Italian teams and the Pro 12

"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Chunky Norwich wrote:"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Interesting. Who do the other teams pay £80k a season to, Chunk? The Italian teams? Or is that their travel costs? And is 80k sterling or euro?

So if the Italians pay £1,087,064.18, they then get back £800k next season?

I'm probably wrong, but if the above is correct why not just ask the Italians for around £300k now, with the other teams paying nothing to the Italians next season?

Would be a crying shame if these sides had to leave - they make the league more colourful.

Has the Italian RU just pocketed the money or did they get the modelling wrong the first time and they've just realised now that there isn't any?

Is there even a 'back of a fag packet' idea for which sides will replace them?

Pot Hale wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Interesting.  Who do the other teams pay £80k a season to, Chunk?   The Italian teams?   Or is that their travel costs?   And is 80k sterling or euro?

Travel costs. £80,000 for 2 games.

I presume another Peter Jackson number?

Is this 'fact' or a story from another Mr Secret Source?
If it is a fact, which Pro12 official is mentioned as giving the detail?

Or, in the spirit of conspiracy theorists, is this linked to the "LS/LW to the Pro 12" story?
GC is right in that they do make the league more colourful but is that sufficient reason for them to be there? I can't be hacked checking but I would be surprised if they didn't occupy the bottom two spots at the end of the season more often than they did.
The two exiles clubs would open up a larger spectating and possibly TV audience and reduce travel costs substantially but what would the ultimate price for Italian rugby be?

I said on the other thread that I honestly believe the Pro 12 is not the model for Italian rugby. They would do much better developing their own semi pro league and shipping their better players off to the other pro leagues in the short term. Playing in a league where they get humped week in week out and come bottom is doing them no favours and Italian rugby generally has gone backwards since they have joined.

I am sure I read a while ago that the Italians were planning on an "internal" semi-pro league. Think of the travel costs that they would save and, as BigGee says, the players can play without getting humped week in, week out where their self-confidence is bound to take a pasting.
I don't know if they would lose their entry to the European competitions. If their clubs turn semi-pro that is even more of a sure-fire situation where a 2nd place team from that pool would qualify.

Let's make it an even three sides dropped from Pro12 and the full 'exile' bunch then being asked to join - and paying more than Italian rates for the privilege.

So Cardiff Blues kicked out with the two Italians, and LI joining with LW and LS.  At least that would be one AP standard team asked to join, considering the objective is allegedly to improve competitiveness and quality of Pro12?

Pot Hale wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Interesting.  Who do the other teams pay £80k a season to, Chunk?   The Italian teams?   Or is that their travel costs?   And is 80k sterling or euro?

Would give the impression that it's travel costs. Believable when hotels, training facilities, chartered flights, buses etc. all taken into account.

Hard to believe that the gate, bar takings, food and merchandise sales etc. for the additional two home games does not recoup that amount. You'd need just 2667 fans paying £15 a ticket each for your two home games to recoup it.

Could people not creatively link expensive air travel to Sponsorship?  
An official carrier of Pro12 sides as they move from Nation to Nation?

Creativity......

SecretFly wrote:Could people not creatively link expensive air travel to Sponsorship?  
An official carrier of Pro12 sides as they move from Nation to Nation?

Creativity......

Funnily enough this has been touted as the major benefit of Ulsters sponsorship deal with Aer Lingus.

http://www.aerlingus.com/travelinformation/weboffersfrombritain/ulsterrugbyclub/

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Interesting.  Who do the other teams pay £80k a season to, Chunk?   The Italian teams?   Or is that their travel costs?   And is 80k sterling or euro?

Would give the impression that it's travel costs. Believable when hotels, training facilities, chartered flights, buses etc. all taken into account.

Hard to believe that the gate, bar takings, food and merchandise sales etc. for the additional two home games does not recoup that amount. You'd need just 2667 fans paying £15 a ticket each for your two home games to recoup it.

£40,000 per trip to Italy seems a bit strong, albeit I don't imagine it would be cheap. The travelling costs for the Italians must be killing them!

SecretFly wrote:

Is this 'fact' or a story from another Mr Secret Source?  

Probably the same one that has given all the other details that have come true.

Well Yeah,  that's what I'm talking about when I say more organised Pro12 units than the Italians should offer practical advice and assistance to them in trying to get them to maximise their opportunities and helping them come up with ideas about easing the burden.

