Welsh Rugby Pyramid

First topic message reminder :

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The disenfranchised fans in Wales wouldn't turn up to watch the regions if they played in the Pro12 or the Super15 though.

Fair enough. Again FWIW. I think there should be a ground up process begun in Wales. In an attempt to build a proper pyramid structure.

Consulting with every member of Rugby clubs at every level. Find out what team/region etc. that the individual wants to have allegiance to.

Collate all the results no matter how outlandish and see if you can make an attempt to satisfy as many as possible.

At least if everyone had a vote (all you have to do to get one is join a Rugby club at any level if you are not already a member) it might be easier to sell the result to the people who lost the most.

Regional fans could vote on what smaller clubs they wanted to feed into them and visa versa through the tiers.

To me one of the main issues is that Regions are excluded from the grass roots AND from any input into team Wales.

Perhaps Roger the dodger leaving would be a good time to start the campaign?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is going off topic now, but why should amateur clubs who can't afford their electricity bills have any say on hos multi-million pound pro sports teams are run, and vice versa?

They shouldn't. But they should be able to decide which "Region" (or larger club in the case of small clubs) they want to feed into, even if it is one that doesn't currently exist.

Surely you would want a proper structure where everyone can row in the same direction? (barring those that are too pig headed to)

Anyway. Sorry for cluttering up your thread. Judgement Day = a good thing and I'll leave it at that.

Steffan wrote:Personally I think there are only 2 real options to change Welsh domestic rugby for the better

Fold the "regions", drop out of the Pro 12 and have a domestic Welsh club league of about 8 teams. This would allow more players to be exposed at competitive rugby and we wouldn't the player shortage like we do now. Plus we could halt the matches during the international period so players don't get injured in between and people are not paying good money to watch second string sides

The other is to install proper regions that represent the whole of Wales not just towns and cities and play in the Aviva Premiership. Plus games could be taken on the road. This would then be bringing rugby to the people as opposed to people being expected to turn up to one venue all the time

I would be happy with either of these options

Splitting this off from the current Judgement Day thread.

Sometimes outsider can see things that insiders are to close to notice. Other times they may be too naive and unaware of all of the issues.

Personally I don't think either of Steffan's options are good. What I am talking about is working within the existing Regional framework and trying to put a structure on it.

If a new Region is ever to be created then this process may help identify where that is best done. Obvious candidates are the RGC1404 and some form of Valleys team which roughly corresponds to Celtic warriors patch.

If the WRU forced through the RGC one because they could control it (against the wishes of the majority of fans/club members) That would be obvious.

If there were in fact not enough support for "Valleys Rugby" then at least you could say it had been looked at.

I'm sure most of you will say that I am.....

A: Naive.

B: know nothing about Welsh Rugby ans so should shut up

and/or

C: I am obsessed with getting everyone in Wales on the same page because I come from "union controlled" Ireland.

Sure so what. I have only wasted 10 minutes of my time.

Do you remember the old Schweppes cup finals Steff ? They were a brill day out.

LordDowlais wrote:Do you remember the old Schweppes cup finals Steff ? They were a brill day out

Yeah I used to go to them every year. I actually used to enjoy them more than the internationals. Everyone used to flock into town even if their team wasn't in the final (although it was always more amazing if your team was there). It was like a massive end of season party. Great days indeed

So people that didn't support either team would still turn up for the 'event' and the idea of having a good time together and the rugby on display?

Should not those principles still be in the minds of rugby lovers?  Why so much lingering friction then between clubs and the 'plastic' regions?  Is it not all rugby - there to be celebrated because it's all Welsh? Club, Regional, International.

SecretFly wrote:Should not those principles still be in the minds of rugby lovers?  Why so much lingering friction then between clubs and the 'plastic' regions?  Is it not all rugby - there to be celebrated because it's all Welsh?  Club, Regional, International

In an ideal world yes. The club game is not what it used to be though in Wales (while in England it's stronger than ever)

Plus back then you could have a bit of friendly banter with supporters from other clubs where as now if you made a joke about Cardiff or Newport being crap you are a "traitor to your region, traitor to your country and a bitter narrow minded bigot etc."

