Welsh Rugby Pyramid

First topic message reminder :

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The disenfranchised fans in Wales wouldn't turn up to watch the regions if they played in the Pro12 or the Super15 though.

Fair enough. Again FWIW. I think there should be a ground up process begun in Wales. In an attempt to build a proper pyramid structure.

Consulting with every member of Rugby clubs at every level. Find out what team/region etc. that the individual wants to have allegiance to.

Collate all the results no matter how outlandish and see if you can make an attempt to satisfy as many as possible.

At least if everyone had a vote (all you have to do to get one is join a Rugby club at any level if you are not already a member) it might be easier to sell the result to the people who lost the most.

Regional fans could vote on what smaller clubs they wanted to feed into them and visa versa through the tiers.

To me one of the main issues is that Regions are excluded from the grass roots AND from any input into team Wales.

Perhaps Roger the dodger leaving would be a good time to start the campaign?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is going off topic now, but why should amateur clubs who can't afford their electricity bills have any say on hos multi-million pound pro sports teams are run, and vice versa?

They shouldn't. But they should be able to decide which "Region" (or larger club in the case of small clubs) they want to feed into, even if it is one that doesn't currently exist.

Surely you would want a proper structure where everyone can row in the same direction? (barring those that are too pig headed to)

Anyway. Sorry for cluttering up your thread. Judgement Day = a good thing and I'll leave it at that.

Steffan wrote:Personally I think there are only 2 real options to change Welsh domestic rugby for the better

Fold the "regions", drop out of the Pro 12 and have a domestic Welsh club league of about 8 teams. This would allow more players to be exposed at competitive rugby and we wouldn't the player shortage like we do now. Plus we could halt the matches during the international period so players don't get injured in between and people are not paying good money to watch second string sides

The other is to install proper regions that represent the whole of Wales not just towns and cities and play in the Aviva Premiership. Plus games could be taken on the road. This would then be bringing rugby to the people as opposed to people being expected to turn up to one venue all the time

I would be happy with either of these options

Splitting this off from the current Judgement Day thread.

Sometimes outsider can see things that insiders are to close to notice. Other times they may be too naive and unaware of all of the issues.

Personally I don't think either of Steffan's options are good. What I am talking about is working within the existing Regional framework and trying to put a structure on it.

If a new Region is ever to be created then this process may help identify where that is best done. Obvious candidates are the RGC1404 and some form of Valleys team which roughly corresponds to Celtic warriors patch.

If the WRU forced through the RGC one because they could control it (against the wishes of the majority of fans/club members) That would be obvious.

If there were in fact not enough support for "Valleys Rugby" then at least you could say it had been looked at.

I'm sure most of you will say that I am.....

A: Naive.

B: know nothing about Welsh Rugby ans so should shut up

and/or

C: I am obsessed with getting everyone in Wales on the same page because I come from "union controlled" Ireland.

Sure so what. I have only wasted 10 minutes of my time.

LordDowlais wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:That's the nub of it really. The warriors Region failed.

This is what really boils my pee, so the warriors failed did they ? The Warriors were half a million quid in debt. Leyton Samuels sold them to the WRU and the WRU disbanded them, then fast forward a year or two, the same WRU bailed Scarlets out to the tune of a couple of million, and then bought half of Dragons. So if Warriors failed, then so did Scarlets and Dragons, so I do not buy into this failed crap, why weren't Warriors afforded the same rescue packages as the other two ? Look, I am not getting into this argument, we are where we are and we need to make it work, and it is just my opinion that things were done wrong from the start.

Just a small correction LD. I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that the WRU didn't buy half the Dragons. The rule at the time was that (I'm assuming for those merged clubs only and not standalone Blues or Scarlets) the merged regions needed two partners. When Ebbw Vale left the Dragons partnership the wru came in as the 2nd partner to make up the numbers. They didn't buy anything as far as I can remember. Maybe they paid a nominal fee like £1 or something to legally become a partner. But they certainly didn't pay to join or buy half of anything.

LordDowlais wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You can hardly blame the Scarlets fans?

