Irish RWC: Pick your Centres

Hi all,

Haven't posted here in a long time tbh but I did this for the last world cup and thought it would be good to do again.
I want to get a sense of what the Irish (and non-Irish) 606ers think the Irish squad should be.

I am taking it as near guaranteed that there will be a 18-13 split
6 props
3 hookers
4 locks
5 backrow

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres
5 outside backs

NOTICE: Please bare in mind this is the 606 squad selection. While certain players have been ruled out the hypothetical debate will continue. Who would YOU have in the team, not who do you think SCHMIDT will have in the team?

Centres: PICK 3

Fitzgerald -also in back 3 category
Has looked electric since his return from injury where he was strong in defence, had great basics and looked Leinster's most dangerous man in attack. Is a versatile player and has a high skill level. Is injured but expected to return.
McFadden -also in back 3 category
Has had a really wishy washy season where he's been injured a bit and playing some poor enough rugby. He is fast, strong, kicks well but perhaps doesn't have that extra dimension of intelligence. Is a Schmidt favourite.
Reid -
Has great distribution and is an intelligent runner. He works as a 2nd 5/8 but maybe hasn't had enough time in Leinster's first team let alone the Irish set up. There is a bit of class about him but we will need to see him at a higher level again.
Madigan-
Has played most of his rugby this year at 12 where he has played the 2nd 5/8 position well. Offering another kicking option, wide passing, an injection of pace and added decision making. He is off form but on his day is a class act.
Darcy -
The out of favour veteran is still a hard worker and an intelligent player however, he doesn't get over the gain line as often, is not an effective distributor, has no real kicking game and has started to make errors in defensive reads.
Marshall -
This man looked set for greatness a few seasons ago but head injuries have knocked the consistency of his gametime. He has not looked as good for Ulster as others looking for the shirt. Has bags of potential, it just needs to be realised ASAP.
McCloskey -
Has looked good whenever he has gone on to the field. He is an athlete, very strong and can shift both in a straight line and in subtle changes of direction. His skills and defense are good. How high is his ceiling?
Cave -
Has had an up and down ride this season. His preferred position has been taken by another at club and international level. He has excellent defense, is a good reader of the game, works very hard but maybe lacks the ability to step up to international level.
Payne -
Has played very well this season. Many think he is better at 15 and whether right or wrong he had a very good debut 6Nations at 13. His defense was excellent, worked hard on the kick chase, made good decisions and attacked well.
Henshaw -
Showed himself to be an immense 12, mainly in his defensive involvements. He chased kicks well and put in some of his own effectively. Was a source of go forward off first phase for his team and his discipline has been top drawer.
Earls - also in back 3 category
Hasn't played as much at 13 as in previous seasons and has found a regular home at 14 where he is turning in some excellent performances. His broken field running is very strong and his security under the high ball is excellent. His defense has improved and his error count is much lower.



Please discuss your reasons for voting before you vote as I have not put vote cancelling on and somebody's point of view may sway your decision.

It's only letting me pick one, pete

I've changed it to multiple choice now

But I don't under the rationale for including who we now know aren't going to be in the squad. It'll take three or four injuries in the centres for McCloskey or Marshall to feature.

I voted for Payne, Henshaw and Madigan. Intend to vote for McFadden and Earls as wing players for their versatility. Actually believe what would be heresy normally- that Bowe doesn't feature in my RWC squad.

Madigan and McFadden cover 12. Payne cover 13. Henshaw covers both. Now if Henshaw gets injured, you don't want just Madigan coming in at 12 because he's had a very mediocre season there and we need someone who hits more rucks and is more of a carrying threat in traffic. The ball playing 12 will be of limited use to us, the way we've been playing. We need McFadden to take up one of the back three spots as in my view he's the only back three player who plays 12 the way we need.

That leaves four back three spots and we want one of them to be a guy who can cover outside centre and one who can cover fullback.

Rob Kearney is first choice, obviously, as the squads specialist fullback. I would take Simon Zebo as cover for left wing and fullback (Payne also covers 15) and Andrew Trimble will always start in this team if he's anywhere near fit and in form. That leaves our final slot (versatile back who can cover 13 and 14) between Fitzgerald, Bowe and Earls. And I think Earls is in the best form.

I don't think Bowe has been playing his best rugby for a while. While he was at the Ospreys he was Irish win numero uno but since coming back to Ulster he's been outshone by Trimble who has forced him onto his less favoured left wing. McFadden has also been mediocre, but a guy who can play 11, 12, 13, 14 and place kick is the perfect squad player and bench option- plus we need the centre cover. Trimble for me means Bowe doesn't start on the right wing, Zebo is mainly better than him on the left and then Earls has just been in better form.

