Ulster 2015/2016

First topic message reminder :

Thought i would give ol' GC a helping hand and try and get Ulster types looking inward at what has been a tricky season and looking forward to next season and how we should improve. Dont have time to put down all my own theories but will do so later. This thread is a matawalu free zone btw!

Yes.

Yes. Would have agreed with you until about February but now he's making me eat my words about him as an outside centre.

Notch wrote:Yes. Would have agreed with you until about February but now he's making me eat my words about him as an outside centre.

Me too.

Ulster have stated their goal as having two test class players for every position with a potential test player in development. Ulster don't have that now so why would they let current test players leave?

Payne is currently Ulster's most likely Test candidate in the backline and some think he should go to Leinster - seriously?
Ulster have 8 current Test backs - Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Pienaar, Gilroy, LMarshall, Olding, Jackson. Payne will be 30 this year, Bowe, Trimble and Pienaar are already past that milestone. If Ulster are to get better then they need more test class players rather than less.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Payne is currently Ulster's most likely Test candidate in the backline and some think he should go to Leinster - seriously?

Not what I said exactly. The question was regarding Ulster's arguably surplus of 3/4s. I don't necessarily think we do have a surplus but if we do I would see Marshall as the most expendable if he can't kick on, providing Olding can stay fit.

Cave can play either inside or outside and still has a lot to offer and McCloskey is a gem that we need to retain at all costs and help achieve his considerable potential. The writing is on the wall for Bowe as a top class winger too and might be his future lies at 13 after next season.

That is ignoring the young guys coming through and the arrival of Pitau.

With that considered would it be the end of the world if Payne went to D4 and left us a starting center partnership of Olding/Cave/McCloskey with an on form Marshall there too? I don't think it would, but obviously want Payne to stay.

I always had high hopes for Payne at 13 as he'd been a class act there for the Blues but thought those hopes had been dashed with his initial form there for Ulster. Thankfully he's proved we persevered with his desire for the outside centre berth. Should we let him go? Not a chance.

Pete330v2 wrote: Should we let him go? Not a chance.

He's the best option at the minute - by 2016/17 there is a fair chance McCloskey and Olding will be as good if not better - possibly Marshall too. I'm talking about when Pitau arrives and the hypothetical situation if we are to lose one of our centers elsewhere to get game time.

Anyone who would argue that losing McCloskey or Olding, or letting either ride the pines until Payne hangs up the boots, would be a better option than letting a 30+ Payne go to Leinster, I can't agree with.

It would be on par with Munster picking Hurley and letting Hanaran go imo.

Olding's a worry for me. His knee ligament problem is just the type that can end careers and I was told by a physio that healing an ACL injury the second is a longer and often not successful process. It would be gutting for the lad as he was brimming with potential as we all know. McCloskey, Ulster's very own Aurélien Rougerie has the same kind of potential and keeping a player like him is vital but he will see plenty of game time I am sure.
It's a shame that Dublin can ride roughshod over our best interests as to where Payne plays for us but they'll keep telling us it's for the greater good. Their dictating over Payne removes competition for the Ulster 13 shirt outside of international windows unfortunately so I can see your point Rodders.

Pete330v2 wrote:Olding's a worry for me. His knee ligament problem is just the type that can end careers and I was told by a physio that healing an ACL injury the second is a longer and often not successful process.

Yup me too - his and Marshalls fitness is a big caveat to everything I've just waffled on about. I'm very happy with Payne at 13 this season(and probably next), don't get me wrong but over the next 2-3 seasons I wouldn't be happy to see McCloskey and Olding especially become bit part players - that is the point and if it meant losing Payne I could live with it.

A few months ago I wouldn't have argued against Payne going to Leinster. In fact I would have supported it because of the disruption caused by him being shoe-horned into 13. He has since proved himself at 13, and with Cave playing well beside him at 12 I don't have as much to grumble about. That said I still maintain that Payne is a better 15 than 13, and I still maintain that Ulster had better shape, and provided more cutting power when Payne played at 15.

When Piatau arrives I think we will see him at 15 with the option to play him at centre should Payne fall of the pace. Payne isn't getting any younger, although he may well have a good couple of seasons in him yet. That said, we have our own young talent hopefully coming through and hopefully getting their chance to shine. That along with McCloskey, Olding and Marshall should mean we are not stuck for centre's for some time to come.

Could we do without Payne at 13? I think so, but I don't think we should let him go. He is doing a great job at 13, and a fantastic option at 15 if needed.

