Great News - Barnes will not be reffing any Ireland pool games...

First topic message reminder :

...unless a scheduled ref mysteriously retires or steps down at the last minute again. I predict he will be given Ireland's quarter though if we get there.

List of ref apointments here:

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/78669

The appointments for the knock-out stages will be made after the pool stage.

Irelands record under Barnes in the last 10 years:

Match List:

Sources:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/mar/24/england-referees-elite-panel
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/pascal-pape-appeals-10-week-ban-for-kneeing-jamie-heaslip-1.2120489
http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;orderby=date;spanmin1=01+jan+2005;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=team;view=match
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7370102/Henry-suspected-match-fixing-after-07-loss

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:Barnes is a poor communicator and talks at players. He should never ref internationals involving Wales as he went to school there.

Should Rolland not ever have reffed internationals involving France then?

Rolland didn't go to school in France. He went to school in Dublin. He represented Leinster & Ireland.

And no other team had a problem with him reffing them. Before the death threats he was the best ref in the world.

But what about his French parentage and all the time he spent in France?

Nah mate. Wayne Barnes has probably been the best in the world since 2007 .

FYI - Barnes only went to sixth form in Wales, a whopping 2 years! And nobody really considers Monmouth as part of Wales anyway . Nice try though.

He played rugby in Wales in probably his 2 most formative years. Considering his age, he probably played in the same schools competitions as most the Welsh teams.

Was there a point to all this? I'm kinda lost now.

Mods - please can we have an additional icon with a picture of Graham Chapman in his Major's uniform so that we can flag up when a thread is getting too silly to bother with?

Actually Barnes is uncannily like Graham Chapman in his major's uniform - and not just in looks. Having an emoticon would be great to wheel out for all the refereeing injustices that will inevitably crop up during the season.

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Indeed, it's not like Barnes' patchy decision-making has ever seen him dropped from the Elite Referee Panel before - oh, wait a minute...

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Yes, he is very inconsistent in how he refs a single game. He will be whistle happy in the 1st half and then let things go in the 2nd half. I suppose he is consistent in that though, he is consistently inconsistent. He is certainly consistent in blowing Ireland out of the game. I agree with you that Ireland should get to grips with how he ref's though, although there is a question mark as to whether he ref's the same way in games not involving Ireland? The strange thing is that he is the only ref that Ireland have such an issue with. Is it really just his style of reffing?

Are Ireland, sitting 3rd in world rankings, really such a stupid team?

Munchkin wrote:

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Yes, he is very inconsistent in how he refs a single game. He will be whistle happy in the 1st half and then let things go in the 2nd half. I suppose he is consistent in that though, he is consistently inconsistent. He is certainly consistent in blowing Ireland out of the game. I agree with you that Ireland should get to grips with how he ref's though, although there is a question mark as to whether he ref's the same way in games not involving Ireland? The strange thing is that he is the only ref that Ireland have such an issue with. Is it really just his style of reffing?

Are Ireland, sitting 3rd in world rankings, really such a stupid team?

Yes if they can't figure out what they doing wrong when Barnes refs. his style of reffing isn't wrong, might be different but Ireland need to realise that and adapt. Every single ref has different ways of reffing.

Some fans on here are a tad hypocritcal anyway, they complain when other nations fans moan about a ref but then think it's fine to place the entire blame on a loss to the ref.

As much as I don't blame Barnes for the loss, I do think his style of reffing is entirely wrong. If an infringement is worthy of being penalised in the first half, the same should be equally worthy of a penalty in the second half. It is that sort of reffing that appears hypocritical, and it's that sort of reffing that casts doubts on impartiality. Barnes is a poor ref.

So you think the Ireland team is really stupid. I was very frustrated with them in that first half for not catching on to the ref much quicker, but the more I think on it, the more I have doubts about the fairness of his reffing. Sure Ireland coughed up some needless penalties, but there are some that I had questioned at the time, as much as I questioned the fact that Barnes didn't penalise Wales for the same type of infringements later on.