Right now I'm thinking;

PROPS
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Tadgh Furlong
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Richardt Strauss, Sean Cronin
LOCKS
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner Dan Tuohy, Iain Henderson
BACKROW
Peter O'Mahony, Sean O'Brien, Chris Henry, Jamie Heaslip, Jordi Murphy
SCRUM-HALF
Conor murray, Eoin Reddan, Isaac Boss
OUTHALF
Jonny Sexton, Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan
CENTRES
Robbie Henshaw, Jared Payne
BACK THREE
Fergus McFadden, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo, Andrew Trimble, Rob Kearney

It looks light when you list the players who are the specialist centres, but when three other players can play centre you're fine.

Whens the last time McFadden has played 12 or taken the kicks though?

Whenever he's played centre in the last year or two that I've seen it's been at 13. Not that there's a massive difference. But I  think his injuries this year has cost him a place.

10: sexton, Jackson, Madigan
11: zebo earls
12: henshaw Madigan sexton
13: Payne, henshaw, earls
14: Trimble, earls
15: Kearney, zebo Payne, earls, henshaw, madigan

3 SH
3 OH
7 outside backs

One of Bowe/Trimble/zebo/earls will miss out.

12 is the weak point. We don't want Madigan starting a big game but his place kicking and versatility will get him a place IMO.   Obviously we don't want to move Sexton from ten but 10:jackson 12: Sexton wouldn't be the worst for a big game.

I know Schmidt really likes Jones but I really dont think theres room for him in this squad.

I really don't want Jones in the squad.
I think he is a waste of a place with many more talented players available.

Payne, Madigan, Zebo, Bowe, Gilroy, Earls, Fitzgerald all have the skills to step up to play 15 if necessary against some of the weaker opposition.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I really don't want Jones in the squad.
I think he is a waste of a place with many more talented players available.

Payne, Madigan, Zebo, Bowe, Gilroy, Earls, Fitzgerald all have the skills to step up to play 15 if necessary against some of the weaker opposition.

Absolutely. Versatility will be a huge factor for all the other positions in the squad, I don't see any reason why Jones should be any different. But I'd say he will be in there.

If you look at the Wolfhounds game v Saxons, you will see exactly where Schmidt has everyone is in the pecking order. Schmidt in my opinion already has his 31 picked and he is now only looking at who he will bring in for injury cover.

IRELAND WOLFHOUNDS:
15 Felix Jones (capt); Note that Felix was captain. Felix is a talker and provides leadership that is lacking in every other back bar Sexton and Kearney. He is also a superb defender/tackler and very composed which comes in very handy when closing out a game.
14 Fergus McFadden Joe sees him as a winger, not a centre.
13 Keith Earls - the selection of Earls here ahead of McFadden & Fitzgerald (who was initially on the left wing until he had to withdraw with a stomack bug) suggests to me that is where Schmidt sees Earls.
12 Gordon D'Arcy - No Surprises here. Schmidt had a very short time to not only blood Payne & Henshaw as internationals, but also to develop a playing partnership. It was noticeable that they improved during the 6Ns from playing together. D'Arcy has the experience and match temperment to step in at any time. He has also played with Earls as well and Sexton.
11 Craig Gilroy ... rated after Fitzgerald. Joe is very hot on defence and I believe critical of Zebo's tackling technique. Another reason why he likes Felix so much.
10 Ian Madigan If Jackson was fit he probably would have started. Madigan has the advantage of having played a fair bit with the other back-up scrumhalfs.
9 Kieran Marmion Only obvious option at scrumhalf. I doubt if he will make the 31.

So to sum up, the pecking order (I'm only selecting primary position for each player)

15 Kearney, Felix Jones
14 Bowe, Trimble, McFadden
13 Payne, Earls
12 Henshaw, D'Arcy
11 Zebo*, Fitzgerald, Gilroy
10 Sexton, Jackson, Madigan
9   Murray, Reddan, Boss, Marmion

*I'd have Fitzgerald 1st option except for his injury record.

Agree with that Sin. Think Dave Kearney is ahead of Gilroy and McFadden though.

rodders wrote:Agree with that Sin. Think Dave Kearney is ahead of Gilroy and McFadden though.  

I'd forgotten him. His form hasn't been good. Think he is ahead of Gilroy but behind McFadden who seems to be a Schmidt favourite.

Jones is nailed on for the squad and the 23 shirt for the big games.
He is the only other player apart from Kearney who plays regularly at 15 for his club.
Having a specialist 15 on the bench causes the least disruption to the team in the event of an injury to a starting back three player as he can slot into any of these positions without having to rearrange the backline.
He is a very good full back.

Thats probably about right, the question is though when he has to drop a few of those backs will the lack of versatility of a Gilroy or a Felix Jones push them further down that pecking order? You say McFadden is a Schmidt favourite, but when you can cover 4 back line positions and you're a goal kicker a lot of coaches would be thinking of you come World Cup time. I think his versatility is going to get him on the plane.

Also, Trimble and Bowe amazingly haven't been fit at the same time for Ireland since Trimble broke into the first team in 2014 so I'm not really sure who is first choice there. I think Trimble has played better for Schmidt on the right wing than Bowe. He's got himself more involved, Bowe has drifted through games at times. But Trimble is obviously still coming back from injury so has no recent form. Interesting call.

