Rugby's most (in)valuable players

by LordDowlais Wed 10 Jun - 13:02

This is an interesting read,with 100 days to go until the World Cup starts,Planet Rugby have compiled a list of the players whose value to their team cannot be calculated. Do you agree with this ?

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_54494,00.html

Full text of the article is here:

It's easy to compile a list of Rugby's top salary earners, but the value of some players simply cannot be calculated.

Dan Carter's salary at Racing Métro after the World Cup might bring you to tears but, unlike in previous years, there won't be much crying in New Zealand if he is absent from the All Blacks squad.

Rugby is a team game but there are certain players in the world that play such a vital role for their side that losing them would have almost catastrophic consequences.

Here are the players we reckon could play the most important roles at the 2015 World Cup and whose absences would be most keenly felt if they were missing.

Dane Coles: It might be odd to say a player with only 28 caps is New Zealand's most important player but with depth in the hooker position not as healthy as Steve Hansen would like, Coles is vital to the All Black cause. Keven Mealamu holds the experience and has been used sparingly by the Blues while Hika Elliot is probably third in line at the moment, but outside of that and there's a lack of Test class. Coles must remain fit.

Julian Savea: Keeping this Hurricane injury-free and in the consistent form he has shown for both franchise and country since his debut is going to be vital to New Zealand. Many a full-back has been bumped off as a final attempted tackler and with more games under his belt, Savea has even developed a strong kicking game and cleverness with offloads. Yes, the All Blacks have options at wing but this 24-year-old is another level up.

Leigh Halfpenny: Wales have other options at full-back - like Liam Williams and James Hook - but Halfpenny is the world's best from the kicking tee and his accuracy has proved invaluable for Warren Gatland's team. With a style of play that looks to force errors more than create chances out wide, Halfpenny's ability to keep the scoreboard ticking - especially from long range - is key to their chances of success.

Samson Lee: Arguably Wales' only international class tighthead, Lee is currently recovering from a torn Achilles. More than anyone else in this list, we'll be able to see how valuable Lee is, because he seems a long shot to be fit for September. The replacement for Adam Jones, the 22-year-old looks comfortable at Test level, whereas potential replacements Aaron Jarvis and the uncapped Tomas Francis have yet to prove their worth. Without Lee, Wales could really struggle at scrum-time against England and even Australia might get the upper hand against them.

Sergio Parisse: It's no secret that Parisse is an indispensable player in the Azzurri squad. A real leader of men who at times has carried his team, the 31-year-old Stade Français veteran could be set for his last World Cup so he will want to go out with a bang. Italy rely so heavily on their skipper, his retirement one day will be a major setback.

Duane Vermeulen: 'Thor' has been outstanding for the Springboks over the past twelve months. The Stormers number eight has unrivalled physicality and is arguably one part of the strongest back-row options any international coach has heading into the World Cup. However, while the Boks have plenty of flankers, no other number eight offers Heyneke Meyer the kind of ball-carrying ability that has made Vermeulen one of the best players in the world. There's a reason Springbok fans were so concerned at his recent neck injury.

Willie le Roux: South Africa's coaching staff will be praying that the Cheetahs speedster will make it to England in top shape because without him, the Springbok attack is blunt and predictable. There are a few youngsters coming through the Super Rugby ranks - like Jesse Kriel - that are exciting prospects but none of have any real international experience, meaning Pat Lambie is set to be the Boks' back-up 15.

Jonathan Sexton: Ireland simply are not the same side without Sexton at 10. His decision making and ability to control the game make him one of the best pivots in the world. Without a clear second-choice in the fly-half berth, Ireland will be banking on Sexton to direct traffic in the big games in October.

Paul O'Connell: We've run out of words to describe this Irish stalwart over the past two or three seasons. At 35 and nearing the end of his Test career, O'Connell is not showing his years and continues to be a colossus for both Munster and Ireland. If he is leading by example and others also step up to the plate, Joe Schmidt's outfit can seriously challenge for this World Cup crown. After that they can worry about replacing him.

Jonathan Joseph: Would this outside centre have made our list before the news that Manu Tuilagi would miss the World Cup? Maybe not but right now, England are low on experience as his back-up. Elliot Daly has impressed for Wasps while the option of shifting Brad Barritt out a position is not something new for Stuart Lancaster, but to unlock defences the tournament hosts need Joseph starting and in his recent fine form.

