Big Name Players and Big Game Players

There are plenty of rugby players who already have a big reputation that follows them around an clutters up media inches, they are the players you hear about before each big game.

I'm not talking about the other kind of celebrity, gutter press chasing, ego-driven sock-puppets here - I'm not talking of your Cipriani and Hensons.

I'm talking about those players that the popular media hone in on before a big game - I guess the most famous was Jonah Lomu, but since then we have plenty of others, Jonny Wilkinson, Brian O'Driscoll, Daniel Carter, Paul O'Connell, Mike Brown, George North, Israel Folau, Victor Matfield, Frederik Michelak.

But how often do we actually see those players stand up in really make a difference in games that really count, on the biggest stages of all? Isn't it a case that more often than not, some unknown, or unfancied player pulls out a blinder and that is often the tipping point of the game.

For example, isn't it the unfancied Cuthbert who more often than not scores the vital try for Wales? how often was BoD seen trudging off dejected only for someone else to win it for Ireland? How much use was Jonah Lomu in the 2005 RWC final - none that's how much? apart from that one drop goal handed on a plate in 2003, what did Wilkinson really do? Don't get me started on Henson! Who only kicked one goal and made one tackle on the worlds smallest center before being crowned media darling!

So how is it that some players seem to get reputations bigger than their abilities, whilst others are quiet over-achievers? And who is your favourite media cast off? My favourites from history would be Mauger, Montgomery, Mortlock, Moriarty and Murphy.

I think its common to have unrealistic expectations of some players. Just because they can do amazing things does not mean that they will do every game. And because they don't then suddenly they are 'marked down' in some way. Do something brilliant and it overshadows the good stuff you do for the other 79 minutes and 55 seconds

2005 RWC final eh? Good one.

BOD won more matches by himself than I've ever seen any player do. In the latter stages of his career that ability to be a game breaker waned and at that point people were talking about the player he used to be, and the reputation was based on past achievements. But when he was in his pomp I've never seen a player so consistently individually influence how games panned out. Even more than Shane Williams I would argue.

Dan Luger - 24 tries in 38 matches for England. Essentially the forgotten man of English rugby but 6th highest English try scorer.

Imanol Harinorduquy - missed out on 2010 player of the 6 nations tournament despite being the outstanding player of the tournament. 5 6 nations titles, 3 GS. Felt that he helped inspire France to the RWC final in 2011. An underrated talisman who was overshadowed by the media darling, Dusautoir.

Eoin Reddan - Irish scrum half, part of a very successful Wasps team then part of Leinster's success. 60 caps for Ireland.

Never met anyone who didn't think Harinordoquy wasn't a genuinely world class number 8 in his pomp.

No 7&1/2 wrote:2005 RWC final eh? Good one.

Wow doesn't time fly!!! Of course I meant 1995!!!!!

Extremely ignorant view on Henson.

PrichardThatcher wrote:  My favourites from history would be  Mauger, Montgomery, Mortlock, Moriarty and Murphy.

Paul, Richard, Ross or James?

Richard Hill was one of those players who an important cog in the successful Clive Woodward world cup winning squad but didn't at the time get the same headlines as media darlings like Wilkinson or Johnson.

Known as the silent assassin.

In recent years his importance has been highlighted and might well fill the 6 shirt in an all time world XV.

Arguably his best club performance was against Ospreys in 2007/8 in one of his last games - effectively playing on one leg he inspired his team to a victory over the Ospreys team that at the time was chock full of Welsh grandslam heroes like Jones,Jones,Jones,Hook,Byrne,Williams and Henson.

PrichardThatcher wrote:
I'm talking about those players that the popular media hone in on before a big game - I guess the most famous was Jonah Lomu, but since then we have plenty of others, Jonny Wilkinson, Brian O'Driscoll, Daniel Carter, Paul O'Connell, Mike Brown, George North, Israel Folau, Victor Matfield, Frederik Michelak.

Well if I was picking a team to go into a huge game most of those guys would be the first names on team sheet.....well maybe not Mike Brown or Michelak...but the others guys are good....

Sorry didn't know where to stick this and not worthy of a new thread but check out Lomu and Horgan.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11503771

PrichardThatcher wrote:apart from that one drop goal handed on a plate in 2003, what did Wilkinson really do?

That one's been bothering me since this thread started, and I'm going to bite.

Wilkinson changed the role of the fly half. The template was so successful that we forget he was the first to combine the traditional attacking and distribution with new levels of defence and place kicking. Our view of that is obscured by the iconic drop goal, by the time he lost to injury and by Dan Carter, who was ultimately the more complete player. But Wilkinson did it first.

His place kicking accuracy forced teams to play differently against England, because they knew penalties would be punished. He was also uncannily good at putting kicks to touch close to the 5m line without going into touch-in-goal. Add to that pinpoint crossfield kicks and a fast cut-out pass and his distribution was also world class. And, if I remember correctly, he led the tackle stats in that RWC Final. With Neil Back and Richard Hill also on the pitch.

It's easier to list what he didn't do: he never had a particularly fast turn of speed, and he was a better executor than visionary, working best when there was another ballplayer outside him to call the situation.

