified the Millennium Stadium regional double-header later this month as a perfect opportunity for players to force the way into his plans.

Cardiff Blues take on the play-off chasing Ospreys in the first game of the day on Saturday, April 25, with the Dragons then facing Champions Cup hopefuls the Scarlets.

There will be a host of Wales contenders on duty and Gatland says watching them pit their wits against each other will inform his decision-making when it comes to picking his initial World Cup group.

On June 7, he names a 45-strong training squad, which will embark on a series of camps before playing warm-up fixtures against Ireland and Italy, with the group to be whittled down to a final 31 for this autumn’s global tournament.

So he says the selectors’ eyes will be firmly on Judgement Day III, which is on course for a record attendance, with more than 32,000 tickets having already been sold.

“We have been planning in earnest for this World Cup for some time now, but there are some things you can not plan for,” said Gatland.

“The clubs are approaching the business end of the season and when we name our preliminary RWC squad in June, form is going to be a major factor in our decision-making process.

“All of the national squad coaches will be watching even more closely on Judgement Day this year.

“There is nothing like a derby match to put players under pressure to perform and with the added extra factor of being played out at the Millennium Stadium it should be a revealing day from a coach’s point of view.

“We have a good idea of what our best team is at the moment and we have been really happy with the players in the Six Nations and particularly with the performance against Italy in that final weekend when they did everything that was asked of them.

“But there are always players that time it right and come into consideration at World Cup time when form becomes an incredibly important factor.

“You only have to look at the Sam Warburton who was named captain ahead of the 2011 Rugby World Cup after Matthew Rees missed out through injury and the partnership formed with Dan Lydiate and Toby Faletau in the back row, to see that.

“The door is open for someone to not only play themselves into the squad, but even into the starting line-up and all eyes will be on Judgement Day in April to see if someone can put their hands up.”

This will be the third year for the Pro12 Welsh derby double-header, which drew crowds of 36,174 and 30,411 in 2013 and 2014 respectively.

“Judgment Day is a great concept and a hugely popular event with the fans, but in a World Cup year it is just the kind of event which the coaches need to help inform the decision making process,” said Gatland.

Tickets are available for £10 from www.wru.wales/tickets, the WRU ticket office on Westgate Street, each of the four clubs, at local Tesco stores or by calling ticketmaster on 0844 847 1881.


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/judgement-day-iii-wales-boss-9004568

[Chunky Norwich]

A student ticket at Cardiff Blues is £6

For a category C game.

Category A - £15
Category B - £11.

My original email says category A.

Just clarifying that not all student prices are £15 though.

[bedfordwelsh]

Public transport is and always has been nothing short of atrocious in and around South Wales area on a Sunday so for some its almost impossible to get there and as Chunky has eluded to in previous posts who in their right mind arranges a Welsh Derby on a Sunday FFS.

[doctornickolas]

They would need to double the crowd to tread water, if they halved the price.

That's simple economics.

Do you think they'll double the crowd?

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.

A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.

A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.

Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.

People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.

Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is so plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

Griff

Are all the Sunday games due to the ground share with the football. Previously I thought Dragons and Newport rfc rotated Saturdays but is it now Newport rfc and FC doing that so the Dragons are the ones elbowed out to make space? If that is the case then again I think it's short term thinking. As you say crowds are less on Sunday. No idea how much Newport FC pay but I can't imagine we are talking mega bucks.

[doctornickolas]

A student ticket at Cardiff Blues is £6

For a category C game.

Category A - £15
Category B - £11.

My original email says category A.

Just clarifying that not all student prices are £15 though.

Yep, fair enough.

[Guest]

They would need to double the crowd to tread water, if they halved the price.

That's simple economics.

Do you think they'll double the crowd?

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.

A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.

A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.

Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.

People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.

Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is so plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

Griff

Are all the Sunday games due to the ground share with the football. Previously I thought Dragons and Newport rfc rotated Saturdays but is it now Newport rfc and FC doing that so the Dragons are the ones elbowed out to make space? If that is the case then again I think it's short term thinking. As you say crowds are less on Sunday. No idea how much Newport FC pay but I can't imagine we are talking mega bucks.