I am not blaming Scarlets fans.

Good.    Still leaves at least 4 options

LordDowlais wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Perhaps they did in the case of the Scarlets or perhaps it was easier because they had a history.

As I said earlier, the WRU bailed  Scarlets out, and it was a LOT more money than what they paid to disband Warriors, it's just the WRU only wanted 4 regions, and Warriors were the first chance they had to get rid of one.

That is the most likely scenario. As I said circumstances.

Looking purely at the geography and the population.

If you wanted to make regions and keep the existing ones.... (and I feel like the English civil servant who created Iraq out of a few provinces of the Ottoman empire here)

I believe there is a Dyfed and Powys police district.... (You have to put Powys somewhere as it's so small)

So either add them to the Scarlets instead of North Wales or add them to a region who they may be closer to geographically.


North Wales may not have much Rugby history but it has almost 700k people. All in the one "Region"


Gwent seems happy enough almost 600k people


Ospreys look good. Swansea and Neath-Port Talbot add up to 380k people Bridgend another 140k


Leaving the hard part til last......

Do you hive off Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan into a separate region? (just under half a million souls)

And create a...... Lets call it "Mid Glamorgan" Region? Less than 300k people without Bridgend.

Basically Merthyr and Rhondda Cynon Taf.

HQ Sardis rd?

Do you add in Powys? (and does it matter?) Do you add in Bridgend? (Still no one answered me as to whether they are happy in with the Ospreys in West Glamorgan)


Do Ponty become a Super Club? If so, do they still exist in the Prem like Lanelli and Cardiff do?


It's a focking mess.(as you have all said repeatedly)


If Wales can ever sustain a 5th Region it looks like the WRU would favour a north Wales one ahead of a Valleys one. But back to my Iraq situation (and that one went well didn't it?)



North wales (Clwyd & Gwynedd) Population 688k (RGC 1404)

Flintshire
Wrexham
Gwynedd
Conwy
Denbighshire
Anglsea

Gwent Population 577k (Dragons)

Caerphilly
Newport
Monmouthshire
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

West Glamorgan Population 518k (Ospreys)

Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
Bridgend


Dyfed & Powys Population 515k (Scarlets)

Carmarthenshire
Powys
Pembrokeshire
Ceredigion

Cardiff & The Vale Population 472k (Blues)


The Leftovers Population 293k (Currently Blues.... Allegedly)

Rhondda Cynon Taf
Merthyr Tydfil

OK you could stick Powys in as well instead of with the Scarlets (that's an extra 133k) You could also add in Bridgend by taking it back from the Ospreys (another 140k)


Turn it on it's head and put the Valleys first


The Valleys Population 565k (The New True Region)

Rhondda Cynon Taf
Merthyr Tydfil
Powys
Bridgend


Dyfed 382k (Scarlets)

Carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
Ceredigion

West Glamorgan Population 379k (Ospreys)

Swansea
Neath Port Talbot

Gwent Population 577k (Dragons)

Caerphilly
Newport
Monmouthshire
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

North wales (Clwyd & Gwynedd) Population 688k (RGC 1404)

Flintshire
Wrexham
Gwynedd
Conwy
Denbighshire
Anglsea

Cardiff & The Vale Population 472k (Blues)

Any better?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Any better?

I'd have a lie down if I were ewe mun.

Steffan wrote:
I agree. My family are loaded yet the amount of times someone from a council house in Cardiff (not that there is anything wrong with that but people in glass houses etc.) have given me the whole..."Oh you're from Ponty are you. I best make sure my car is locked when your around etc."

One girl I worked with text me once saying she was up my 'up my neck of the woods'. Turned out she was in Merthyr. Yeah cos Merthyr is really up Pontypridd's neck of the woods ain't it. Another one once referred to the pink cowboy hate brigade as "your lot". I'm proud to be Welsh but the cultural and geographic ignorance from Kaaaaairdiff people at times really makes a lot of them hard to like which is a shame as it's a wonderful city to work and live in

Reading this made me think - and certainly no offence intended Steffan - but Merthyr and Ponty are less than 13 miles apart. It's only 12 miles from Cardiff to Ponty.