Tom Youngs: Probably second choice when England named their 50-man preliminary squad, Youngs is now nailed on as a starter at hooker for the Red Rose. The absence of Dylan Hartley through suspension means the pressure is really on Youngs. While his line-out throwing is occasionally wobbly, he'll need to step up, because those behind him in the pecking order are either novices at Test level - Luke Cowan-Dickie and Jamie George - or out of form and second choice at their club in the case of Rob Webber.

Israel Folau: While the Waratahs full-back has not had anywhere near the blistering try-scoring form of 2014 this year, his numbers with ball in hand are still impressive. Unbeatable in the air under the high ball and dynamic with his carries, Australia don't have a great deal of strength and consistency as his back-up. There are a few options available to 15 for Michael Cheika - including James O'Connor - but he is not a specialist and doesn't offer the same counter-attacking threat as Folau.

Kurtley Beale: We're breaking our own rules by including Beale here because Australia have world-class players in all of the positions he can fill. But he is worth a mention because he is one of those rare players who can perform at Test level at just about anywhere in the backline. Versatility is invaluable in World Cup squads where restricted numbers mean that a player like Beale can open up places for specialists elsewhere.

Louis Picamoles: Philippe Saint-André would probably disagree with us, but it wouldn't be the first time we've failed to see eye-to-eye with the France head coach. In top form, Picamoles is a game changer and France don't have another ball carrier of his strength. Illness and injury meant that his power at the base was sorely missed during the Six Nations. He's struggled to reach his previous heights this year, but with the Toulouse man at his best, France are a different beast. If Picamoles can start offloading more and getting those around him involved, he will return to being one of the game's best eights and solve arguably France's biggest problem up front.

Thierry Dusautoir: Four years on from being named World Player of the Year and almost carrying France to a World Cup title, there's a chance Dusautoir will be the only survivor from France's starting team at Eden Park. While les Bleus' skipper has lost a step he remains a ferocious presence in defence and the real leader of the French team. He showed his selfless side during the Six Nations by adapting his game and taking on a more offensive role to accommodate Bernard le Roux and his experience will be vital to France's chances once more.

Nemani Nadolo: Fiji have lots of wingers so Nadolo will likely play at 12 for them. They are short of top quality midfielders and the Crusaders star has an incredible recent scoring record. Nadolo has 14 tries in his last 14 starts at Test level, and even took over kicking duties in last year's November Tour. In the group of death, the likes of George Ford, Dan Biggar and Bernard Foley won't fancy seeing Nadolo coming down their channel.

Agustin Creevy: Hooker seems to be a popular position in this list, and we could even have added in Stephen Moore for the Wallabies. Unlike other countries where lack of depth saw the hooker get the nod, Creevy is included here for his leadership skills. Somewhat of a surprise selection as Pumas skipper, Creevy marshals his troops in a way few can on the international stage. Last year's win over France in Paris was proof of what he brings to his team, and it's difficult to see them getting very far without him in charge.

Finn Russell: It seems crazy that a 22-year-old with less than a year's Test experience can crack this list, but the in-form Russell will be crucial to Scotland's chances. As he's shown for Glasgow this season, Russell's crisp passing game is vital for a team that want to play with ambition. His back-up for both club and country, Duncan Weir, offers a completely different skill-set and would force Vern Cotter to overhaul his game plan if Russell were absent.

by Guest Wed 10 Jun - 13:12

Surprised Aaron Smith doesn't get a mention, hes key to the way the All Blacks play

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 15:10

Not a great list.

No Chris Robshaw

No Sam Warburton

No AWJ

No Hogg

No Jonny Gray

Yet the two representatives from Wales and Scotland are two of their most overrated players IMO?

Samson Lee? Really?

Was not impressed with him in the 6 nations.

Finn Russell? Seriously? One of the flakiest fly halves in the 6 nations. Only the Italian one was worse IMO.

Jonathan Joseph had a great 6 nations but so did Burrell at 13 last season.
Even Barritt at 13 has had highlights like beating Ireland away, Scotland and Australia at home.

Joseph is replaceable.

Jonny Gray and Stuart Hogg are Scotland's most invaluable players.

Irish representatives are good.

Most valuable french back is probably Wesley Fofana.

Read is arguably the most important AB IMO.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Jun - 15:17

Anyone for England is probably replaceable to be fair if looking at the national team.

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 15:21

no 7 & 1/2 I wouldn't say that Robshaw is easily replaceable.

Everyone else is to a certain degree.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Jun - 15:23

Wood to 7 and any number of 6s. Or Kvesic. Even bring back old Steffon from exile. We have got stacks of options.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 10 Jun - 15:27

beshocked wrote:Not a great list.