I do try to be objective, and I don't think I have ever made the claim that a ref was deliberately targeting one team for harsh treatment, although Hodges would be at the top of my list if I did, but neither am I convinced the amount of penalties were all down to Ireland not adapting to the ref quick enough. It doesn't make sense for several reasons. One - I don't think Ireland are a stupid team, two - Schmidt would have done his homework on Barnes , three - the Ireland team are well aware of Barnes and really should know how to play him.

I watch most internationals involving any of the 6N's sides, but I honestly can't remember thinking the same of Barnes when he has reffed other games not involving Ireland. Now I accept that it could be more that my own bias is much less likely to come into play as a neutral. I don't know.

What I think I will do is watch the game again, and try and objectively focus on Barnes performance. I will then try and dig up any complaints about Barnes performance against other teams in the 6N's.... once I get a bit of time.

nathan wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Yes, he is very inconsistent in how he refs a single game. He will be whistle happy in the 1st half and then let things go in the 2nd half. I suppose he is consistent in that though, he is consistently inconsistent. He is certainly consistent in blowing Ireland out of the game. I agree with you that Ireland should get to grips with how he ref's though, although there is a question mark as to whether he ref's the same way in games not involving Ireland? The strange thing is that he is the only ref that Ireland have such an issue with. Is it really just his style of reffing?

Are Ireland, sitting 3rd in world rankings, really such a stupid team?

Yes if they can't figure out what they doing wrong when Barnes refs. his style of reffing isn't wrong, might be different but Ireland need to realise that and adapt. Every single ref has different ways of reffing.

Some fans on here are a tad hypocritcal anyway, they complain when other nations fans moan about a ref but then think it's fine to place the entire blame on a loss to the ref.

Come on. Irish fans never criticise a ref and never ever boo a kicker. Thought this was common knowledge.b

Munchkin wrote:As much as I don't blame Barnes for the loss, I do think his style of reffing is entirely wrong. If an infringement is worthy of being penalised in the first half, the same should be equally worthy of a penalty in the second half. It is that sort of reffing that appears hypocritical, and it's that sort of reffing that casts doubts on impartiality. Barnes is a poor ref.

So you think the Ireland team is really stupid. I was very frustrated with them in that first half for not catching on to the ref much quicker, but the more I think on it, the more I have doubts about the fairness of his reffing. Sure Ireland coughed up some needless penalties, but there are some that I had questioned at the time, as much as I questioned the fact that Barnes didn't penalise Wales for the same type of infringements later on.

I do try to be objective, and I don't think I have ever made the claim that a ref was deliberately targeting one team for harsh treatment, although Hodges would be at the top of my list if I did, but neither am I convinced the amount of penalties were all down to Ireland not adapting to the ref quick enough. It doesn't make sense for several reasons. One - I don't think Ireland are a stupid team, two - Schmidt would have done his homework on Barnes , three - the Ireland team are well aware of Barnes and really should know how to play him.

I watch most internationals involving any of the 6N's sides, but I honestly can't remember thinking the same of Barnes when he has reffed other games not involving Ireland. Now I accept that it could be more that my own bias is much less likely to come into play as a neutral. I don't know.

What I think I will do is watch the game again, and try and objectively focus on Barnes performance. I will then try and dig up any complaints about Barnes performance against other teams in the 6N's.... once I get a bit of time.

Shocking post.

Shameless, some would say

nathan wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Yes, he is very inconsistent in how he refs a single game. He will be whistle happy in the 1st half and then let things go in the 2nd half. I suppose he is consistent in that though, he is consistently inconsistent. He is certainly consistent in blowing Ireland out of the game. I agree with you that Ireland should get to grips with how he ref's though, although there is a question mark as to whether he ref's the same way in games not involving Ireland? The strange thing is that he is the only ref that Ireland have such an issue with. Is it really just his style of reffing?

Are Ireland, sitting 3rd in world rankings, really such a stupid team?

Yes if they can't figure out what they doing wrong when Barnes refs. his style of reffing isn't wrong, might be different but Ireland need to realise that and adapt. Every single ref has different ways of reffing.

Some fans on here are a tad hypocritcal anyway, they complain when other nations fans moan about a ref but then think it's fine to place the entire blame on a loss to the ref.

