Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

I think Haskell is judged harshly in part because of all the hype when he was a younger player - he was a bigger, faster Dallaglio - and also the 'Brand Haskell' fiasco. I think purely on performance - 50+ caps, the ability to play equally at 6/7/8, England's best performer at the 2011 World Cup (ok not such a biggie), not jumped off any ferries/punched any police women/etc then I think he has had a good career, with some years ahead of him yet.

I think we can afford a couple of 'x factor' players in our World Cup squad, particularly as definite picks such as Robshaw and Wood can cover 6 or 7. Having someone on the bench who can play centre or backrow does allow more freedom to pick your subs. Burgess was such a good league player and doing it in the NRL as a pom, shows not only how skilful he is, but a real hardness and mental strength. So I am on the side of giving him a chance - it is almost a shot to nothing - and including him in the squad if he is anywhere near so on performance in he training camp.

Im not sure Haskell is judged harsh.

In my opinon he had everything to be a very memorable player of our generation. He had the size the physicality. He can be "ferocious" in defence and can be a fantastic carrier. He just seemed unable to put them together consistently, and certainly not at international level.

Many see this as a lack of intelligence. Maybe so, then my question becomes more pertinent, have the management let him down...or not managed him well enough to really make the most of him...which for me is a powerhouse 6.

He ran into a post...

No 7&1/2 wrote:He ran into a post...

Some say his IQ went up by 0.5 that day!

I do jest, he did afterall pick up a motm that day and he was very good. I think it's been mentioned though it was mainly down to his big carrying performance. For me he's actually not very good at the breakdown. Too many mistakes here and stupid ones at that.

There is also Haskell's poor discipline at international too. Too many stupid infringements.

Shown this most obviously with his high penalty count against him vs Ireland and his trip vs France.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do jest, he did afterall pick up a motm that day and he was very good. I think it's been mentioned though it was mainly down to his big carrying performance. For me he's actually not very good at the breakdown. Too many mistakes here and stupid ones at that.

I would agree...so should the management not have said...don't focus so much there...focus on tackling and carrying. Hit everything that moves - hard. Disrupt them. Be a right royal pain in the a$$, and carry as much as possible.
Let the likes of Robshaw, Cole, Marler, Hartley etc etc focus on the breakdown. Don't give Haskell the options to make mistakes.

That's the way I would see them using Burgess aswell initially.

extraordinary that a guy who has only played a handful of union matches in 2 positions is regarded as worthy of inclusion in England's RWC squad. But based on the Next Best Thing approach that England have adopted in an attempt to solve their centre problems its hardly surprising. He did nothing in the perm to warrant inclusion, his stock was artificially raised by a MOM gong or two and a press campaign and now he is in the squad but nobody even knows what position he is being considered for….his talismanic status in a completely different game thousands of miles away seems to be enough to warrant betting on him bringing him to RWC.
English credibility would take such a pounding if he were to play at the RWC and I am betting on that is why he won't…but if he does you know its because he is a massive gamble and i am sure all the opposing sides are hoping he is.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do jest, he did afterall pick up a motm that day and he was very good. I think it's been mentioned though it was mainly down to his big carrying performance. For me he's actually not very good at the breakdown. Too many mistakes here and stupid ones at that.

I would agree...so should the management not have said...don't focus so much there...focus on tackling and carrying. Hit everything that moves - hard. Disrupt them. Be a right royal pain in the a$$, and carry as much as possible.
Let the likes of Robshaw, Cole, Marler, Hartley etc etc focus on the breakdown. Don't give Haskell the options to make mistakes.

That's the way I would see them using Burgess aswell initially.

I saw a lot of Haskell last season at Wasps & he was superb at the breakdown & used his strength on many occasions to hold players up & force turnovers.
To be fair he hasn't been so consistent at international level BUT in my opinion he is the form 6 & I would like him to start in the big games.
Fair enough if Wood or Burgess show up in training but that is something we just don't know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do jest, he did afterall pick up a motm that day and he was very good. I think it's been mentioned though it was mainly down to his big carrying performance. For me he's actually not very good at the breakdown. Too many mistakes here and stupid ones at that.