But on that Official Carrier thing - I think all sides might benefit (especially the cash strapped Italians) if the League itself in its entirety invited an airline to become League carrier.

BigGee wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Interesting.  Who do the other teams pay £80k a season to, Chunk?   The Italian teams?   Or is that their travel costs?   And is 80k sterling or euro?

Would give the impression that it's travel costs. Believable when hotels, training facilities, chartered flights, buses etc. all taken into account.

Hard to believe that the gate, bar takings, food and merchandise sales etc. for the additional two home games does not recoup that amount. You'd need just 2667 fans paying £15 a ticket each for your two home games to recoup it.

£40,000 per trip to Italy seems a bit strong, albeit I don't imagine it would be cheap. The travelling costs for the Italians must be killing them!

They gambled on growing their fan bases quickly after joining, but they have been poorly run- I wonder how history will judge the decision to axe a Rome-based franchise in order to include Treviso. It is a football-mad city, but rugby's heartlands in Italy are not very well populated.

SecretFly wrote:Well Yeah,  that's what I'm talking about when I say more organised Pro12 units than the Italians should offer practical advice and assistance to them in trying to get them to maximise their opportunities and helping them come up with ideas about easing the burden.

But on that Official Carrier thing - I think all sides might benefit (especially the cash strapped Italians) if the League itself in its entirety invited an airline to become League carrier.

I agree, it would be a progressive step.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Is this 'fact' or a story from another Mr Secret Source?  

Probably the same one that has given all the other details that have come true.

What has come true?  This source was mentioned last week as saying something might happen with the Italians and some English sides? ...now this week this same un-named source says something is going to happen if the Italians don't pull up their socks....? So the same story really but only the words 'might' being replaced with 'will'?

The same unconfirmed source - nothing official (unless named) and nobody else seeming to be talking about it in any other media outlets?

It might be true - but.... well we need evidence and names of course, as those seem to be the conditions attached to other similar Pro12 threads.

My view is that the Italians would be better going it alone, or trying to get a couple of sides into Pro D2 the latter is probably a better bet.


The flip side of this is that there is a chance for another couple of sides in the Pro 12. I like the idea of LS and LW, but acknowledge that the politics might make it impossible. I'd really like to be in London and have a chance to watch a game in the Pro 12 involving either of those teams.

According to SportsJoe the Pro12 have denied talking to English clubs about joining the league.



SPORTSJOE

And another link that doesn't work.

Find it yourselves

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Is this 'fact' or a story from another Mr Secret Source?  

Probably the same one that has given all the other details that have come true.

What has come true?  This source was mentioned last week as saying something might happen with the Italians and some English sides? ...now this week this same un-named source says something is going to happen if the Italians don't pull up their socks....?  So the same story really but only the words 'might' being replaced with 'will'?

The same unconfirmed source - nothing official (unless named) and nobody else seeming to be talking about it in any other media outlets?

It might be true - but.... well we need evidence and names of course, as those seem to be the conditions attached to other similar Pro12 threads.

Have a look at Peter Jackson's record in the last 2 years. It would be easier to ask "what hasn't come true".

Did Peter think there was going to be an Anglo Welsh League when the Regions 'threatened' it?

From another media source:

Don't book the flights to London just yet.
The Pro 12 have denied they have had discussions, formal or otherwise, with London Welsh and London Scottish, about leaving English rugby.

The Evening Standard earlier reported that the two Premiership clubs had held "informal" talks about joining the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Italian sides in the league, but it has since been refuted by a Pro 12 source.

The report said that both sides, who are members of the Rugby Football Union, and the Welsh and Scottish unions respectively would only make the move if they get permission from the respective rugby bodies.

On the pitch, London Welsh have had a truly awful season, losing all of their 20 games so far in the Premiership, and picking up just one losing bonus point along the way, conceding an average of more than six tries a game.

London Scottish are in the semi-finals of the Championship playoff to make it into the top tier in England, but their ground is not up to Premiership standards, meaning they can not secure a place in next season's Premiership.

It's unclear what impact, if any, an additional two teams in the Pro 12 would have on European qualification.

And another one:

PRO12 ORGANISERS SAY discussions have not been held with London Scottish and London Welsh over the possibility of the English clubs joining the Guinness Pro12.