Munchkin wrote:That said I still maintain that Payne is a better 15 than 13, and I still maintain that Ulster had better shape, and provided more cutting power when Payne played at 15.

100%. It hasn't worked out badly, by any stretch, but this is exactly what I think.

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
Payne is currently Ulster's most likely Test candidate in the backline and some think he should go to Leinster - seriously?

Not what I said exactly. The question was regarding Ulster's arguably surplus of 3/4s. I don't necessarily think we do have a surplus but if we do I would see Marshall as the most expendable if he can't kick on, providing Olding can stay fit.

Cave can play either inside or outside and still has a lot to offer and McCloskey is a gem that we need to retain at all costs and help achieve his considerable potential. The writing is on the wall for Bowe as a top class winger too and might be his future lies at 13 after next season.

That is ignoring the young guys coming through and the arrival of Pitau.

With that considered would it be the end of the world if Payne went to D4 and left us a starting center partnership of Olding/Cave/McCloskey with an on form Marshall there too? I don't think it would, but obviously want Payne to stay.

Sorry Rodders - are you saying the Marshall is the most expendable or that Payne should go to keep him? I don't see why either has to go. If Marshall isn't getting games at 12 because he's not as good as players in front of him then he should be given the opportunity elsewhere. Ulster should start with the innate talent a player has and coach that player into a role in the team. I think that might be happening with Cave by default. He has neither the pace not the power to be a top class 13 but as was highlighted by BOD his defence was what really let him down from Test contention. I wouldn't get rid of Cave from the squad but in terms of what he brings to the team I think he is already behind Olding, McCloskey and Marshall for a centre spot.

Neither do I agree that there is a surfeit of 3/4s especially if some of them are in Test contention. Ulster have 28 games per year at least and should be planning on 30+. If there are 8 Tests in a normal season then a current test player will be playing say 17 games a season. The next player should also be Test standard in case the first one gets injured in the first game, but will still plan to be playing 17 games a season. Then there will be an additional four planned games to develop the next successor.

Why would the Ulster 13 shirt be a retirement plan for someone like Bowe if he can't play wing any more? Or indeed why would you keep Bowe at the expense of Payne who is two years younger?

Payne has done well enough at 13 for Ireland and lesser so for Ulster. Right now though he is the only 'Test class' outside centre Ulster have. He is also the only test class full back that Ulster have. That is 60 potential games per season (in those two positions) that Ulster only have one player of their stated required ability for, and Payne can only really play about 10 of them! That is a big deficit in terms of quality for Ulster, that Piutau can't fill on his own, although he will (injury permitting) ideally play around 25 of them.

So who makes up the other 25 game deficit? That is where players and coaches can show their versatility. Ulster need to be looking at New Zealand for guidance, by picking the most talented players and coaching them into positions that the team needs. I know Ulster are already doing this with the junior players they have on programmes and are careful not to pigeonhole players too soon, but they also need to do it at senior level.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Sorry Rodders - are you saying the Marshall is the most expendable or that Payne should go to keep him? I don't see why either has to go. If Marshall isn't getting games at 12 because he's not as good as players in front of him then he should be given the opportunity elsewhere.

I am saying as it stands Marshall is the most expendable yes. But if he could consistently find his best rugby and stay fit over the next few seasons and challenge Olding and McCloskey for a first team spot then I would be willing to part with Payne.

I don't want to see anyone leave and believe we need the depth to compete in Europe and the league and that's with injuries and call ups we need strong panel.

That said if it came to a point were we risked losing someone like McCloskey I would rather lose Payne.

I take the point on Cave but think he's knuckled down and made a good fist of the 12 position and is a decent foil for the others - I think by the end of next year we'll have gotten the best years out of Payne, whereas Cave has another few seasons in him.

I think we now have to consider Cave as another 12 (mad isn't it) because the selections this past season indicate that's how he is now seen.

So, RWC aside, assuming Payne is nailed on at 13 for big games, we will have Cave, McCloskey, Olding, Marshall fighting it out for 12.

That's a bit much is it not? I mean the reality is one of the four will start, the other will bench, and we could see two of the four sitting at home on a Friday night.

Yes, there are a lot of ifs and buts. Potential long term injury concerns. And yes theres the liklihood of injuries through the season (like the season we just had).

But what if Les decides McCloskey is a nailed on 12 alongside 13. Injury free season.

I just don't see any of these centres being content to start less than 10 games in the season.

