Pro12 FINAL - Glasgow Warriors v Munster Rugby, 30 May

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31 GLASGOW WARRIORS v MUNSTER RUGBY 13
Saturday 30 May 2015
KO: 18:30
Ravenhill, Belfast

Live on Sky Sports/TG4/BBC Sport Scotland

Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU, 127th competition game)
Assistant Referees: 1) Ian Davies, 2) Sean Brickell, 4) Gwyn Morris, 5) Wayne Davies (all WRU )
Citing Commissioner: Stefano Marrama (FIR)
TMO: Derek Bevan (WRU)

A. Head to Head - Aggregate

25 Played 25
9 Wins 15
15 Losses 9
1 Draws 1
46 Tries 63
36 Conversions 42
64 Penalties 54
1 Drop Goals 1
491 Points 564
25 Avg. Age 27

B. Head to Head - Recently

Sat 28 Feb 2015 - Munster Rugby 22 - 10 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 20 Dec 2014 - Glasgow Warriors 21 - 18 Munster Rugby

Fri 16 May 2014 (PO) -  Glasgow Warriors 16 - 15 Munster Rugby

Sat 12 Apr 2014 - Munster Rugby 5 - 22 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 25 Oct 2013 - Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby

C. Run-In

Glasgow Warriors

22/05/15 - Glasgow 16 - 14 Ulster

16/05/15 Glasgow 32 - 10 Ulster

08/05/15 Ospreys 21 - 10 Glasgow

Munster Rugby

23/05/15 Munster 21 - 18 Ospreys

16/05/15 Munster 50 - 27 Dragons

09/05/15 Ulster 23 - 23 Munster

D. Teams

Glasgow Warriors

Stuart Hogg, Tommy Seymour, Richie Vernon, Peter Horne, DTH van der Merwe, Finn Russell, Henry Pyrgos, Gordon Reid, Dougie Hall, Rossouw de Klerk, Leone Nakarawa, Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Ryan Wilson, Josh Strauss (captain).

Replacements: Fraser Brown, Jerry Yanuyanutawa, Jon Welsh, Al Kellock, Chris Fusaro, Niko Matawalu, Duncan Weir, Sean Lamont.

Munster Rugby

Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Andrew Smith, Denis Hurley (captain), Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Eusebio Guinazu, BJ Botha; Billy Holland, Paul O'Connell; Donnacha Ryan, Paddy Butler, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, Stephen Archer, Sean Dougall, Jack O'Donoghue, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Ronan O'Mahony.

Cambo wrote:Still thinking about hilarious wee Jimbopips suggestion for an Al Kellock award-surely there must be comic gold there!

Cambo, do try and keep up with the times.

At the Glasgow end of season awards there was a new trophy, "The Al Kellock Leadership Award"
Can you guess who the inaugural recipient was?

There are times, Cambo, when reality is funnier than anything we can conjure up on these boards.


p.s. We are the champions
p.p.s Big Al is a legend, official

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Glasgow choked on the european front, twice against Blues 2 seasons a go and twice against Toulouse this season, thats the reason.

The pack has been found wanting at the highest level too, which was why it was so pleasing to see them cope admirably with Munster last night.

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Glasgow choked on the european front, twice against Blues 2 seasons a go and twice against Toulouse this season, thats the reason.

Don A, I think it's been about lack of self-belief. Jonny Wilkinson said the other season that apart from 10 minutes were Toulon tore us apart Glasgow played as well as anyone has done at their place. I would suggest that they were only able to do that once the game was safely lost because they didn't really believe in themselves. However, next season should be interesting. Youngsters starting out at the Irish provinces, Connacht excepted, are told they are joining a side who have won leagues and European trophies and that is what they expect to be part of. When Kellock and Schlong joined the Warriors what were they signing up for?
Now, what do you think Big Tacky, and all our other signings, are thinking this morning? They're joining the best team in the Pro 12 and reigning champions. That's what they're thinking.
Europe next season will be very interesting indeed, Don.