No Chris Robshaw

No Sam Warburton

No AWJ

No Hogg

No Jonny Gray

Yet the two representatives from Wales and Scotland are two of their most overrated players IMO?

Samson Lee? Really?

Was not impressed with him in the 6 nations.

Finn Russell? Seriously? One of the flakiest fly halves in the 6 nations. Only the Italian one was worse IMO.

Jonathan Joseph had a great 6 nations but so did Burrell at 13 last season.
Even Barritt at 13 has had highlights like beating Ireland away, Scotland and Australia at home.

Joseph is replaceable.

Jonny Gray and Stuart Hogg are Scotland's most invaluable players.

Irish representatives are good.

Most valuable french back is probably Wesley Fofana.

Read is arguably the most important AB IMO.

Wow. I'm fairly sure you haven't seen the pro 12 play offs. Finn Russel was man of the match against Ulster.

Russel's importance isn't just that he is the best 10 we have had for probably 15 years, it's more to do with the fact that behind him we have no one else even remotely at an acceptable international standard.

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Jun - 15:32

beshocked wrote:Not a great list.

No Chris Robshaw

No Sam Warburton

No AWJ

No Hogg

No Jonny Gray

Yet the two representatives from Wales and Scotland are two of their most overrated players IMO?

Samson Lee? Really?

Was not impressed with him in the 6 nations.

Finn Russell? Seriously? One of the flakiest fly halves in the 6 nations. Only the Italian one was worse IMO.

Jonathan Joseph had a great 6 nations but so did Burrell at 13 last season.
Even Barritt at 13 has had highlights like beating Ireland away, Scotland and Australia at home.

Joseph is replaceable.

Jonny Gray and Stuart Hogg are Scotland's most invaluable players.

Irish representatives are good.

Most valuable french back is probably Wesley Fofana.

Read is arguably the most important AB IMO.

If you ask any Scottish Rugby fan (or anyone who knows anything about Scottish players), they will completely agree with the caption written about FR:

"Finn Russell: It seems crazy that a 22-year-old with less than a year's Test experience can crack this list, but the in-form Russell will be crucial to Scotland's chances. As he's shown for Glasgow this season, Russell's crisp passing game is vital for a team that want to play with ambition. His back-up for both club and country, Duncan Weir, offers a completely different skill-set and would force Vern Cotter to overhaul his game plan if Russell were absent."

Yes, JG and Hogg are huge players for Scotland but for years we've suffered with mediocre FH's who don't have the all round game that FR has. He'll learn from the 6N and be ready for the WC. Just watch his performances in the PRO12 semi and final especially the game against Ulster. He has undoubted potential and the proof of Scotland missing him was after having two good games against France and Wales, Scotland's backs went to sh!t against Italy and England when he was ridiculously banned.

I'd also argue that if fit, Alex Dunbar is also instrumental to Scotland's chances.

by Poorfour Wed 10 Jun - 15:39

The point about Samson Lee is that, absent Adam Jones, the drop from him to the next Welsh TH is huge. If he's injured, even Australia might give then grief in the scrum.

Not sure about North, though. he's big and fast, but I don;t think he's irreplaceable.

England have shown that they can replace most players and still end up with a competitive squad. I would agree that Youngs is hard to replace - but in extremis Hartley can be recalled as long as Youngs makes it through the first game. There aren't like for like replacements for Robshaw and Joseph, but there are options.

Probably the hardest player for England to replace is Brown - Goode, Watson and Nowell are all options but none of them offers quite the solidity that he does at the back.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Jun - 15:44

RugbyWorld wrote:Leigh Halfpenny: Wales have other options at full-back - like Liam Williams and James Hook - but Halfpenny is the world's best from the kicking tee and his accuracy has proved invaluable for Warren Gatland's team. With a style of play that looks to force errors more than create chances out wide, Halfpenny's ability to keep the scoreboard ticking - especially from long range - is key to their chances of success.

The list has Halfpenny down as irreplaceable, but to be honest I think he is one of the players that hampers Wales. We are so determined to have him in the side, and so careful to ensure he doesn't get knocked that we don't use him the way we should. Of late, Wales seem to play far better rugby when Halfpenny is not on the pitch, and we are not looking for him to slot the winning three pointer for us.

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 15:46

ruggerradge I said in the 6 nations. I am sure you will tell me he did admiringly well in the Pro12. That doesn't erase his and Scotland's forgettable 6 nations.

With all due respect the Pro12 is not the same level as international rugby.

scarletspiderman Halfpenny's boot is well worth the praise on it's own. You wouldn't have beaten Ireland without his boot IMO.