Well said. Also I don't think I have ever heard Irish fans being sympathetic when rugby fans have had to put up with the shocking refereeing of Irish/French Alain Rolland.

Personally I think Wayne Barnes is one of the best refs in the world. Thought that the Wales vs Ireland game was a cracker and Barnes contributed to that.

Poorfour wrote:Mods - please can we have an additional icon with a picture of Graham Chapman in his Major's uniform so that we can flag up when a thread is getting too silly to bother with?

If you dont like the thread perhaps consider starting your own one on something that interests you? Its not that difficult really.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Munchkin wrote:One of the reasons Barnes is a poor ref, in my opinion, is that he lacks consistency. By that I mean he will be whistle happy for much of the 1st half, making some very harsh calls, and then relax with the whistle and penalise less the second half. If an apparent infringement is worth blowing up at all, it is worth doing so consistently.
If you look at the last Ireland v Wales game, Barnes penalised Ireland for the slightest infringement, whether they should actually have been penalised at all is another debate, and later on when Wales were guilty of committing the same infringements Barnes ignores and allows them to play on.
You can see how that may be interpreted as bias. I don't think it necessarily is though. I think it's just how he refs. Ireland should be wise to this, they're not, and so the fault of losing that game lies with them.

Exactly. There was a period of about 40 phases in the second half when Ireland was pounding at the Wales defensive line and Barnes couldnt find his whistle. By contrast in the opening 20 minutes when Wales had all the posession Barnes penalised Ireland multiple times in short sucession for similar things that he completely ignored in the second half. That in my mind seperated two fairly similar teams on the day.

He is a terrible ref and it is a real shame he didnt retire for business reasons too.

So you managed to completely ignore the fact that somebody else, in fact a few, have stated that it is their opinion that it is up to Ireland to manage Barnes's refereeing style. This is the exact point I made. Since you didn't question Munchkin's posting, you must presumably agree with all of it?

No I dont agree with the last part. It seems a bit of a contradiction. How can you be wise to a ref who is inconsistant? If you are expecting the ref to apply the same rules to you as he does to your opposition but he doesnt that is not your fault it is the refs. That is the issue with Barnes as I see it.

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think we have won something like 3 of the last 13 or so games Barnes has reffed. I definitely think he is a dodgy ref. At the very least he is outrageously inconsistent. Basically he isnt fit for International games IMO. Too much at stake to have amatures like him on board.

So you point to a stat that's says he consistently makes Ireland lose and then call him outrageously inconsistent.

Perhaps Ireland just aren't very clever and can't understand what he is after.... Usually not laying all over the ball and not taking players out of the ball.

Yes, he is very inconsistent in how he refs a single game. He will be whistle happy in the 1st half and then let things go in the 2nd half. I suppose he is consistent in that though, he is consistently inconsistent. He is certainly consistent in blowing Ireland out of the game. I agree with you that Ireland should get to grips with how he ref's though, although there is a question mark as to whether he ref's the same way in games not involving Ireland? The strange thing is that he is the only ref that Ireland have such an issue with. Is it really just his style of reffing?

Are Ireland, sitting 3rd in world rankings, really such a stupid team?

Yes if they can't figure out what they doing wrong when Barnes refs. his style of reffing isn't wrong, might be different but Ireland need to realise that and adapt. Every single ref has different ways of reffing.

Some fans on here are a tad hypocritcal anyway, they complain when other nations fans moan about a ref but then think it's fine to place the entire blame on a loss to the ref.

Well said. Also I don't think I have ever heard Irish fans being sympathetic when rugby fans have had to put up with the shocking refereeing of Irish/French Alain Rolland.

Personally I think Wayne Barnes is one of the best refs in the world. Thought that the Wales vs Ireland game was a cracker and Barnes contributed to that.

Rolland got it right for sending off Warburton for the tip tackle. And whats more he has been consistent in red carding players for tip tackles, most especially French players.

beshocked wrote:

Well said. Also I don't think I have ever heard Irish fans being sympathetic when rugby fans have had to put up with the shocking refereeing of Irish/French Alain Rolland.