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Glasgow choked on the european front, twice against Blues 2 seasons a go and twice against Toulouse this season, thats the reason.

Very droll.

Don Alfonso wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Glasgow choked on the european front, twice against Blues 2 seasons a go and twice against Toulouse this season, thats the reason.

Very droll.

Incidentally these 4 games came right after the AI where Glasgow lose 20 players and have to re-adopt a correct game plan instead of the dross they are told to do in the Scottish shirt.

Will that change next season?

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Townsend is doing a great job building a team with some key signings to augment what he has (like Nakarawa and Joss Straus). A lot of injuries and lack of depth (good enough) is what did them in Europe this year. I'd imagine that with a bit of luck next season they will do better.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Genuine question - why have Glasgow never got anywhere in Europe?

It's all very well comparing heads-to-heads, but the provinces have been in finals, semi-finals, quarter-finals aplenty over the last five years.

Although the table was very close, Glasgow were clearly the best Pro12 team this year, and they play a fantastic style of rugby. For family reasons, they're my second team. So believe me when I say I genuinely wonder.

Glasgow choked on the european front, twice against Blues 2 seasons a go and twice against Toulouse this season, thats the reason.

The pack has been found wanting at the highest level too, which was why it was so pleasing to see them cope admirably with Munster last night.

Munster were missing two key backrowers - POM & TOD. Munster's backrow consisted of a lock playing 6 and Dougall who is leaving because he couldn't get a look in with Munster.

What might well help will be the seedings, actually. Top seed is a very valuable position to be in. I wouldn't be convinced that Glasgow have the depth to challenge on two fronts, however.

Do they have limits on the number of NSQ players?

Well done Glasgow. Just watched the game this morning. Played some superb rugby.

Don Alfonso wrote:Will that change next season?

Yes, it may Don, and not necessarily for the better.

The club culture will remain but a number of key players are going to retire or move to other clubs and these are holes which still mostly need filled. There are valid concerns that Toonie is placing too much hope in the younger SQ players due to their association with a winning club this season and not addressing the fact that experienced internationals are also required. In terms of the biggest losses:

1. DTH to the Scarlets

The club's record try scorer moving to a sworn enemy. An extremely difficult man to replace - there is an argument that it's between him and Craig Gilroy to the who is the best winger in the Pro 12 at the moment. At least this problem is mitigated with (as you may have heard) Glasgow having signed the giant Fijian prodigy, Taqele Naiyaravoro, from the Waratahs.

2. Nikola Matawalu to Bath

Our feelings are mixed about this. High risk, high return. His unpredictability is needed to unpick locked defences or if you need that bonus point try desperately but over the years, as teams began to figure him out, his debit column started to be comparable to his credits. There is literally nobody else quite like him in the NH game but on balance some Glasgow fans will see it as the correct decision for him to move on. Not least, because it frees up the slot for another very good SQ player in Grayson Hart to get some game time. 9s should develop well at Glasgow with Mike Blair to mentor them from next season.

3. Sean Maitland to London Irish

This loss is more keenly felt with DTH moving on too. Played second fiddle to Hogg at 15 and Seymour/DTH on the wings for much of this season and then got injured but just having a B&I Lion on the bench was a massive confidence booster for the difficult games. The guy is quality and did so much unseen link and defensive work. Has become fashionable to ridicule him for his actual lack of scoring tries but that's a pretty fundemental misunderstanding of what the player is about. His class will be missed mid-season. Peter Murchie is solid, but has never had Maitland's gas.

We are also sending Toonie subconscious vibes to let him realise that David Smith at Toulon is out of contract and would fill this gap nicely.

4. Dougie Hall - retiring

We have quality problems at hooker. Young Fraser Brown is the future but he needs mentoring and Hall, the quiet and effective 34 year old, 100 cap veteran provided it. It says a lot that Hall started the final. We need some international quality to replace him and it's difficult to see where that might come from. Pat MacArthur is a good club man but is relatively slight and his basics tend to go to c0ck under pressure. One injury away from a crisis is not a good position to be in.