Perhaps he restricts your game to some extent but he's also a very good player in his own right. I think he's more than just a good boot. I believe his other skills are sometimes overlooked because of his great goal kicking.

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Jun - 15:52

We'll also tell you he did admiringly well against France and Wales too. He then missed two games so judging him on a 60% attendance rate is also a wee bit foolish.

Against Ireland, the whole team were dreadful but at least he scored a try.

by **George Carlin** Wed 10 Jun - 16:03

LD - I have amended your original post to show the full text of the article.

I thought this this was an interesting piece and it's fairly obvious we could all add a large number of players to that list.

However, at its core the article is short but fairly well considered. What we're talking about is not a list of 'best' players - the whole point is to acknowlege those players whose national sides do not have an alternative of comparable quality or skills and to that extent I think that it's a fairly successful endeavour.

Samson Lee is a great example. Yes, he's young but if Wales lose him, whom would they put in his place?

And yes, despite the awful 6N that everyone in the Scotland team had - Finn Russell is absolutely the correct player to have on that list. We have cover at lock and guys with a bit of gas like Sean Maitland who could make a fist of covering Stuart Hogg but at fly half don't have anyone remotely comparable to Russell and if you look at how Scotland played during the match when he was banned for upending Biggar, that's all the proof that you need.

Nobody is saying Russell is better than Ford, Sexton et al. That's not what this piece is about.

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 16:04

Tattie Scones RRN he did not give Scotland the control they badly needed vs France. Can't just do the flash things, need to add some substance too.

I guess if "attacking" with ball in hand is all you want from a 10 then yes he did quite well vs France......

Scotland had the opportunities vs Wales but did not take them - the 10 has to take some responsibility for that.

Finn Russell played 4 out of 5 games.

Hogg IMO was the outstanding Scottish player.

Hogg is the heart beat of the Scottish side. Against England at Twickenham, it seemed as if one point it was Hogg vs the entire England team. He refused to lie down whilst other players were being torn asunder by the early England attack. It was partly down to Hogg's intervention that meant that England were not out of sight at half time as well as England's poor finishing.

george carlin As for not replacing Samson Lee, Wales have recruited Tomas Francis into their squad. He has done well in the AP, if Francis does well in the warm ups he could well overtake Samson Lee.

Lee is not an unstoppable scrummaging machine - Marler dominated him in the 6 nations for example.

Wales should be worried that a similar thing could happen in Autumn.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 10 Jun - 16:14

beshocked wrote:Tattie Scones RRN he did not give Scotland the control they badly needed vs France. Can't just do the flash things, need to add some substance too.

I guess if "attacking" with ball in hand is all you want from a 10 then yes he did quite well vs France......

Scotland had the opportunities vs Wales but did not take them - the 10 has to take some responsibility for that.

Finn Russell played 4 out of 5 games.

Hogg IMO was the outstanding Scottish player.

I would agree. However having a flashy full back isn't as important as having a game conrtroling 10. When looking at who we have behind Russell we have Jackson who hasn't played since the Autumn, and Weir who is one of the most suicidal fly halfs I have ever seen.

Russell is absolutely indispensable to Scotland.

beshocked wrote:With all due respect the Pro12 is not the same level as international rugby.

Can't really argue with that, although the play off games between Glasgow and Ulster, and Glasgow against Munster were pretty intense stuff. Just because Sarries got an easy ride against Barf in the Jeff final, don't tar all the leagues with the same brush! Wink

The pro 12 was fiercely contested this year.

by **profitius** Wed 10 Jun - 16:25

Finn Russell and had a great season for Glasgow and could be one of the best 10s in Europe now.

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 16:28

ruggerradge Scotland don't have a controlling 10 - that's perhaps part of the problem?

Basically what you're saying is he's important because he's the best you've got - fair enough I guess.

Sarries had an easy ride against Bath because Bath's "attacking" game was tailor made for Saracens to beat. The Saints vs Sarries game in the semis was a bruising encounter

Though well done for winning the Pro12.

I hope Glasgow can kick on and do well in the ERCC.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 10 Jun - 16:34

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge Scotland don't have a controlling 10 - that's perhaps part of the problem?

Basically what you're saying is he's important because he's the best you've got - fair enough I guess.

Sarries had an easy ride against Bath because Bath's "attacking" game was tailor made for Saracens to beat. The Saints vs Sarries game in the semis was a bruising encounter

Though well done for winning the Pro12.

I hope Glasgow can kick on and do well in the ERCC.