Personally I think Wayne Barnes is one of the best refs in the world. Thought that the Wales vs Ireland game was a cracker and Barnes contributed to that.

I would agree with you Beshocked had a French player done something similar to a Welsh player and had Rolland ignored it. That tends to be the case with Barnes, he applies different standards to different teams and it is infuriating.

To be honest I did find the red against Warburton harsh but it was justifyable under the law.

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Well said. Also I don't think I have ever heard Irish fans being sympathetic when rugby fans have had to put up with the shocking refereeing of Irish/French Alain Rolland.

Personally I think Wayne Barnes is one of the best refs in the world. Thought that the Wales vs Ireland game was a cracker and Barnes contributed to that.

I would agree with you Beshocked had a French player done something similar to a Welsh player and had Rolland ignored it. That tends to be the case with Barnes, he applies different standards to different teams and it is infuriating.

To be honest I did find the red against Warburton harsh but it was justifyable under the law.

Warburton also got a 3 weeks ban for it.

Beshocked - you can watch Frenchman (sic) Rolland sending off Frenchman Florian Fritz for a tip tackle on Englishman Tom Varndell here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_OOKEbRzGQ

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Munchkin wrote:One of the reasons Barnes is a poor ref, in my opinion, is that he lacks consistency. By that I mean he will be whistle happy for much of the 1st half, making some very harsh calls, and then relax with the whistle and penalise less the second half. If an apparent infringement is worth blowing up at all, it is worth doing so consistently.
If you look at the last Ireland v Wales game, Barnes penalised Ireland for the slightest infringement, whether they should actually have been penalised at all is another debate, and later on when Wales were guilty of committing the same infringements Barnes ignores and allows them to play on.
You can see how that may be interpreted as bias. I don't think it necessarily is though. I think it's just how he refs. Ireland should be wise to this, they're not, and so the fault of losing that game lies with them.

Exactly. There was a period of about 40 phases in the second half when Ireland was pounding at the Wales defensive line and Barnes couldnt find his whistle. By contrast in the opening 20 minutes when Wales had all the posession Barnes penalised Ireland multiple times in short sucession for similar things that he completely ignored in the second half. That in my mind seperated two fairly similar teams on the day.

He is a terrible ref and it is a real shame he didnt retire for business reasons too.

So you managed to completely ignore the fact that somebody else, in fact a few, have stated that it is their opinion that it is up to Ireland to manage Barnes's refereeing style. This is the exact point I made. Since you didn't question Munchkin's posting, you must presumably agree with all of it?

No I dont agree with the last part. It seems a bit of a contradiction. How can you be wise to a ref who is inconsistant? If you are expecting the ref to apply the same rules to you as he does to your opposition but he doesnt that is not your fault it is the refs. That is the issue with Barnes as I see it.

It depends on how the ref is inconsistent. Barnes is inconsistent in that he will be whistle happy in the first half, and lenient in the second. A team can certainly be wise to that. In the first half of that game it can be argued that Ireland should have got to grips with Barnes refereeing after being penalised the first couple of times. They didn't. They weren't wise to it, or so it appears.
I do have some questions about Barnes refereeing on the day, and I'm going to watch the game again to see if I can find answers.

An experiment should be done by some investigative sports journalist.  He'd need the cooperation of both team owners and the ref....oh and the code administrators..... and the police....and bookies....     Okay, so it probably could never happen under the right conditions and still remain legal!  But I'll still outline the theory of my experiment.

The experiment would be for the ref to show how much in control he can be of the result of any given game - WITHOUT bringing suspicion onto himself.  He would be given a desired scoreline by the journalist and he's have to get as close to it as possible without irritating the players of either side into thinking he was a crook.

This is not about Barnes BTW, just a theory idea based on all refs analysed under the thread presumptions.