5. Al Kellock - retiring / Tom Ryder to Northampton Saints

We also have strength in depth issues at lock. It's the worst kept secret in the league that Glasgow's captain was about 4th best in his position this season, but now that he is going and we have mysteriously let the large and quietly effective Ryder slip away, there is a genuine argument for an established international to steady the boiler room. A Muller is what we need. Who we got was Greg Peterson from the Tigers, who didn't really make an impact and who didn't really do that much. We are still hoping to tempt Richie Gray back to his home club to partner with his brother.

For balance, Townsend has hinted that more signings are to come. I sure hope so. If Edinburgh can sign the vice captain of the Hurricaines, then we should have some sort of purchase in the international market now too.

Not too concerned about Niko's moving myself, Glasgow showed yesterday they can play great rugby even without him.
As for DTH, this will be a blow, the boy is a legend, just watch how he saved the try on POC early in the 2nd half, not many wingers, if any, would have done that. It could have been a very different game at 21-17.

I forgot to mention it yesterday but Dougie Hall put one hell of a shift yesterday and showed that even in his last year before retirement he was still the best hooker at the club, a true Warriors legend.

You've got to wonder what will be going through the likes of DTH and John Welsh'a heads this morning - leaving a club on the up that is likely to be challenging for trophies every year, to join clubs that (with all due respect) most likely won't be.

They might not have been offered new deals, but if they choose to leave it really is a strange choice!

VinceWLB wrote:Not too concerned about Niko's moving myself, Glasgow showed yesterday they can play great rugby even without him.
As for DTH, this will be a blow, the boy is a legend, just watch how he saved the try on POC early in the 2nd half, not many wingers, if any, would have done that. It could have been a very different game at 21-17.

I forgot to mention it yesterday but Dougie Hall put one hell of a shift yesterday and showed that even in his last year before retirement he was still the best hooker at the club, a true Warriors legend.

He's far from a legend after that, Vince. I had O'Connell anytime try at 14/1 I near put the floor through in my flat when he tried to touch down.

RDW_Scotland wrote:You've got to wonder what will be going through the likes of DTH and John Welsh'a heads this morning - leaving a club on the up that is likely to be challenging for trophies every year, to join clubs that (with all due respect) most likely won't be.

They might not have been offered new deals, but if they choose to leave it really is a strange choice!

Maybe what's going through their head is thinking about the thickness of their wallet?

The Great Aukster wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:You've got to wonder what will be going through the likes of DTH and John Welsh'a heads this morning - leaving a club on the up that is likely to be challenging for trophies every year, to join clubs that (with all due respect) most likely won't be.

They might not have been offered new deals, but if they choose to leave it really is a strange choice!

Maybe what's going through their head is thinking about the thickness of their wallet?

True, but I'd be disappointed if Glasgow couldn't match the Scarlets or the Newcastle for financial clout!

First off, congrats to Glasgow.  Deserved winners.  It would be great if some of that would rub off on the Scotland team, no?

Was a strangely intriguing match.  I kept waiting for Munster to launch one of their patented comebacks.  But Glasgow kept them mostly under control.  The last ten minutes Glasgow were simply cruising.

Glasgow have been doing better than Scarlets and Newcastle for a number of seasons so they wouldn't have been under the illusion they were leaving to chase silver - so they must be leaving to chase gold?

123456789 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

123456789 wrote:I don't agree with the theory that Ulster are a better side than Glasgow when you consider the teams at full strength (just look at the Bath performance) but the truth is Glasgow and Scotland have had talented players and good performances in the past but have played poorly when it mattered. Glasgow's character and temperament has been class (in a way some of the more unsavoury aspects (just the dive incident really, not that I condone it at all) have been good in a sense that our players have often seemed naive against more  experienced Irish and Welsh sides) the last few weeks particularly. The moments that frustrate me more than ever when thinking about Scottish rugby is way our last two world cups have ended with Parks panicking against Argentina and Weir's long pass to Huget when we had them on the rack, Russell's try and pass in the last two weeks were magnificent.

