US Open Day 1 - I'm Your Venus, I'm Your Dolgo, Your Navarro

First topic message reminder :

I will try my best to match the standard set by JHM 

We have Djokovic, Nishikori, Nadal and some guy called Cillic all in action today.

In the words of Delia: "Let's be avin you!"

Easy 4th set for Murray.

It Must Be Love wrote:I didn't think he was hitting that many short balls at all, his length was good, his problem was the unforced errors and crap second serve.

Sometimes I don't know what you are seeing when you watch nadal. Even when you are critical of his form you seem to have blinders to certain things. The first two sets- there where multiple times he hit short balls that a top player would move in on and put away- coric was too far behind baseline or incapable of doing it so would continue the rally. Watch it again. It's so clear. He let Rafa off the hook in the middle of many rallies. Guess it's just an honest difference of opinion. I think we both agree- that wasn't a nadal ready to beat Novak.

Why must Nadal be ready now to beat Novak? Nadal always starts slow but works his way through the draw to be ready for the later rounds! It's just like Novak struggling through the draws at RG but still managed to beat Fed or Murray there to reach the final.

Rafa was serving very high % of first serves so it's good for him. Coric is a good first round test for Rafa and imo had it not for the DFs Rafa might even win in straight sets.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Why must Nadal be ready now to beat Novak?  Nadal always starts slow but works his way through the draw to be ready for the later rounds!  It's just like Novak struggling through the draws at RG but still managed to beat Fed or Murray there to reach the final.

Because we have seen Novak and other players, Rafa in the past included, start slow but hit their best form later in the tournament, but we haven't seen that from Rafa in a long time. All we can go on now is his current form. Until we see him actually hit his best form against a top opponent for a whole match- then it's just wishful thinking because the evidence of nearly a year tells us he won't. Maybe he surprises. I don't see this signs though. He's still patchy, mis timing, poor second serves, low confidence. His seemingly big adjustment has been to move closer to the baseline in return and he looks uncomfortable and late on his reaction time playing there.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Rafa was serving very high % of first serves so it's good for him. Coric is a good first round test for Rafa and imo had it not for the DFs Rafa might even win in straight sets.

Yes, take out any players mistakes like df's and they might win in straight sets. Smh.

This is all still too harsh tbh. We gave Federer a year (2013) to sort out his back trouble and raquet flip flopping, Murray needed 18 months, Rafas earned enough credit to be given a year to sort out what is now a list of physical complaints and loss in confidence

I would agree with you on that Temp. At this time last year Andy had dropped to number 11 and some of his supporters (myself included) were beginning to fear that he would not get back to near the top of the game. Think that next year will be the proof of whether Rafa can get back to close to his best or not.

temporary21 wrote:This is all still too harsh tbh. We gave Federer a year (2013) to sort out his back trouble and raquet flip flopping, Murray needed 18 months, Rafas earned enough credit to be given a year to sort out what is now a list of physical complaints and loss in confidence

That really isn't correct in the case of federer at least. His back problems started in Indian wells 2013 and was continuously hurting and being reaggravated for nearly the whole year. In other words, he was playing with and through the problem. By the time he and his team had it under control towards the end of the year- a training block and rest after the wtf brought him back to good form for 2014 which he built on. Maybe Murray is similar but he had an actual back surgery. A laminectomy. Rafa had an appendectomy which top athletes like nfl, mlb players have been fully back to playing form, taking hits, tackles, intense efforts in two- three weeks after surgery, he had a complicated sounding but in reality 30 minute outpatient stem cell treatment on his back which leaves you sore for a day or two. He didn't have an evasive long recovery procedure like Murray. Rafa and his team have said all year he feels great, his knees best they've felt in years,etc. that's different than federers 2013 problems or murrays post surgery recovery.

I agree TRuffin, I still don't know what injury Rafa is supposed to be recovering from. It just cannot be the appendix, that is nothing.

Maybe it's the hair loss??

Throw that man the badger Agassi wore!

Nadal is physically absolutely fine, there's no evidence of any injury issues. He just hasn't got his game back to the right level (yet?).

TRuffin wrote:

Because we have seen Novak and other players, Rafa in the past included, start slow but hit their best form later in the tournament, but we haven't seen that from Rafa in a long time.  All we can go on now is his current form. Until we see him actually hit his best form against a top opponent for a whole match- then it's just wishful thinking because the evidence of nearly a year tells us he won't.  Maybe he surprises.   I don't see this signs though.  

