Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Many of us fans would agree...but Lancaster rates him and he covers a wide variety of positions. And that's how Lancs rock and rolls....

I rate him as a player but not sure he fits with how the team are playing now. Given spaces are limited and I really only see him covering full back and not fly half, that's why I think it's touch and go.

Well it will be interesting to see where Lancaster goes with his selections.

Theres a number of spots with competition and at the moment no stand out nailed on's

Yes there's a fair few players who can cover 2 or even 3 spots well and it's going to be a bit of a jigsaw.

When is the first cut made? Just feel a bit sorry for Roko if he ends up cutting short his trip home, only to be beasted in the gym for a few days and then sent away without ever really getting a ball in his hands.

Poor fitness results might lose you a place in the squad, but good ones probably won't see you leapfrog ahead. The only way someone is going to make an impact on the current pecking order, is through how they carry themselves on the pitch.

Whilst it will be interesting to see who is in the final squad and whether or not you can guess who Lancaster is going to pick, I don't see the decision of Cowan-Dickie or George, Ashton or Rokoduguni, Daly or Slade, Kruis or Attwood as really making England significantly stronger or weaker.  The only decision that I do see as potentially making a difference is Cipriani or Myler as the third choice No10.  Assuming Cipriani's off-field activities don't preclude him being selected, I think he is something different whereas Myler is 'much of the same'.  I could see Cipriani doing something if we had to chase a game and the players decided to play a 15 man game.  However, I don't see Lancaster as a gambler, so with England 15 points down in the semi-final with 10 minutes to go, I think his natural instinct would be to take off Ford and put on Farrell and try and kick our way to victory.

I think world cup 2019 with a better coach could be interesting for England, as we will have a hardcore of players with lots of experience in their mid to late 20's, plus hopefully 1 or 2 star youngsters pushing for places.

king_carlos wrote:I've got to say that Australia's 40 man squad is looking pretty good with Pocock back from injury, Giteau and Mitchell recalled and Dean Mumm back in the fold.

It's interesting to see Nick Cummins, James O'Connor, Benn Robinson and Ben Alexander overlooked however.

Extended Wallabies Squad: Rory Arnold (Brumbies), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Waratahs), Kurtley Beale (Waratahs), Quade Cooper (Reds), Dave Dennis (Waratahs), James Hanson (Reds/Rebels), Scott Fardy (Brumbies), Tetera Faulkner (Force), Israel Folau (Waratahs), Bernard Foley (Waratahs), Will Genia (Reds), Matt Giteau (Toulon), Scott Higginbotham (Rebels), Greg Holmes (Reds), Michael Hooper (Waratahs), Rob Horne (Waratahs), James Horwill (Reds), Samu Kerevi (Reds), Sekope Kepu (Waratahs), Tevita Kuridrani (Brumbies), Christian Lealiifano (Brumbies), Stephen Moore (Brumbies), Drew Mitchell (Toulon), Wycliff Palu (Waratahs), Ben McCalman (Force), Sean McMahon (Rebels), Dean Mumm (Waratahs), Taqele Naiyaravoro (Waratahs), Nick Phipps (NSW Waratahs), David Pocock (Brumbies), Tatafu Polota-Nau (Waratahs), Scott Sio (Brumbies), Rob Simmons (Reds), Will Skelton (Waratahs), James Slipper (Reds), Toby Smith (Rebels), Henry Speight (Brumbies), Matt Toomua (Brumbies), Joe Tomane (Brumbies), Nic White (Brumbies).

1.Slipper
2.Moore
3.Kepu
4.Mumm or Skelton
5.Simmons
6.McMahon
7.Hooper or Pocock - Or play both on either flank
8.Higginbotham

9.Phipps
10.Foley or Cooper

11.Mitchell
12.Giteau
13.Kuridrani or Ashley-Cooper
14.Speight
15.Folau

Add to that experience and talent such as Horwill, Simmons, Genia and Beale. Along with McCalman, Lealiifano, Toomua and Tomane who have recent international experience in which they impressed. It's a squad with plenty of options and bags of talent.