Furthermore if you'd shown the team that started tonight to anyone at the start of the year they wouldn't have been considered title winners, especially without Dunbar and Bennett, but their resolve and bravery brought them over the line and you have to give credit to Townsend for that.

You do remember Ulster absolutely destroying Glasgow at Ravenhill? And we were missing players then. We weren't at our strongest facing Glasgow in the Semi, but then neither were Glasgow.

There's one fact that outshines all others - Glasgow are PRO12 champions, and deservedly so. They play a lovely brand of rugby, they have some real talented players, and a growing fan base. Long may it continue.

I'm not saying Ulster are a bad team, not for a second, nor am I saying Glasgow are streets ahead of Ulster but  if you look at results between the sides for the last 2-3 years we've been on top. And I mean no disrespect to Ulster when I say that this season I genuinely believe that Glasgow had the best team, the best squad and the best coach in the league and that's why we won. I respect the Ulster team above almost all others and have done since the way the team reacted to the Payne incident against Sarries and I don't particularly like aspects of how the semi was won or the reaction, and that's from both sides..

The results over the last few seasons don't really tell us much.

This season we beat you at home. You beat us away twice with Ulster throwing one of those games

- 2013/14 season. You beat us twice. You beat us at home by a one point margin in a game that Ulster were clearly the better side on the day. It happens.

- 2012/13 season. It was honours even with a win each.

- 2011/12 season. A win each.

- You also have to bear in mind that Ulster were competing on two fronts by targeting the Euro and the PRO12. Having said all that, past seasons results don't tell us anything about how well teams are playing currently.

Anyway, enough of 'mine is bigger than yours' from me  It's been a great season for Glasgow, and nobody can argue Glasgow didn't deserve to lift the trophy. It's been a great season for the PRO12 and even though I would have loved Ulster to win it, Glasgow winning is the PRO12 cherry on top.

We of course don't know what the long term plan here is - Glasgow are replacing DTH with the massive Fijian, and maybe they are signing a top tighthead prop from somewhere who also happens to be SQ...

Murray is leaving too, which makes it all the more strange that Welsh is going.

RDW_Scotland wrote:We of course don't know what the long term plan here is - Glasgow are replacing DTH with the massive Fijian, and maybe they are signing a top tighthead prop from somewhere who also happens to be SQ...

Murray is leaving too, which makes it all the more strange that Welsh is going.

Yes, that would be point 6 in my above post - we are losing our first choice and potentially second choice tightheads too.

Not to worry, it's not as though tightheads are difficult to come by or expensive to replace.

123456789 wrote:I'm not saying Ulster are a bad team, not for a second, nor am I saying Glasgow are streets ahead of Ulster but  if you look at results between the sides for the last 2-3 years we've been on top. And I mean no disrespect to Ulster when I say that this season I genuinely believe that Glasgow had the best team, the best squad and the best coach in the league and that's why we won. I respect the Ulster team above almost all others and have done since the way the team reacted to the Payne incident against Sarries and I don't particularly like aspects of how the semi was won or the reaction, and that's from both sides..

That's all very fair. I'm not saying Ulster are in any way a better team than Glasgow either, but neither do I think Glasgow are actually better than Ulster. The closeness of the semi-final reflects the closeness of the two teams when at full strength across the last season and I think you will see more extremely close games between the two sides in future seasons. The sick feeling in the pit of my stomach is because in that semi-final we had the game under our control and took our foot off the gas when we needed to press home our advantage. Glasgow played well to come back into the game but if we were more ruthless we could have taken it away from them before that happened. In other words, it was there for the taking and we didn't take it. Winners take those chances, ergo. Glasgow are winners. We are not. There's no valid argument that Glasgow do not deserve to win the trophy, but there's also no argument that the semi-final could have easily gone either way. Fine margins in the closest league season I can remember with very little between any of the top teams. Knowing the opportunity we had to beat Glasgow in the semi-final and seeing the way Munster played in the Final is a special kind of torture that will haunt me for a very long time... but my original post was only in response to GC asking me my thoughts on Glasgow, and my honest thoughts are it's very hard to watch a team you know you can beat- and certainly should have beaten in your last meeting- celebrating a title win in your own ground. I would not have brought any of this up if I was not answering a direct question.