Now apparently inter club rivalry (which is what makes sport so fun) is considered bad as we "all need to get behind Welsh rugby". It was the rivalry that made the cup final day such a special outing. Now this kind of rivalry is frowned upon

Steffan wrote:You're wasting your time LD

Anyone who questions the current system is seen as a deluded by this lot on here

This rather apathetic attitude of "Oh well we have to make do with what we got now" is very negative as well

Domestic Welsh rugby needs change. I don't have all the answers, but the current setup will keep people from the game and domestic Welsh rugby will never reach the heights that it once did and will never be able to compete with the rest of Europe on a domestic level

Sadly the WRU does not seem to care as long as the pink cowboy hat brigade and the corporate boys are willing to fork out £70-100 a ticket to watch the national team

To be fair, it's only as counter-productive as the "anything but the regions" mentality that some hold on here.

Or the view that rugby is a gentleman's game for 'true' fans with no place for the 'pink cowboy hat brigade'. Rugby has grown and moved on, the fans should too.

Steffan wrote:

Domestic Welsh rugby needs change.

If change was brought about that led to the 4 current regions being very successful, and at no detriment to other levels of rugby in Wales, would you still demand a restructure?

i.e. - Is it really the success of the 4 regions that is key to your grumblings, or is it that you want to be represented in the first place?

CurlyOsp wrote:Or the view that rugby is a gentleman's game for 'true' fans with no place for the 'pink cowboy hat brigade'. Rugby has grown and moved on, the fans should too

I have nothing against the pink cowboy hat brigade. But Wales only play at home around 8-10 times year. And these people have no interest in supporting rugby outside the international calender. More needs to be done for the hardcore who have been alienated by the current set up

Chunky Norwich wrote:Is it really the success of the 4 regions that is key to your grumblings, or is it that you want to be represented in the first place?

I want regions that are successful and appeal to the whole of Wales

Ireland manage it. Why is the idea of having real provinces so difficult to conceive in Wales?

For me the whole problem in wales starts and finishes at the number of pro teams we can reasonably run. I believe that the magic number is 4 or 5. The wru seem to agree with this. And this is in keeping with rugby in a number of other nations, even ones bigger than us and thus probably able to sustain more sides with their bigger population.

So with 4 or 5 as a starting point we therefore had/have (in my opinion) 3 options:

1) Cut the original Welsh league in half and let half be pro and half be demoted to semi pro status.
Benefits: we get 4 or 5 teams with existing infrastructure, owners and fan base.
Drawbacks: How do you decide who loses out? It's a union so how do you get the members to vote for this? The Welsh 2nd tier becomes too small and watered down by having to promote from below it to make a big enough league.

2) we create brand new regions with no ties to original member clubs.
Benefits: No history to get in the way. Total Union control. No benefactors and egos.
Drawbacks: who would pay for this? Certainly not the owners of the original clubs? What would happen to the original clubs?
Can you just make the original clubs non-professional entities? I mean legally, could the WRU do this to a group of businesses?
Where would they play? You'd have to build new stadia or risk the current problem with 'faviouritsm' for teams using an existing club's ground. Cue 'disenfranchisation' (new word I made up!).
No fan base so could flop and bankrupt the new entities in a matter of months. The wru would be bankrolling this presumably so that's a big risk to takes on for such an unknown.
What would they be based on? We don't have 4 or 5 areas or regions in Wales. So they'd be made up, as they are now.