And we havn't even mentioned Arnold, who (polishing my crystal ball here) might be as good as any, but unlikely to get a chance unless we face an unprecedented injury crisis. If journos were bigging you up in international representative games, and you were behind 4 other players for the 12 shirt, would you stick around?

Not a chance.

Cave would be our 13 when Payne is away, Clive. McCloskey might also be an option there, although there is a chance McCloskey could get called up for Ireland.

Pete330v2 wrote:Olding's a worry for me. His knee ligament problem is just the type that can end careers and I was told by a physio that healing an ACL injury the second is a longer and often not successful process. It would be gutting for the lad as he was brimming with potential as we all know. McCloskey, Ulster's very own Aurélien Rougerie has the same kind of potential and keeping a player like him is vital but he will see plenty of game time I am sure.
It's a shame that Dublin can ride roughshod over our best interests as to where Payne plays for us but they'll keep telling us it's for the greater good. Their dictating over Payne removes competition for the Ulster 13 shirt outside of international windows unfortunately so I can see your point Rodders.

If that was happening then don't you think Henderson would be playing in the 2nd row and Madigan at Leinster would be playing 10.There is no way that Payne to 13 was a decision made in Dublin,it doesn't make any sense when you look at the other examples where the same reasoning would apply.

McCloskey looks really good,I would love to see him and Henshaw together at some stage,the pace,power and footwork from both of them would give defenses nightmares.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
McCloskey looks really good,I would love to see him and Henshaw together at some stage,the pace,power and footwork from both of them would give defenses nightmares.

Yup - both very skillful too. Henshaw is one of the best passers around and McCloskey a great offloader.

I would love it, love it, if we got to see the two of them together in the warm-ups. I'm heading to Ireland vs Scotland and it would make my day to see the two of them in harness. I've been banging the McCloskey for Ireland drum for a while now but seriously, how many genuine ball carriers who are able to offload out of contact do we have in the entire Ireland squad? Not just the back line- in the entire squad. Not too many.

I don't see the first choice centres changing because Payne is also strong in contact and has good hands. But we have no other like for like replacement for either player. McCloskey, come on down.

I don't think Cave is going to be considered as a 12 when Payne is away Clive. He'll only be moved from 13 if Payne is starting there.

Notch wrote:I would love it, love it, if we got to see the two of them together in the warm-ups. I'm heading to Ireland vs Scotland and it would make my day to see the two of them in harness. I've been banging the McCloskey for Ireland drum for a while now but seriously, how many genuine ball carriers who are able to offload out of contact do we have in the entire Ireland squad? Not just the back line- in the entire squad. Not too many.

I don't see the first choice centres changing because Payne is also strong in contact and has good hands. But we have no other like for like replacement for either player. McCloskey, come on down.

The question is, will Joe want much offloading? It's been fairly think on the ground until now. And we know Joe values experience - a McCloskey/Henshaw partnership could barely be any greener.

Lads.... I said 'RWC aside'.

This whole topic is a spin off from the attention given to Arnold after his U20 performance.

We are talking about the second half of next season and after. A period of time when a 21 year old talent might be looking to ramp up his career.

So, my point stands. For big games - Les may feel that McCloskey* and payne are nailed on first teamers - playing as many games as he is allowed to.

My point is this - will Olding/Marshall/Cave be content with a handful of starts in a season? And Arnold with possibly zero?

Would you hang around banking on an injury crisis?


*Substitute with whoever you believe is the best 12

Cave will still get a lot of games. He will play 13 when Payne is with Ireland, or rested on orders. That's a lot of games at 13. With Payne available to play with Ulster then Cave will either slot into 12 or at least fight for a starting place from the bench.

When you think of the call-ups, suspensions and injuries we have had this season, it hasn't been so much a case of players being pushed out. If players do feel they would be better served moving on, then I guess that's what they should do. As long as Ulster retain a healthy balance of experienced centres while blooding new prospects.

Can anyone tell me - what is the typical number of games for our internationals to miss per season (non world cup season)?

clivemcl wrote:Lads.... I said 'RWC aside'.

This whole topic is a spin off from the attention given to Arnold after his U20 performance.

We are talking about the second half of next season and after. A period of time when a 21 year old talent might be looking to ramp up his career.

So, my point stands. For big games - Les may feel that McCloskey* and payne are nailed on first teamers - playing as many games as he is allowed to.

My point is this - will Olding/Marshall/Cave be content with a handful of starts in a season? And Arnold with possibly zero?

Would you hang around banking on an injury crisis?