You aren't actually suggesting I'm a soap dodging Weegie are you? Erm

I'll get RDW in here to hand out a ban to you for such a blatant insult. Wink

by **LondonTiger** Wed 10 Jun - 16:38

beshocked you have completely missed the point of the original article, and are then arguing for the sake of it.

Samson Lee and Finn Russell deserve to be on that list, quite possibly more than any other players. Lee because behind him there is no-one of any proven ability, russell because he is the best Scotland have by a long way and pivotal to how they will want to play the game.

I would argue that the first name on the list is perhaps one player who shoudl not be on it. 1/2p is magnificent, yet shoudl he be injured Liam williams is, atm, the better FB and Biggar a world class goal kicker.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 10 Jun - 16:39

Oh, and only someone who did not watch the game woudl have thought Saracens had an easy ride in the final. For pretty much the entire second half they were clinging on by their fingertips.

by thomh Wed 10 Jun - 16:53

Yes surely the question is who a team would most miss. By that measure of course you could put any starting 10 in just because it's such an integral position. Losing Ford would be horrific for England even if you think highly of Farrell, because you'd be changing the whole style of play. That's not so true of Halfpenny who, while an amazing place kicker, doesn't dictate the way Wales play to any great extent and isn't necessarily that much better than Biggar at place-kicking.

Robshaw is an obvious addition for England. Ben Youngs potentially should be on there, as Care is the only player capable of matching his attack but has been out of form. Brown is another. Goode isn't the same player at international level and putting Watson or Nowell at 15 wouldn't be ideal.

by Golden Wed 10 Jun - 16:56

From an Irish POV losing any of POC Sexton or Murray would be a massive blow to our chances. But out of those 3, the player I'd least like to see ruled out is Murray. Jackson and Henderson can do a job but behind Murray all we have is Reddan or Boss. Reddans legs are gone and a bench spot is probably the best he can hope for. Boss is in a similar style to Murray but lacks the class, the pass and is 35.

by beshocked Wed 10 Jun - 16:57

Londontiger winning by 12 points is hardly clinging on by their fingertips.

I didn't watch it but I listened. Saracens built up a half time lead that had never been overturned in an AP final - giving an opposition an over 20 point lead at half time is certainly a most worthy gift.

Beating Tigers in the AP 2010-11 was clinging on by their fingertips....

Perhaps an easy ride is a tad overexaggerated but it was one of the less close AP finals in recent years.

How do Scotland want to play?

Let's just put it this way as an England fan I wouldn't be in the slightest worried about seeing Samson Lee or Finn Russell in the starting line ups for Wales and Scotland respectively.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Jun - 17:25

Yeah there was no easy ride in that final but the lead was enough in the end. Not sure it was gifted by Bath either you rode a bit of luck and took advantage.

This isnt a best of list but how hard are they to replsce. Its a bit of a how good is your depth in every position.

by Fanster Wed 10 Jun - 17:35

beshocked

Although I agree with you about Lee and Russell, you have to admit with halfpenny and Biggar on the pitch and Lee in the team points are always going to come for Wales, he's no Adam yet but the difference between him and Jones is huge, and you would much rather see Jones on the pitch.

Russell I think is overhyped, he lacks substance, playing the way Glasgow do he has a great platform and can try things regularly, with the pressures of international rugby you have to be solid throughout, right now he hasn't got that. It's not to say he won't develop it, but right now he isn't a good international player yet.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed 10 Jun - 19:25

Robshaw is a bit of a glaring omission. Yes England have other possible options, but none of them have actually been tried for, well basically the last four years. I think Robshaw is the one player England really don't want to lose.

Other than that, Picamoles and Dusautoir are somewhat bizarre options for France IMO. Picamoles is barely established as first choice, and Dusautoir, admirable player that he is, isn't as great as he once was. With the emergence of Le Roux on the flank I'm not sure he's all that indispensable. Trinh-Duc maybe, on the basis that (given the initial squad they've picked) if he gets injured they're down to Tales at 10, who's awful.

By that same yardstick, Russell is the correct pick. He's not the finished article (nor should we expect him to be), but he's seriously talented and miles ahead of their next best. I'd also be tempted to throw Dunbar in there, given how fast Scott seems to have regressed over the last couple of years.

by **George Carlin** Wed 10 Jun - 20:00

Fanster wrote:beshocked

Although I agree with you about Lee and Russell, you have to admit with halfpenny and Biggar on the pitch and Lee in the team points are always going to come for Wales, he's no Adam yet but the difference between him and Jones is huge, and you would much rather see Jones on the pitch.