3) What we've got now. 4 or 5 teams (as previously) based on existing clubs. The problem is they probably shouldnt have called them regions. That suggests geography and that's not what we've got. Partnerships maybe? Super clubs? Who knows.
Benefits: little or no risk for the wru. Club owners still get a club in pro sport so are not at risk (as much) of going bankrupt from the sudden end to pro rugby revenue streams. The existing clubs in the original Welsh prem all get to play a part (if it goes smoothly). All fans therefore get to play a part (if it all goes smoothly). Technically then no disenfranchisation.
Drawbacks: getting clubs to work together. Getting fans to visit venues other than their own. Marketing these new entities.

So for me, option 3 is the lesser of the 3 evils. I can see why the wru went for it. They couldn't afford to bankroll 4 new entities, build 4 news grounds and risk little support for made up clubs. They probably couldn't foresee partners stepping out (e.g. Ebbw Vale in the Dragons partnership) or financial difficulties (e.g. The Warrriors partnership). That's all the stuff of hindsight. But staying at 8-10 teams would, IMO, be even worse. Remember how rubbish we were in Euro terms at the time. The odd result or bit of success aside. From the advent of professionalism the clubs were really struggling when competing with others. Wales as an international team were bunk. We had the pro clubs filled with non-pro standard players to make up the numbers. And we couldn't afford to pay top wages so risked losing the top guys.

So if 4 or 5 is the magic number how else do we do pro rugby in wales? What options am I missing? I think, like it or not, option 3 was the only compromise that fitted at a time when somthing drastic needed to happen on a relative shoe string. Could they try another option now that they've got more money? Maybe. But we've now got new fans of new regions so we risk losing them. And for what?

One thing to add: lots of people blame Moffett for the mess here but don't forget his original proposal and grand plan was for 5 brand new regions. However the clubs rejected this in favour of the regional model we have now. The turkeys voted for Christmas...

Steffan wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Is it really the success of the 4 regions that is key to your grumblings, or is it that you want to be represented in the first place?

I want regions that are successful and appeal to the whole of Wales

Ireland manage it. Why is the idea of having real provinces so difficult to conceive in Wales?

Because Ireland have 4 real provinces and we don't. We have something like 30 counties.

Also, who would build the 4 new stadia that you would need? That would cost hundreds of millions.

Steffan wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Is it really the success of the 4 regions that is key to your grumblings, or is it that you want to be represented in the first place?

I want regions that are successful and appeal to the whole of Wales

Ireland manage it. Why is the idea of having real provinces so difficult to conceive in Wales?

It can't be done.

Unless you have these as regions, as Ireland do:

Well it depends on which region map you want to use, that one for example is not official representation of regions.

Lets just go simpler

But Mike, you're then just making regions up and people would not feel an affiliation, like we have now. South Wales, for example, would be Dragons and Blues, maybe Ponty areas combined looking at that map. Where to play? Someone is going to miss out. Ponty may even end up in West Wales! Absurd. Mid Wales is all mountains so unless they put a stadium at the top of Pen Y Fan I can't see a region being there! West Wales - again where to play? Swansea or Llanelli's current grounds? Or at Ponty? Again the infighting and someone will miss out

I think the last few posts illustrate what a ridiculous concept it is.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I think the last few posts illustrate what a ridiculous concept it is.

Yes ok fine you win. Lets just keep the current system. How dare us Valley ruffians even suggest such disgusting things

I have seen the error of my ways and will embrace my wonderful region from now on. Sorry Ponty...its been a good 30+ years but it's time for me to move on from supporting you

"Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff" and all that

Steffan wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I think the last few posts illustrate what a ridiculous concept it is.

Yes ok fine you win. Lets just keep the current system. How dare us Valley ruffians even suggest such disgusting things

I have seen the error of my ways and will embrace my wonderful region from now on. Sorry Ponty...its been a good 30+ years but it's time for me to move on from supporting you

"Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff" and all that

This is the problem. How do you work with people like this?

Is there any flat ground there at all in the mid bit of Wales?  

Surely there are diggers, excavators, graders that could flatten a piece the size of a rugby field?  No?