Not sure, but there's always Friday. No football or Newport RFC on Friday. In fact Friday was the Dragons main game time for years and people got in a bit of a habit with that, but then all change again.

[doctornickolas]

They would need to double the crowd to tread water, if they halved the price.

That's simple economics.

Do you think they'll double the crowd?

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.

A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.

A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.

Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.

People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.

Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is so plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

Griff

Are all the Sunday games due to the ground share with the football. Previously I thought Dragons and Newport rfc rotated Saturdays but is it now Newport rfc and FC doing that so the Dragons are the ones elbowed out to make space? If that is the case then again I think it's short term thinking. As you say crowds are less on Sunday. No idea how much Newport FC pay but I can't imagine we are talking mega bucks.

Not sure, but there's always Friday.  No football or Newport RFC on Friday. In fact Friday was the Dragons main game time for years and people got in a bit of a habit with that, but then all change again.  

Could be they don't want a rugby game on the pitch on a Friday the day before the football in case it wrecks the pitch for them.

[Guest]

Could be they don't want a rugby game on the pitch on a Friday the day before the football in case it wrecks the pitch for them.

Could be, but that's very frustrating when they are just tenants. Although the Dragons are sort of tenants they are owned by Newport RFC who own Rodney Parade so you would think we would have some leverage if we wanted a Friday game. Another of Welsh rugby's myriad foibles

[Pot Hale]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.  A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.   A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.  Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.   People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.   Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is no plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

TV deals do tend to set the agenda for days and kick-off times.  

Someone else commented recently (Chunky Norwich) on the disparity of games for the regions on Sundays versus games for the provinces - "Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?" was the comment.    

I'm not sure if this is a reference to league only or cup games as well.   Munster have not played any league games - home or away - on a Sunday this season.  They've played 5 home games on Friday and 2 away.   5 home games on a Saturday and 9 away and an away Thursday game.  

The Dragons played four at home and six away on a Sunday.  They've played 3 home games on a Saturday, and 5 away.  3 home games on a Friday and 1 away, and a Thursday game.  

So the majority of Munster games on a Saturday, and their home games split equally between Friday and Saturday.   With Dragons, nearly half their games on a Sunday, and their home games split nearly equally between Fri, Sat and Sun.  

What do Welsh supporters - such as Dragons - want instead?  No home or away games on a Sunday?  Does it matter as much if away games are on a Sunday against Italian, Scottish or Irish teams?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Dragons: Geraint Rhys Jones, Tom Prydie, Tyler Morgan, Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos, Dorian Jones, Jonathan Evans; Phil Price, Rhys Buckley, Brok Harris, Matthew Screech, Rynard Landman (c), James Thomas, James Benjamin, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: T. Rhys Thomas, Luke Garrett, Lloyd Fairbrother, Nick Crosswell, Ollie Griffiths, Luc Jones, Carl Meyer, Ashton Hewitt.

[Coleman]

Cardiff Blues:
15 Rhys Patchell, 14 Lucas Amorosino, 13 Tom Isaacs, 12 Garyn Smith, 11 Joaquin Tuculet, 10 Gareth Anscombe, 9 Lloyd Williams; 1 Gethin Jenkins (c), 2 Kristian Dacey, 3 Craig Mitchell, 4 Chris Dicomidis, 5 Filo Paulo, 6 Josh Turnbull, 7 Sam Warburton, 8 Josh Navidi

Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Sam Hobbs, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Jarrad Hoeata, 20 Macauley Cook, 21 Lewis Jones, 22 Gareth Davies, 23 Dan Fish

[wayne]

Slightly off topic I know, didn't know where else to post this, before tomorrows games the 4 Welsh Regions supporters Group have been invited to a meeting with the WRU and RRW at the Millenium Stadium. What a difference a year makes and getting rid of Prickering and the imminent departure of the Dodger makes, things are looking so much better with ALL the major players in Welsh Rugby singing from the same hymn sheet.
Long may it continue.

[Guest]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.  A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.   A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.  Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.   People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.   Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is no plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

TV deals do tend to set the agenda for days and kick-off times.  

Someone else commented recently (Chunky Norwich) on the disparity of games for the regions on Sundays versus games for the provinces - "Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?" was the comment.    