Thing is though, he CAN be. Remember that certain match v Australia when England were camped on their own try line - at the breakdown after several phases of play, it was Haskell who went in there and turned the ball over, it was genius - if the referee had seen anything untoward, he'd have pinged the man for using his hands on the floor. Youngs got it and Ashton went the length of the pitch to score via Lawes. That's what Haskell is capable of.

Its the consistent bit for me Trev just think he lacks something.

Jimpy, you mean the length of the field 1? It was Palmer with the ref not seeing anything?

Gwlad wrote:extraordinary that a guy who has only played a handful of union matches in 2 positions is regarded as worthy of inclusion in England's RWC squad. But based on the Next Best Thing approach that England have adopted in an attempt to solve their centre problems its hardly surprising. He did nothing in the perm to warrant inclusion, his stock was artificially raised by a  MOM gong or two and  a press campaign and now he is in the squad but nobody even knows what position he is being considered for….his talismanic status in a completely different game thousands of miles away seems to be enough to warrant betting on him bringing him to RWC.
English credibility would take such a pounding if he were to play at the RWC and I am betting on that is why he won't…but if he does you know its because he is a massive gamble and i am sure all the opposing sides are hoping he is.

Trev, surely most of the time the Brand was playing at 7 for Wasps with Johnson at 6?

So if this so far has all been about fitness....when do they start drills, tactics, and prep for the warm up games.

And when is the squad numbers reduced again?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So if this so far has all been about fitness....when do they start drills, tactics, and prep for the warm up games.

And when is the squad numbers reduced again?

There's info in the link below (dated 13th July)

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/surfing-social-media-england-arrive-denver/

England’s 45-man squad flew out to Denver this weekend ahead of the next phase of their exacting preparation schedule for the Rugby World Cup, which begins in earnest on 18 September with the tournament-opening encounter against Fiji at Twickenham. 

Stuart Lancaster’s charges have already been together for three weeks at Pennyhill Park, undergoing an arduous fitness programme.

Over the next fortnight across the Atlantic Ocean, rugby-based drills are incorporated alongside more tough work at altitude.


Not sure exactly when the 31-man squad is released. The deadline is 31st August.

Well this seems ... idiotic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11747184/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Stuart-Lancaster-gives-ruling-on-Sam-Burgess.html

BamBam wrote:Well this seems ... idiotic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11747184/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Stuart-Lancaster-gives-ruling-on-Sam-Burgess.html

Credibility factor is fast diminishing, this leads me to think he is seriously considering the guy at 12. Doing so at RWC would be a catastrophe.

BamBam wrote:Well this seems ... idiotic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11747184/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Stuart-Lancaster-gives-ruling-on-Sam-Burgess.html

Ah well no Burgess at the world cup then. Burrell and Barritt are much better options for a bosher in the centre.

It's pretty common to split a squad into backs and forwards for training purposes, so it's hard to accommodate a player who fits into both. A World Cup training camp doesn't seem like the right venue to be teaching a player elementary skills.

Ah Burgess should only be considered for the back row! Not the centre.

If he's that bothered about missing Manu, then he should have made an example of him in another way (Fines, domestic bans, community service etc), but still had him in the England squad.

True geordiefalcon, Lancaster has still stuck with Danny Cipriani despite the controversy surrounding him.

England don't have many centres in the squad..... only 36,Slade,Barritt,Burrell,Joseph and Eastmond.

It kind of horrifies me that he might play a centre partnership of Farrell and Burgess at some point.

With the dropping of Slater and Itoje and forcing Burgess to be a 12 -I think Lancaster has been paving the way for Clark to make his England debut.

Options don't look particularly interesting at blindside now.

He was right to bin Tuilagi though, you shouldn't assault anyone and get away with a slap on the wrist. If Cips gets done he'll join him. Think it just means Burrell and Barritt are guarantees along with Joseph.

beshocked wrote:True geordiefalcon, Lancaster has still stuck with Danny Cipriani despite the controversy surrounding him.