Are there football fields in the wild mountainous mid Wales?  

Are there schools with pitches of one sort or another?

Surely this oft presented idea that there are no humans, or flat spaces, or towns, or villages in the middle of Wales is a touch overdone?  Doesn't Mid Wales even have a coastal bit where the slopes would become less Alpine and where a spare square of ground could be found?

SecretFly wrote:Is there any flat ground there at all in the mid bit of Wales?  

Surely there are diggers, excavators, graders that could flatten a piece the size of a rugby field?  No?

Are there football fields in the wild mountainous mid Wales?  

Are there schools with pitches of one sort or another?

Surely this oft presented idea that there are no humans, or flat spaces, or towns, or villages in the middle of Wales is a touch overdone?  Doesn't Mid Wales even have a coastal bit where the slopes would become less Alpine and where a spare square of ground could be found?

I was exaggerating a bit to prove a point really Fly. There's plenty of small towns in mid wales. The mountains (Brecon Beacons) are towards the south and Snowdonia is North Wales. It's just that there are no big towns really. It's rather narrow in Mid Wales.  And a bugger to drive to. Aberystwyth could be a populous enough area for this, but they're on the West coast so technically west wales (Scarlets region now I think).

My questions would be: Who would build the stadium? There isn't one suitable as far as I know. Who would finance the team? Would it get enough support when the teams based in the cities struggle currently?

Steffan wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I think the last few posts illustrate what a ridiculous concept it is.

Yes ok fine you win. Lets just keep the current system. How dare us Valley ruffians even suggest such disgusting things

I have seen the error of my ways and will embrace my wonderful region from now on. Sorry Ponty...its been a good 30+ years but it's time for me to move on from supporting you

"Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff...Kaaaairdiff" and all that

Woe is me.

Someone else will be disenfranchised if there was to be a Valley region. It's just rearranging the deckchairs.

This perhpas better shows the challenge of rugby and location in wales:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Someone else will be disenfranchised if there was to be a Valley region. It's just rearranging the deckchairs

I agree but as long as Cardiff are kept in the top flight you couldn't care less anyway really could you if we are honest

Griff wrote:But Mike, you're then just making regions up and people would not feel an affiliation, like we have now. South Wales, for example, would be Dragons and Blues, maybe Ponty areas combined looking at that map. Where to play? Someone is going to miss out. Ponty may even end up in West Wales! Absurd. Mid Wales is all mountains so unless they put a stadium at the top of Pen Y Fan I can't see a region being there! West Wales - again where to play? Swansea or Llanelli's current grounds? Or at Ponty? Again the infighting and someone will miss out

Ponty fans will never be happy unless their region has Ponty in the name and they play at Sardis Road

IronMike wrote:Ponty fans will never be happy unless their region has Ponty in the name and they play at Sardis Road

True for many of them. Not me though. Then again Cardiff Blues fans would go nuts if the 'Cardiff' bit got dropped. And lets not forget how people would not travel a whopping mile (if that) down the road to the Cardiff City Stadium out of protest

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/richard-holland-qa-cardiff-blues-9083590

Richard Holland Q&A: Cardiff Blues boss opens up on new coach and why region will never drop Cardiff from their name

"Q: Some people might argue you could take Cardiff out of the name.

A: I am not changing the name. We are Cardiff Blues and that’s the way we are staying. My grandfather played for Cardiff and I am hugely proud of that. There is a huge amount of heritage here.

Q: What would you say to those other fans who would just like to see you called Cardiff?

A: We’ve got Cardiff in the name."

Even most of the Cardiff die-hard's seem to think they'd be better off without Holland and Pieman. It seems they would be reading that...and by looking at the state the team is in. Not to mention the imminent recruitment of self-praise king Sean Holley (his web-side made me chuckle alright).

Griff wrote:This perhpas better shows the challenge of rugby and location in wales:

That also shows that the Scarlets are punching well above their weight attendance-wise!