The Rugby Paper last weekend reported that informal talks have already taken place with both clubs, with a source quoted as saying:
“Discussions behind the scenes are still at a very informal stage. There are some big obstacles to be overcome but it is worth finding a way round them because of the commercial advantages to all parties.”
However, The42 understands that no discussions with London Scottish and London Scottish, neither formal or informal, have been carried out yet.

London Scottish are currently competing in the Championship promotion play-offs, while London Welsh have been relegated from the Premiership after a torrid season in which they have failed to win a single game.
It is believed that the idea for the London-based clubs joining the Pro12 has come largely from Welsh quarters, particularly after the success of the recent Judgement Day III at the Millennium Stadium, when 52,762 fans turned out to watch the four Welsh regions play.
Adding a fifth ‘Welsh’ team in the guise of London Welsh would potentially increase revenue for the regions, as well as opening up a new market in the English capital.
Furthermore, the fact that the Italian clubs in the Pro12, Treviso and Zebre, are increasingly in financial difficulties with the league and are struggling to continue to pay the fees that allow them to compete in the Pro12, means there is a possibility that they will leave the competition in the future.

Should that happen, the prospect of London Welsh and London Scottish joining the Pro12 would become more realistic. Indeed, were the Italian clubs to leave the Pro12, The42 believes that competition organisers would be open to the idea of London-based clubs joining.
The main issue would be that the clubs fall under the rule of the RFU in England at present, meaning a messy process of transferring governing body or continuing as RFU clubs in a league that has no attachment to the English governing body.
The prospect of opening up a new London market is one that would strongly appeal to the majority of current Pro12 clubs, particularly those who see little value in what the Italian sides are bringing to the league at present.

Think Fly was right. Welsh-inspired kites being flown again in the direction of England. They'll never give up........

Pot Hale wrote: They'll never give up........

You're Frak dead right about that one.

SecretFly wrote:Did Peter think there was going to be an Anglo Welsh League when the Regions 'threatened' it?

No, he revealed that there had been talks.

Which there was.

Pot Hale wrote: a source quoted as saying:

Now it's gospel.

Leinster captain Jamie Heaslip was somewhat more open to the idea of the Pro12 growing either in size or by bringing new clubs into the fold.
When asked if the players would be excited to see London clubs brought into the Pro12, the Ireland number eight pointed out that any expansion would impact on players physically.
“Yes and no,” answered Heaslip. “In terms of expanding the league, there’s already quite a few games being fitted in and obviously a few more games means just more batterings that you have to take as a player.
“I suppose that’s where the team with the strongest squad can come through. In terms of expanding the game, I think it’s a good idea to potentially have more teams involved from other countries and expand the rugby brand. Whichever hat you have on, either rugby in general or the Pro12 hat, I think it’d be a smart move.”

Italian outfits Zebre and Treviso, the bottom two clubs in the Pro12 by some distance this season, are believed to owe the competition a sum in excess of €1million relating to the fees that allow them to compete in the Pro12.
That has magnified unhappiness with the Italian involvement in some quarters, with at least one Welsh region believing the involvement of London Welsh and London Scottish would make more commercial sense for the Pro12.
Whether there is to be any change to the teams involved in the Pro12 over the coming years, Leinster’s head coach O’Connor is clear in stating that 12 clubs is the ideal number for the competition.
“The perfect number is 12 in my opinion,” said O’Connor at an event. “I think that gives you good integrity in the league. That gives you the ability, without overloading the schedule, to play everybody home and away.
That’s important and I think you need that. Regardless of the make up of that, I think 12 is probably the perfect number for us. Whether that’s a London Scottish and a London Welsh or the Italians or whoever it is, that’s the perfect number that we need to stick to.”

We could do with them in the league, the Blues need someone to beat next season.

Pot Hale wrote: Leinster’s head coach O’Connor is clear in stating that 12 clubs is the ideal number for the competition.
“The perfect number is 12 in my opinion,” said O’Connor at an event. “I think that gives you good integrity in the league. That gives you the ability, without overloading the schedule, to play everybody home and away.
That’s important and I think you need that. Regardless of the make up of that, I think 12 is probably the perfect number for us. Whether that’s a London Scottish and a London Welsh or the Italians or whoever it is, that’s the perfect number that we need to stick to.”

Very interesting.