I'm not sure if this is a reference to league only or cup games as well.   Munster have not played any league games - home or away - on a Sunday this season.  They've played 5 home games on Friday and 2 away.   5 home games on a Saturday and 9 away and an away Thursday game.  

The Dragons played four at home and six away on a Sunday.  They've played 3 home games on a Saturday, and 5 away.  3 home games on a Friday and 1 away, and a Thursday game.  

So the majority of Munster games on a Saturday, and their home games split equally between Friday and Saturday.   With Dragons, nearly half their games on a Sunday, and their home games split nearly equally between Fri, Sat and Sun.  

What do Welsh supporters - such as Dragons - want instead?  No home or away games on a Sunday?  Does it matter as much if away games are on a Sunday against Italian, Scottish or Irish teams?

I can only speak as a fan of the Dragons, and yes the 7 home games we'll have this season on a Sunday seems a lot. Not such a problem away as I do not travel abroad for games. So just the home games. Part of putting 'our house in order' so we don't devalue the league any more is to get the biggest crowds possible. If historical data tells us that Sunday's are the worst day for drawing a crowd then I'm disappointed in the management for not fighting harder against it. I doubt we get more tv money for it as I believe it is split equally. So each time we have a Sunday game we lose out on revenue that we could have got had it been on a Friday or Saturday, because that is what the trend suggests. Also, in selling the Pro12 to sponsors it doesn't look great showing an empty stadium on TV for the world to see, as has been mentioned before.

A few ulster fans were on a different thread saying it's great for them as they want Friday games, the broadcaster wants Friday games and the club wants Friday games. It works well for them. But if they were to be told to play 7 at home on a Sunday im sure a few of those fans would be on here saying "you know what, I'm not as keen on these Sunday games. It doesn't work as well for me". And that would be fine. That's all I'm doing, stating that it's not my preferred choice, or the choice of a number of fans as the crowds suggest, that it hits our revenue streams, that I'm disappointed we're not fighting (like Ulster do) for a better spot. That's alright, isn't it?

[Guest]

Slightly off topic I know, didn't know where else to post this, before tomorrows games the 4 Welsh Regions supporters Group have been invited to a meeting with the WRU and RRW at the Millenium Stadium. What a difference a year makes and getting rid of Prickering and the imminent departure of the Dodger makes, things are looking so much better with ALL the major players in Welsh Rugby singing from the same hymn sheet.
Long may it continue.

That's great to hear. But this sort of thing should be.... Normal. That it makes the news or something that needs posting on here shows how backward and poor the relationship was before. Hopefully signs that groups are rowing in the same direction (rowing as in paddling, not arguing of course!).

[Guest]

Slightly off topic I know, didn't know where else to post this, before tomorrows games the 4 Welsh Regions supporters Group have been invited to a meeting with the WRU and RRW at the Millenium Stadium. What a difference a year makes and getting rid of Prickering and the imminent departure of the Dodger makes, things are looking so much better with ALL the major players in Welsh Rugby singing from the same hymn sheet.
Long may it continue.

That's great to hear. But this sort of thing should be.... Normal. That it makes the news or something that needs posting on here shows how backward and poor the relationship was before. Hopefully signs that groups are rowing in the same direction (rowing as in paddling, not arguing of course!).

[Luckless Pedestrian]

What makes it worse is that they didn't even show all our home Sunday games on TV. If they weren't going to be televised, why shunt us to the crappest kick-off time?

[Guest]

Dragons: Geraint Rhys Jones, Tom Prydie, Tyler Morgan, Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos, Dorian Jones, Jonathan Evans; Phil Price, Rhys Buckley, Brok Harris, Matthew Screech, Rynard Landman (c), James Thomas, James Benjamin, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: T. Rhys Thomas, Luke Garrett, Lloyd Fairbrother, Nick Crosswell, Ollie Griffiths, Luc Jones, Carl Meyer, Ashton Hewitt.

He has got some things right and some things wrong with this selection. Personally, I would have had Meyer at 15, not Kingsley's son. It's good that Buckley has replaced TRT as we need to try sorting our lineout. Personally I wouldn't have completely bombed Tovey out (personally I think he's our best ten), but am glad Dan Way has been.