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

http://i2.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article1994519.ece/binary/stats1-437036.jpg

Look at those average attendances, hardly 'sell out' crowds. If the Sardis Road games all sold out the average would be more like the european attendance surely?

Steffan wrote:

gcBlues wrote:If anyone fancies a laugh, check out @owenins on twitter. Played for Pontypridd a few years back and is the most deluded person i have ever seen when it comes to opinions on rugby

More than a 'few years back'. Mid 90s. Owen Robbins what good player he was. Always held his own against Nigel Walker and Ieuan Evans etc.

I haven't checked out his opinion yet but its clear that you don't like Ponty or Valleys rugby in general so I guess anything he says that is pro-Valleys you are going to disagree with and try to moc

It's not that i 'don't like ponty', i don't like the attitude from a section of their supporters that they should be a pro team or that they could do better than the blues/dragons can but conveniently ignore that they have a strong squad because of the freebees from Cardiff. The chemistry teacher is happy to take the freebees from Cardiff to support Ponty success but is also happy to sit idly by whilst people are asked to write articles in their match day programmes which slate the blues or say there needs to be a change in welsh rugby. can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Pontyprid are north west of Cardiff and although in the Cardiff region neither side is in the least bit happy

Ponty are happy to have free players.

Steffan wrote:The Ponty section are not happy. While Cardiff rugby fans dislike Ponty just as much they enjoy us being a part of their setup and on more than one occasion I have had the Cardiff rugby crew gloat that "we own you now bla bla"

Moffett was naive enough to think that Ponty fans would switch allegiance and start flocking to the Arms Park to chant "Kaaaairdiff" every week. Then when he was trying to out Rodger Lewis he started giving the whole "Ponty should be a region" to try and win support. That man is an idiot

Moffett was naive when he allocated a failed regional partner to a company which paid £1 million to represent themselves and no one else.

gcBlues wrote:Look at those average attendances, hardly 'sell out' crowds. If the Sardis Road games all sold out the average would be more like the european attendance surely?

They were just as high as any other region were getting at the time.

Steffan wrote:

gcBlues wrote:If anyone fancies a laugh, check out @owenins on twitter. Played for Pontypridd a few years back and is the most deluded person i have ever seen when it comes to opinions on rugby

More than a 'few years back'. Mid 90s. Owen Robbins what good player he was. Always held his own against Nigel Walker and Ieuan Evans etc.

I haven't checked out his opinion yet but its clear that you don't like Ponty or Valleys rugby in general so I guess anything he says that is pro-Valleys you are going to disagree with and try to moc

I follow Owen on Twitter and have had many a conflab with him. I respect his views, and sympathise with many valley fans who do feel disenfranchised. However the problem with Owen is he pushes that agenda into every facet/news story about the rugby. The dragons get smashed by edinburgh - ponty could do better etc etc

Griff wrote:For me the whole problem in wales starts and finishes at the number of pro teams we can reasonably run. I believe that the magic number is 4 or 5. The wru seem to agree with this. And this is in keeping with rugby in a number of other nations, even ones bigger than us and thus probably able to sustain more sides with their bigger population.

So with 4 or 5 as a starting point we therefore had/have (in my opinion) 3 options:

1) Cut the original Welsh league in half and let half be pro and half be demoted to semi pro status.
Benefits: we get 4 or 5 teams with existing infrastructure, owners and fan base.
Drawbacks: How do you decide who loses out? It's a union so how do you get the members to vote for this? The Welsh 2nd tier becomes too small and watered down by having to promote from below it to make a big enough league.