Frans Steyn had a very impressive record up to the 2011 world cup, when he didn't play the boks looked shaky and their win record was average. When he played they looked so solid. I remember BB and I looked into it once and the win rate with him playing/not was over 20% different. He wanted the biggest stage but PDV simply couldn't see it to build his team around it.

PDV demise was much to do with his injury in the pool stages of the RWC. Had he not got it things could have been very different indeed (although his conditioning was terrible leading up to the RWC so injury was no surprise).

In terms of the boks today Bissie, Burger, Lambie, Habana are all in the category of rising to the occasion and playing centre stage rugby.

BOD in his early days was like watching a test player in a 3rds social side, he would drag his team single handedly so many times. JW too, the 2007 RWC was for me his greatest triumph... he showed how good he was in dragging a club side to the brink of RWC glory.

fa, I think Mike Catt deserves a lot of the credit for 2007. Very much an under-rated player (the memory of him being trampled by Lomu stuck in people's minds - though even then his positioning was defensively sound and England just didn't get enough support to him in time).

I was at the final and Catt was doing so much he seemed to be playing centre and fullback at the same time. I felt any hope of victory slip away when he left the field injured, as he was holding it all together for England tactically.

Risca Rev wrote:Extremely ignorant view on Henson.

Quite! His defence, distribution and boot was a key component of our GS win in 2008, would like to see our win/loss record with him in the team

Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2005 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

Mike Catt was the player I looked up to the most skills wise with Townsend, he was an awesome player . He could play all the positions and pretty much did for England. If you wanted a big man front foot ball, up until 2003 he could do it. He had great speed, ball handling, passing and a huge boot... probably the first man in England to distribute when tackled too... probably the last as well (its a saffa thing I guess).
Play enough games and everyone gets smashed... and in that game I recall Jonah trampling on Leonard, Rodber, Clarke (who i think possibly took one of the biggest hits in history) and Jonno.

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2008 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

Fixed that for you. He was better in 08 than he was in 05. I don't think he can be called a "great" as he doesn't have longevity. However, with the exception of Ireland away (2006?) I dont recall him having a bad game for Wales. Rose tinted perhaps and happy to be challenged on this as I maybe forgetting some obvious games

fa0019 wrote:Mike Catt was the player I looked up to the most skills wise with Townsend, he was an awesome player . He could play all the positions and pretty much did for England. If you wanted a big man front foot ball, up until 2003 he could do it. He had great speed, ball handling, passing and a huge boot... probably the first man in England to distribute when tackled too... probably the last as well (its a saffa thing I guess).
Play enough games and everyone gets smashed... and in that game I recall Jonah trampling on Leonard, Rodber, Clarke (who i think possibly took one of the biggest hits in history) and Jonno.

He was the reason England won the WC in 03 IMO

GavinDragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2008 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

Fixed that for you. He was better in 08 than he was in 05. I don't think he can be called a "great" as he doesn't have longevity. However, with the exception of Ireland away (2006?) I dont recall him having a bad game for Wales. Rose tinted perhaps and happy to be challenged on this as I maybe forgetting some obvious games

2006 was bad but he was playing 10 off the bench right? Its more a case of not necessarily not playing poor but raising to the occasion. Henson simply never achieved this other than in snapshots.

fa0019 wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2008 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

Fixed that for you. He was better in 08 than he was in 05. I don't think he can be called a "great" as he doesn't have longevity. However, with the exception of Ireland away (2006?) I dont recall him having a bad game for Wales. Rose tinted perhaps and happy to be challenged on this as I maybe forgetting some obvious games

2006 was bad but he was playing 10 off the bench right? Its more a case of not necessarily not playing poor but raising to the occasion. Henson simply never achieved this other than in snapshots.

he did drift in and out of games

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2005 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

On the international stage the autumn series of 2004 Henson was world class. Best Welsh centre play since Allan Bateman.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2005 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

On the international stage the autumn series of 2004 Henson was world class. Best Welsh centre play since Allan Bateman.

Kind of a sad character really. Had everything to be one of the real terrific players, but couldn't keep himself under control and lost it. Puts the great players in perspective.

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Henson had all the skills but hardly ever utilised them to the fullest. Ireland 2005 was for me probably his best game. The big players regardless of coaching ideas etc seem to put in the performances when it matters. Henson simply didn't achieve this, great shame for rugby but we sometimes see players like him.

I'd put him in a supreme talent category but not a big time player category.

On the international stage the autumn series of 2004 Henson was world class. Best Welsh centre play since Allan Bateman.

Kind of a sad character really.  Had everything to be one of the real terrific players, but couldn't keep himself under control and lost it.  Puts the great players in perspective.

It happens in sport all the time... Some people have superb talents, some people can't handle a drink. Sometimes that applies to both.

There are people out there who help guide lads with talent, who are susceptible to behaving like idiots, down the right path.

Unfortunately there also those who wish to exploit and profit from people acting inappropriately.

To be fair, Hensons biggest problem was injuries.  As you can imagine  that is very frustrating to overcome.