Bedfordwelsh wrote:Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Smith, Rh Jones
Hookers (3) BALDWIN, HIBBARD, OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC, Baker, Moriarty, King, Thornton

No9s (3) WEBB, PHILLIPS, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Hook, Anscombe, Patchell, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Dixon, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

Looking at those two squads how shocked, surprised or disappointed would people be for us to not make it out of our Pool?

I'd be upset but that's a big challenge, yes home advantage should help, but both those squads have a lot of experience, and have players who've played in RWC's, won at Twickenham and got through to RWC knock outs before. They'll know exactly what to do.

Three quality squads but if injuries become a factor then Wales will suffer more due to less strength in depth imo.
The fixtures have been kind in that 'the big 3' are kept apart for their opening fixtures.
I wish I hadn't had said 'the big 3' because Fiji have got some exceptional players to & we know they are more than capable of an upset!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Three quality squads but if injuries become a factor then Wales will suffer more due to less strength in depth imo.
The fixtures have been kind in that 'the big 3' are kept apart for their opening fixtures.
I wish I hadn't had said 'the big 3' because Fiji have got some exceptional players to & we know they are more than capable of an upset!

Your first point is so true, 2/3 key injuries to add to Davies, And the worries around Lee and Williams, and Wales are truly struggling to find anyone to step in! I think this is why Wales are favourites to miss out!

I'm not sure you can really count Fiji as the Fiji we are used to though, in the last RWC they were missing 5/6 first team players and got humped, this time around there are at least 3/4 first team players not going already, with 3/4 more with question marks.

Injury prone key players must also be a concern for Wales.

When Warburton was made Lions captain I remember one of mine, and a fair few other posters, main concerns being that he likely wouldn't make it through three tests at that intensity. Similarly I'd be very surprised if he made it through a RWC without injury. Tipuric is a brilliant openside to have in reserve though.

Roberts likewise tends to fall apart after a few games in a row. With Davies injured his usual replacement in Williams will already be at 13 too.

Jenkins has had some torrid times with injury too but James does offer a strong replacement at LH.

Lee must be a big worry without proven depth behind him, although Francis is a cracking scrummager.

Likewise Halfpenny has had his share of injuries for a young player. That truly would be a hammer blow given how crucial he is to Gatlands inflexible game plan. Especially with Liam Williams being a worry as well.

Then North has concussion worries.

If their key players can pull through they have a really experienced squad that know each other inside out. Plus their strict gameplan could work well in tight RWC matches with pressure at a maximum. It feels like a big if with a fair few players though.

king_carlos wrote:Injury prone key players must also be a concern for Wales.

When Warburton was made Lions captain I remember one of mine, and a fair few other posters, main concerns being that he likely wouldn't make it through three tests at that intensity. Similarly I'd be very surprised if he made it through a RWC without injury. Tipuric is a brilliant openside to have in reserve though.

Roberts likewise tends to fall apart after a few games in a row. With Davies injured his usual replacement in Williams will already be at 13 too.

Don't say that!!!!!

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Injury prone key players must also be a concern for Wales.

When Warburton was made Lions captain I remember one of mine, and a fair few other posters, main concerns being that he likely wouldn't make it through three tests at that intensity. Similarly I'd be very surprised if he made it through a RWC without injury. Tipuric is a brilliant openside to have in reserve though.

Roberts likewise tends to fall apart after a few games in a row. With Davies injured his usual replacement in Williams will already be at 13 too.

Don't say that!!!!!

Sorry Yappy. I know it's the last thing a Quins fan wants to hear!

He's a player I really enjoy watching when he is fully utilised and allowed to show his skills a bit. Yes his size is a huge asset but he also has a fantastic offload and runs brilliant lines both as a primary runner, decoy or in support. Hence I find it frustrating when I see him solely used as a crash ball runner of either 9 or 10 angling back into traffic.

I hope he stays fit for both the RWC and Jeff but I just struggle to see it.

I'm ot sure it's fair to say that half of the Wales team won't be able to make 7 games, especially when most of the players made 7 games 4 years ago.

Every player has injury periods throughout their career, and every team will have a few injuries during the RWC.

North, Halfpenny, and Warburton all have top class replacements, the problem is when there are 2/3 injuries to sinilar positions, like you mention centre, if Roberts goes down Wales are a different team, the options are to shuffle 2 players around or straight up replace him with an inexperienced replacement.