Understood and the detailed answer was very much appreciated.

Where are Ulster going to find the extra 1%, Notch? Is it just experience that quite a young team needs or do you need to find NIQ strength in some positions?

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:We of course don't know what the long term plan here is - Glasgow are replacing DTH with the massive Fijian, and maybe they are signing a top tighthead prop from somewhere who also happens to be SQ...

Murray is leaving too, which makes it all the more strange that Welsh is going.

Yes, that would be point 6 in my above post - we are losing our first choice and potentially second choice tightheads too.

Not to worry, it's not as though tightheads are difficult to come by or expensive to replace.

I can see why they let Welsh go, we probably had one to many first choice TH's this year and it was proving a struggle to give them all enough game time to keep them happy and also to pay them what they deserved as international players. Next season we will still have Cussack and De Klerk (who now seems to be seen as first choice) as well as two very promising youngsters in Fargerson and Rae. They will both need game time to bring them on. We may or may not give Murray one more year, which I would imagine is all he will be looking for. That will hopefully cover the transition period for the kids to become experienced pros.

DTH is harder to work out. I don't think it is just about money because I am sure we could have offered what the Scarlets are. I would imagine it is more about succession planning. DTH is at the top of his game right now but where is he likely to be in a few years time. He has had a few nasty injuries already and is nearer the end of his career than the beginning. The last time he played in a WC we lost him for the rest of the season! Big Tacky has not come cheap, but he is younger and has signed a longer contract, there is still the possibility of him qualifying for Scotland as well.

Toonie does seem to be adopting the approach of the famous football manager from Govan, that you need to move players on before they are past their best and to consistently rebuild the team. Fans understandably struggle with that at times when they see their favourites leaving but we just need to trust Toonie for getting it right so far.

The only thing that really surprises me about the DTH move is not that he is leaving, but that he did not get signed by a bigger French or English club. Maybe they just don't watch the Pro 12 (and Glasgow's in particular) often enough!

Sin é wrote:

As for JJ Hanrahan. Munster offered him a 3 year contract and he turned it down for a 2 year contract with Northampton. Northing you can do about that.

Giving him game time would have been a good start.

The Great Aukster wrote:Glasgow have been doing better than Scarlets and Newcastle for a number of seasons so they wouldn't have been under the illusion they were leaving to chase silver - so they must be leaving to chase gold?

I've just read the Scarlets made a pre-tax loss of 1.6M!

Well next year we are going to have the same squad pretty much, bar a few reserves, but no-one we've signed looks like making the first choice team so when it comes to this time next year it'll be the same group of players. We can only hope that the experience of Les Kiss makes the extra difference to us, though he will be absent for the start of the season, because there isn't any scope to bring in anyone high profile on the playing side.

We should probably discuss this on the Ulster thread if we want to go into more detail, because honestly it would be a shame to dominate the thread talking about a team that wasn't in the Final, but I will say next season looks interesting. Munster are losing O'Connell, who is irreplaceable when it comes to the knockout stages. Leinster are gaining Sexton, which shouldn't make that big a difference to their league form but will be a massive boost to them if they get back into the playoffs- hard to call their season as their coaching situation is so up in the air but you wouldn't bet against this season being a blip long term given the resources they have. Ulster are staying the same but with a new Director of Rugby who should tighten things up in terms of our discipline and breakdown, the two achilles heels we've had. Ospreys I'm not sure about, but seem to be retaining all their best players and remain a threat. Glasgow have lost a number of very good players but have probably made the most eye-catching signing, though the losses in the pack would probably be of greater concern. It looks very hard to call. Could be any four of those five in any order in the table depending on injuries, form etc. and then every side looks capable of beating the other home or away.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Glasgow have been doing better than Scarlets and Newcastle for a number of seasons so they wouldn't have been under the illusion they were leaving to chase silver - so they must be leaving to chase gold?