Russell I think is overhyped, he lacks substance, playing the way Glasgow do he has a great platform and can try things regularly, with the pressures of international rugby you have to be solid throughout, right now he hasn't got that. It's not to say he won't develop it, but right now he isn't a good international player yet.

My god. Of course he isn't a good international player yet.

Finn Russell has played precisely 32 games of professional club rugby in his entire life. His 9 internationals are on top of that. He's 22 and came to rugby late.

George Ford has almost three times as many professional minutes at the same age.

The point (and I think people are still missing it) for Scotland fans is that if Russell is this good now, just imagine what he's going to be like with ooooh, I don't know, let's say TWO full seasons of rugby behind him instead of one and a half.

He is nothing short of Luke Skywalker for Scotland fans. Be in no doubt about that.

We used to play Phil Godman and Dan Parks for the love of feck.

by Gwlad Wed 10 Jun - 20:21

Lee is there because without him, Wales are stuffed come scrum time frankly so yes he is invaluable.

Any list with Tom Youngs on it, other than a list of short dodgy hookers, isn't really worth reading.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Jun - 20:23

by Fanster Wed 10 Jun - 22:41

George Carlin

I get the feeling that the ecitement surrounding Russell in Scotland is based around the fact that he has a running game, and an eye for a pass, which after a run of 10's of the likes you include is a breathe of fresh air. However I don't think he has any sort of boot yet, he's very irratic, especially under pressure.
I wouldn't say he isn't going to be a great Scottish fly half, maybe he will, but I don't think he will be able to develop his game under the likes of pressure he will be at international rugby. As I said Glasgows gameplan is superb and compliments Russells abilities (For the record I think Townsend is probably the most underrated coach around and I cannot beleive French, English and international teams are not hounding him with offers).

For the record, Dan Parks, while not a true talent was a very solid 10, with a very cultured boot who kept Scotland in games at times, he may not have been pretty to watch but he was effective!

by Fanster Wed 10 Jun - 22:43

Sorry, forgot to ask how Russell has played at european cup level, I don't think i;ve seen Glasgow play this year in the euro, or really followed their results much.

by alexgmacdonald Wed 10 Jun - 22:59

Fanster wrote:Sorry, forgot to ask how Russell has played at european cup level, I don't think i;ve seen Glasgow play this year in the euro, or really followed their results much.

A wonderful try!

We (Glasgow), were very close to qualifying for the QF's.

We opened with a bonus point home victory over Bath, followed by a narrow victory away to Montpellier, then back to back losses against Toulouse, a win against Montpellier then a close loss to Bath on the final pool game

by **George Carlin** Wed 10 Jun - 23:40

Fanster wrote:George Carlin

I get the feeling that the ecitement surrounding Russell in Scotland is based around the fact that he has a running game, and an eye for a pass, which after a run of 10's of the likes you include is a breathe of fresh air. However I don't think he has any sort of boot yet, he's very irratic, especially under pressure.
I wouldn't say he isn't going to be a great Scottish fly half, maybe he will, but I don't think he will be able to develop his game under the likes of pressure he will be at international rugby.

He will certainly develop under pressure - that's the nature of the beast. If what you mean is that he won't get the same armchair ride he sometimes enjoys in Pro 12 games, then I certainly agree with that.

Don't be too sure that Scottish packs will always struggle though. They had an absolutely appalling 6 Nations but are capable of much better now that Scott Johnson's residual influence has evaporated, Cotter has his feet under the table and gets to know the players, the likes of Hines have joined the coaching team and some cohesion in selection has developed. After years of old scrote, the worm is slowly turning and more options are becoming available to Cotter. Next year the pack could look like this:

01 Dickinson
02 Ford
03 Nel
04 J Gray
05 B Toolis
06 Du Preez
07 Barclay/Watson/Blake
08 Strauss

If you don't know some of these names now, I believe that you will fairly soon.

As the wise sifu says, we shall see. Let's just have a few good World Cup performances first.

by TJ Thu 11 Jun - 1:12

So funny to see people slating Russell who have not seen him play much, who do not understand how crucial he is to scotland ( the point of the article) and who want him to be Dan Carter in is prime after so little experience.

Oh - and we do have a controlling 10 as well. Weir. Not shown his potential due to two seasons wrecked with injury and crap selections.

Ask the ulster fans how good Russell is.