My point is that whether you think Merthyr and Ponty are in the "same neck of the woods" or not, they are not exactly different time zones. Welsh rugby and all its' history and emotion is concentrated in such a tiny piece of geography. Is it any wonder that an artificial regional system born out of big club rivalry has struggled?

There is no going back - but it will take further change and a generation or two yet.

I'm enjoying these discussions Jen. Seriously, it's good to debate this sort of stuff. Usually people from outside wales hate it, so good to see you intereted and suggesting some solutions.

My only issues with your above proposals is the following:

Firstly, it sounds like you're suggesting another Welsh region to make it up to 5. Not a bad idea as such. I'm on the fence a bit about it to be honest. I just wonder where the funding will come from. The regions complain/grumble/maybe have genuine concerns that they struggle with tv and union funding as it is. Another region would slice the funding cake into fifths instead of quarters so this may lead to even more problems when competing with other nations on (alledgedly) more. Not sure we've be more competitive spreading the players round more teams either.

Also, the suggestion above about a Valleys team. The Valleys is a pretty well defined area with people identifying as 'Valleys' people. That includes about half of Gwent (Blaenau Gwent, top of Torfaen and possibly parts of Caerphilly). They'd have to be included in The Valleys region. They'd kick off if they weren't! But for the Dragons that might lead to them standing along as Newport without our Valleys partners in Ebbw Vale. I'm sure some wouldn't mind but others might complain!

I honestly don't know the answer Jen! There's too much risk and cost setting up something brand new that isn't tied to the old clubs but is made up to a large extent. People are not 'Powys Men' in Wales like they might be Munstermen in Ireland. It doesn't mean anything really. It's just your local government and who you pay your council tax to! And making counties join together means even less. They're largely just lines on a map to us.

So the original clubs seems the best place to start (as they did in 2003). The old clubs have the venues so they need to be involved really from a cost point of view. But that brings with it the old rivalries thing. Unfortunately in Wales society has developed based on inter town and village rivalry and competition. Rugby has just mirrored this so it's very difficult to get people to associate with towns next door. Very sad really! But unfortunately ingrained in the psyche.

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

Celtic Warriors 19 - 12 Newport Gwent Dragons
Friday 24 October 2003
ko 19-05 (think it was on the telly and IIRC the camera panned towards the entrance to see how many were entering the building)
Attendance: 2100

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/match_centre_rabo.php?section=overview&fixid=192

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

Celtic Warriors 19 - 12 Newport Gwent Dragons
Friday 24 October 2003
ko 19-05 (think it was on the telly and IIRC the camera panned towards the entrance to see how many were entering the building)
Attendance: 2100

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/match_centre_rabo.php?section=overview&fixid=192

They were all down the road watching Cardiff v Connacht.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

Celtic Warriors 19 - 12 Newport Gwent Dragons
Friday 24 October 2003
ko 19-05 (think it was on the telly and IIRC the camera panned towards the entrance to see how many were entering the building)
Attendance: 2100

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/match_centre_rabo.php?section=overview&fixid=192

They were all down the road watching Cardiff v Connacht.

Out shopping more likely. Attendances back then were mostly pants right across the board and some supporters had already walked.

Griff wrote:I'm enjoying these discussions Jen. Seriously, it's good to debate this sort of stuff. Usually people from outside wales hate it, so good to see you intereted and suggesting some solutions.

Normally Welsh posters tell me to pi$$ off and do some research because I know nothing about Welsh Rugby.

Griff wrote:
My only issues with your above proposals is the following:

Firstly, it sounds like you're suggesting another Welsh region to make it up to 5.

Not suggesting 5 at all. just playing with the geography and population

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
If Wales can ever sustain a 5th Region it looks like the WRU would favour a north Wales one ahead of a Valleys one.

I don't think it is time for a 5th Region. Just if there was ever the appetite and/or cash for one in the future where would you put it.

North Wales is clean and simple with a big population, but I suspect that the rugby followers per head of population in the Valleys would be a lot higher. So, likely a lot more ready made rugby supporters.