[wayne]

Ospreys Team
Dan Evans, Tom Grabham, Ben John, Josh Matavesi, Eli Walker, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb
Nicky Smith, Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis, Lloyd Peers, AWJ, Dan Lydiate, Justin Tipuric, Dan Baker
Replacements Sam Parry, Marc Thomas, Dmitri Arhip, Tyler Ardron, James King, Tom Habberfield, Sam Davies, Johnathan Spratt.
Would have preferred Dmitri before Jarvis to start, yet a decent bench and with the news that both Hassler and Steenkamp could be picked in an emergency, things are really looking up

[Pot Hale]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.  A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.   A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.  Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.   People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.   Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is no plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

TV deals do tend to set the agenda for days and kick-off times.  

Someone else commented recently (Chunky Norwich) on the disparity of games for the regions on Sundays versus games for the provinces - "Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?" was the comment.    

I'm not sure if this is a reference to league only or cup games as well.   Munster have not played any league games - home or away - on a Sunday this season.  They've played 5 home games on Friday and 2 away.   5 home games on a Saturday and 9 away and an away Thursday game.  

The Dragons played four at home and six away on a Sunday.  They've played 3 home games on a Saturday, and 5 away.  3 home games on a Friday and 1 away, and a Thursday game.  

So the majority of Munster games on a Saturday, and their home games split equally between Friday and Saturday.   With Dragons, nearly half their games on a Sunday, and their home games split nearly equally between Fri, Sat and Sun.  

What do Welsh supporters - such as Dragons - want instead?  No home or away games on a Sunday?  Does it matter as much if away games are on a Sunday against Italian, Scottish or Irish teams?

I can only speak as a fan of the Dragons, and yes the 7 home games we'll have this season on a Sunday seems a lot. Not such a problem away as I do not travel abroad for games. So just the home games. Part of putting 'our house in order' so we don't devalue the league any more is to get the biggest crowds possible. If historical data tells us that Sunday's are the worst day for drawing a crowd then I'm disappointed in the management for not fighting harder against it. I doubt we get more tv money for it as I believe it is split equally. So each time we have a Sunday game we lose out on revenue that we could have got had it been on a Friday or Saturday, because that is what the trend suggests. Also, in selling the Pro12 to sponsors it doesn't look great showing an empty stadium on TV for the world to see, as has been mentioned before.

A few ulster fans were on a different thread saying it's great for them as they want Friday games, the broadcaster wants Friday games and the club wants  Friday games. It works well for them. But if they were to be told to play 7 at home on a Sunday im sure a few of those fans would be on here  saying "you know what, I'm not as keen on these Sunday games. It doesn't work as well for me". And that would be fine. That's all I'm doing, stating that it's not my preferred choice, or the choice of a number of fans as the crowds suggest, that it hits our revenue streams, that I'm disappointed we're not fighting (like Ulster do) for a better spot. That's alright, isn't it?

Course it's all right.  You said in an earlier post "But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are. "

In your most recent post, however, you say it's 7 home games on a Sunday.   So I'm wondering what are the 10 or 7 home Sunday games you're referring to?  Dragons European games were 2 Friday home matches, and 2 Saturday home matches.   And they've had 5 home and 5 away Sunday matches in the league???   Is there Anglo-Welsh games in your calculations as well?  Or have I missed something?

btw, home league attendances this season:

8486 Thu (1 Jan)
7199 Fri
6019 Sun
5885 Sat
5823 Sun
5783 Fri
5162 Sun
5088 Sun
4180 Sun
53,625 total (53,278 last year up to same period)

European Games
8119 Sat SF
6119 Fri R2
5571 Sat R6
3936 Fri R4

[Pot Hale]

What makes it worse is that they didn't even show all our home Sunday games on TV. If they weren't going to be televised, why shunt us to the crappest kick-off time?

Last home game is on a Friday. It's not being televised either.

[Guest]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.  A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.   A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.  Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.   People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.   Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is no plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

TV deals do tend to set the agenda for days and kick-off times.  

Someone else commented recently (Chunky Norwich) on the disparity of games for the regions on Sundays versus games for the provinces - "Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?" was the comment.    