Lee hasn't played that much, and I don't see Jones as too drop in quality behind him tbh, I havnt seen much of Francis. Likewaise Jenkins has James there.

The injury worry for Wales won't be key players, it'll be the number of injuries, if they can keep that to a minimum they stand a good chance of getting out of the group, if not winning it.

Half their team don't have injury issues Fanster no. However several key players do not have a good recent injury records - for some it now goes back further than the last couple of seasons as well.

I hope it doesn't have an impact on the RWC as the ridiculous rate of injury is one of the biggest blights on the modern game IMO. However in a pool as tough this it may well be.

king_carlos wrote:Half their team don't have injury issues Fanster no. However several key players do not have a good recent injury records - for some it now goes back further than the last couple of seasons as well.

I hope it doesn't have an impact on the RWC as the ridiculous rate of injury is one of the biggest blights on the modern game IMO. However in a pool as tough this it may well be.

It may well be, and I agree with you that Wales will suffer more than England and Australia, howevere to ve pedantic you mentioed 7 players of a 15 man team game, to me you've named half a team.

Point taken Fanster!

However would you argue with any of the players I have mentioned as being injury worries?

Warburton, Roberts and Jenkins have all had recurring injuries over the course of several years now.

Lee and Liam Williams are current injury worries last I heard.

North is a similar situation to Brown as far as I know given that he is no longer showing signs of concussion but is yet to play any rugby since.

Halfpenny has had ongoing injuries throughout this season - I believe Toulon were threatening to terminate his contract due to them near the start of the season.

king_carlos wrote: Point taken Fanster!

However would you argue with any of the players I have mentioned as being injury worries?

Warburton, Roberts and Jenkins have all had recurring injuries over the course of several years now.

Lee and Liam Williams are current injury worries last I heard.

North is a similar situation to Brown as far as I know given that he is no longer showing signs of concussion but is yet to play any rugby since.

Halfpenny has had ongoing injuries throughout this season - I believe Toulon were threatening to terminate his contract due to them near the start of the season.

You make valid points, but I think Warburton has played a fair bit of rugby this season, only being utilised as and when needed more than having to be pulled from squads.

North, and Halfpenny, have both had non occuring injuries, as in North was unlucky to be concussed a number of ties in a few weeks, each time a pretty hefty blow to the head was involved, and halfpenny well has had a few unlucky knocks but has played the majority of big Toulon games this season.

Roberts I have to concede has had a rough 2/3 seasons, but he hasn't missed much Welsh gametime at all to be fair to him, and well Jenkins age is always going to make him a risk.

Lee and Williams from what I've heard are both fully training so not really an issue any more.

Whats interesting is that despite all going through some injury periods with their clubs they very rarely do the same for Wales, I'm not saying they are 'injured' on purpose, but they definately prioritise the international set up.

The intrigueing part of the RWC is that in their pool all 3 of the top teams have the ability to beat each other (although thinking Wales can beat Australia is blind faith right now lol) so points difference may be a huge issue, can Wales afford to rest players at specific games? This may put too much pressure on the first coice 20/22 players, and can they go 7 games in again like last time?

We may be at risk of being amicable enough for this thread to stop functioning, but those are valid points as well.

Is Liam Williams back in full training however? I thought he had foot surgery in late June?

The problem I see with Warburton is playing that many games in a row at such an intensity. Given Wales have Uruguay first up it isn't like he can have a rest mid pool games either. He will likely be needed for the full 80 for back to back weeks of England, Fiji and Australia. All of which will be big physical battles and hugely competitive at the breakdown. Tipuric is an excellent back-up - I'd argue he is the better openside in many ways. However Gatland has a strict and inflexible game plan which Warburton fits into better and is a huge part off.

Similarly at LH. I'd argue that James is a stronger prop than Jenkins these days due to his scrummaging. However Jenkins fits perfectly into the Gatland game plan due to his defensive work rate and breakdown work.

For most of those injury risks Wales have strong players in reserve. It's just whether those different players can fit into that inflexible game plan which I can't help but question.

With Lee and North I'd be worried about the length of time since they last had match rugby before the warm-up games. Until a player gets on the pitch again it is difficult to know just how they will respond and whether anything will flare up.