2) we create brand new regions with no ties to original member clubs.
Benefits: No history to get in the way. Total Union control. No benefactors and egos.
Drawbacks: who would pay for this? Certainly not the owners of the original clubs? What would happen to the original clubs?
Can you just make the original clubs non-professional entities? I mean legally, could the WRU do this to a group of businesses?
Where would they play? You'd have to build new stadia or risk the current problem with 'faviouritsm' for teams using an existing club's ground. Cue 'disenfranchisation' (new word I made up!).
No fan base so could flop and bankrupt the new entities in a matter of months. The wru would be bankrolling this presumably so that's a big risk to takes on for such an unknown.
What would they be based on? We don't have 4 or 5 areas or regions in Wales. So they'd be made up, as they are now.

3) What we've got now. 4 or 5 teams (as previously) based on existing clubs. The problem is they probably shouldnt have called them regions. That suggests geography and that's not what we've got. Partnerships maybe? Super clubs? Who knows.
Benefits: little or no risk for the wru. Club owners still get a club in pro sport so are not at risk (as much) of going bankrupt from the sudden end to pro rugby revenue streams. The existing clubs in the original Welsh prem all get to play a part (if it goes smoothly). All fans therefore get to play a part (if it all goes smoothly). Technically then no disenfranchisation.
Drawbacks: getting clubs to work together. Getting fans to visit  venues other than their own. Marketing these new entities.

So for me, option 3 is the lesser of the 3 evils. I can see why the wru went for it. They couldn't afford to bankroll 4 new entities, build 4 news grounds and risk little support for made up clubs. They probably couldn't foresee partners stepping out (e.g. Ebbw Vale in the Dragons partnership) or financial difficulties (e.g. The Warrriors partnership). That's all the stuff of hindsight. But staying at 8-10 teams would, IMO, be even worse. Remember how rubbish we were in Euro terms at the time. The odd result or bit of success aside. From the advent of professionalism the clubs were really struggling when competing with others. Wales as an international team were bunk. We had the pro clubs filled with non-pro standard players to make up the numbers. And we couldn't afford to pay top wages so risked losing the top guys.

So if 4 or 5 is the magic number how else do we do pro rugby in wales? What options am I missing? I think, like it or not, option 3 was the only compromise that fitted at a time when somthing drastic needed to happen on a relative shoe string. Could they try another option now that they've got more money? Maybe. But we've now got new fans of new regions so we risk losing them. And for what?

One thing to add: lots of people blame Moffett for the mess here but don't forget his original proposal and grand plan was for 5 brand new regions. However the clubs rejected this in favour of the regional model we have now. The turkeys voted for Christmas...

was going to write my own post but this pretty much sums up my thought.

The only thing I would add is that surely it is in each region/SC interest to expand their fanbase. To do that they have to reach out to those 'disenfranchised' fans and I actucally think they can do this without losing their existing fans. Well especially at the dragons, I honestly don't think we would lose any fans if we rebranded to just the Dragons and played 2-3 fixtures at EXP each year

gcBlues wrote:Moffett was naive when he allocated a failed regional partner to a company which paid £1 million to represent themselves and no one else.

I agree, neither wanted each other, Cardiff payed to be stand alone, the only one's who did incidentally, the region that should have gone was Scarlets. They have a small population, and they should have been part of the Swansea based region.

Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

[/quote]I agree, neither wanted each other, Cardiff payed to be stand alone, the only one's who did incidentally, the region that should have gone was Scarlets. They have a small population, and they should have been part of the Swansea based region. [/quote]

I think the reason for keeping the Scarlets was that they were/are such a strong brand in Welsh rugby rather than for strictly rugby playing/catchment reasons.

Steffan wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Someone else will be disenfranchised if there was to be a Valley region. It's just rearranging the deckchairs

I agree but as long as Cardiff are kept in the top flight you couldn't care less anyway really could you if we are honest

??? I am not a Cardiff / Blues supporter.

All I said was that it would be a sad day if they were turned into an "East Wales" plastic region.

I think the reason for keeping the Scarlets was that they were/are such a strong brand in Welsh rugby rather than for strictly rugby playing/catchment reasons.

There'll always be top flight rugby in Llanelli.

