Will Toulon make it Four in a Row?

Pool 5: Bath Rugby, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, Wasps


That is, on first glance, a "Pool of Death". All four clubs made the 1/4 finals last season and played each other at various stages of the season. Toulon are most definitely rebuilding, Bath and Wasps are improving sides and Leinster have parted company with their Head Coach after what was for them a disappointing season. All four are past winners of the title.

Now some on here seem to think that Wasps will be whipping boys and will give up on this competition. With their additional recruitment I cannot see that and feel that they will be extremely hard to beat at home. Last season neither Bath nor Leinster won away to Wasps. Meanwhile all three of those sides should feel they can beat Toulon when they host them.

I struggle to see Toulon securing enough points to gain a home 1/4 final, and would not be surprised if they failed to win the group. As there is a good chance that the runner-up in this group will not make the 1/4s, that could see them knocked out early.

Over to you.

No front row is worse this year ATM and it was pretty poor last year.

Will get to the semis and lose IMO.

Have a lot of talent but I can't see there set piece giving them any platform against the bigger packs.

LondonTiger wrote:Now some on here seem to think that Wasps will be whipping boys and will give up on this competition.

As far as I can see, only one poster has said that.

Toulon have often won by doing just enough in recent seasons (sign of an experienced and well-drilled side) but I think they will come up short. As others have said there's little chance in a runner-up coming from this pool and I wouldn't be surprised to see any of the sides top it with (maybe only 4 wins).

No - Saracens will win it.

Agree totally on the weaknesses in the front row. Add to that their preference for mercurial Aussie flyhalfs and they will be more beatable than in prior seasons.

They also missed out On the Top 14 title this season so expect a renewed focus on that.

In saying that Vermulan and O'Connell aren't a bad couple of recruits...

If they get through the group cant see them been stopped. Should get stronger as the season goes on.

With all the players they have at the world cup and all their new signings itll take some time for them to gel. First round is probably the best time to play them.

Golden wrote:If they get through the group cant see them been stopped. Should get stronger as the season goes on.

With all the players they have at the world cup and all their new signings itll take some time for them to gel. First round is probably the best time to play them.

True but I expect Leinster to have similar post RWC issues (specially if Ireland reach at least the semi finals as expected).
key is for them not get a home QF and SF, eventually they will crumble.

whocares wrote:

Golden wrote:If they get through the group cant see them been stopped. Should get stronger as the season goes on.

With all the players they have at the world cup and all their new signings itll take some time for them to gel. First round is probably the best time to play them.

True but I expect Leinster to have similar post RWC issues (specially if Ireland reach at least the semi finals as expected).
key is for them not get a home QF and SF, eventually they will crumble.

Ye true for us too. Especially with a new coaching team who wont see much of their players til post world cup.

Yes they will win it. They've bought the rights to the trophy. Seemples !!!

Level playing field my hole.............

I don't reckon next seasons team will be as good as last... I think they'll take time to settle with all the new recruits, therefore not winning the competition. Whoever wins it will likely be beating Clermont in the final.

Ma'afu and Stevens aren't world class TH so could struggle there

The Saint wrote: Whoever wins it will likely be beating Clermont in the final.

  That's probably true!

Honestly think Toulon are a cut above the rest of the teams in their pool and could still get a home quarter-final. I hope they will get a hard away draw in the semis if they do get a home draw so we can see someone else in the Final.

Problem is Bath seem to bottle the big games, especially when packs can stand up to them and put Ford under pressure.

Wasps are still a few seasons from their best, the front 5 is weak and they lack experience.

Leinster aren't what they were and are pretty beatable.

Notch wrote:Honestly think Toulon are a cut above the rest of the teams in their pool and could still get a home quarter-final. I hope they will get a hard away draw in the semis if they do get a home draw so we can see someone else in the Final.

Toulon are better than the other 3, but not by enough that they should not believe they can beat them at home. Toulon, for me, will be weaker next season, yet Bath and Wasps will both be stronger than Leicester were last season. An average team like us managed to beat Toulon - and frankly Ulster fans and team should be extremely disappointed how badly they did at Ravenhill against them.