You see my main concern is the ability of fans to delude themselves.  
I believe Barnes is an honourable ref who obviously feels Ireland just don't play a game that he recognises as being the one he knows.  You have that sometimes - he's from another League and Nation where for quite a time the styles of Provinces and English clubs were quite different.
I'm sure the same lost-in-translation effect happens elsewhere around the rugby world and indeed in other sports.
So we're as frustrating for Barnes (evidently) as he is frustrating for us (evidently)

But - in a general sense - taking in all field games, and all refs, I personally think it's naïve to think they don't have the skills available to them to be able to 'man manage' a game to their liking IF they were dishonest and deceitful enough to do it.

And just to take it away from any inference to Barnes completely - in the GAA/Gaelic games there is often in some years some very questionable results coming in - or should I say, there are some very peculiar Draws popping up all over the place when replays might come in very handy for Profits in any calendar year.....

You could call someone who questions financially juicy Draws suspect as being overly cynical.  But the truth is that money is money in sports that want it and Croke Park filled twice for one game is better than Croke Park filled once.  So whilst not picking on any ref in particular, I question the habits of Drawdomism as it often relates to attractive games against two well backed sides.  Do I say things are shady?  No.  I say questions can be legitimately asked when seemingly uncanny things happen in games where so many points can be scored (easier than in football for example) and yet such a large number of draws appear to be commonplace.  

A mathematics scientist might legitimately question whether the theory of how many times a draw might happen in such games (where points can be scored through goals and across a bar) conflicts with the truth of just how many times it happens.

I suppose my point is simply that there are people out there who think a ref is never and can never be manipulative of a result.  I say there is probably millions of circumstantial anecdotes from sports all over the globe (from school kid stuff right up to the highest paid professional sports) that would seriously question the solidity of any such puritanical belief.

The thing that always gets me in the kinds of conversations we have here is that there is always so much focus on just one incident, and its usually the one at the death when the crucial penalty was or was not awarded etc, when there have been 80 minutes of other decisions, sometimes made when the evidence affecting those decisions is far from certain.

Teams, players and referees are not perfect, and have good and bad days. Some referees are overly pedantic and that can be frustrating when teams don't adapt. Some can be too loose in their interpretations which can be frustrating for a team that has a clear advantage in a given area negated by those interpretations.

Its very easy to perceive bias if you ignore every 50/50 decision in your favour and pick up on everyone against.

lostinwales wrote:The thing that always gets me in the kinds of conversations we have here is that there is always so much focus on just one incident, and its usually the one at the death when the crucial penalty was or was not awarded etc,  when there have been 80 minutes of other decisions, sometimes made when the evidence affecting those decisions is far from certain.

Teams, players and referees are not perfect, and have good and bad days. Some referees are overly pedantic and that can be frustrating when teams don't adapt. Some can be too loose in their interpretations which can be frustrating for a team that has a clear advantage in a given area negated by those interpretations.

Its very easy to perceive bias if you ignore every 50/50 decision in your favour and pick up on everyone against.

Review the list of Ireland games that I have posted in the OP that Barnes has reffed in the last ten years and tell me there arent lots of incidents.

He plays God way too much and decides which teams he wants to apply the laws strictly to and which he wants to gain momentum. More often than not the laws are applied strictly to Ireland.

I dont know how you or anyone else can defend him when the evidence is there for all to see.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The thing that always gets me in the kinds of conversations we have here is that there is always so much focus on just one incident, and its usually the one at the death when the crucial penalty was or was not awarded etc,  when there have been 80 minutes of other decisions, sometimes made when the evidence affecting those decisions is far from certain.

Teams, players and referees are not perfect, and have good and bad days. Some referees are overly pedantic and that can be frustrating when teams don't adapt. Some can be too loose in their interpretations which can be frustrating for a team that has a clear advantage in a given area negated by those interpretations.

Its very easy to perceive bias if you ignore every 50/50 decision in your favour and pick up on everyone against.

Review the list of Ireland games that I have posted in the OP that Barnes has reffed in the last ten years and tell me there arent lots of incidents.

He plays God way too much and decides which teams he wants to apply the laws strictly to and which he wants to gain momentum. More often than not the laws are applied strictly to Ireland.

I dont know how you or anyone else can defend him when the evidence is there for all to see.