Fanster - you slate him and then admit you haven't seen him play much.

by Gwlad Thu 11 Jun - 6:40

Russell is quality of that there is no doubt but rather like Parisse, he plays for a national team that will never see the light of day.
It's a bit like being a stripper when the lights are off, what's the point? His brilliance is dimmed by being Scottish. Sad but trew.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 11 Jun - 8:22

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RugbyWorld wrote:Leigh Halfpenny: Wales have other options at full-back - like Liam Williams and James Hook - but Halfpenny is the world's best from the kicking tee and his accuracy has proved invaluable for Warren Gatland's team. With a style of play that looks to force errors more than create chances out wide, Halfpenny's ability to keep the scoreboard ticking - especially from long range - is key to their chances of success.

The list has Halfpenny down as irreplaceable, but to be honest I think he is one of the players that hampers Wales. We are so determined to have him in the side, and so careful to ensure he doesn't get knocked that we don't use him the way we should. Of late, Wales seem to play far better rugby when Halfpenny is not on the pitch, and we are not looking for him to slot the winning three pointer for us.

I'd agree with that SS, also other than long range Biggars kicking is pretty much top draw at the moment so we wouldn't miss that element. The one thing I can't understand is we looked very rigid and playing to structure when Halfpenny plays yet when he goes off we open up and play a more attacking role.

So why is that? Is Leigh playing to structure and afraid to break these orders if so then it seems Liam Williams isn't afraid to break orders etc.

by **George Carlin** Thu 11 Jun - 9:20

The thing about Halfpenny was that with Lee Byrne electing to play in France, 1/2p had no meaningful competition for the jersey for quite a long time. Only now with Liam Williams playing so well is there a significant opportunity cost in choosing to start him.

I think that Wales look a more confident unit with Halfpenny playing but I am not as familiar with Biggar so perhaps he does render the Lilliputian's goal kicking skills as less important.

Certainly nobody should keep their place just because they are a goalkicker - something Scotland fans have been screaming at Scott Johnson and recently Vern Cotter for quite some time. Laidlaw is very accurate, but now so is Russell and blocking Sam Hidalgo-Clyne from the Scotland 9 short in favour of Laidlaw is looking like a luxury we increasingly cannot afford.

Lots of Wales fans thought that Mike Phillips was a perfectly acceptable choice for Wales until Rhys Webb stepped up and threw into horribly sharp relief what the national side had been missing in a 9.

by HammerofThunor Thu 11 Jun - 9:34

Other than the people who seem to have misunderstood the point this is quite interesting. Halfpenny is probably the most interesting on the list for all the reasons already posted. Personally, I'd have Biggar and Williams in and at least give it a go (with Halfpenny on the bench?).

by lostinwales Thu 11 Jun - 9:49

Interesting. England does have a decent back up in pretty much every position.

Robshaw is probably the closest to most valuable, but that is as much to do with what he brings to the team as its beating heart as there are decent if underexposed possible replacements.

by beshocked Thu 11 Jun - 10:54

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=471

Thought I would look at some kicking % in the Pro12......

Finn Russell's kicking is 71%..... He was basically on par in this area with Kelly Haimona of Zebre....

Greig Laidlaw in comparison in the 6 nations had a kicking of almost 94%.....

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=479

In the AP, Laidlaw had a kicking of 81% - it's no wonder Finn Russell was not the goal kicker for Scotland.

Interestingly Biggar beat Halfpenny in the kicking stats this season in the 6 nations.... seems like you guys have a good point...

Now I am not saying stats are everything but it's interesting to see.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 11 Jun - 11:39

beshocked wrote:http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=471

Thought I would look at some kicking % in the Pro12......

Finn Russell's kicking is 71%..... He was basically on par in this area with Kelly Haimona of Zebre....

Greig Laidlaw in comparison in the 6 nations had a kicking of almost 94%.....

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=479

In the AP, Laidlaw had a kicking of 81% - it's no wonder Finn Russell was not the goal kicker for Scotland.

Interestingly Biggar beat Halfpenny in the kicking stats this season in the 6 nations.... seems like you guys have a good point...

Now I am not saying stats are everything but it's interesting to see.

To be honest Finn Russel shouldn't be taking kicks for Scotland either. Hogg, Laidlaw and SHC are all better kickers. Although since SHC has come on so well this season our dependence on Laidlaw hopefully will diminish.

by The Saint Thu 11 Jun - 12:04

Fanster wrote:beshocked

Although I agree with you about Lee and Russell, you have to admit with halfpenny and Biggar on the pitch and Lee in the team points are always going to come for Wales, he's no Adam yet but the difference between him and Jones is huge, and you would much rather see Jones on the pitch.

Russell I think is overhyped, he lacks substance, playing the way Glasgow do he has a great platform and can try things regularly, with the pressures of international rugby you have to be solid throughout, right now he hasn't got that. It's not to say he won't develop it, but right now he isn't a good international player yet.