I've just read the Scarlets made a pre-tax loss of 1.6M!

Doesn't make sense that you would want to leave Glasgow and go to Scarlets for rugby reasons though. Hard one to fathom.

Coaching. We fired our coach in the middle of last summer. Les Kiss, from the national set-up, was appointed, came down, had a look, had a hand in our tanking of Glasgow at home, then disappeared off to prepare  for the Autumn Internationals, and won't be back til after the RWC.

Personally, I had written this season off. Doak is no head coach. He's quite naive - his unwillingness to bring on subs at Scotstoun has already been flagged up by Weegie fans. Added to this, we went from being top of the Fairplay League to our discipline being a painful farce. Those are coaching issues. There are others. For example, we had a TH starting in Glasgow who hadn't even been third choice for much of the season, for reasons best known to Doak. All of a sudden Herbst is gone, and Lutton is in from - well, not so much the cold, as buried in an iceberg. With two games to his name all season, I think.

In the end, we started to play some nice rugby towards the end of the season, and I foolishly started to dream. But Kiss should seriously improve this team. Townsend has been phenomenal for you guys. Coaching is so important. Look at the difference between Cheika-, Schmidt- and O'Connor-era Leinster.

For Ulster, this has been a season of massive upheaval, red cards, individual brilliance and injuries. Next season, who knows? But Glasgow have set the standard, without a doubt.

sorry - that was in response to George asking where the 1% was coming from. Not just a massive waffle about Ulster's on Glasgow's day...

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Glasgow have been doing better than Scarlets and Newcastle for a number of seasons so they wouldn't have been under the illusion they were leaving to chase silver - so they must be leaving to chase gold?

I've just read the Scarlets made a pre-tax loss of 1.6M!

Yes, there's an interesting discussion about it over on their forum. Difficult to know what to make of it, other than they have been losing money for a while now. £6m written off in debt. I think they are banking on the Euro money to bail them out, but then they are also buying in the likes of DTH?
They did increase their number of employees during 2013, from 162 to 210. Strange for a club that's losing money.

Maybe things aren't as bad as being reported, but I do think  Scarlets need to issue a statement to explain how there can be a 153% increase on pre-tax losses.

Munchkin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Glasgow have been doing better than Scarlets and Newcastle for a number of seasons so they wouldn't have been under the illusion they were leaving to chase silver - so they must be leaving to chase gold?

I've just read the Scarlets made a pre-tax loss of 1.6M!

Yes, there's an interesting discussion about it over on their forum. Difficult to know what to make of it, other than they have been losing money for a while now. £6m written off in debt. I think they are banking on the Euro money to bail them out, but then they are also buying in the likes of DTH?
They did increase their number of employees during 2013, from 162 to 210. Strange for a club that's losing money.

Maybe things aren't as bad as being reported, but I do think  Scarlets need to issue a statement to explain how there can be a 153% increase on pre-tax losses.

What's even stranger is they made a loss of more than twice that of all the other 3 regions combined. Moving away from Stradey Park is proving to be a costly mistake.

By the way, how did it come across on TV as a final? The atmosphere was superb at the ground. Lots of noise, colour, banter.

Don Alfonso wrote:By the way, how did it come across on TV as a final? The atmosphere was superb at the ground. Lots of noise, colour, banter.

Sounded fantastic.

I loved the 'WE. ARE. WARRIORS.' chant to the 'ooh ahh cantona' - Glasgow may have found their SUFTUM and can imagine that ringing around Scotstoun!

Most clubs would be struggling to be much in the black, I would think?

Surely most of the loss is due to all the fannying about between the pro franchises and the Welsh union over money and everything else?