This is why I was so pleased to see Farrell, Davey Wilson, Launchbury and Slater make the end of the season. Even if they only returned briefly, and didn't even shown form in some cases. It was just a chance to see them back in match intensity and test their injuries to see if anything flared up.

Hence why my biggest concern for England is Mike Brown. Morgan is also a worry in this regard but with Billy V as a back up who also fits our style of play it is less of a concern than Brown IMO.

king_carlos wrote:We may be at risk of being amicable enough for this thread to stop functioning, but those are valid points as well.

Is Liam Williams back in full training however? I thought he had foot surgery in late June?

The problem I see with Warburton is playing that many games in a row at such an intensity. Given Wales have Uruguay first up it isn't like he can have a rest mid pool games either. He will likely be needed for the full 80 for back to back weeks of England, Fiji and Australia. All of which will be big physical battles and hugely competitive at the breakdown. Tipuric is an excellent back-up - I'd argue he is the better openside in many ways. However Gatland has a strict and inflexible game plan which Warburton fits into better and is a huge part off.

Similarly at LH. I'd argue that James is a stronger prop than Jenkins these days due to his scrummaging. However Jenkins fits perfectly into the Gatland game plan due to his defensive work rate and breakdown work.

For most of those injury risks Wales have strong players in reserve. It's just whether those different players can fit into that inflexible game plan which I can't help but question.

With Lee and North I'd be worried about the length of time since they last had match rugby before the warm-up games. Until a player gets on the pitch again it is difficult to know just how they will respond and whether anything will flare up.

This is why I was so pleased to see Farrell, Davey Wilson, Launchbury and Slater make the end of the season. Even if they only returned briefly, and didn't even shown form in some cases. It was just a chance to see them back in match intensity and test their injuries to see if anything flared up.

Hence why my biggest concern for England is Mike Brown. Morgan is also a worry in this regard but with Billy V as a back up who also fits our style of play it is less of a concern than Brown IMO.

Sadly on seeing this comment I wanted to disagree with everything you said with every fibre of my being, however after seeing the fixture I now worry about Warburton having to play 3 games back to back, plus having to feature against Uruguay to be match ready, then who knows...

I would argue Tipuric is a far betteroption too, I would actually replace Lydiate with Warburton at 6, who defends as well but offers more going forward!

Maybe i'm wrong about Liam Williams, but I thought he had returned to training after minor surgery, maybe it meant he returned to the squad?

My starting front row for Wales would be Jenkins Hibbard and James, with Lee replacing James at TH, however that is clearly not what Gatland wants.

I wouldn't worry about Brown, I'm a fan but there was a 6 month period where the media really tried to force him down everyones throats as the best 15 ever, which he clearly isn't, he's dependable, and offers an all round game but he excells at nothing in particular, and isn't a game winner in my opinion. Englands worry is that the other options are limited in certain aspects, so he is a key player.

Morgan isn't a loss, if he's injured England have at worst a slightly inexperienced back up 8 behind Vunipola.

For a good year or so Brown was as good as any full back around but we now have the makings of a very good but different fullback in Watson if he does suffer a setback. Goode, Nowell as well so options. I wouldn t say Easter is inexperienced either.

Fanster wrote:Sadly on seeing this comment I wanted to disagree with everything you said with every fibre of my being, however after seeing the fixture I now worry about Warburton having to play 3 games back to back, plus having to feature against Uruguay to be match ready, then who knows...

I would argue Tipuric is a far betteroption too, I would actually replace Lydiate with Warburton at 6, who defends as well but offers more going forward!

Maybe i'm wrong about Liam Williams, but I thought he had returned to training after minor surgery, maybe it meant he returned to the squad?

My starting front row for Wales would be Jenkins Hibbard and James, with Lee replacing James at TH, however that is clearly not what Gatland wants.

I wouldn't worry about Brown, I'm a fan but there was a 6 month period where the media really tried to force him down everyones throats as the best 15 ever, which he clearly isn't, he's dependable, and offers an all round game but he excells at nothing in particular, and isn't a game winner in my opinion. Englands worry is that the other options are limited in certain aspects, so he is a key player.

Morgan isn't a loss, if he's injured England have at worst a slightly inexperienced back up 8 behind Vunipola.