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

Your numbers do not add up.

I'm sorry but an outsider's eyes can listen to all the arguments about which club should have been a region and which region should never have been one at all, but still see the map and look at FOUR.... REGIONAL.... Bases all existing on the southern coastal area of Wales, and all within 70 miles of each other as a crow might fly when he ain't drunk.

The actual problem from the start as I see it is simply that some person or persons felt the need to use the word 'Region' at all.

The word 'Region' should never have entered the debate if those four entites was the result.  If Welsh rugby at many levels felt consolidation was necessary to keep competitive in an ever changing world then mergers of Clubs or simply the creation of new 'bigger' club identities should have been the solution.  There is no way four Regions of Wales exist at the bottom of Wales within 70 miles of each other. And there is the complication because it's artificial to then ask fans down there to divide their loyalties into regions.  Everything is too close and claustrophobic for true regionalism to develop. You trip over a 'Regional' rival as you buy your groceries every week.

Four Super Clubs should have been, and should be, the way now if the bases were all going to be within a stone's throw of each other.  Never ask for Regional loyalty at all.  Just ask is this the new Super Club you want to support or not?  Then anyone in Wales from anywhere in Wales can simply support the non-location defined Club of their choice based on the Animal or Bird or Fish or Indian Tribe they fancy.

SecretFly wrote: There is no way four Regions of Wales exist at the bottom of Wales within 70 miles of each other.  

They do though.

As we've seen, people from Ebbw are going to the Dragons
People from Dowlais are going to watch the Blues
People from Bridgend go to watch the Ospreys
And people from all over Carmarthenshire, Ceerdigion and Pembs go to watch the Scarlets.

Clubs, superclubs, regions. It really doesn't matter what collective they are. It's far more deeper than that.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

Your numbers do not add up.

That's LD for you.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote: There is no way four Regions of Wales exist at the bottom of Wales within 70 miles of each other.  

They do though.

As we've seen, people from Ebbw are going to the Dragons
People from Dowlais are going to watch the Blues
People from Bridgend go to watch the Ospreys
And people from all over Carmarthenshire, Ceerdigion and Pembs go to watch the Scarlets.

Clubs, superclubs, regions. It really doesn't matter what collective they are. It's far more deeper than that.

But others are saying different.  If the loyalties were so defined and natural, would the pages of argument that is Welsh Regional v Club rugby have a continuing part to play on this site?

If everyone was content within their comfortable borders of natural loyalty, would the topic exist?  Obviously some people feel their loyalties are more complex than picking a side that is closest to them and naturally supporting it.  They're repulsed by the idea of Region because it assumes loyalty where they have none for perhaps their Natural 'Region'.

So the word is important - that word 'Region' is important.  And its very use seems to be a big sticking point.  To some it obviously means 'belonging'.  To others, it seems to mean a certain level of 'slavery'.

I'm an outsider and I admit the complexities go over my head. But that's what an outsider sees. 4 Regions existing within what should be 1 Region and many rugby supporters within those created regions being not at all happy that their 'loyalty' to a specific region should be deemed natural and expected.

SecretFly wrote:

But others are saying different.  If the loyalties were so defined and natural, would the pages of argument that is Welsh Regional v Club rugby have a continuing part to play on this site?

If everyone was content within their comfortable borders of natural loyalty, would the topic exist?  Obviously some people feel their loyalties are more complex than picking a side that is closest to them and naturally supporting it.  They're repulsed by the idea of Region because it assumes loyalty where they have none for perhaps their Natural 'Region'.

So the word is important - that word 'Region' is important.  And its very use seems to be a big sticking point.  To some it obviously means 'belonging'.  To others, it seems to mean a certain level of 'slavery'.

I'm an outsider and I admit the complexities go over my head.  But that's what an outsider sees.  4 Regions existing within what should be 1 Region and many rugby supporters within those created regions being not at all happy that their 'loyalty' to a specific region should be deemed natural and expected.