I said no, Toulon to top group with away QF and lose. French, French Irish English semis (thats been pretty consistent for ages, and cant see it changing, Munster have an easy ride to a home QF).

yappysnap wrote:Problem is Bath seem to bottle the big games, especially when packs can stand up to them and put Ford under pressure.

Wasps are still a few seasons from their best, the front 5 is weak and they lack experience.

Leinster aren't what they were and are pretty beatable.

Wasps will have a pretty decent tight five on paper;

1. Mullan
2. Festuccia
3. Johnstone
4. Launchbury
5. Davies

Five internationals. They should do alright especially when you add in their back row. Gopperth at 10 might be a hindrance to their backs though.

Leinster won't be in their golden age anymore but they'll be hard to beat in Dublin.

Bath have a young team that should improve year on year as they gain experience.

Toulon might well struggle at set piece but they have so much firepower it could become irrelevant.

Also the Wasps front row is not one of the stronger in the AP in my opinion.

Auterac will have to step up at LH with the departure of James for Bath too.

No guarantee either Bath or Wasps would get the upper hand in the front row.

I do agree with the sentiment that Toulon might not be as strong but Toulon aren't in a pool with any of the English teams who I think would cause the most problems at scrum time in my opinion.

Toulon lost at WR to a depleted Tigers side they should have beaten. Nome of the teams in their group will be expecting to lose home games. French teams, even Toulon, don't travel well. If you want to be a top seed you need to win a minimum of five games so they need to turn over two of those teams at home. That'll be tough and other teams in other groups have better chances to gain points.

Toulon away in the knock out stages at best. Can't see anyone going to France and getting a result mind.

Also worth pointing out that a lot of their new players don't speak French and will be at the RWC so will miss pre season and might not be settled in much before January.

Even if they win the group and get a home quarter final they need the luck of the draw to get a home semi as well.They are an excellent side but I don't think they'd have 3 in a row if they didn't keep getting home semi-finals.

The group will be tough with no easy away games and that could be a hurdle too far for them,while they might still qualify it's not a foregone conclusion like in previous years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Add to that their preference for mercurial Aussie flyhalfs

And then there is this:-

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_56684,00.html

I think he will be playing for Toulon after the WC.

Think that's already been confirmed LD

BamBam wrote:Think that's already been confirmed LD

That news was only put on the website yesterday afternoon, I do not think it is official yet, but with the Reds having ended talks with Copper, then a move to Toulon is looking most likely.

People seem to be very confident that Toulon will be weaker next year. Let's have a look:

Players In
Ma'a Nonu from Hurricanes
Jonathan Pélissié from Montpellier
Thibault Lassalle from Oyonnax
Salesi Ma'afu from Northampton Saints
Samu Manoa from Northampton Saints
Mohamed Boughanmi from Béziers
Julien Caminati from Grenoble
Quade Cooper from Queensland Reds
James O'Connor from Queensland Reds
Charles Ollivon from Bayonne
Anthony Etrillard from Bayonne
Paul O'Connell from Munster
Duane Vermeulen from Stormers
Matt Stevens from Sharks

Players Out
Bakkies Botha retired
Carl Hayman retired
Ali Williams retired
Michael Claassens to Sharks
Nicolas Durand to Lyon
Chris Masoe to Racing 92
Nicolás Sánchez to Argentina (Super Rugby)
Stéphane Munoz to Montauban
Corentin Braendlin to Agen
Rudi Wulf to Castres Olympique
David Smith to Castres Olympique
Martin Castrogiovanni to Racing 92

In terms of front rows, they will of course miss Hayman but I think that Castro departing will barely be noticed.

Against Clermont in the ERCC final, they started with Chiocci, Guirado and Hayman but Chilachava is hardly a rubbish substitute on the tighthead side and Matt Stevens has still got some game. Chiocci and Chilachava are both very young but seem to be up to the task.