Valleys is anything but clean and simple though.

Griff wrote:IThe Valleys is a pretty well defined area with people identifying as 'Valleys' people. That includes about half of Gwent (Blaenau Gwent, top of Torfaen and possibly parts of Caerphilly). They'd have to be included in The Valleys region. They'd kick off if they weren't! But for the Dragons that might lead to them standing along as Newport without our Valleys partners in Ebbw Vale. I'm sure some wouldn't mind but others might complain!

And that's without mentioning Bridgend. So you have to carve out parts of 2 (or 3) existing Regions to bring it to life.

AND there is what to do with Ponty. Super strong as a club (with help from some Blues players) But not strong enough to be a Region?

It'll take a better man than me to get it over the line.

I'd go for North Wales personally. Nothing against Ponty or the rest of the valleys, I just think we're all very congested down here and the North is 1) uncongested, rugby wise. And 2) there's a lot of players up there that can and do go under the radar, often being picked up by Sale and Leicester. In the south players usually get picked up, even if they're at a club which does not have a good relationship with their region. But first we need to sort the finances out for 5. And we would need to convince our pals in the Pro12 to let another team in and thus increase matches played by an extra 2. AND The Euro cup letting a newbie in!

Convince Scotland to bring in another one and stick the Italians in Pro D2.....

Don't tell them I said that though

Griff wrote:AND The Euro cup letting a newbie in!

I reckon we should stick two finger up towards that competition, and just play our non internationals in it and concentrate on improving our product, the Pro12.

LD, the problem is our players want to play in it. If they're denied it, or think they're in a side that will struggle in it, they will leave for teams who do want to do well in it. Just read the JD2 article recently. That's why he left - for the chance of silverware, to play in semis and finals, to rub shoulders with the top players. We'd have no big name players left with which to concentrate on the Pro12!

LordDowlais wrote: the WRU bailed  Scarlets out.

Run me through this.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: the WRU bailed  Scarlets out.

Run me through this.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-consider-scarlets-request-loan-2303381

I think thew local councel loaned them money as well.

And then this:-

http://www.llanellistar.co.uk/Scarlets-receive-pound-900k-free-loan-Welsh-Rugby/story-22936643-detail/story.html

There it is it's all there for you.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: the WRU bailed  Scarlets out.

Run me through this.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-consider-scarlets-request-loan-2303381

I think thew local councel loaned them money as well.

And then this:-

http://www.llanellistar.co.uk/Scarlets-receive-pound-900k-free-loan-Welsh-Rugby/story-22936643-detail/story.html

There it is it's all there for you.

Now run me through how a loan = a "bail out"

EDIT: Also did the Scarlets even receive that £2m loan?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Also did the Scarlets even receive that £2m loan?

no they had a 900,000 interest free loan from the WRU and the council helped out with the rest.

So that is a bail out from the WRU and the council.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Also did the Scarlets even receive that £2m loan?

no they had a 900,000 interest free loan from the WRU and the council helped out with the rest.

So that is a bail out from the WRU and the council.

So it was more disparaging rubbish from the Western Mail towards the scarlets. What a shocker.

Why are you so angry at this?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are you so angry at this?

Who said I was angry ? I was very peeved at the time, but life goes on, I support who I feel these days, I was just pointing out to our Irish friend, Jenifer McLadyboy, on this debate that if Warriors failed, then so did Scarlets and Dragons, if he wants to debate with us on this, then it's only fair that WE tell him the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so we must also tell what we have conveniently forgotten as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are you so angry at this?

Who said I was angry ? I was very peeved at the time, but life goes on, I support who I feel these days, I was just pointing out to our Irish friend, Jenifer McLadyboy, on this debate that if Warriors failed, then so did Scarlets and Dragons, if he wants to debate with us on this, then it's only fair that WE tell him the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so we must also tell what we have conveniently forgotten as well.

I think time has told us who out of the Warriors, Dragons and Scarlets have failed.