Don Alfonso wrote:By the way, how did it come across on TV as a final? The atmosphere was superb at the ground. Lots of noise, colour, banter.

Watched a replay in a pub last night. The upgraded Ravenhill always seems to look good on tv. Lots of shots of excited fans in their colours. But for some reason it didn't quite seem to catch the excitement of a Big Moment. Some of that impression might be due to having watched the Premiership final at Twickenham earlier - maybe the big buildings appear to televise better, especially at big events?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

As for JJ Hanrahan. Munster offered him a 3 year contract and he turned it down for a 2 year contract with Northampton. Northing you can do about that.

Giving him game time would have been a good start.

He would have got plenty of gametime - just not at 10 where he wants to play.

I'd say he was more worried about Tyler Bleyendaal than anything else.

I think this is a good move for JJ & Munster - he gets to play and developed at 10 at someone else's expense.

He didn't get plenty of game time though - anywhere.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He didn't get plenty of game time though - anywhere.

Played 26, started 11.

Ian Madigan
Played 22, Started 19.

Paddy Jackson
Played 17, Started 16.

Considering he is leaving (and decided in January) he hasn't done so bad. That was around the time Tyler arrived.

doctor_grey wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:By the way, how did it come across on TV as a final? The atmosphere was superb at the ground. Lots of noise, colour, banter.

Watched a replay in a pub last night.  The upgraded Ravenhill always seems to look good on tv.  Lots of shots of excited fans in their colours.  But for some reason it didn't quite seem to catch the excitement of a Big Moment.   Some of that impression might be due to having watched the Premiership final at Twickenham earlier - maybe the big buildings appear to televise better, especially at big events?  

There's no doubt that an 80000 sell out is in a different league event-wise to anything the Pro12 can do right now- unless maybe there was a Munster vs Leinster final in Dublin- but I've been to two Pro12 finals now in similar sized stadiums (RDS and Ravenhill) and I feel like there's much more a sense of event at those games in the ground (not necessarily on TV) than most test matches I've been too. The smaller grounds may lose out on prestige but the atmosphere in them is excellent. I definitely think at this stage in the development of the league grounds of around 18000 are the perfect size.

The final at the weekend did suffer a bit from the terrible weather and the fact Glasgow were in cruise control by the end because a lot of the neutral fans and some Munster began to drift out in that last ten minutes, lots of people went into the bars to watch the end of the game. It was very cold, wet and windy- a sure sign that Irish Summer is just around the corner!

Next year, I expect the Final will be in Glasgow (or Kilmarnock as the case may be). The momentum generated by this result and the anticipation of Glasgow reaching another Final should lead to high ticket sales throughout the season even before the playoff places are decided. Pro12 will be very happy that while some Ulster fans informally sold their tickets on to Munster and Glasgow fans, those who bought tickets hoping their team would be there still turned out in force and the ground was pretty much packed. Very little room on the terraces for latecomers. I think that Munster and Leinster may well both bid for the Final next year, but from a commercial standpoint and a marketing point of view it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity that exists while Glasgow are reigning champions. If they have a bad season a lot of that interest and momentum may evaporate; the league needs to strike while the iron is hot.

Yes, I agree that it should be a Glasgow final for the reasons that my colleague describes above. Any of Celtic Park, Hampden Park or Ibrox could do it - I think that the Ibrox pitch might be too short but apart from that, all of those places could host a great final.

We also promise not to double book it with a major golf tournament...

Did that just happen last night? I'm having to re-watch it to make sure!

Too much good play to put in one post, just unbelievable. Probably, scrap that, definitely the best, most complete performance from the Warriors I think I've ever seen. Magical.

all in all - a great end to the season and Glasgow's triumph yesterday another good sign that the Pro12 is growing and deepening in its appeal and quality.

Attendances have grown too for the most part, which is a positive sign.

Hopefully the increased competitiveness of the last two seasons continues to grow and other teams start to step up more. The GLUMO Big 5 need to have their heels nipped more regularly.