England don't have many centres in the squad..... only 36,Slade,Barritt,Burrell,Joseph and Eastmond.

It kind of horrifies me that he might play a centre partnership of Farrell and Burgess at some point.

With the dropping of Slater and Itoje and forcing Burgess to be a 12 -I think Lancaster has been paving the way for Clark to make his England debut.

Options don't look particularly interesting at blindside now.

Well he's the same style as Robshaw and Wood. And he was playing exceptionally well at times through the season.
I like the fact he's a tough nut as well. He's physical.

But ah....its not inspiring is it....

Geordiefalcon to be fair as you say Clark has played very well at times this season but I don't think he offers anything different or better than the flankers left in the squad or those who were left out either!

Also he was part of a Saints pack who didn't really have a Plan B when sides could match power with power like Racing Metro,Sarries and Clermont. It's all well and good being a bully boy but if you're outbullied..... Though saying that accusation could be thrown at most sides.

Lawes is a bully boy too but there's more to his game, same with Hartley.

Now I know size isn't everything but Calum Clark doesn't exactly fare well in the size stakes compared to the likes of Slater,Burgess and Itoje - all 3 who I think are more powerful players. All three have been ruled out of the backrow battle which is a shame.

Perhaps it's Clark's doggedness that Lancaster likes. Less talent but more tenacity might have swung things in his favour.

I'd argue that Clark has the best breakdown technique of any of our flankers .. still wouldn't take him to the World Cup but he's top drawer in that department

He's not a 6 in the sense of a big hitting carrier, and isn't even as much of an all rounder as Wood is. Not quick enough to be an international 7 either

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon to be fair as you say Clark has played very well at times this season but I don't think he offers anything different or better than the flankers left in the squad or those who were left out either!

Also he was part of a Saints pack who didn't really have a Plan B when sides could match power with power like Racing Metro,Sarries and Clermont. It's all well and good being a bully boy but if you're outbullied..... Though saying that accusation could be thrown at most sides.

Lawes is a bully boy too but there's more to his game, same with Hartley.

Now I know size isn't everything but Calum Clark doesn't exactly fare well in the size stakes compared to the likes of Slater,Burgess and Itoje - all 3 who I think are more powerful players. All three have been ruled out of the backrow battle which is a shame.

Perhaps it's Clark's doggedness that Lancaster likes. Less talent but more tenacity might have swung things in his favour.

BREAKING NEWS…..Burgess is a centre.

LondonTiger wrote:Trev, surely most of the time the Brand was playing at 7 for Wasps with Johnson at 6?

Yes Tiger - I was just saying that of the options left at 6 for England he has been the most consistent. Player throughout the season.

Beshocked - I believe Nathan Hughes outplayed Billy V last season & stats and awards evidence this. Add together Asley Johnson & James Haskell that was the standout back row for most neutrals I would say?

Next season Ash will move to hooker paving the way for George Smith at 6 & our pack will be looking very strong overall.

Lancaster can seem a bit odd at selection time.

Burgess has not really shown any international class at centre but has show glimpses in the backrow (and seemed to be getting better).  Plus he is a little different from the other options.

Thus it seems odd to consider him only as a centre where I think he would struggle to be selected over the other candidates.

I guess they just cannot see him getting past the other back row candidates.

Saying he is a ready made replacement for Manu undersells what Samoglish lad can do. Burgess just seems to truck the ball in a straight line, parallel to the tough lines and perhaps look to offload. Manu has a step, an outside arc and can vary his running lines. He can offload and has a decent but underused pass.

I was a bit surprised that they've ruled out Burgess as a 6 so early, but if they feel they can't get him up to international lineout standard then it makes sense.

They may feel that with the time they have to play with they can give him enough variety in his play to be part of the back line, and his big advantage over all other candidates except Manu and Joseph is that a defense can't under commit to him.

And lets face it, with the way England play if the 6 is not a lineout option, we need to find one elsewhere. There is no input from no8, and no matter how good they are at club level, Launchbury and Robshaw are rarely used by England.