Jones is just shy of being Test class, otherwise he would be a certainty. The problem for Schmidt is that Kearney and Payne are probably the only two Test class full backs he has at his disposal and he will not want to move Payne from starting Centre should Rob get injured.

Jones being the only other regular 15 therefore gets in the squad by default.

I think he thinks very highly of Jones. I would be extremely surprised if Payne was ever preferred to Jones at fullback under Schmidt.

The Great Aukster wrote:Jones is just shy of being Test class, otherwise he would be a certainty. The problem for Schmidt is that Kearney and Payne are probably the only two Test class full backs he has at his disposal and he will not want to move Payne from starting Centre should Rob get injured.

Jones being the only other regular 15 therefore gets in the squad by default.

I think Jones is as much of a Test Player as quite a few selected in the squad. Payne has never played fullback at test level (and it is a bit of a different ball game to Club level where he has played). Zebo & Earls have played fairly successfully at fullback in the past. Kearney is one of the best backs in the world under a high ball, but after that he is fairly average. His defence is actually very poor for a test class fullback, but he is a confident player and provides leadership in the backs.

While Payne is very good at attacking from fullback, defences are practically impregnable at international level. I don't think his kicking game would be up to international class either.

Whatever it is about Jones, every coach he has rates him very highly, much to the surprise of the armchair pundits.

I've said it before, but I think the key is that Felix has captained, and is clearly seen as having leadership qualities.

If Joe could fill 23 slots with players that have captained, he would, I think. I think it's also one of the reasons he likes Henry.

He's left footed as well. Joe likes a left and right footed kicker on the pitch and a mix of left and right footed players in the back 3.

I think he is right footed Rods. Joe does like his left and right footed players though on appropriate wing.

I also don't see any evidence that Joe sees Payne as a test class fullback in terms of his defence, kicking and fielding. We know all of that can be very good, but he's gone a year without playing 15 and has never done so for Ireland so he would at the very least need some gam time and I just see Schmidt having him focus on one position.

Payne to 15 is one of those interesting possibilities we might see in the warm-ups, but we are so thin at centre I think it's unlikely. I feel like Payne can make yards in contact, Henshaw can make yards in contact and everyone else is a bit lightweight. Earls can make yards too, I suppose, he has good feet.

Payne is poor under the high ball for a 15 so isn't the type of back player Schmidt goes for.

His running lines and counterattacking ability are superb though but don't fit with the way Ireland are playing.

Earls defense is poor so don't see him getting in - I would guess he's in the squad so Schmidt can work on his defense and breakdown work.

rodders wrote:Payne is poor under the high ball for a 15 so isn't the type of back player Schmidt goes for.

His running lines and counterattacking ability are superb though but don't fit with the way Ireland are playing.

Earls defense is poor so don't see him getting in - I would guess he's in the squad so Schmidt can work on his defense and breakdown work.

Rods, you will have to try harder than that!  

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Payne is poor under the high ball for a 15 so isn't the type of back player Schmidt goes for.

His running lines and counterattacking ability are superb though but don't fit with the way Ireland are playing.

Earls defense is poor so don't see him getting in - I would guess he's in the squad so Schmidt can work on his defense and breakdown work.

Rods, you will have to try harder than that!  

Any truth he's been told to shadow Fergus McFadden and Dave Kearney for the week?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Payne is poor under the high ball for a 15 so isn't the type of back player Schmidt goes for.

His running lines and counterattacking ability are superb though but don't fit with the way Ireland are playing.

Earls defense is poor so don't see him getting in - I would guess he's in the squad so Schmidt can work on his defense and breakdown work.

Rods, you will have to try harder than that!  

Any truth he's been told to shadow Fergus McFadden and Dave Kearney for the week?

Dave Kearney, Earls and Henderson are doing sprinting drills...

nah, its Mike Ross, Devin Toner and D Kearney who are doing the sprinting drills. Ross is the benchmark!

Payne and Henshaw performed very well together during the 6N but I still wish to see Henshaw at 13 for Ireland, he is more than a battering ram. I kind of thought that Payne would be better at 15 but he was very good at 13 so its a difficult one as to who plays 12 and 13 so I would leave it as it is.

D'Arcy should not be anywhere near the squad as far as I am concerned, brilliant performer in the past but he is the past.

Yeah there's a paucity of options. The two Stuarts, Olding and McCloskey, may well be the future in that position but the former is injured and the latter not selected. Cave is an intelligent player in attack and defence, but nothing the very best defences can't routinely deal with and he lacks the power and pace to really change that. D'Arcy is similar in that he's an experienced player who reads the game well and also has no longer has the physical attributes to worry anybody. Neither is likely to make any yards in contact at all or avoid getting swallowed up by the cover if they do get on the end of a clean break. Luke Marshall has lost out to the competition at Ulster and looks low on confidence. Noel Reid is not convincing in defence. Ian Madigan has had a mediocre season and often seems like a selfish player on the ball, trying to do it all himself.