Lets also not forget that Pontypridd went into administration, and were given match funding on unsecured loans weren't they? Or doesn't that apply?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Lets also not forget that Pontypridd went into administration, and were given match funding on unsecured loans weren't they? Or doesn't that apply?

We are talking about the regions aren't we ?

Like I have said, it was all done wrong from the start, but we are where we are now, so we need to make it work, but I asked some questions yesterday, that you did not answer, so I will as them again.

Who did you support pre regionalism ?

Do you see Scarlets as the same team as Llanelli ?

What sacrifices have you been made to take since regionalism ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Who did you support pre regionalism ?

Llanelli RFC

Do you see Scarlets as the same team as Llanelli ?

The old Llanelli RFC? Yes pretty much

What sacrifices have you been made to take since regionalism ?

In terms of watching my team every fortnight? Mostly the dreadful gross mis-mnagement of professional domestic rugby in Wales in the last 10 years by the WRU.

What's your point?

My point is my old chum, NOTHING has changed for you, so you should count yourself as a very lucky supporter, nobody made you join with Neath or Swansea, you were allowed to carry on as normal, the only upheaval you have had to put with is a move a few miles down the road to a nice shiny state of the art stadium, that must have been a bind for you, so before you start using analogies from the premiership football just remember you were not forced into anything like the teams from the valleys were, so please show some understanding.

LordDowlais wrote:My point is my old chum, NOTHING has changed for you, so you should count yourself as a very lucky supporter, nobody made you join with Neath or Swansea, you were allowed to carry on as normal, the only upheaval you have had to put with is a move a few miles down the road to a nice shiny state of the art stadium, that must have been a bind for you, so before you start using analogies from the premiership football just remember you were not forced into anything like the teams from the valleys were, so please show some understanding.

The thing is a lot of people did show understanding for the Valleys. The thing is you can only take so much of people moaning before you lose any empathy for them. The truth is that for many of the former Warriors fans their new region (Blues or Ospreys) is closer to them than PYS is to a large percentage of Scarlets fans.

LordDowlais wrote:My point is my old chum, NOTHING has changed for you, so you should count yourself as a very lucky supporter, nobody made you join with Neath or Swansea, you were allowed to carry on as normal, the only upheaval you have had to put with is a move a few miles down the road to a nice shiny state of the art stadium, that must have been a bind for you, so before you start using analogies from the premiership football just remember you were not forced into anything like the teams from the valleys were, so please show some understanding.

No we were not forced into anything. Because we stood our ground. Camped overnight at our stadium. Threatened legal action, took our case to the WRU etc etc

Maybe if other had a stronger case they would have succeeded too. And yes, I thank the lord every day that I was born a scarlet fan and still am.

This is very Welsh though. If you fail, you look at those that didn't fail and pour scorn upon them, not look at your own failings. Very Welsh.

Chunky Norwich wrote:No we were not forced into anything. Because we stood our ground. Camped overnight at our stadium. Threatened legal action, took our case to the WRU etc etc

And if everybody did that, Welsh rugby would not exist now, not professionally anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:No we were not forced into anything. Because we stood our ground. Camped overnight at our stadium. Threatened legal action, took our case to the WRU etc etc

And if everybody did that, Welsh rugby would not exist now, not professionally anyway.

Why's that?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why's that?

Because there was not enough money, or good players to go around the clubs at the time, almost every club was losing money hand over fist, and none of the best players were playing together regularly, also, you would have an intense game in Europe one week, then have a cricket score on Treorchy the next week. It was not working in the pro era.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why's that?

Because there was not enough money, or good players to go around the clubs at the time,  almost every club was losing money hand over fist, and none of the best players were playing together regularly, also, you would have an intense game in Europe one week, then have a cricket score on Treorchy the next week. It was not working in the pro era.

So Pontypridd, by not being a professional region, saved Welsh rugby?

Thus is awesome.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So Pontypridd, by not being a professional region, saved Welsh rugby?

Thus is awesome.

What ? How do you come to that conclusion ?