I'm not sure if this is a reference to league only or cup games as well.   Munster have not played any league games - home or away - on a Sunday this season.  They've played 5 home games on Friday and 2 away.   5 home games on a Saturday and 9 away and an away Thursday game.  

The Dragons played four at home and six away on a Sunday.  They've played 3 home games on a Saturday, and 5 away.  3 home games on a Friday and 1 away, and a Thursday game.  

So the majority of Munster games on a Saturday, and their home games split equally between Friday and Saturday.   With Dragons, nearly half their games on a Sunday, and their home games split nearly equally between Fri, Sat and Sun.  

What do Welsh supporters - such as Dragons - want instead?  No home or away games on a Sunday?  Does it matter as much if away games are on a Sunday against Italian, Scottish or Irish teams?

I can only speak as a fan of the Dragons, and yes the 7 home games we'll have this season on a Sunday seems a lot. Not such a problem away as I do not travel abroad for games. So just the home games. Part of putting 'our house in order' so we don't devalue the league any more is to get the biggest crowds possible. If historical data tells us that Sunday's are the worst day for drawing a crowd then I'm disappointed in the management for not fighting harder against it. I doubt we get more tv money for it as I believe it is split equally. So each time we have a Sunday game we lose out on revenue that we could have got had it been on a Friday or Saturday, because that is what the trend suggests. Also, in selling the Pro12 to sponsors it doesn't look great showing an empty stadium on TV for the world to see, as has been mentioned before.

A few ulster fans were on a different thread saying it's great for them as they want Friday games, the broadcaster wants Friday games and the club wants  Friday games. It works well for them. But if they were to be told to play 7 at home on a Sunday im sure a few of those fans would be on here  saying "you know what, I'm not as keen on these Sunday games. It doesn't work as well for me". And that would be fine. That's all I'm doing, stating that it's not my preferred choice, or the choice of a number of fans as the crowds suggest, that it hits our revenue streams, that I'm disappointed we're not fighting (like Ulster do) for a better spot. That's alright, isn't it?

Course it's all right.  You said in an earlier post "But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are. "

In your most recent post, however, you say it's 7 home games on a Sunday.   So I'm wondering what are the 10 or 7 home Sunday games you're referring to?  Dragons European games were 2 Friday home matches, and 2 Saturday home matches.   And they've had 5 home and 5 away Sunday matches in the league???   Is there Anglo-Welsh games in your calculations as well?  Or have I missed something?

btw, home league attendances this season:

8486 Thu (1 Jan)
7199 Fri
6019 Sun
5885 Sat
5823 Sun
5783 Fri
5162 Sun
5088 Sun
4180 Sun

My bad. 7 Sunday home games. 14 Sunday games in total, but looks like I included 2 away friendlies in there. Whoops.

[Pot Hale]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter though does it because that is not the only variable here.  A regular 12k crowd will spend significantly more or beer, tea, hotdogs and merchandise than a 4k one.

A 12k crowd week in week out will attract more sponsors.   A 12k crowd will mean recruiting better players is easier. Almost every player would rather play in front of a full house than play to the current crowds and is something that those going to France consistently mention.  Better players = better results which means better prize money, prestige and again better sponsorship deals.

The income from the paying punter is not as much an earner as sponsorship and prize money.   People have got out of the habit of going to games. Once you are at the point where you are turning people away on match day then you can look at raising prices again. Again basic economics.   Keeping prices high and hoping things will get better is no plan at all.  

Can't argue with much of that really.  And this is why I've got issues with the Dragons Sunday fixtures.  Yes I know it's down to TV deals or something.  But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are.  OK maybe we get more TV money.  But as you say half empty stadiums won't attract the sponsors or the players.  The stats show that Saturday afternoon and Friday evening attract more fans.

In terms of habit.  I think you're right too.  Fans from other nations ask us what the issue is with Sunday games.  Well Welsh club rugby was built on Saturday 3pm kick offs (roughly).  People now say they don't want it at that time as they're playing rugby and then can't follow their region.  But that never stopped the old Welsh top league from putting games on at that time previously.  Newport v Pontypool in the past would be on a saturday regardless of whether others were playing club rugby at the time.  And attendances were better then, we're told.  That habit was ingrained in people.  Now the fixtures fly around all over the place.  Sometimes Friday, some Saturday (rarely), Sunday, Thursday for Euro Cup.  The routine and habit has gone.  