I cannot see beyond the Bjellybaby squadron doing it again, sadly.

Gerhard Vosloo is also leaving (8/flanker) and should be followed by Gorgodze as well. Plenty of quality in their back row anyway but a few injury prone players as well (juan smith, lobbe). I think that Toulon chances in the next RCC highly depend on POC form as he's meant to be real leader of their pack. Not sure how cooper will fit in that team as well and wonder if nonu and bastareaud will play together!

Vosloo is a monster and showed up really well for the Barbarians.
Do you know where he is going, WhoCares?

Potential Toulon team next season:

1) Chiocci, 2) Guirado, 3) Ma'afu
4) Manoa, 5) PO'C
6) Smith, 7) Armitage, 8) Vermeulen
9) Tillous-Borde, 10) Giteau
12) Nonu, 13) Bastareaud
11) J'OC, 14) Habana, 15) Halfpenny

16) Etrillard, 17) Chilachava, 18) Stevens
19) Taofifénua, 20) Ollivon
21) Pélissié, 22) Cooper, 23) Mitchell/Armitage

Not bad.

Welly wrote: Potential Toulon team next season:

1) Chiocci, 2) Guirado, 3) Ma'afu
4) Manoa, 5) PO'C
6) Smith, 7) Armitage, 8) Vermeulen
9) Tillous-Borde, 10) Giteau
12) Nonu, 13) Bastareaud
11) J'OC, 14) Habana, 15) Halfpenny

16) Etrillard, 17) Chilachava, 18) Stevens
19) Taofifénua, 20) Ollivon
21) Pélissié, 22) Cooper, 23) Mitchell/Armitage

Not bad.

That is frightening.

As is the prospect of:
09 Pelissié
10 Gitau/Cooper
11 Mitchell
12 Nonu
13 O'Connor
14 Habana
15 Halfpenny

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/two-incredible-world-class-teams-9493997

15. JM Hernandez / Halfpenny
14. Mitchell / Tuisova
13. Armatage / Mermoz
12. Nonu / Basteraud
11. Habana / O'Connor
10. Gitau / Cooper
9. Tillous Borde / Michillak

1. Chioci / Fresia
2. Guirado / Burden
3. Stevens / Ma'afu
4. Manoa / Suta
5. O'Connell / Taofifenua
6. Smith / Gorgodzee
7. Armatage / JM Fernadez Lobbe
8. Vermeulen / Ollivon

I don't rate their front row as highly as past seasons. That was a place where they could often milk penalties and have one of their high percentage kickers get the 3 points. You can't expect to lose guys like Hayman, Williams and Botha and not feel it. I think this team will take a bit of time to settle.

Also, didn't Burden go to Montpellier?

I don't see Toulon losing at home, but I only see them picking up points on the road at Wasps.

Toulon won't get a home semi unless Wasps or Leinster, or maybe even Bath pull a Sale/Castres in rounds 4/5/6 and their squadmen get wolloped by 50 points plus, which in Wasps case would probably be a smart thing to do with an eye on 4th in the league.

Away from home Toulon are beatable, and with an average tight 5 (POC is on the turn and his body after the RWC will probably be in bits) they should struggle for a platform.

That said, another France v France final unless Sarries have what it takes to upset the applecart, mind they nearly sacrificed top 4 in the league this year by doing so, will they have the bottle to do it again and risk not winning a thing?

yes burden seem to be on his way out. so is JM hernandez (joining the Argentian S15 franchise)

as it stands this is their squad :

props :
Xavier CHIOCCI LH
Florian FRESIA LH
Levan CHILACHAVA TH
Alexandre MENINI LH
Salesi MA'AFU TH
Mohamed BOUGHANMI TH
Joel RINGER (Espoirs/development)

Hooker
Jean-Charles ORIOLI
Guilhem GUIRADO
Anthony ETRILLARD

2nd row:
Jocelino SUTA
Konstantin MIKAUTADZE
Romain TAOFIFENUA
Thibault LASSALLE
Paul O'CONNELL