James as a TH? He played a few games there when Wales had no depth behind Adam Jones. Also of the bench before two props were mandatory. His time in the position wasn't particularly successful if memory serves however. Plus I can't remember him playing anywhere but LH for a couple of seasons at least.

As for Brown his ability under the high ball and ability to make yards in the tightest spaces puts him well ahead of any other option for a RWC IMO. He hasn't hit the same heights he did in his first season in the FB shirt but he is still far more dependable, consistent and rounded than the other options.

Goode wasn't as poor against Ireland as many insinuated but he was beaten in the high ball battle several times - albeit against very good kicking from Murray, Sexton and Kearney. I've often worried about his lack of pace and running threat allowing international opposition to repeatedly kick to him without pressure and his latest performance did little to remedy that.

Brown is very strong for a guy who isn't that big, and he has perfected a way of accelerating when people try to tackle him which means he breaks way more tackles than you'd ever expect. He isn't the most naturally gifted guy out there but he is someone who has made absolutely the most of what he has.

I do wonder if he's been worked out a bit now but for a short while he was there or there abouts as one of the most effective fullbacks in the game, and he fully deserved his player of the series in the previous 6N. What he also offers us is leadership and presence in what is still a very raw backline.

Yappysnap to be honest I don't think the Welsh squad looks impressive at all. It's the same problems for Wales - can field a strong XV but still poor strength in depth. It's why Wales have added more players with English ties to their ranks - Francis and Moriaty.

Difficulty for Wales is that England have got the measure of Wales in their last two matches. They've done this with quite different teams too which shows the strength in depth England have compared to Wales.

2014 win:

England: Brown, Nowell, Burrell, Twelvetrees, May, Farrell, Care, Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan.

2015 win:

England: Brown; Watson, Joseph, Burrell, May; Ford, B Youngs; Marler, Hartley, Cole, Attwood, Kruis, Haskell, Robshaw, B Vunipola.

9 different players in the starting 15 - that should worry Wales.

If England don't make the quarter finals at least then of course Lancaster and co should be sacked.

If we fail to get out of the group, I woudl hope the coaches woudl resign. Awfully expensive to sack them.

True - the RFU foolishly signed up the coaches for the long haul.

When is the squad cut to 45?

Cut this week and then they head to Denver I think.

Bomber would be prime for the chop but I wouldn't be too surprised if Rowntree and Farrell would survive. Both have very good reputations. Most importantly our forwards and defence have been strong under their tutelage.

A lot would come down to what the incoming head coach wanted however.

I'd think Lancaster would be pushed sideways rather than kicked if things didn't work out and he didn't resign.

He has had a very positive benefit on our systems overall. Most of the complaints that have come up are more to do with tactical naievity and not picking whichever player is being massively hyped at the time. You wouldn't want the work he's done bringing new players through going to waste if you could help it.

If we went out in the group stage, a possibility given Wales and Aus there we're in a much better place than when lancaster took over. Still think going into the next couple of years this group is just going to get stronger.

king_carlos wrote:Bomber would be prime for the chop but I wouldn't be too surprised if Rowntree and Farrell would survive. Both have very good reputations. Most importantly our forwards and defence have been strong under their tutelage.

A lot would come down to what the incoming head coach wanted however.

Why on earth would he survive?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Bomber would be prime for the chop but I wouldn't be too surprised if Rowntree and Farrell would survive. Both have very good reputations. Most importantly our forwards and defence have been strong under their tutelage.

A lot would come down to what the incoming head coach wanted however.

Why on earth would he survive?

His main role is as defence coach and our defence has been strong for much of his tenure. The inclusion of Catt to work alongside him with the backs signified that Lancaster felt he wasn't ready to run the backline yet which I still feel is the case. As a defence coach however he has a very good record having worked with a Saracens set up with an excellent defence, overseen a strong defence for his time with England and done the same for a winning Lions side.

I can't recall too many times during this tenure that our defence has failed us. Other than being blown away by NZ in the third test when we were outplayed across the park and the infamous drubbing by Wales with an outmatched, unbalanced pack.

king carlos Farrell was never in charge of the Saracens defence, it's always been Gustard though perhaps Sanderson can take some credit too.

Saracens attack has improved since Farrell has gone to England. Only need to look at the increased try count from 2010-11 to 2014/15.