In all honesty I kind of feel whatever the wrongs and rights are of the situation despite what we all think of the setup, what our opinions are of changing it for the better...nothing is going to change now

I'll carry on watching Ponty whatever. Shame that we can't go any further after winning league and cup doubles all the time but that's just the way it is. I should probably just sit back and enjoy the season after season semi-professional success I guess

You will never catch me down at the Arms Park chanting Kaaaaaairdif. Not because I'm protesting, not because I'm being stubborn...I just have no interest really. Same as no Cardiff fan would have any interest if their "region" was called Pontypridd Black & Whites and all home games were at Sardis Road

I guess I'll just have keep chanting PONTY...PONTY...PONTY

OLE

Steffan wrote:In all honesty I kind of feel whatever the wrongs and rights are of the situation despite what we all think of the setup, what our opinions are of changing it for the better...nothing is going to change now

I'll carry on watching Ponty whatever. Shame that we can't go any further after winning league and cup doubles all the time but that's just the way it is. I should probably just sit back and enjoy the season after season semi-professional success I guess

You will never catch me down at the Arms Park chanting Kaaaaaairdif. Not because I'm protesting, not because I'm being stubborn...I just have no interest really. Same as no Cardiff fan would have any interest if their "region" was called Pontypridd Black & Whites and all home games were at Sardis Road

I guess I'll just have keep chanting PONTY...PONTY...PONTY

OLE

Good on you mate. I wouldn't expect anything else. Genuinely. No one has to support a 'region'. But just don't bad mouth or run down those that do.

Griff wrote:

Steffan wrote:In all honesty I kind of feel whatever the wrongs and rights are of the situation despite what we all think of the setup, what our opinions are of changing it for the better...nothing is going to change now

I'll carry on watching Ponty whatever. Shame that we can't go any further after winning league and cup doubles all the time but that's just the way it is. I should probably just sit back and enjoy the season after season semi-professional success I guess

You will never catch me down at the Arms Park chanting Kaaaaaairdif. Not because I'm protesting, not because I'm being stubborn...I just have no interest really. Same as no Cardiff fan would have any interest if their "region" was called Pontypridd Black & Whites and all home games were at Sardis Road

I guess I'll just have keep chanting PONTY...PONTY...PONTY

OLE

Good on you mate.  I wouldn't expect anything else.  Genuinely.  No one has to support a 'region'.  But just don't bad mouth or run down those that do.

Exactly what I have been saying Griff, its down to individual choices. I have regular lets say debates with friends and family from Ebbw who don't support the Dragons that's up to them but I have chosen to it's my choice.

Yes Bedford. If Everton dropped out of the premier league their fans wouldnt be told to follow Liverpool now that their own side were out of the top flight. I've always felt the same for rugby in wales. And this is another reason the regional/provincial model is at odds with our club game. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone from, let's say Abertillery, being a diehard fan and not caring if they played in the premier league, 2nd division or even 5th. That's their club and they'll give up their saturdays to support. And that's the ingrained league mentality we have in us - promotion, relegation, support them regardless. I don't think its right that they should either feel pressured to stop supporting that team in favour of their pro region or be asked support (in terms of attendance) both. But I think that's still a hang over from the club league structure for me (and I guess many others). This provincial/regional concept is still a bit alien to me even after all these years. For a lot of club supporters any other team will still feel like a rival. Even those that are meant to represent them on a geographical/regional level.

God yeah I have said all along that this is a generation thing. Some of my generation and others on these boards and fans of the clubs know what they old club system was like and they choose to carry on supporting their club. I still watch Ebbw when I can and I go to Dragons games with a Steelmen cap just to show I am not from Newport but do support the Dragons etc.

All Regions should now be focusing on the next generation, the ones that know very little about the old club system and just want to go and watch their heroes play, yes it is a shame that those heroes don't now play for local clubs but that's how it is.

The Dragons are doing great work within Gwent as a whole and not just the Newport area. I had a great chat and laugh with a very good friend of mine who is involved with RTBs up in Ebbw a while.

