Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

First topic message reminder :

England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Geordiefalcon it's hard to say about Slater because he's unproven due to injury.

Bambam perhaps but Lancaster will need some convincing to play him at 6 because obviously he doesn't see Burgess as a 6 shown by lumping him in with the centres.

Isn't Clifford a number 8?

Burgess has been rejected at 6 for now because Lancaster wants a 6 who is effective in the lineout. It is a reason. I am not sure I entirely agree with because if you play Burgess you want him involved as much as possible with a bit of license on how and where, which is what he'd get as a 6, but it makes sense for now.

If we went with an 8 who jumps (Easter now, Beaumont in the future? ) things might hopefully be different

Going forward you'd hope things will change, but time between now and the RWC is limited and its not a training exercise.

Clifford looks a bit small for an 8 to me but can play across the back row. The way in for Itoje is the option to use him for cover at lock or 6 and then see where the opportuity through injury etc arrises.

Or go with two locks who can jump?

4 Lawes
5 Attwood / Slater / Kitchener / Kruis

Clifford should go for 7.

Next season:
6 Ewers
7 Clifford
8 Billy V

Or
6 Itoje
7 Kvesic
8 Ben M

Good days when the competition will be such that some very good players won't get a look in (not for them obviously, but...)

lostinwales wrote:Burgess has been rejected at 6 for now because Lancaster wants a 6 who is effective in the lineout. It is a reason. I am not sure I entirely agree with because if you play Burgess you want him involved as much as possible with a bit of license on how and where, which is what he'd get as a 6, but it makes sense for now.

If we went with an 8 who jumps (Easter now, Beaumont in the future? ) things might hopefully be different

Going forward you'd hope things will change, but time between now and the RWC is limited and its not a training exercise.

Lostinwales why would Lancaster reject both Slater and Itoje then? Both can offer lineout options.

Seems to me like Lancaster has reduced 6 options too much.

No Ewers, no Itoje,no Burgess at 6, no Slater etc.

Geordiefalcon can Attwood jump? I like Kruis but he's not exactly improved his lineout as much as I would like him to.


I wouldn't say England are famed for their lineout jumpers.

Oh and how on earth will Clifford be able to win the 7 shirt off Robshaw?

On a side not what's happened to Wallace? I thought he was the next big thing at 7 for Quins.

Clifford is already putting in some great performances and probably played better than Robshaw for a good chunk of the season. If he manages to push on next season he would offer a good alternative.

I can only think that, right now according to Lancaster, Itoje lacks experience and Slater lacks conditioning after being out so long (and international experience also).

There isn't often going to be a single reason why some of these players are going to miss out.

What I do find interesting is speculating on who might get the call when the inevitable injuries hit the squad in the pool stages? Might we, for instance, see Manu coming back in as a replacement if one of the centers go down.

Surely Daly would be the first replacement if a centre drops out?

I think Foden might get a recall if a winger or full back drops out.

Hooker - that's interesting....

If I was going to speculate

LH-Auterac
TH - unsure
HK- don't know
Lock - Itoje or Slater
6 - Itoje or Slater or Ewers
7 - don't know
8-Ewers
9 - Simpson
10 - Myler
Wings - Wade
Centres- Daly
Full back - Foden

Talking about pool stages I don't think you'll see m(any) players from outside that initial group. Foden would be the exception possibly.

If we're assuming injuries in the pool stages, then this is based on players who I don't think will make the final squad

LH - Mullan
HK - LCD
TH - Brookes
Lock - Slater
6 - Itoje
7 - Kvesic
8 - Ewers
9 - Dickson
10 - Cipriani
Wing - Rokoduguni
IC - Twelvetrees
OC - Daly
FB - Foden

You think Easter will make the final 31?

And 36 won't?

Forgot about Easter, he'd be ahead of Ewers then

I'm unsure on 36

Assuming we're taking 3 out and out centres, JJ is nailed on and Barritt is as good as

Leaves Burrell and Twelvetrees, I reckon it comes down to whether you'd rather have:

12. Barritt 13. Burrell or
12. Twelvetrees 13. Barritt

If JJ went down .. I'd go with the second personally, but can see Lancs going for Burrell

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or go with two locks who can jump?

4 Lawes
5 Attwood / Slater / Kitchener / Kruis

Im not sure picking your locks to shoe horn in a guy whos at best got an outside chance of playing at all is the best idea.

Thats only my opinion though.

All this talk of Burgess at Centre is a joke right?

Because if that's a serious option then England are in trouble.

As much as I appreciate the "work ethic / grafting" forwards...it bores me at times.

Wheres the razamatazz fire works. Wheres the thundering rampaging animals that excite spectators. Only Ben Morgan is capable of really getting people on their feet out of the forwards.

You can't have been bored the last 6Ns surely?

GeordieFalcon wrote:As much as I appreciate the "work ethic / grafting" forwards...it bores me at times.

Wheres the razamatazz fire works. Wheres the thundering rampaging animals that excite spectators. Only Ben Morgan is capable of really getting people on their feet out of the forwards.

A back row of Itoje, Clifford and Morgan (or Beaumont) would probably float your boat then. Very possible by 2019.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't have been bored the last 6Ns surely?

Ah the France game was great. And England did play some decent rugby in the 6n.

But do you understand what I mean. I want the team to be efficient, workman like its hugely important etc etc...but sometimes I just want them to explode and to see them throw the ball around like the Fijians.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:As much as I appreciate the "work ethic / grafting" forwards...it bores me at times.

Wheres the razamatazz fire works. Wheres the thundering rampaging animals that excite spectators. Only Ben Morgan is capable of really getting people on their feet out of the forwards.

A back row of Itoje, Clifford and Morgan (or Beaumont) would probably float your boat then. Very possible by 2019.

Very possibly. And what I like about them is the ability to be more than just workman like.

Robshaw for example is a top class player...but he's workmanlike...he's not an exciting player. Clifford has the ability to be exactly the same...but he also has the potential do something exciting.

Likewise Itjoe.

And that's what we should be looking for long term. The players who can play to Lancasters needs - Workmanlike, efficient good alrounders....but who can also get fans on their feet.

Bulldozing runs through are great but I'd prefer to stay away from having a pack as good as Fiji!

What about Vunipola, Itoje and Burgess as the backrow?

Sounds great if we want to get turned over at every ruck

TightHEAD wrote:All this talk of Burgess at Centre is a joke right?

Because if that's a serious option then England are in trouble.

I think it is a way of pre-empting the fact that he won't make the final cut. England management's credibility would take a pounding if he does at centre, and opposition sides will be praying he does.

Much as i respect Burgess for what he has achieved and his potential, i cannot believe that he is the best option at 12 for an England side with a consistently unsettled centre axis and for that reason i think he won't be in the final squad.

If he his...

BamBam, though those three many not be the most traditional backrowers, both Vunipola and Itoje do, do some of the basic tasks.  If both Itoje and Burgess has another full year under their belts, it would be interesting to see what they can do.  All are potential ball carriers and Itoje in theory should be able to offer something in the line out.

Not suggesting they would compete with the Pococks and Hoppers of this world.

Rightly or wrongly Nathan Hughes may well be an option as from next year.
He has got the lot including ability to turnover.

Billy V can turnover when he wants to ....his work rate is fantastic.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Rightly or wrongly Nathan Hughes may well be an option as from next year.
He has got the lot including ability to turnover.

There was four in the ruck and the little scrummy said
'turnover turnover'
So they all turned over and the ball popped out...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Billy V can turnover when he wants to ....his work rate is fantastic.

I imagine a fat sweat like him could practically roll anywhere, its hard to know which side is up.