Farrell has done okay but he's not that impressive in my opinion.

Conceding 100 points in the recent 6 nations wasn't good.

Ireland won the 6 nations because of their superior defence.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Bomber would be prime for the chop but I wouldn't be too surprised if Rowntree and Farrell would survive. Both have very good reputations. Most importantly our forwards and defence have been strong under their tutelage.

A lot would come down to what the incoming head coach wanted however.

Why on earth would he survive?

His main role is as defence coach and our defence has been strong for much of his tenure. The inclusion of Catt to work alongside him with the backs signified that Lancaster felt he wasn't ready to run the backline yet which I still feel is the case. As a defence coach however he has a very good record having worked with a Saracens set up with an excellent defence, overseen a strong defence for his time with England and done the same for a winning Lions side.

I can't recall too many times during this tenure that our defence has failed us. Other than being blown away by NZ in the third test when we were outplayed across the park and the infamous drubbing by Wales with an outmatched, unbalanced pack.

I thought the English defence was pretty poor during the six nations and was the main reason they didn't win the title.

Agreed, our defense was probably the worst its been

Was it the defensive structure - or individuals failing to make tackles?

From memory only the Irish try did not involve a missed one on one tackle - and it is harsh to blame an international defensive coach for those errors. His job is to make sure that the players have the correct structures and are in the right places.

Having said all that I am still unconvinced by Farrell's abilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOpYoTatKnY

Entertaining but very poor defence.

Londontiger a good defensive structure can reduce the danger of weaker defenders.

Perhaps bringing in Brad Barritt would help.

Or not having Twelvetrees in there , what do you think 7.5?

Its obvious, but you need both. A strong defensive structure AND players who can tackle.

We have a poor defensive structure (in my opinion) and players who at times are poor in 1-1 situations.
But you can make allowances to a degree for poor individual tackling if you cover that with a good structure.

Geordiefalcon agreed.

Unfortunately at times it doesn't seem like any winger can tackle bar Nowell.

England have conceded a lot of their tries in my opinion from down the wings.

Whether it's Yarde,Watson,Ashton,Brown or May there has been a real issue there.

Even when England have won games, teams have had success there. They must target it and why not?

It's an issue Lancaster has not fixed since he's been in the job.

I agree, but I would say its not just the wingers.

But surely a good defensive coach can implement a structure that allows cover for weak tackling wingers?

It just seems to me that Farrell has done so. I may be wrong of course and the players just aren't doing their jobs defensively.

I do agree with you that at the moment, I would be looking to start Barritt at 12 if we're going with Ford and Joseph at 10 and 13. Its gives you the best balance until we find the new superstar at 12

So what should Lancaster have done to fix the fact that the clubs produce wingers who cannot tackle?

Perhaps try further down the list - you know stout defenders like Wade and Varndell. Or maybe trying centres on the wing like Burrell and Tuilagi. Or FBs on the wing like ah yeah done that too.


Fact is that decent teams with quick ball will find spaces somewhere. England do defend narrowly and expect the wide men to make their tackles. If they add more help out wide they are vulnerable through the middle

And hey, unless you have the perfect squad, you have to make compromises. So long as we are, more often than not, outscoring the opposition - well the compromise seems to be working..

LondonTiger wrote:So what should Lancaster have done to fix the fact that the clubs produce wingers who cannot tackle?

Perhaps try further down the list - you know stout defenders like Wade and Varndell. Or maybe trying centres on the wing like Burrell and Tuilagi. Or FBs on the wing like ah yeah done that too.


Fact is that decent teams with quick ball will find spaces somewhere. England do defend narrowly and expect the wide men to make their tackles. If they add more help out wide they are vulnerable through the middle

And hey, unless you have the perfect squad, you have to make compromises. So long as we are, more often than not, outscoring the opposition - well the compromise seems to be working..

Well not against Ireland.

And I wouldn't fancy trying that theory against Australia or NZ.

Londontiger Lancaster could emphasise that unless your defence is top notch you won't start for England on the wing and he would encourage the players to work on their 1 on 1 tackling.

England have conceded tries against a variety of teams down the wings whether it's Italy,Wales,Scotland,France, NZ etc.

The strength of the relative teams has been irrelevant.