Back Row:
Steffon ARMITAGE
Juan Martin Fernandez LOBBE
Juan SMITH
Mamuka GORGODZE ??
Virgile BRUNI
Samu MANOA
Duane VERMEULEN
Charles OLLIVON

SHs:
Sebastien TILLOUS-BORDE
Eric ESCANDE
Jonathan PELISSIER

FHs:
Frédérick MICHALAK
Quade COOPER
Matt GITEAU

centres
Mathieu BASTAREAUD
Maxime MERMOZ
Ivan ROUX (Espoirs/development)
Théo BELAN (Espoirs/development)
Jimmy YOBO
Ma'a NONU

wings
Brian HABANA
Drew MITCHELL
Josua TUISOVA
James O'CONNOR
Julien CAMINATI (world cup joker)

FBs
Delon ARMITAGE
Leigh HALFPENNY

during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

Hmm they have a lot of internationals in that squad. Could possibly be playing a development team early doors. Could add a lot of pressure to get results later in the season.

Unfortunately the Barbarians have a very good chance of picking up a fourth title. Such a shame for the sport.

whocares wrote:
during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

They might have to suffer the indignity of fielding French players *shudder*.

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:
during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

They might have to suffer the indignity of fielding French players *shudder*.

where's that * Shrug * emoticon again

whocares wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:
during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

They might have to suffer the indignity of fielding French players *shudder*.

where's that * Shrug * emoticon again

Specially for you:

they will buy there way to the top, and guess what bath are doing and unless someone steps in to stop it they will totally ruin our game by way of making it so one sided.

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:
during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

They might have to suffer the indignity of fielding French players *shudder*.

Toulon have more players in the French squad than any other team bar Clermont and Racing.

exileray wrote:they will buy there way to the top

Should they not spend their money then? Should they give it to the RSPCA instead?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:
during the RWC it would be interesting to see who will plays 10 if Giteau is indeed going ! their last resort is Yobo (centre) who played a couple of times 10 for the "espoir/development" team last season.

They might have to suffer the indignity of fielding French players *shudder*.

Toulon have more players in the French squad than any other team bar Clermont and Racing.

Don't ruin entrenched views with facts.

I love it when people use the 'except' line...

Toulon are the cheapest squad in the T14 except for...

Toulon are the most expensive team on the planet, with the biggest budget

Cleremont - 8
Racing - 7
Toulouse - 5
Toulon - 5 (4 fully fledged international players signed in recent seasons)
Montpellier - 3
Castres -3
Stade F - 3

I mean they have the same amount of players in the French squad as Tolouse also, making them joint 3rd representitives within the national side, and lets be honest 4/5 representitives were signed because they were international players.

Lets be honest, Toulon have 2 French back row players in their first team squad, 1 who hasn't been capped and one who got a cap in a nothing friendly, so I would say Toulon certainly wouldn't want to play a French qualified back row...

But lets not let facts get in the way of your facts based on entrenched views!

Toulon do not have the biggest budget.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Toulon do not have the biggest budget.

You knw what, before this turns into another monotonous argument about why you love Toulon and claim them to be a huge success story i'll just make one point...

All of the info above, proving you were trying to justify Toulons love for French international rugby and you focus on the one little technicallity you beleive can try to win you the internet?

At least grow a sack and discuss the fact you manipulated figures to try to prove what you beleived, and that was Toulon contribute more than anyone else in the T14 to French international rugby (Well except for 3 other teams)

Fanster wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Toulon do not have the biggest budget.

You knw what, before this turns into another monotonous argument about why you love Toulon and claim them to be a huge success story i'll just make one point...

All of the info above, proving you were trying to justify Toulons love for French international rugby and you focus on the one little technicallity you beleive can try to win you the internet?

At least grow a sack and discuss the fact you manipulated figures to try to prove what you beleived, and that was Toulon contribute more than anyone else in the T14 to French international rugby (Well except for 3 other teams)

Only Clermont and Racing have more France players in the current France squad, than Toulon. That my friend is a fact.