*Substitute with whoever you believe is the best 12

I agree with you, but Payne will be away for large portions of the coming seasons that have nothing to do with the RWC and thats what I was talking about. Week in, week out I still see Cave spending much more time at 13 than 12. He's been keeping McCloskey on the bench and Marshall out of the team but it won't be long before that changes. Still, he'll get plenty of game time at 13.

The centre I think will miss out and maybe move on is Luke Marshall which is a real shame. Olding has more better game awareness, better footwork and is more creative. McCloskey is faster, stronger, more agile it seems at times and has a better offloading game. For me the only area where Marshall surpasses either of them is kicking, Marshall has a howitzer of a boot and it's reliable too. He would be well advised to move to Munster or Leinster.

Right now though, Ulster have to hold on to every centre they have because of the questions over Luke Marshall's concussions and Stuart Oldings knee. We are talking about an embarrassment of riches at 12 but we're two bad medical prognoses away from having a big problem with depth there instead.

clivemcl wrote:Can anyone tell me - what is the typical number of games for our internationals to miss per season (non world cup season)?

A front-line international may start as few as 8, 9, 10 out 22 regular season league games.

We love chatting about all our lovely centres, but the actual issues are backrow and halfbacks.

If Browne is a decent-good six and Willie recovers, I'd be happy to see Diack play a bit at eight again, over Williams.

Can Browne carry at all, does anyone know?

And I wonder if Olding will start to cover ten once he's back in health. He'd played there this season for the Ravens and the senior side, I think?

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Lads.... I said 'RWC aside'.

This whole topic is a spin off from the attention given to Arnold after his U20 performance.

We are talking about the second half of next season and after. A period of time when a 21 year old talent might be looking to ramp up his career.

So, my point stands. For big games - Les may feel that McCloskey* and payne are nailed on first teamers - playing as many games as he is allowed to.

My point is this - will Olding/Marshall/Cave be content with a handful of starts in a season? And Arnold with possibly zero?

Would you hang around banking on an injury crisis?


*Substitute with whoever you believe is the best 12

I agree with you, but Payne will be away for large portions of the coming seasons that have nothing to do with the RWC and thats what I was talking about. Week in, week out I still see Cave spending much more time at 13 than 12. He's been keeping McCloskey on the bench and Marshall out of the team but it won't be long before that changes. Still, he'll get plenty of game time at 13.

The centre I think will miss out and maybe move on is Luke Marshall which is a real shame. Olding has more better game awareness, better footwork and is more creative. McCloskey is faster, stronger, more agile it seems at times and has a better offloading game. For me the only area where Marshall surpasses either of them is kicking, Marshall has a howitzer of a boot and it's reliable too. He would be well advised to move to Munster or Leinster.

Right now though, Ulster have to hold on to every centre they have because of the questions over Luke Marshall's concussions and Stuart Oldings knee. We are talking about an embarrassment of riches at 12 but we're two bad medical prognoses away from having a big problem with depth there instead.

We all like to hype up our own players but I'm not seeing this "embarrassment of riches" everyone else is. Ulster have Payne who is a good test class but not an exceptional 13 in International terms. Behind him they have two young but injury prone international-class centres in Olding and Marshall. McCloskey is big and has got bags of potential but he is unproven at the highest level. I agree that Cave has had a good end to his season at 12 but he still misses too many tackles for my liking and lacks an edge in attack. He should be a far stronger leadership influence on the team than he has been and wouldn't be a starter barring injuries - Geoff indicated that this is in accord with his recent contract.

I'm not sure how many saw Arnold against Argentina, but he was solid rather than spectacular, but still lost the ball in contact a couple of times. Ringrose is undoubtedly the star of that team and maybe part of that's down to SA, but Sam was actually far more impressive in the end of season Glasgow match. He has played wing, 12 and 13 and the management may continue to move him around. Stockdale has played most of his rugby at 13 and 15, yet for Ireland he was a late call up on the wing. These young players need to be able to move around to where the team needs them.
It is nonsense labelling someone as say "a 12" when the team needs them elsewhere. We have seen how Payne plays 13 and 15, and Piutau has played across the backline. It is no coincidence that a modern gameplan requires players to be interchangeable, which requires a range of skills that the old set-piece orientated type of rugby didn't. Ulster should not paradigm people into positions.

Marshall was a very promising flyhalf before Anscombe tried to shape him exclusively into a crash ball 12. There is no reason why he shouldn't be better than Humphreys at 10 and so get plenty of gametime there if he finds the 12 shirt occupied.