Agree with these completely. Nadal playing a decent R1 match, and then stepping it up later in the tournament was expected before. Now he's played a decent R1 match, but no evidence from this year he'll step it up from there.

It Must Be Love wrote:Nadal is physically absolutely fine, there's no evidence of any injury issues. He just hasn't got his game back to the right level (yet?).

You are the one who has been using the term"permanent decline" in regard to Rafa. Even last year. Do you think that's the case still, or is he going to make it back?

TRuffin wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:Nadal is physically absolutely fine, there's no evidence of any injury issues. He just hasn't got his game back to the right level (yet?).

You are the one who has been using the term"permanent decline" in regard to Rafa.  Even last year.  Do you think that's the case still, or is he going to make it back?

I'm certain he's not going to come back to his best where he dominates the field totally.
But it's still possible that he improves on his current level and becomes a contender. Nadal has surprised me before, and I hope he surprises me again.

Shall we not jump into any conclusion yet? Rafa may again surprise many here.

It Must Be Love wrote:

TRuffin wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:Nadal is physically absolutely fine, there's no evidence of any injury issues. He just hasn't got his game back to the right level (yet?).

You are the one who has been using the term"permanent decline" in regard to Rafa.  Even last year.  Do you think that's the case still, or is he going to make it back?

I'm certain he's not going to come back to his best where he dominates the field totally.
But it's still possible that he improves on his current level and becomes a contender. Nadal has surprised me before, and I hope he surprises me again.

I would agree with this. I could see top 5 with strong contention at the French.

I understand about the back treatment truffin. The stem cell treatment in itself isnt that taxing an operation at all.
The worry though is that if he needs that treatment, thats not a good sign in general. I think that needs a year to see if it worked properly.
The appendicitis shoudnt be a problem now for sure.

temporary21 wrote:I understand about the back treatment truffin. The stem cell treatment in itself isnt that taxing an operation at all.
The worry though is that if he needs that treatment, thats not a good sign in general. I think that needs a year to see if it worked properly.
The appendicitis shoudnt be a problem now for sure.

Not really a bad sign Temp other than shows he's dealing with prob the same chronic back pain millions deal with and most athletes are able to successfully cope with. The Stem Cell treatment is simply a higher tech and rich mans version of the epidural steroid shots that I and millions of lower back pain sufferers get done on a yearly basis. I get them up to 3 times a year and if I had the money and clout would switch over to the stem cells too. ITs not an operation at all as I've seen you and Nadal fans constantly call it. Its a needle in the back to harvest the cells and a needle in the back to reinject. They flood the inflammation and it should work immediately and constantly for months or hopefully forever. I would be shocked if Federer hasn't had it done as well since it's clear he has sciatica. Prob any tennis pro with back pain is getting them. Its just such a minor thing that most would never announce it as it's prob one of multiple procedures they all get done during off times. Its odd Nadals team even announced, but prob is a smart move as it's clear his fans run with those announcements and build it up far more than it is.

Nadal was suffering with back issues and had some treatment for it. Why shouldn't he let people know ? We all know about Federer's back problems especially in 2013 because we were told about them. So why is it different if Nadal's team announce these things.

Berankis takes the 3rd set vs Goffin, 2-1 up.
David is 2/19 on bp's......

Exactly Calder, why can't Nadal and his team let people know of his back issue and treatment, when Fed is/was mentioning his back issue year in year out?

Nadal's back issue is something new, happened only last year so why can't he let his fans know of its conditions and what he's going to do to treat his back?

It's not that Rafa is saying he's feeling his back issue again; he mentioned that he has no physical issue now. It's just that he's learning to trust his back and careful not to reinjure it again and so it takes time for him to be sure that it'll be fine when he's playing throughout a full season. He's doing better here at the USO when he's hitting with more power and depth, probably using more of his core to generate power. It's unlike during the earlier part of the season when he's not hitting with power and depth.

Calder106 wrote:Nadal was suffering with back issues and had some treatment for it. Why shouldn't he let people know ? We all know about Federer's back problems especially in 2013 because we were told about them. So why is it different if Nadal's team announce these things.