Yes teams can find spaces but even when England have well beaten a team they have been exposed time and again down those wings - I guess you could argue it's inevitable in a faster, looser game but still need to tighten things up.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or not having Twelvetrees in there , what do you think 7.5?    

Its obvious, but you need both. A strong defensive structure AND players who can tackle.

We have a poor defensive structure (in my opinion) and players who at times are poor in 1-1 situations.
But you can make allowances to a degree for poor individual tackling if you cover that with a good structure.

Yeah personally would still have Twelvetrees over Barritt. Not sure he's the savior and just think Twelvetrees suits the game plan a little more.

A lot of England’s points against in the 6N, came in one game where they threw caution to the wind to chase the impossible dream, and got very close.

Their defence was not good, but that result makes it look a lot worse than it actually was.

Mike Ford was interviewed a while ago, where he effectively apologised to Simpson-Daniel as it he was he who advised the England management not to select him over defensive frailties. His view now is that defensive strength shouldn't come at the expense of attacking players. To an extent I agree with this; clearly you can't select someone woeful at defending, but in the present game defences are so difficult to break down you do need players capable of achieving this. I do take Ford's comments with a slight pinch of salt, as I'm sure it was a veiled attempt to promote Eastmond, but there definitely is a mind set, as with Eastmond, where a defensive mistake is viewed as a worse crime than an attacking one.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger Lancaster could emphasise that unless your defence is top notch you won't start for England on the wing and he would encourage the players to work on their 1 on 1 tackling.

England have conceded tries against a variety of teams down the wings whether it's Italy,Wales,Scotland,France, NZ etc.

The strength of the relative teams has been irrelevant.

Yes teams can find spaces but even when England have well beaten a team they have been exposed time and again down those wings - I guess you could argue it's inevitable in a faster, looser game but still need to tighten things up.

Hmmmm, It hardly matters if you have well beaten a team how many points they scored or where they came from.. but I'd be interested to hear which 'time and time again' you refer to.

You're in real danger of redefining hypocrisy here - according to you, it is a winger's raison d'etre to score tries (and plenty of them). I'd suggest that the majority of wingers' tries come from runs down the wing, so it can't be just England's defence in that position that's lacking. England have also conceded plenty of tries through the midfield and at the fringes. You can blame every single try scored on a defensive frailty of some description, otherwise, no tries would be scored would they.

I'm not sure I buy the "defensive system not good enough" argument.

England's defence was not as good as Ireland's - but on the other hand, that was a very good Irish defence.

Over the last 4 years, England's defence has been one of the better ones in international rugby. Their surprise performance in the 2012 6N was essentially based on defence. If you look at their record over that period, the games they've lost have generally been by less than 7 points.

The big thing that England have lacked has been familiarity with each other. Injury or loss of form has forced a different backline for each series (or in the case of the NZ one, each game of a series). France might not have scored their final try in 2014 had England not had several debutants in the team and been forced to reshuffle the line from the 5th minute. Ireland might not have scored their try this year had England had Brown to compete for the high ball.

I actually think that what Farrell has achieved with the defensive system is pretty impressive. England have the advantage of a long training camp in which they can develop familiarity between the players in the final squad - which should help to iron out some of the remaining kinks. We won't know until the warm ups at the earliest, but I don't think we should dismiss either the players or the system just yet.

well past it conceding 3 tries vs Italy is not very impressive. It's not as if the Italian attack is famed throughout the world of rugby.

Jimpy the wings in general have been poor with Lancaster in charge - this 6 nations was better but May still threw in two defensive mistakes - one vs Wales and the other vs Italy.

Cuthbert leaving Brown clutching at air twice in that 2013 game at Millennium Stadium.

NZ tearing through England last June. Yarde missed numerous tackles that day.

France scoring 3 tries vs England last year in the 6 nations.

Watson's tackling being very poor in the 6 nations this season.

There are plenty of examples.

I want to see wingers scoring tries - of course I do but we are talking about areas England need to improve upon. It's also about getting the best from players.

I have said time and again that I want England to get the best out of their wingers. I think Lancaster has struggled throughout his tenure but this 6 nations was an improvement with Nowell and Watson on the wings.

A run of games with the same backline may do wonders.

No 7&1/2 wrote:A run of games with the same backline may do wonders.