BamBam wrote:I'd argue that Clark has the best breakdown technique of any of our flankers .. still wouldn't take him to the World Cup but he's top drawer in that department

He's not a 6 in the sense of a big hitting carrier, and isn't even as much of an all rounder as Wood is. Not quick enough to be an international 7 either

I wouldn't take him, purely because he should never be forgiven for deliberately breaking an opponent's arm.

Awful thing to do but he's served his time has very good discipline on the pitch now. Think it should come down to how good a player you think he is rather than that incident now.

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:I'd argue that Clark has the best breakdown technique of any of our flankers .. still wouldn't take him to the World Cup but he's top drawer in that department

He's not a 6 in the sense of a big hitting carrier, and isn't even as much of an all rounder as Wood is. Not quick enough to be an international 7 either

I wouldn't take him, purely because he should never be forgiven for deliberately breaking an opponent's arm.

Well then Umaga and Mealamu should never have played again for trying to break O'Driscols neck. They regarded as top players of their generation.

We've discussed the Clark situation to death on these boards. As 7.5 says...ultimately now its about his performances on the pitch.

His breakdown is excellent...but is the rest of his game got the x-factor we want.

Gwlad wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon to be fair as you say Clark has played very well at times this season but I don't think he offers anything different or better than the flankers left in the squad or those who were left out either!

Also he was part of a Saints pack who didn't really have a Plan B when sides could match power with power like Racing Metro,Sarries and Clermont. It's all well and good being a bully boy but if you're outbullied..... Though saying that accusation could be thrown at most sides.

Lawes is a bully boy too but there's more to his game, same with Hartley.

Now I know size isn't everything but Calum Clark doesn't exactly fare well in the size stakes compared to the likes of Slater,Burgess and Itoje - all 3 who I think are more powerful players. All three have been ruled out of the backrow battle which is a shame.

Perhaps it's Clark's doggedness that Lancaster likes. Less talent but more tenacity might have swung things in his favour.

BREAKING NEWS…..Burgess is a centre.

No he's not....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:I'd argue that Clark has the best breakdown technique of any of our flankers .. still wouldn't take him to the World Cup but he's top drawer in that department

He's not a 6 in the sense of a big hitting carrier, and isn't even as much of an all rounder as Wood is. Not quick enough to be an international 7 either

I wouldn't take him, purely because he should never be forgiven for deliberately breaking an opponent's arm.

Well then Umaga and Mealamu should never have played again for trying to break O'Driscols neck. They regarded as top players of their generation.

We've discussed the Clark situation to death on these boards. As 7.5 says...ultimately now its about his performances on the pitch.

His breakdown is excellent...but is the rest of his game got the x-factor we want.  

Freudian slip?....

Oops...

Bigstrevsbigmac bear in mind that Nathan Hughes played more AP games than Billy - it's not a big surprise he would top him in AP stats.

Billy was massively influential in the games he played in.

Oh and of course Billy was probably England's best forward in the 6 nations.

Wasps backrow the stand out? Not sure. It's good but think the Sarries,Bath and Saints had stronger ones personally.

Burgess,Louw,Houston
Itoje,Burger,Billy
Wood,Clark,Manoa



Jimpy should Manu never play for England again after assaulting a female police officer?

Breaking someone's arm isn't good but Clark has served his time.

beshocked wrote:Bigstrevsbigmac bear in mind that Nathan Hughes played more AP games than Billy - it's not a big surprise he would top him in AP stats.

Billy was massively influential in the games he played in.

Oh and of course Billy was probably England's best forward in the 6 nations.

Wasps backrow the stand out? Not sure. It's good but think the Sarries,Bath and Saints had stronger ones personally.

Burgess,Louw,Houston
Itoje,Burger,Billy
Wood,Clark,Manoa



Jimpy should Manu never play for England again after assaulting a female police officer?

Breaking someone's arm isn't good but Clark has served his time.

As we all know, there are varying degrees of assault so you can't make the correlation. If he'd deliberately broken a female police officer's arm, I'd say yes.