My point being the stem cell treatment is literly so minor that it's not worth mentioning.  No problem him announcing the back issue as Federer and others did, but you didn't hear them telling the world about every little treatment they received.   It's like every athlete telling the world every time they take an ibuprofen or get a massage.  A massage takes longer and about as complicated as a stem cell injection.  What it created is a bunch of fans, who don't know anything about what that treatment actually is nor take the time to even do five minutes of research, calling it an "operation" "major procedure" "operation so he couldn't train normally"  etc which are the terms I have seen some on here use. I've seen people on here talk about how it will take him a year to get back because he's recovering from back surgery like Murray was.. That's pure nonsense.   It's nothing of the sort.  He would have been able to train next day or the following if he felt like it.


Belovedboy seems to magically know that it's the back that continues to ail him or him constantly thinking about it, even though he shows no signs of either. Beloved talks about him learning to trust the back again yet knows nothing about what was actually wrong with the back.  He could have had minor sciatica for all we know which the treatment would help.   Or maybe Beloved is right and it was a bigger problem but that's all guessing. We have no idea what's in his head or what his lack of confidence is from.  All we know is he and his team that have proven like above that they are willing to announce every little ailment or procedure have declared him completely healthy and feeling better than he has in years which is what Nadal said a few months ago.   Beloved spent months telling us that his problems all came from missing a training block at the end of his year and as soon as he got his fitness back and trained after the AO- around the start of clay season, he would be back to normal... Then after Nadal continued to play badly, it was that he needed more training and more fitness.  Then when clay wasn't a big success suddenly it's the back that's on his mind.   It's just fanbased deflection- which I admit we all will do for our favorite player.

Truffin, so what do you think? Why the sudden lack of confidence by Nadal? Also, I followed his news closely and he mentioned that if the stem cell treatment didn't work he won't know what else he could do for his back; that to me sounded like a worry to him.

Truffin, Im not in Rafa's team so of course I won't know first hand what happens in his camp but as things unfold, I can see it's not just stamina and fitness issue but more than that.

I can see he's not hitting with power but now he's getting better. Why do you think it's so?

Then again you have no idea about how Nadal currently feels physically and mentally. After Wimbledon 2014 he was off the court with a wrist injury for nearly 3 months (is that totally cleared up ?), then he had the appendix problem which was at first treated by antibiotics and then the operation, after that he had the stem cell treatment. At that time he was due to start training again in early December. I don't know if he did. All in all though it doesn't seem like a full pre-season training stint would have been possible.

I remember Murray saying at times last year that he felt healthy and was glad that the back problem was not causing pain and at other times saying he still felt restricted on certain shots and that the lack of a proper training block in the off season had left him not as fit as he would like. So feeling healthy may be different from actually being ready to compete at near top level.

That's why I like others say lets see what happens in 2016. Don't think many expect him to get back to his best but I could see him being top again. Not a certainty though. He would need to show more than he currently is.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Truffin, so what do you think? Why the sudden lack of confidence by Nadal?  Also, I followed his news closely and he mentioned that if the stem cell treatment didn't work he won't know what else he could do for his back; that to me sounded like a worry to him.

I don't know the answer Beloved, but your reasons are pure speculation based on no facts.  that's why I question it.  Lets face it, and I know you are a loyal and excellent fan of his, but looking through your posts this year- after nearly every loss you immediately rant about how you hate this style of play from Nadal, you are so disappointed,etc... then you follow up a while later after calming down with excuses about why he is playing that way.  From the start of the year to now, you have changed your reasoning as to why he is struggling constantly after he failed to improve like you thought.  Lately it's been he's worried about the back which you have no way of knowing is affecting him.   You say above he mentioned if the stems didn't work he didnt' know the solution so you surmise he is worried----   Yet you have no idea the procedure didn't work so why do you jump to the conclusion it's the back? For all we or you know, the stems completely helped the back.    The only FACT we know if Toni and Rafa have both said he feels physically better than he has in a long time so that indicates it was a success.

Lets also face this fact-  before the back, wrist, appendix-   Nadal was starting to show poor results everywhere, even clay.  He pulled out the French Open win which was fantastic, but was spotty everywhere else- even while healthy.     Based on that and what I see now--   if I was to speculate like you do.......    I would say that Nadal is feeling his age and has noticed a slight slowing down..  Much like Federer did and really any athlete at that age.   For Rafa, it's more of an issue because his success is built on his defensive speed, his physicality.    Wouldn't you agree that if Nadal is feeling his movement is lessoning, that in itself, might cause him to lose confidence in his ability to be his best?