Call them superclubs. The result would be no different.

As we've said, we have no "natural regions / provinces that were always rugby clubs" like in Ireland. So turning the tables, a restructure would be like the 4 Irish provinces resorting to Dublin, Belfast, Galway and Limerick. Or in England , merging Leicester and Northampton.

Professional rugby has seen the need for less pro sides in Wales because there aren't enough playing numbers.

Of the crowd of approximately 15 people I go to watch my region with, only 2 are actually from the town where the stadium is based. And they now live in East Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

I can see your point, but the attendance figures from the first season didn't show that. Also the Scarlets are the only region that are an actual geographical region. The Scarlets are Dyfyd. Although I can totally understand that the best way to ensure that Wales didn't lose people from rugby would be to ensure that it is only in the south/south east that it is played professionally, that makes perfect sense

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

Your numbers do not add up.

What numbers do not add up ? I posted earlier in this thread the population of the biggest towns in the valleys and they added up to the same population as Swansea, Llanelli only has 44000 people living there, after Camarthen  there is not a lot in the way of population, Tenby, Saundersfoot,Pembroke Dock, then even further up the side of Wales Milford Haven,St Davids, Narberth, theses are all small towns/villages, I would say the valleys has three times the population of all of West Wales from Llanelli onwards. But that is what makes it such a beautiful part of the world for my liking.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

I can see your point, but the attendance figures from the first season didn't show that.  Also the Scarlets are the only region that are an actual geographical region.  The Scarlets are Dyfyd.  Although I can totally understand that the best way to ensure that Wales didn't lose people from rugby would be to ensure that it is only in the south/south east that it is played professionally, that makes perfect sense

No what makes perfect sense is, West Wales, East Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, North Wales. Would you not agree ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

Your numbers do not add up.

What numbers do not add up ? I posted earlier in this thread the population of the biggest towns in the valleys and they added up to the same population as Swansea, Llanelli only has 44000 people living there, after Camarthen  there is not a lot in the way of population, Tenby, Saundersfoot,Pembroke Dock, then even further up the side of Wales Milford Haven,St Davids, Narberth, theses are all small towns/villages, I would say the valleys has three times the population of all of West Wales from Llanelli onwards. But that is what makes it such a beautiful part of the world for my liking.

The population of the traditional Scarlets region (Ceredigion, Carms and Pembs) is approx 380,000

LordDowlais wrote:

No what makes perfect sense is, West Wales, East Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, North Wales. Would you not agree ?

That makes no sense at all, because you've alienated the 20k season ticket holders overnight and destroyed at least 3 traditional brands of Welsh domestic rugby.

That might be what a few people in the valleys want. But it would be the end of domestic welsh rugby.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No what makes perfect sense is, West Wales, East Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, North Wales. Would you not agree ?

That makes no sense at all, because you've alienated the 20k season ticket holders overnight and destroyed at least 3 traditional brands of Welsh domestic rugby.

That might be what a few people in the valleys want. But it would be the end of domestic welsh rugby.

Yes I agree we would lose about 20,000 season ticket holders, NOW. But if it was done right from the start then a West/East/Mid/North regions would have been better.

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes I agree we would lose about 20,000 season ticket holders, NOW. But if it was done right from the start then a West/East/Mid/North regions would have been better.

Disagree. It would be dead now. Those 20,000 would have walked away then too. Including myself.

What would happen if there was a mid wales/valleys team playing out of Merthyr? Doubt the 'alienated masses' with a Pontypridd post code would support that either.

They want a Ponty Pro team, called ponty and playing in ponty. lets not cover it up and say it's a valleys issue when its just them. The blues do a lot of work in the valleys, held a kids camp recently in brecon too i believe which was well attended.

The valleys are not disenfranchised, its the sense of entitlement from the 100,000,000,000 fans who pack in to Sardis Road every home game.