TV deals do tend to set the agenda for days and kick-off times.  

Someone else commented recently (Chunky Norwich) on the disparity of games for the regions on Sundays versus games for the provinces - "Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?" was the comment.    

I'm not sure if this is a reference to league only or cup games as well.   Munster have not played any league games - home or away - on a Sunday this season.  They've played 5 home games on Friday and 2 away.   5 home games on a Saturday and 9 away and an away Thursday game.  

The Dragons played four at home and six away on a Sunday.  They've played 3 home games on a Saturday, and 5 away.  3 home games on a Friday and 1 away, and a Thursday game.  

So the majority of Munster games on a Saturday, and their home games split equally between Friday and Saturday.   With Dragons, nearly half their games on a Sunday, and their home games split nearly equally between Fri, Sat and Sun.  

What do Welsh supporters - such as Dragons - want instead?  No home or away games on a Sunday?  Does it matter as much if away games are on a Sunday against Italian, Scottish or Irish teams?

I can only speak as a fan of the Dragons, and yes the 7 home games we'll have this season on a Sunday seems a lot. Not such a problem away as I do not travel abroad for games. So just the home games. Part of putting 'our house in order' so we don't devalue the league any more is to get the biggest crowds possible. If historical data tells us that Sunday's are the worst day for drawing a crowd then I'm disappointed in the management for not fighting harder against it. I doubt we get more tv money for it as I believe it is split equally. So each time we have a Sunday game we lose out on revenue that we could have got had it been on a Friday or Saturday, because that is what the trend suggests. Also, in selling the Pro12 to sponsors it doesn't look great showing an empty stadium on TV for the world to see, as has been mentioned before.

A few ulster fans were on a different thread saying it's great for them as they want Friday games, the broadcaster wants Friday games and the club wants  Friday games. It works well for them. But if they were to be told to play 7 at home on a Sunday im sure a few of those fans would be on here  saying "you know what, I'm not as keen on these Sunday games. It doesn't work as well for me". And that would be fine. That's all I'm doing, stating that it's not my preferred choice, or the choice of a number of fans as the crowds suggest, that it hits our revenue streams, that I'm disappointed we're not fighting (like Ulster do) for a better spot. That's alright, isn't it?

Course it's all right.  You said in an earlier post "But the simple fact is that when you look at attendance stats they are lower on a Sunday at the Dragons.  Not a problem a couple of times a season. But 14 times this season, 10 at home.  10 home games x the loss in food, beer, and entrance fees adds up to a significant figure I expect.  I don't know the reasons - whether social, cultural or what.  But the figures are what they are. "

In your most recent post, however, you say it's 7 home games on a Sunday.   So I'm wondering what are the 10 or 7 home Sunday games you're referring to?  Dragons European games were 2 Friday home matches, and 2 Saturday home matches.   And they've had 5 home and 5 away Sunday matches in the league???   Is there Anglo-Welsh games in your calculations as well?  Or have I missed something?

btw, home league attendances this season:

8486 Thu (1 Jan)
7199 Fri
6019 Sun
5885 Sat
5823 Sun
5783 Fri
5162 Sun
5088 Sun
4180 Sun

My bad. 7 Sunday home games. 14 Sunday games in total, but looks like I included 2 away friendlies in there. Whoops.

So there's only been 5 Sunday home league games altogether, and 5 away Sunday games - is that right?  I ask because it would appear attendance figures are up overall compared to this time last season - see my edit in post above.

[Guest]

Well apart from the outlier that is the Munster Friday game (5783), which was the night before Wales v New Zealand so I'd expect a dip in attendance, the rest at the bottom of your attendance league there are all Sunday games so proves my point. You could add in the Sunday LV cup game v london Welsh at 4340, our second worst attendance this season, but again coming towards the bottom of that table.

[Guest]

Looking at last year too (which is not easy on the iPad so not 100% sure) but it would seem that our two Sunday games and 1 Thursday game were our lowest attendances that season in the league.