Pot Hale wrote:Italian outfits Zebre and Treviso, the bottom two clubs in the Pro12 by some distance this season, are believed to owe the competition a sum in excess of €1million relating to the fees that allow them to compete in the Pro12.
That has magnified unhappiness with the Italian involvement in some quarters, with at least one Welsh region believing the involvement of London Welsh and London Scottish would make more commercial sense for the Pro12.
Whether there is to be any change to the teams involved in the Pro12 over the coming years, Leinster’s head coach O’Connor is clear in stating that 12 clubs is the ideal number for the competition.
“The perfect number is 12 in my opinion,” said O’Connor at an event. “I think that gives you good integrity in the league. That gives you the ability, without overloading the schedule, to play everybody home and away.
That’s important and I think you need that. Regardless of the make up of that, I think 12 is probably the perfect number for us. Whether that’s a London Scottish and a London Welsh or the Italians or whoever it is, that’s the perfect number that we need to stick to.”

Agree with that, 12 is the magic number. !0 is to small and 14 is to big. If the Italians fall by the wayside, then why should anyone object to the 2 exiles side coming in. They have a lot to offer!

Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

+1! Jen.

..but then I'm officially biased.

What on earth has population got to do with it? Shall we invite Russia in too, there's quite a few people there.

Chunky Norwich wrote:What on earth has population got to do with it?

I couldn't possibly imagine.

Chunky Norwich wrote:What on earth has population got to do with it? Shall we invite Russia in too, there's quite a few people there.

Well somebody wanted to invite them into something somewhere as my mind recollects...... but of course that fell through when the potential inviters got their way without including them....

This is nonsensical. Some of the bluster on this forum has gone from incorrect to whimsical to distressing.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

Its not about Italian hating. Most of us were happy for them to join the league, Treviso had pedigree and it looked a good moved for all parties. My wife is Italian, so I have no hang ups about their legitimacy.

However it is hard not to argue that it has not worked out, even giving it a little bit of time to bed in, they have been worse this year than ever. Their top players are abandoning ship as and when they are able, which tells you a lot.

My concern is for the health of the pro 12, but also with my Italian hat on (clearly my second team after Scotland), what is best for them. I don't want to see Italian rugby bankrupting itself on an unsustainable odyssey. Countries need to look at what model works for them and I would have to say that the current model does not seem to have worked for the Italians. It is hard to see it turning around either. At some point someone needs to make a sensible decision about things!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

I'm not in the same boat as others in Wales who constantly look to England, however the population of England is similar to Italy, and there's a lot more interest in rugby, in England, so 'chimney pots' would not drastically differ. And travel would be cheaper.

Yes, it's all rubbish. +1

Griff wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

I'm not in the same boat as others in Wales who constantly look to England, however the population of England is similar to Italy, and there's a lot more interest in rugby, in England, so 'chimney pots' would not  drastically differ. And travel would be cheaper.

Could you put up with the megaphone diplomacy of the PRL though? The threat of "terrible and immediate war" every time they don't get their way?

A lot of the teams in the current PRL alliance have a pain in their hole with it at the moment with all the salary cap nonsense etc.

Current Pro 12 nations would have as much influence on proceedings as a fart in a gale.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Griff wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

I'm not in the same boat as others in Wales who constantly look to England, however the population of England is similar to Italy, and there's a lot more interest in rugby, in England, so 'chimney pots' would not  drastically differ. And travel would be cheaper.

Could you put up with the megaphone diplomacy of the PRL though? The threat of "terrible and immediate war" every time they don't get their way?

A lot of the teams in the current PRL alliance have a pain in their hole with it at the moment with all the salary cap nonsense etc.

Current Pro 12 nations would have as much influence on proceedings as a fart in a gale.

My (admittedly very limited) understanding and expectation is that any English teams entering the Pro12 would then become affiliated with the WRU/SRU instead. Hence why it is London Welsh and Scottish being mooted as opposed to someone like Bristol or Cornwall. They would have nothing to do with the English league structure as all of their games would be in the Pro12. So therefore there wouldn't be any PRL meddling.

At the moment any team in the English league structure has an obligation and duty to develop players for England, even if their names suggest they have a Welsh/Scottish/Irish 'core'. However, surely if London Welsh entered then the WRU would want some sort of development pathway for Welsh players. Otherwise, what's the point in these two teams in particular?