I don't love Toulon. Not even in my top 3 favourite French sides. But the constant misinformation spread about them on this site needs to be put in it's place.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Toulon do not have the biggest budget.

You knw what, before this turns into another monotonous argument about why you love Toulon and claim them to be a huge success story i'll just make one point...

All of the info above, proving you were trying to justify Toulons love for French international rugby and you focus on the one little technicallity you beleive can try to win you the internet?

At least grow a sack and discuss the fact you manipulated figures to try to prove what you beleived, and that was Toulon contribute more than anyone else in the T14 to French international rugby (Well except for 3 other teams)

Only Clermont and Racing have more France players in the current France squad, than Toulon. That my friend is a fact.

I don't love Toulon. Not even in my top 3 favourite French sides. But the constant misinformation spread about them on this site needs to be put in it's place.

Well if we want to be consistent only Cleremont and Racing have more players in the squad is a fact, Toulon have more than anyone else except Racing and Cleremont very much isn't is it?! Because they don't!

Plus your facts about them having the biggest representation (except for ) is a side argument to what was mentioned that with all their internationals away they might have to field French players, but those 5 will be away also. So the point was made that Toulon didn't like playing French players, and well considering their squad is full of non French players, and some signings being brought in to probably replace French qualified players with non french qualified players ie Cooper Michalak and Nonu Mermoz it's a reasonable remark to make don't you think?

Then justify for us, if you don't love Toulon why did you feel the need to defend them with a total side argument that doesn't directly discuss the point made originally?

Fanster wrote:

Well if we want to be consistent only Cleremont and Racing have more players in the squad is a fact, Toulon have more than anyone else except Racing and Cleremont very much isn't is it?! Because they don't!

Plus your facts about them having the biggest representation (except for ) is a side argument to what was mentioned that with all their internationals away they might have to field French players, but those 5 will be away also. So the point was made that Toulon didn't like playing French players, and well considering their squad is full of non French players, and some signings being brought in to probably replace French qualified players with non french qualified players ie Cooper Michalak and Nonu Mermoz it's a reasonable remark to make don't you think?

They do field French players. Always have done. The original poitn was a sarcastic dig at Toulon's recruitment policy. So it needs to be pointed out that Toulon have a fine crop of French players as wll as a fine cohort of overseas players. The balance seems to do them well on the field.

Then justify for us, if you don't love Toulon why did you feel the need to defend them with a total side argument that doesn't directly discuss the point made originally?

Your post just reads like yet another jealous rant. I feel the need to defend them because it is blatantly obvious that they are misrepresented on here time and time again.

The dig was sarcastic in nature I agree, but it was a very good point. Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

Toulon would also have maybe looked for FQ players before looking further afield, I mean lets be honest Manoa is an athlete but not gifted technically, and POC is on the turn, are there not French locks who are as effective as these 2 around? For the same price?

Cooper and Nonu have been signed directly to replace Michalak and Mermoz have they not? Are you telling me there is no French qualified 10 or centre available? In this case lets be honest there probably isn't, but why is that?

Toulons recruitment policy is simple, the bigger the name the better the signing, with a handfull of token French players to keep the NGB happy. Unless you have proof they enjoy signing French qualified players, I mean the like of proof that rivals...

1) Less than half of their playing squad FQ

2) 14 signings for this season less than half FQ

3)8/14 signings looking for first team action (None of them FQ)

And for the record, when you claim someone has an agenda like 'jealousy' it doesn't strengthen your argument, it makes me feel sorry for you for not being able to deal with facts presented and respond accordingly.

I'm not a Toulon fan, not because of what theyve done, or what they've acheived, not even because of how the have done it, but how they have acted, how they conduct themselves, and how they put winning in front of everything, degenrating Rugby union to Footballs level on all counts!

Any pro Toulon person in my view has no right to think Rugby union is any better than football, or can have any opinion on onfield antics in my view, tough I know but very fair!