Do you know, I'm starting to feel quite pleased that Ireland have allegedly have been so hard done by under Barnes's officiating. I didn't originally, but this constant paranoia has changed my opinion.

Do you have anything intelligent to offer Jimpy? "Paranoia" suggests there is no evidence. The evidence is right in front of you.

GunsGerms wrote:Do you have anything intelligent to offer Jimpy? "Paranoia" suggests there is no evidence. The evidence is right in front of you.

Yet another thread degenerates to the slow motion equivalent of two (or more) guys in a field just standing up and shouting at each other.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Do you have anything intelligent to offer Jimpy? "Paranoia" suggests there is no evidence. The evidence is right in front of you.

You've just redefined irony. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so petty.

You really are starting to come across as a dunce. You rubbish the evidence as petty yet Barnes was dropped from the panel of elite refs for a performance as ref in an Ireland v Wales game and he has been accused of match fixing by a high profile manager.

It doesnt get much more evident than that that he isnt up to the requisite level. All you have done is demonstrate that you dont understand the meaning of the word irony and that you dont seem capable of piecing together an intelligent rebuttal to what I am saying.

lostinwales wrote:Yet another thread degenerates to the slow motion equivalent of two (or more) guys in a field just standing up and shouting at each other.

Try mounting an intelligent aguement to debate your case then.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Yet another thread degenerates to the slow motion equivalent of two (or more) guys in a field just standing up and shouting at each other.

Try mounting an intelligent aguement to debate your case then.

I have expressed an opinion and its different from yours, and it seems nothing that has been said has shifted your viewpoint at all. I don't think there is anything meaningful left to say as the shouting changes nothing.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The thing that always gets me in the kinds of conversations we have here is that there is always so much focus on just one incident, and its usually the one at the death when the crucial penalty was or was not awarded etc,  when there have been 80 minutes of other decisions, sometimes made when the evidence affecting those decisions is far from certain.

Teams, players and referees are not perfect, and have good and bad days. Some referees are overly pedantic and that can be frustrating when teams don't adapt. Some can be too loose in their interpretations which can be frustrating for a team that has a clear advantage in a given area negated by those interpretations.

Its very easy to perceive bias if you ignore every 50/50 decision in your favour and pick up on everyone against.

Review the list of Ireland games that I have posted in the OP that Barnes has reffed in the last ten years and tell me there arent lots of incidents.

He plays God way too much and decides which teams he wants to apply the laws strictly to and which he wants to gain momentum. More often than not the laws are applied strictly to Ireland.

I dont know how you or anyone else can defend him when the evidence is there for all to see.

Do you know, I'm starting to feel quite pleased that Ireland have allegedly have been so hard done by under Barnes's officiating. I didn't originally, but this constant paranoia has changed my opinion.

Nothing alleged about this little bit of officiating from Barnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

Even Gatland said Davies should have been red carded after the game.

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Do you have anything intelligent to offer Jimpy? "Paranoia" suggests there is no evidence. The evidence is right in front of you.

You've just redefined irony. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so petty.

You really are starting to come across as a dunce. You rubbish the evidence as petty yet Barnes was dropped from the panel of elite refs for a performance as ref in an Ireland v Wales game and he has been accused of match fixing by a high profile manager.

It doesnt get much more evident than that that he isnt up to the requisite level. All you have done is demonstrate that you dont understand the meaning of the word irony and that you dont seem capable of piecing together an intelligent rebuttal to what I am saying.

I'm not rubbishing evidence as petty. You're being petty. Petty, paranoid and small minded.

You honestly think Barnes isn't up to the requisite level for international refereeing? And you dare suggest that I'm a dunce and don't understand irony?

Sin é wrote:

Nothing alleged about this little bit of officiating from Barnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

Even Gatland said Davies should have been red carded after the game.

Yeah it should have been red. But Barnes didn't see it and went with touch judge recommendation.... So there you have it. And at least he was consistent in this game - he later sin binned Ferris for the same offence . Good Wales win that lead to another Grand Slam. Barnes lined his pockets at the betting shop that year.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Yet another thread degenerates to the slow motion equivalent of two (or more) guys in a field just standing up and shouting at each other.