[Pot Hale]

Well apart from the outlier that is the Munster Friday game (5783), which was the night before Wales v New Zealand so I'd expect a dip in attendance, the rest at the bottom of your attendance league there are all Sunday games so proves my point. You could add in the Sunday LV cup game v london Welsh at 4340, our second worst attendance this season, but again coming towards the bottom of that table.

I'm trying to persuade you that the glass if half-full, not half-empty - focussing purely on the Pro12 league games.

If you look at my original post with the attendance figures further up, you'll see that I've totalled them to date for this season and compared it to same period last season - attendance figures are up overall this season is the point.

Last season there were 2 Sunday home games, this season there's been 5.   Two seasons ago, there were no Sunday home games, and total attendance was even lower:

2015 - 53,625
2014 - 53,278
2013 - 46,090

And your LV Cup attendances across four games is also up on last season too. Your worst attendance was in the LV on a Friday night against Ospreys.

On the face of it, the shift to Sundays might prove to be a good move from at attendance point of view. Probably need another season to see if growth/attendances continues improving.

[SecretFly]

7,000 extra bums is a notable uptake over two years. Pot kinda does it again with numbers Griff. It's difficult to argue that things are going downhill with Sunday games.

[Guest]

I was under the impression that attendances were on the rise across Wales (although I think the Ospreys were higher when they were doing better in Europe), which is great. So I'm not surprised we're higher this season compared to the last few. There was much more expectation this season too, we'd brought in some new signings, people were confident in the coaches, there was a buzz about the place. Awful first half of the season though so would have expected a drop, but good to see the increase.

[Guest]

7,000 extra bums is a notable uptake over two years.  Pot kinda does it again with numbers Griff.  It's difficult to argue that things are going downhill with Sunday games.

But looking at those figures it could haven been 10 or 11k extra bums on seats had they been Friday or Saturday games.

[Pot Hale]

I'm now intrigued enough by these actual figures to have a look at trends across other clubs and their correlation to match days and home/away variances.

Dragons would appear to have taken a good decision to not just halt but improve attendances.

And - thanks to Griff for info - a combo of the Millennium/WRU marketeers seem to have surpassed themselves in selling their April event. Good news for the league overall.

[Pot Hale]

7,000 extra bums is a notable uptake over two years.  Pot kinda does it again with numbers Griff.  It's difficult to argue that things are going downhill with Sunday games.

But looking at those figures it could haven been 10 or 11k extra bums on seats had they been Friday or Saturday games.

So from a season where there were no Sunday home games, to one where there five games, and an increase of 7k in overall attendances - your only conclusion is the missed opportunity if they'd left things as they were?

You're a hard man to please, Griff.

[Guest]

One variable that we haven't accounted for is the opposition. Comparing a Zebre Friday night attendance to a Munster Sunday game skews things a bit. If we had the All Blacks on a Sunday I'm sure we'd sell out as, unlike in Ireland, we tend to be drawn to the bigger games more, whereas the Irish will sell out regardless of oppositon. We're a bit like "Brian O'Driscoll is playing, let's go watch a legend", etc. Just another of our foibles I guess.  So a like for like comparison is perhaps better.

This season, even though attendances seem to be up overall, Treviso - nearly 1000 less this season for Sunday game over last season for Saturday game; Connacht - over 1000 less for this season's sunday game compared to last (also a sunday game); Leinster - over 1000 less for Sunday game this season compared to Friday game last year. We did have a bit more this year for Ulster on Sunday compared to last year though. Zebre was about the same.

[SecretFly]

7,000 extra bums is a notable uptake over two years.  Pot kinda does it again with numbers Griff.  It's difficult to argue that things are going downhill with Sunday games.

But looking at those figures it could haven been 10 or 11k extra bums on seats had they been Friday or Saturday games.

Ah come on now, Griff. 'MIGHT' might do - but you've already been given an 'IS' figure with the Sunday games.

[Guest]

7,000 extra bums is a notable uptake over two years.  Pot kinda does it again with numbers Griff.  It's difficult to argue that things are going downhill with Sunday games.

But looking at those figures it could haven been 10 or 11k extra bums on seats had they been Friday or Saturday games.

Ah come on now, Griff.  'MIGHT' might do - but you've already been given an 'IS' figure with the Sunday games.