His grandson is playing for them and they mascots at one of the Dragons games (want to say Leinster but not 100%) and the kids could take 2 adults so he wanted my mate to go. Now previously he had said he would never go to watch the Dragons for various reasons but he grudgingly admitted that it was a good evening out and that the kids were treated great by the Regions and the players.

Good stuff Bedford.

This has got me thinking, and one thing I never really consider is the fact that these 'regions' have been forced on the lower league clubs too. I always think from the point of view of the Pro clubs they were originally forced on. But these lower league clubs are suddenly feeding up into something when in the past they've always been looking to climb the ladder and be at the top themselves. We talk about the fans in wales but I wonder how much the clubs in the lower leagues push the regional message? The message probably comes downwards from the region's and the WRU, but what's the acceptance? How much do they feel a part of feeding up into a pro club recipient? How much do they sell the regional concept to their young players? I know the regions' coaches go out into the clubs and community to run coaching clinics, etc. But have we got to a point where we have club loyalty to the region from the lower levels? (Semi pro level has been done to death. I think we know where we stand there). I really doubt that we have. Again, perhpas a generational issue. Do we need to wait for the lower leagues club players and coaches to die out too?

No.  All you need is a Memory Loss Elixir spread by a few Crop Dusters over and back along the south coast of Wales.

That would end all the memories of yesteryear and allow a fresh start.

First thought from a really intelligent and savvy guy who has no memory of the past: "You know what?!!!!  I think I have a great idea to put Professional Welsh Rugby on the World Map!  I see it all!!!!  It's going to be bloomin' marvellous! -  Jenny, scrap that application form I was planning on sending to Cardiff Airport, I think I've just got a new vocation.  I might even try out for the Head of the WRU"

Griff wrote:Good stuff Bedford.

This has got me thinking, and one thing I never really consider is the fact that these 'regions' have been forced on the lower league clubs too. I always think from the  point of view of the Pro clubs they were originally forced on. But these lower league clubs are suddenly feeding up into something when in the past they've always been looking to climb the ladder and be at the top themselves. We talk about the fans in wales but I wonder how much the clubs in the lower leagues push the regional message? The message probably comes downwards from the region's and the WRU, but what's the acceptance? How much do they feel a part of feeding up into a pro club recipient? How much do they sell the regional concept to their young players? I know the regions' coaches go out into the clubs and community to run coaching clinics, etc. But have we got to a point where we have club loyalty to the region from the lower levels? (Semi pro level has been done to death. I think we know where we stand there). I really doubt that we have. Again, perhpas a generational issue. Do we need to wait for the lower leagues club players and coaches to die out too?

Didn't the regions come out and say that the WRU actively discouraged connections between the Regions and the "grass roots" clubs. That was the thrust of this thread (originally) trying to engineer a situation where there was a pyramid and the points above and below were "rowing in the same direction" feeding into and being fed from each other.

I realise that there has been a lot of bad blood between the various levels but if they had a framework that was agreed upon where they would at least listen to each other (for starters)

If Every level was out for the good of Welsh Rugby (at all levels) you would be moving in the right direction. No one is expecting sworn enemies to become best mates overnight, but if everyone was to look at the big picture rather than just their little piece of it......

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:]

Didn't the regions come out and say that the WRU actively discouraged connections between the Regions and the "grass roots" clubs. That was the thrust of this thread (originally) trying to engineer a situation where there was a pyramid and the points above and below were "rowing in the same direction" feeding into and being fed from each other.

.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

There you go.

"It's a shambles and we need to get our stuff together or we die."

2 years on having made their peace, shakey or not. This sh1t should be addressed.

Well Roger Lewis has gone now so we should start to see changes, Roger did not want a strong bond between the regions and the clubs, he was more of a divide and conquer person, he did not want the regions to have too much power.

Now I hear he wants to cut the connection between incoming/outgoing planes and the control tower.

He's a divil for innovative ideas.

LordDowlais wrote:Well Roger Lewis has gone now so we should start to see changes, Roger did not want a strong bond between the regions and the clubs, he was more of a divide and conquer person, he did not want the regions to have too much power.

Correction - he didn't want the regions to have any power.