Try mounting an intelligent aguement to debate your case then.

I have expressed an opinion and its different from yours, and it seems nothing that has been said has shifted your viewpoint at all. I don't think there is anything meaningful left to say as the shouting changes nothing.

You have to be fair but Im not convinced that you have looked at the history of games Ireland have had under Barnes and objectively considered the number of incidents and anomolies that have occurred in these games and formed your opinions on the debate presented to you in the article accordingly.

I believe that you are basing your opinion on Barnes on your experiences of him which isnt exactly what this article is about. It is my intention to demonstrate why Ireland's chances of world cup success are greatly increased if we avoid Wayne Barnes altogether. I think that is without question.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nothing alleged about this little bit of officiating from Barnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

Even Gatland said Davies should have been red carded after the game.

Yeah it should have been red. But Barnes didn't see it and went with touch judge recommendation.... So there you have it. And at least he was consistent in this game - he later sin binned Ferris for the same offence . Good Wales win that lead to another Grand Slam. Barnes lined his pockets at the betting shop that year.

I was at the ground, the whole stadium saw it including Barnes who was right beside the incident.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nothing alleged about this little bit of officiating from Barnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

Even Gatland said Davies should have been red carded after the game.

Yeah it should have been red. But Barnes didn't see it and went with touch judge recommendation.... So there you have it. And at least he was consistent in this game - he later sin binned Ferris for the same offence . Good Wales win that lead to another Grand Slam. Barnes lined his pockets at the betting shop that year.

So he is incompetent or he bottled it. Pearson saw it - surely Barnes would have instructed his assistants to just describe it?

Both Pearson and Barnes were dropped from the elite panel after this game. That tells you all you need to know.

Both Ferris and Davies were given yellow cards. The case against Ferris was thrown out by the citing comissioner and Davies got a 7 week ban. This is a great example of why Barnes should not be allowed ref Ireland games.

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nothing alleged about this little bit of officiating from Barnes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

Even Gatland said Davies should have been red carded after the game.

Yeah it should have been red. But Barnes didn't see it and went with touch judge recommendation.... So there you have it. And at least he was consistent in this game - he later sin binned Ferris for the same offence . Good Wales win that lead to another Grand Slam. Barnes lined his pockets at the betting shop that year.

I was at the ground, the whole stadium saw it including Barnes who was right beside the incident.

There is a big laugh in the stadium when Barnes announces 'he saw nothing'!

Jimpy wrote:

I'm not rubbishing evidence as petty. You're being petty. Petty, paranoid and small minded.

You honestly think Barnes isn't up to the requisite level for international refereeing? And you dare suggest that I'm a dunce and don't understand irony?

You clearly are a dunce. He was dropped from the elite panel in the past that in itself suggests he doesnt meet the grade. Still dont get it?

Jimpy come on wake up please. You are making a show of yourself.

So he made a mistake was punished for it but is back on the panel now. Those bastards picking the elite panel obviously know nothing...

lostinwales wrote:So he made a mistake was punished for it but is back on the panel now. Those bastards picking the elite panel obviously know nothing...

Oh just forget it, you wont get him to consider that he might be wrong.

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

I'm not rubbishing evidence as petty. You're being petty. Petty, paranoid and small minded.

You honestly think Barnes isn't up to the requisite level for international refereeing? And you dare suggest that I'm a dunce and don't understand irony?

You clearly are a dunce. He was dropped from the elite panel in the past that in itself suggests he doesnt meet the grade. Still dont get it?

Jimpy come on wake up please. You are making a show of yourself.

I'd imagine the only reason he made the world cup ref panel is because it wouldn't look too good if there were no English referees reffing in the England world cup (JP Doyle is Irish).

lostinwales wrote:So he made a mistake was punished for it but is back on the panel now. Those bastards picking the elite panel obviously know nothing...