Yes, Pot's nice table above shows that the Sunday games are in general the least attended games, and my post above shows that the same fixtures last year generally had better attendances than when switched to a Sunday this year. My conclusion from that is that the overall attendance rise we're seeing must lie in the Friday and Saturday fixtures as the Sunday fixtures (against the same teams) are showing a net loss.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

What makes it worse is that they didn't even show all our home Sunday games on TV. If they weren't going to be televised, why shunt us to the crappest kick-off time?

Last home game is on a Friday.   It's not being televised either.

Exactly. S4C have rights to Sunday games, but if they're not showing our Sunday games, why are they Sunday games at all? Why can't they be played on the Friday?

[SecretFly]

Exactly.

Now someone in Wales needs to answer the question...'why?

[Guest]

P.s. Sorry for ruining the thread Welsh posters. Went off at a tangent.

[Breadvan]

Ospreys Team
Dan Evans, Tom Grabham, Ben John, Josh Matavesi, Eli Walker, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb
Nicky Smith, Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis, Lloyd Peers, AWJ, Dan Lydiate, Justin Tipuric, Dan Baker
Replacements Sam Parry, Marc Thomas, Dmitri Arhip, Tyler Ardron, James King, Tom Habberfield, Sam Davies, Johnathan Spratt.
Would have preferred Dmitri before Jarvis to start, yet a decent bench and with the news that both Hassler and Steenkamp could be picked in an emergency, things are really looking up

No Dirksen Wayne? Not on the injured list yet not in the squad at all. He's our most explosive back yet has been in and out of the squad all season.

[Notch]

This attendance is fantastic to see, and hopefully something the regions can build on

[SecretFly]

Yeah, you've brought the buoyant mood down again, Griff!

Enjoy Judgement Day Wales ... I know I didn't really enjoy Cut-Throat Night in Belfast.

[Pot Hale]

One variable that we haven't accounted for is the opposition. Comparing a Zebre Friday night attendance to a Munster Sunday game skews things a bit. If we had the All Blacks on a Sunday I'm sure we'd sell out as, unlike in Ireland, we tend to be drawn to the bigger games more, whereas the Irish will sell out regardless of oppositon. We're a bit like "Brian O'Driscoll is playing, let's go watch a legend", etc. Just another of our foibles I guess.  So a like for like comparison is perhaps better.

This season, even though attendances seem to be up overall, Treviso - nearly 1000 less this season for Sunday game over last season for Saturday game; Connacht - over 1000 less for this season's sunday game compared to last (also a sunday game); Leinster - over 1000 less for Sunday game this season compared to Friday game last year. We did have a bit more this year for Ulster on Sunday compared to last year though. Zebre was about the same.

Hmmm. Yeah, you're right - attendances are falling and Sundays are contributing to it. Hopefully, Dragons management can sort that out for next season.

[Guest]

So, against my better judgement I have gone to Cardiff. Train was carnage down, so seems a bad idea already

[Guest]

Great start Blouse. So close Ospreys then though.

Has Clancy pulled out of reffing Dragons game yet?

[Pot Hale]

Great start Blouse. So close Ospreys then though.

Has Clancy pulled out of reffing Dragons game yet?

Why would he?

[wales606]

I have criticised him a lot for the last couple of years, and really started to doubt if he had any place in regional rugby, but happy to say, Lloyd Williams has proved me completely wrong this season,

He has been one of our few good points in a miserable season.

[The Saint]

Williams has improved but his no.9 skills are generally poor. Whilst Webb sometimes walks sidesways before passing (that's his game I guess, being top try-scorer and all that) Williams seems to walk backwards.

[The Saint]

So, against my better judgement I have gone to Cardiff. Train was carnage down, so seems a bad idea already

Good man. Stadium seems a bit quiet though.

[wales606]

Weak weak defence, lock running through a hole a mile wide

[wales606]

More urine poor defence

[The Saint]

Basic skills by the Blues are just vastly inferior, that's what happens when you show a good coach the door.

[IanBru]

Arse-Falcon!!

[wales606]

Wow, ref Clancy really messed that up. He was clearly obstructing the Dragons defenders there.

Don't know how he could give that as a try.

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