I'm probably jumping to conclusions massively, but that would be my expectation - they'd leave the RFU/PRL and join us.

Where is Connacht this year?  Fighting for 6th or 7th after a pretty good year of some exciting and effective rugby. Before this decade started they were regularly drop bottom.
The first year Treviso was involved, Glasgow finished beneath them.
The second year Treviso was involved, Edinburgh finished beneath them.
The third year Treviso was involved, they finished 7th - Connacht, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dragons behind them
Last year they came second last.
This year they're running at second last.

5 years - up - down (like all other sides) but certainly never worst.  

So this business about things not working out for the Italians, bless 'em, is just a little patronising.  The 'Celtic League has been running in some format now for 14 years.  And in that time 'things didn't work out' for a lot of sides but none of the Nations were dropped.  Adaptions were made, they were allowed evolve and find solutions, and things proceeded.

Let's see where Italian teams can go from here after yet another re-setting of rules and regulations in a League they just arrived into in 2011.  Or do some people fear they might just make too much of a splash over the next few years and upset a few present top or middle rankers?

If Pro12/RFU allowed both England based teams to join the league, how would they qualify for Europe? If both are under RFU I suppose it would be whichever of the two finishes above the other, but then that would mean WRU/PRW/SRU would have no control over them.

Griff wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Griff wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get the Italian hate here. Their population is 4 times the COMBINED TOTAL of the rest of the league.

Surely someone will crack the code to increased popularity of Club Rugby in Italy.

Surprised that the "Money above all else" types on here are not blowing their muck at the thoughts of all those chimney pots.

I'm not in the same boat as others in Wales who constantly look to England, however the population of England is similar to Italy, and there's a lot more interest in rugby, in England, so 'chimney pots' would not  drastically differ. And travel would be cheaper.

Could you put up with the megaphone diplomacy of the PRL though? The threat of "terrible and immediate war" every time they don't get their way?

A lot of the teams in the current PRL alliance have a pain in their hole with it at the moment with all the salary cap nonsense etc.

Current Pro 12 nations would have as much influence on proceedings as a fart in a gale.

My (admittedly very limited) understanding and expectation is that any English teams entering the Pro12 would then become affiliated with the WRU/SRU instead. Hence why it is London Welsh and Scottish being mooted as opposed to someone like Bristol or Cornwall. They would have nothing to do with the English league structure as all of their games would be in the Pro12. So therefore there wouldn't be any PRL meddling.

At the moment any team in the English league structure has an obligation and duty to develop players for England, even if their names suggest they have a Welsh/Scottish/Irish 'core'. However, surely if London Welsh entered then the WRU would want some sort of development pathway for Welsh players. Otherwise, what's the point in these two teams in particular?

I'm probably jumping to conclusions massively, but that would be my expectation - they'd leave the RFU/PRL and join us.

Sorry mate. I was thinking you meant a B&I league. Silly me.

If those 2 teams were outside PRL and RFU influence then I would have no objection in principle. Not sure that the RFU would sit still for teams in their jurisdiction having no link to them though.

I still think the Italians are worth a shot though. They have grown their international crowds hugely in the last 15 years.....

I agree Jen. Not sure I want a 5th Welsh team to be honest - we struggle to fund 4!

In terms of the Italians there are too many unknowns at the moment. I quite like them being in as they make the league a bit more 'colourful', as others have said. I agree with 'Fly that we shouldn't patronise them, but at the same time they might be saying 'F*ck playing in rainy Newport on a Sunday, it's a sh*thole! Sod Galway on a windy Friday night. We want to be playing in the sun in Rome, Venice and Florence'. They might be the ones looking for a way out. We just don't know.

Griff wrote:I agree Jen. Not sure I want a 5th Welsh team to be honest - we struggle to fund 4!

In terms of the Italians there are too many unknowns at the moment. I quite like them being in as they make the league a bit more 'colourful', as others have said. I agree with 'Fly that we shouldn't patronise them, but at the same time they might be saying 'F*ck playing in rainy Newport on a Sunday, it's a sh*thole! Sod Galway on a windy Friday night. We want to be playing in the sun in Rome, Venice and Florence'. They might be the ones looking for a way out. We just don't know.

I suspect this might be the case. Someone has done the maths and it is not really adding up!

ScrumV having a wee chat about this very topic:


http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/772421880?-11081:2392