He has made a catalogue of mistakes and bizarre refereeing performances. Im still not convinced you have reviewed the match list. You can add the '07 NZ v France game where NZ had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42 and making only 73 tackles compared with France's 331 but yet lost 20-18 effectively because according the Henry, Barnes ignored up to 40 penalty offenses.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7370102/Henry-suspected-match-fixing-after-07-loss

Jimpy wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So he made a mistake was punished for it but is back on the panel now. Those bastards picking the elite panel obviously know nothing...

Oh just forget it, you wont get him to consider that he might be wrong.

Neither of you have actually put together any compelling arguement whatsoever to convince me that glut of bizarre referreeing performances and errors by Barnes indicate anything other than the fact that he is actually quite a poor ref if he isnt in fact actually quite biased against certain teams.

Once again all the evidence you need is there in front of you. Choose to ignore it if you wish but dont expect me to change my mind if you arent capable of putting forward a good reason to do so.

Guns, you're coming across a bit like cut-price grey ghost.

An off-white ghost maybe?

Beige spectre?

Cyril wrote:Guns, you're coming across a bit like cut-price grey ghost.

An off-white ghost maybe?

Beige spectre?

Thats fine Cyril. I just feel strongly about the subject. At least I can back up what I am saying with actual events, not sure Ghost could always do that nor am I sure he even cared about that half the time.

I know you won't consider these arguments to be compelling but he has been appointed to the elite ref panel which suggests his peers consider him to be good enough, and the fact that he was appointed (and then reappointed) carries every bit as much weight if not more than his removal.

He continues to be given high profile games to officiate, so that the powers that be continue to consider him to be amongst the best that they can find.

He also reffed Ireland against Wales at the Millenium stadium in 2009 in the Grand Slam match. Please tell me who won that one?

lostinwales wrote:I know you won't consider these arguments to be compelling but he has been appointed to the elite ref panel which suggests his peers consider him to be good enough, and the fact that he was appointed (and then reappointed) carries every bit as much weight if not more than his removal.

He continues to be given high profile games to officiate, so that the powers that be continue to consider him to be amongst the best that they can find.

He also reffed Ireland against Wales at the Millenium stadium in 2009 in the Grand Slam match. Please tell me who won that one?

Wales were given a last minute penalty to win that match. Jones missed. It was not the only time Wales were given last minute penalties against Ireland yet Ireland can go through over 30 phases in the dying minutes of games and Barnes cant find his whistle. Odd?

I think its rather impressive that Ireland can go through 30 odd phases without committing a penalty offense or messing up. That also suggests that the Welsh defense was very strong that day

lostinwales wrote:I know you won't consider these arguments to be compelling but he has been appointed to the elite ref panel which suggests his peers consider him to be good enough, and the fact that he was appointed (and then reappointed) carries every bit as much weight if not more than his removal.

He continues to be given high profile games to officiate, so that the powers that be continue to consider him to be amongst the best that they can find.

He also reffed Ireland against Wales at the Millenium stadium in 2009 in the Grand Slam match. Please tell me who won that one?

Seriously, you think the RFU would be happy to stage a world cup in England and not have one of their elite refs involved?

Ireland has won 3 games with Barnes as ref and the Millenium stadium game for the GS was pretty close. ROG and his drop goal remember.

Sin é wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I know you won't consider these arguments to be compelling but he has been appointed to the elite ref panel which suggests his peers consider him to be good enough, and the fact that he was appointed (and then reappointed) carries every bit as much weight if not more than his removal.

He continues to be given high profile games to officiate, so that the powers that be continue to consider him to be amongst the best that they can find.

He also reffed Ireland against Wales at the Millenium stadium in 2009 in the Grand Slam match. Please tell me who won that one?

Seriously, you think the RFU would be happy to stage a world cup in England and not have one of their elite refs involved?

Ireland has won 3 games with Barnes as ref and the Millenium stadium game for the GS was pretty close. ROG and his drop goal remember.

I was unaware that that had anything to do with the RFU. It doesn't always have to be about politics

lostinwales wrote:I think its rather impressive that Ireland can go through 30 odd phases without committing a penalty offense or messing up. That also suggests that the Welsh defense was very strong that day

Team Ireland are very disciplined and have an illustrious history of multiphase play (well Munster does anyway).