Connacht would be my most improved team this season and full credit to Pat Lam for what he's achieved despite signing the biggest flop star in Muliana. The Welsh regions in particular need to up their game and start really competing for places in the top 6. With the recent signatures that Treviso have made, they certainly seem intent on not just staying but competing - good signs from Italy.

If nothing else, it may put all the media blather about the abysmal London Welsh side joining the league to bed.

Onwards and upwards. Well done Glasgow, well done Scotland - you've done the Pro12 proud.

George Carlin wrote:Yes, I agree that it should be a Glasgow final for the reasons that my colleague describes above. Any of Celtic Park, Hampden Park or Ibrox could do it - I think that the Ibrox pitch might be too short but apart from that, all of those places could host a great final.

Hmm, see thats the downside. The size of the grounds. If you fill them it will be an amazing final, if you don't... well, a Scottish final is necessary for the league to grow. Ulster was a commercially safe choice to host the first one and that risk-free approach paid off for the league. Will they gamble on a larger stadium? Whatever happens, I hope the next Final is in Scotland. Don't rule out Murrayfield for a Scottish final either. No costs involved in hiring the ground.

Disgusting game actually.

Nige looking for his directions from the Glasgow captain through the whole game.

It proves that SRU have this Pro12 League in their pocket.  They control everything now.  The rest of us don't have a chance...........



Halleluiah!!!!  

Over to you Scots.  The baton of corruption passes to you guys.


BTW - Congratulations on the win - all you can ever ask to claim a title is to completely annihilate the opposition, which is what happened.  Munster just didn't have an answer for any of it.  As Paulie said, the Glasgow boys played two not so good games before yesterday but were too good to play a bad game a third time.  Thanks for the memories Paulie.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He didn't get plenty of game time though - anywhere.

Played 26, started 11.

Ian Madigan
Played 22, Started 19.

Paddy Jackson
Played 17, Started 16.

Considering he is leaving (and decided in January) he hasn't done so bad. That was around the time Tyler arrived.

Started 3 games at 10 which is his favourite position. Shocking management from Foley. Foley looks out of his depth as a head coach.

Those stats with Hanrahan don't take into account the injuries Jackson has had and the international absences Madigan has had. How many of those sub appearances have been five minute cameos as well?

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Yes, I agree that it should be a Glasgow final for the reasons that my colleague describes above. Any of Celtic Park, Hampden Park or Ibrox could do it - I think that the Ibrox pitch might be too short but apart from that, all of those places could host a great final.

Hmm, see thats the downside. The size of the grounds. If you fill them it will be an amazing final, if you don't... well, a Scottish final is necessary for the league to grow. Ulster was a commercially safe choice to host the first one and that risk-free approach paid off for the league. Will they gamble on a larger stadium? Whatever happens, I hope the next Final is in Scotland. Don't rule out Murrayfield for a Scottish final either. No costs involved in hiring the ground.

Give us a chance to fail, eh, Notch? I hear you but Weegies are sports fans and will watch anything.

I must have misheard you there for a moment. I must be wrong because I thought for one second you said that Edinburgh should have the final. That's *Edinburgh*. The pampered, tweed wearing, exfoliating, chinless, spoiled, organic grocery shopping effeminates from the East who are Not Very Good At Rugby. I mean, you couldn't have meant that. The final has to be held in a city where the fans will recognise great rugby when they see it. Holding it in Edinburgh is such a contradiction in terms that the space-time continium would wrap itself around its own neck and then eat its own feet.

That's really missing the point about who won yesterday.

I want Glasgow to have a chance to host the next Final and I think it's worth the gamble. But I do think it would be a gamble to take it to a larger stadium. What will need to happen is some very, very good marketing to make that work. I think that I will get tickets for the next final in advance if it's in Glasgow, Edinburgh or anywhere in Ireland. It's a great occasion regardless of the teams involved. I did spot some Italians and Welsh fans in the crowd yesterday which was good.

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