The female police officer obviously allowed herself to be 'bullied' by Manu, she should be withdrawn from service.

Jimpy there is a correlation though. Both players have done something reckless and stupid. Some might believe that assaulting female police officers is worse. It's not as if Manu has a clean record either.

You have to put your personal opinion to the side and rate a player on their playing abilities.

I do sympathise to some extent there is one England player who I think is an uncouth lout but if he plays well should be back in the England team because he is abrasive and tough.

Do you reckon 6 is going to be Itojes position then beshocked?

Don't know no 7 & 1/2. I think that's his best chance if he wants to play for and start for England though.

Plus one of the most famous Saracens wore the England 6 shirt with much prestige. Itoje would follow in his footsteps but also bring an entirely different dimension.

Think Saracens will utilise him both at lock and 6 - wherever he is needed.

Sarries have plenty of backrowers but not so many locks so Sarries might use him more in the 2nd row probably partnering Kruis as first choice.

I know I keep banging on about it but he did play 6 in the AP final - shows he has some proficiency in that position.

We do have a good stable of locks available for England, but these players are not always durable.

Lawes is looking in better shape but has had a lot of time off with injuries and it sounds like he had a shoulder problem for a lot of the late part of the season. Launchbury obviously missed most of last season too, as did Slater.

If Itoje moves to lock full time he'd get chances at some point

He's currently showing something in either role. Just don't want him to fail to captilise on reaching his potential because he can cover. He played both positions in the final in the end just short of 50 50. If he stays the same size 6 could well be his best position but think he's going to get bigger.

Lostinwales a player can't rely on injuries. Also Itoje would be competing with his fellow Sarries man Kruis.

England have Parling,Slater,Kitchener,Kruis,Launchbury,Attwood and Lawes as potential locks that he would need to overhaul.

At 6 - Itoje would need to overhaul just Haskell and Wood (perhaps Clark) as Burgess has been rejected by Lancaster as a 6 - should be easier to do that.

1 injury to one of them and Itoje is right there in the mix.

Compare this to the situation at Saracens at 6.

Lancaster does not rate Jackson Wray as a player and I don't think he'll ever be in the England squad. Itoje has already overhauled him at Sarries and kept Brown out of the Sarries 23 in the final. Sarries will continue to favour Itoje and I expect in the future Lancaster will use Itoje as a versatile bench option in next year's 6 nations IMO if he stays fit.

We have a great stable of locks...but at the same time any of them are replaceable.

The only one at present I think is a real complete player is Slater. Its such a shame that he got injured...he could have nailed a position. Of course its another level up so we'd need to see how he performs as I had hoped Attwood was the same but failed miserably.

I'd hope that Burgess is seen as a back rower after the world cup rather than a 12, especially if Bath continue to play him there

beshocked wrote:Lostinwales a player can't rely on injuries. Also Itoje would be competing with his fellow Sarries man Kruis.

England have Parling,Slater,Kitchener,Kruis,Launchbury,Attwood and Lawes as potential locks that he would need to overhaul.

At 6 - Itoje would need to overhaul just Haskell and Wood (perhaps Clark) as Burgess has been rejected by Lancaster as a 6 - should be easier to do that.

1 injury to one of them and Itoje is right there in the mix.

That would seem the easier option.

beshocked wrote:Lostinwales a player can't rely on injuries. Also Itoje would be competing with his fellow Sarries man Kruis.

England have Parling,Slater,Kitchener,Kruis,Launchbury,Attwood and Lawes as potential locks that he would need to overhaul.

At 6 - Itoje would need to overhaul just Haskell and Wood (perhaps Clark) as Burgess has been rejected by Lancaster as a 6 - should be easier to do that.

1 injury to one of them and Itoje is right there in the mix.

That's an absolute ludicrous decision and shows Lancaster has some way to go as a top coach!

Burgess has been rejected at the moment, apparently. If he sticks around in union and perfects his lineout with Bath he'll be right up there. You've got the likes of Clifford coming through as well. Very strong pack in general. Good to have this level of competition.