Don Alfonso wrote:We love chatting about all our lovely centres, but the actual issues are backrow and halfbacks.

If Browne is a decent-good six and Willie recovers, I'd be happy to see Diack play a bit at eight again, over Williams.

Can Browne carry at all, does anyone know?

And I wonder if Olding will start to cover ten once he's back in health. He'd played there this season for the Ravens and the senior side, I think?

I agree that backrow is a major issue especially 8 where Ulster don't have one player of the required quality never mind two. Brown played 8 as much as 6 so maybe he is an option there, but I don't expect him to be anywhere near the class that Ulster need. This position is increasingly a key element in the spine of the team and for Ulster to persevere with an ageing Wilson and a flakey Williams is daft. I like Diack as a player but I actually think that 8 is possibly his weakest of the three backrow slots. This is because (like Wilson) he isn't a powerful carrier. That position more than any other requires the 8 to provide a threat from the base - it's why I like Henderson playing there. I want Hendo to get the ball in his hands as much as possible because he is a great player and so should see a lot of the ball. Stopping the drift defence at source is something Ulster have badly missed. For some reason others don't see the wisdom of putting the best carrier in the most influential carrying position so I don't expect to see Henderson there for another couple of years.

Not sure I agree that Cave should be a better leader. You are either a leader or you're not. Cave has been tried there and he isn't a leader. Not his fault. Best is a leader, but not of the standard of Muller. Wilson is chosen as captain, and although he is ahead of Cave in leadership qualities, he is behind Best. I believe Henry and Van der Merwe could well be the most capable leaders in the squad. Van der Merwe in particular. Hopefully it's a role that he continues to grow into with Ulster over the next season.

Munchkin - you're obviously in the 'leaders are born not made' school, I'm not. Leadership is not solely about motivation that comes so naturally to some and not others. Junior players naturally look to the experience of their elders to help and guide them in the heat of battle. Darren has been around long enough to know what is happening in a game and is perfectly capable of contributing to the on-field decision making. I see that as a responsibility of his as a senior player irrespective of how good he is at it. I don't see him trying to take that responsibility but is rather content to let other's do it. I think Doak made him captain not just because he was the most experienced candidate but also because he should be performing that function regularly (if unofficially) in every game. My point is that if Cave offered that leadership he would be a much stronger candidate for a starting place, because it is lacking elsewhere.

I think Henry is a natural leader and the closest to a captain in the team. Best is a leader by example rather than analysis. Ulster need someone to see the game and take control in the match circumstances. The trouble is they need someone who is also available for most of the season and that rules the most likely candiates out. Maybe Franco can do it but he didn't strike me as a great student of the game?

I formed my impression of Van der Merwe as a leader by watching him, and how players react to him, over a few games prior to his coming to Ulster. He really did have the respect of those players. I remember one particular game he was defending the try line, and commanding the players to shift position to the left along the line. He did this by raising his hands and clapping them together I know it sounds strange, but once he did this they moved as one. I think he has what it takes, and would like to see him get more involved. I agree on Henry. Along with Van der Merwe I think he would make a great captain given time. Not all leaders need to be captain, although Van der Merwe was captain of the Lions before picking up an injury which ruled him out for most of his last season. He is well thought of as a person and as a leader, and an intelligent leader:

Johannesburg - The Lions will be looking to give stalwart lock Franco van der Merwe a memorable send-off in their final match of the Super Rugby season against the Cheetahs in Johannesburg on Saturday.

Van der Merwe will run out in his 99th Super Rugby match for the Johannesburg franchise before joining Irish club Ulster.

In Van der Merwe the Lions will be losing their most experienced player and a crucial member of their brain trust.

"Franco will be missed -- most of us will miss him for what he's done on the field. He always put in a 100 percent," Ackermann said of the Springbok lock.

"Even more off the field -- the character that he is, he is a leader first of all then he is a fun guy to be with.

"He represents the players on all levels ... it is a loss for us but we understand why he is leaving."

In Henry I agree he is a natural leader, and someone who may well excel in the role of captain given time. I don't know who I would pick between him and Van der Merwe. I would like to see Van der Merwe in the role of captain first. As stated, and as you say, not all leaders need to be captain, and those that can lead across the field should lead.
I appreciate not all leaders are 'born leaders'. Cave isn't a born leader, and maybe he is not suited to leading outside of that. Could he be doing more as an experienced player? I don't know, and I don't know because I don't how that may impact his game. As you say, Best is a leader by example, and perhaps the most we can expect from Cave is that he leads by example. I think he does.