You aren't watching much Welsh rugby up there in London are you Fanster. Oh dear.

I'm not so sure Russell is invaluable, but he's a decent player. Needs to watch his discipline though Smile

.

by The Saint Thu 11 Jun - 12:06

beshocked wrote:http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=471

Thought I would look at some kicking % in the Pro12......

Finn Russell's kicking is 71%..... He was basically on par in this area with Kelly Haimona of Zebre....

Greig Laidlaw in comparison in the 6 nations had a kicking of almost 94%.....

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=479

In the AP, Laidlaw had a kicking of 81% - it's no wonder Finn Russell was not the goal kicker for Scotland.

Interestingly Biggar beat Halfpenny in the kicking stats this season in the 6 nations.... seems like you guys have a good point...

Now I am not saying stats are everything but it's interesting to see.

Biggar was only required to kick in one game, when we routed Italy, and he missed one which was likely the one not near the posts. So when you engage your brain and look the past the stats, it becomes less interesting.

by lostinwales Thu 11 Jun - 12:08

Stats are only useful when they can be used to support your point of view Very Happy

by The Saint Thu 11 Jun - 12:13

George Carlin wrote:

Lots of Wales fans thought that Mike Phillips was a perfectly acceptable choice for Wales until Rhys Webb stepped up and threw into horribly sharp relief what the national side had been missing in a 9.

Don't know what you were watching, and although he slipped well down the pecking order over a year ago Mike Phillips proved time and again with Wales and the Lions (two tours) that he was one of the best No.9s in the NH for a period. I don't understand the hate he gets from a lot of people.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 11 Jun - 12:15

1/2p is a World class player, but not invaluable to the team. To me the invaluable players are those who are either central to how the team playes or for whom the replacement is a major drop off in quality.

I admit I watch little Pro12, but what is the cover at No8 like for Wales?

by The Saint Thu 11 Jun - 12:21

LondonTiger wrote:1/2p is a World class player, but not invaluable to the team. To me the invaluable players are those who are either central to how the team playes or for whom the replacement is a major drop off in quality.

I admit I watch little Pro12, but what is the cover at No8 like for Wales?

Slim. Guys like Dan Baker at the Ospreys look good but is untested at Wales level. Pitman looked good in the beginning, but seems to have fallen away. Navidi plays 8, but is more of an open-side; he's one of the best players in Wales IMO but we have a 7 at each Region playing well enough to get into the international team. Instead Gatland has opted for a 6 who can also cover 8 (Moriarty) - makes sense.

by **George Carlin** Thu 11 Jun - 13:20

The Saint wrote:
George Carlin wrote:

Lots of Wales fans thought that Mike Phillips was a perfectly acceptable choice for Wales until Rhys Webb stepped up and threw into horribly sharp relief what the national side had been missing in a 9.

Don't know what you were watching, and although he slipped well down the pecking order over a year ago Mike Phillips proved time and again with Wales and the Lions (two tours) that he was one of the best No.9s in the NH for a period. I don't understand the hate he gets from a lot of people.

I don't hate Phillips at all. Quite the contrary.

I am just in the school of thought that likes conventional scrum halves with quick service who gives the fly half time.

Nobody would deny that if the Wales pack was going forward in a game, he was very effective at what he did.
He's the most capped scrum-half in Welsh rugby history, so whatever he did, a lot of people seemed to like it.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 11 Jun - 14:06

George Carlin wrote:LD - I have amended your original post to show the full text of the article.

I thought this this was an interesting piece and it's fairly obvious we could all add a large number of players to that list.

However, at its core the article is short but fairly well considered. What we're talking about is not a list of 'best' players - the whole point is to acknowlege those players whose national sides do not have an alternative of comparable quality or skills and to that extent I think that it's a fairly successful endeavour.

Samson Lee is a great example. Yes, he's young but if Wales lose him, whom would they put in his place?

And yes, despite the awful 6N that everyone in the Scotland team had - Finn Russell is absolutely the correct player to have on that list. We have cover at lock and guys with a bit of gas like Sean Maitland who could make a fist of covering Stuart Hogg but at fly half don't have anyone remotely comparable to Russell and if you look at how Scotland played during the match when he was banned for upending Biggar, that's all the proof that you need.

Nobody is saying Russell is better than Ford, Sexton et al. That's not what this piece is about.

Well said that man.

by **rodders** Thu 11 Jun - 14:28

Russell is better than Ford, Sexton et al.

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