Franco doesn't strike you as a great student of the game? I suspect he's forgotten more about line outs than any of us ever knew. Best is a leader by example as you say, but Franco strikes me as one of the few cool heads in the pack (along with Henry). In a season of terrible indiscipline, he's rarely been on the wrong side of the referee (compare and contrast with Williams, N and Stevenson, L) He also strikes me as a guy who could be given a larger leadership role. He's not Muller who was completely comfortable just coming in and taking command but I'd like to see him take on the Captaincy for the pre-season friendlies when all the Irish guys are away and work from there.

Paddy Jackson also strikes me as a leader who needs to be encouraged to take a larger role, and certainly the best on-pitch tactical thinker in the squad.

Now you mention it, Notch, I can't think why I didn't mention Jackson. I agree, I think he will be an excellent leader over time. He does lead, even though how he leads is generally missed. He himself has stated how he talks to the players, giving them their orders, and how he contrasts with Pienaar in that Pienaar goes about his business quietly. I think maybe because he is still young compared to many of those around him, and because he has those angelic looks, people tend to miss that Jackson is made of tough stuff, and getting tougher. His approach, his mindset, to games has altered, and altered in the way that gives him a stronger mental edge throughout games than he has known previously, and which, in turn, allows a more consistent game. I can definitely see Jackson as a very able leader, and given his tactical knowledge you speak of, a major asset. Not that he isn't a major asset now. Just more so. When the chips are down, and players need leaders to lead.

Look I've only met Franco once, and he strikes me as someone who knows his own game inside out, is exceptionally disciplined, and someone you could trust 100%. He didn't strike me as someone who would presume to tell a centre about his alignment or where a flyhalf should be kicking the ball.
The Captain needs to be able to tell a scrumhalf about what he should be doing as a scrumhalf and then get him to do it. It's not an easy role and requires an exceptional person to do that and maintain his own game as well.

Paddy Jackson is undoubtedly a student of the game and always has been, but is both still young and likely to be away a lot. Consistency in the team needs consistency in leadership. When Best, Tuohy, Henry, Pienaar and Jackson are away the team need some continuity.

Maybe Franco is the only candidate but he needs help.

I think all captains need the support of experienced leaders on the field. Especially so when their backs are against the wall.
What Van der Merwe needs is to be given a chance over a few games. It's a role he is familiar with, but Ulster is relatively new to him, and it may take a little time to adjust.
I wasn't suggesting Jackson take over the captaincy. It's too early for that. Just that I think he has that potential to make a great leader/captain sometime in the future.
Pienaar, special talent that he is, isn't a leader, but his presence on the field is a reassurance. If not so much for the players, then at least for me

Munchkin - I keep thinking back to Rory Best's remarks after the Toulon defeat at the Pan. He said "They have good players who make smart decisions, and it makes them hard to break down". There was an element of resignation in his tone that suggested Ulster didn't have that level of decision making in the side. The players that Toulon have bought in are proven experienced decision makers. Wilkinson was the chief architect, but Giteau is a seriously smart player who can see what's happening in front of him. Throw in guys like Halfpenny and Habana in the backs and F-Lobbe and Masoe in the forwards (+ Hayman etc.) and there is a serious amount of influence into the brains trust. POC would fit right in!

Ulster seem to me to be disproportionately deficient in leadership in the backs - Jackson excepted.

So Ulster can look forward to another battle with Saracens, Toulouse and Pedrie Wannenberg coming back wth Oyonnax in next seasons Champions Cup.

Going to be a tight group

Fook sake.

It could have been worse, at least we get to exact revenge on Saracens with a full side unless they pay off the ref again

We've got the top 14 and AP champions, hard to get much worse....

Group 5 is terrible though - lucky we avoided that.

Top 14 champions?

Oops thought we had stade francais.... Toulouse is better I suppose ....

See Rodders, not so bad after all
We can take Toulouse as history will tell and we're not afraid of Saracens. It's all good

Looks good I can see us winning the thing now

I'm happy enough with the group in terms of difficulty, but how much more craic would it be to welcome Clermont, Stade Francais or Bath to Ravenhill instead of Saracens?

We have to top this group. The sheer pleasure of putting Saracens out before the KO stages would be extraordinary.

A chance to put Saracens out? Count me in to that one.

All I ever ask is for Ashton to drop the ball whilst doing his ever so popular swan dive. The very thought of that excites me more than is becoming of a man of my vintage.

I'm really looking forward to Saracens visit, which probably won't be until January. The away trip in October is another matter.