I think natural aging and all the tread on his tires is more of a realistic answer than what you have come up with because we all know that aging and slowing down affects all athletes and spares no one. that's a fact vs. pure fan speculation about his back which we have no signs of.

In terms of his power and it getting better. No offense but I personally believe he's had matches all year where he has shown flashes of his normal power, but as he progressed in the tournament, a better player would take him out. I can see from your past posts when I run down them, several times you have said "he's back!" months ago even, then he disappoints you and you rant about what a disaster he is. Its too soon to tell he is better or if it's just a better day.. Just like Federer can look fantastic at times and the next day his age shows.

Theres a little double standard here. 3 month wrist injury, a back injury that needed very odd treatment, a shoulder difficulty, and people feel were jumping to conclusions too much?

Murrays, Federers backs and many other physical things are very often cited as reasons for loss of form, noone really knows if thats a problem either, but theres not this same exasperation.

Seems pretty fair to cite physical reasons as part of this slump, and seems pretty fair to expect a bit longer to see if he can overcome it, Especially when the more time was given to his contemporaries

Calder106 wrote:Then again you have no idea about how Nadal currently feels physically and mentally. After Wimbledon 2014 he was off the court with a wrist injury for nearly 3 months (is that totally cleared up ?), then he had the appendix problem which was at first treated by antibiotics and then the operation, after that he had the stem cell treatment. At that time he was due to start training again in early December. I don't know if he did. All in all though it doesn't seem like a full pre-season training stint would have been possible.

I remember Murray saying at times last year that he felt healthy and was glad that the back problem was not causing pain and at other times saying he still felt restricted on certain shots and that the lack of a proper training block in the off season had left him not as fit as he would like. So feeling healthy may be different from actually being ready to compete at near top level.

That's why I like others say lets see what happens in 2016. Don't think many expect him to get back to his best but I could see him being top again. Not a certainty though. He would need to show more than he currently is.

100% agree. We are just having a discussion.

Truffin, I believe I did mention in some of my earlier posts too that age is also catching up with Rafa. He's human so he can't escape that!

However, I do believe his relatively poor results last year was also caused by his back issue. He was plagued with his back issue the whole year, hence his decision to do the stem cell treatment. Do note that he was still moving very quickly on clay at the FO last year, and he won't suddenly slow down so much so soon within just a few months.

Of course I'm just speculating about his worries (his back) and so I mentioned he 'may' or 'might' be worried.....aren't you also speculating that his loss of speed and power is due more to his aging than anything else?

As for his hitting with power, we shall see how he proceed from here and see whether he can keep that up. He's improving through the season but of course it's unrealistic to expect him to dominate again even on clay, but certainly he could do better than what he did this year on clay, going forward.

U

temporary21 wrote:Theres a little double standard here.  3 month wrist injury, a back injury that needed very odd treatment, a shoulder difficulty, and people feel were jumping to conclusions too much?

Murrays, Federers backs and many other physical things are very often cited as reasons for loss of form, noone really knows if thats a problem either, but theres not this same exasperation.

Seems pretty fair to cite physical reasons as part of this slump, and seems pretty fair to expect a bit longer to see if he can overcome it, Especially when the more time was given to his contemporaries

But you are talking about a guy who missed 7 months with a knee injury and came back and swept up all before him. I need a bit more convincing that these physical problems are much more debitating than the knee one he suffered. 

Leads me to believe something in the psyche is missing.

legendkillarV2 wrote:U

temporary21 wrote:Theres a little double standard here.  3 month wrist injury, a back injury that needed very odd treatment, a shoulder difficulty, and people feel were jumping to conclusions too much?

Murrays, Federers backs and many other physical things are very often cited as reasons for loss of form, noone really knows if thats a problem either, but theres not this same exasperation.

Seems pretty fair to cite physical reasons as part of this slump, and seems pretty fair to expect a bit longer to see if he can overcome it, Especially when the more time was given to his contemporaries

But you are talking about a guy who missed 7 months with a knee injury and came back and swept up all before him. I need a bit more convincing that these physical problems are much more debitating than the knee one he suffered. 

Leads me to believe something in the psyche is missing.

Well tht was 2013, which was before the Aus 2014 final, and more than anything was 2 years ago. Hes 30 now, he might need a bit longer

temporary21 wrote:Theres a little double standard here.  3 month wrist injury, a back injury that needed very odd treatment, a shoulder difficulty, and people feel were jumping to conclusions too much?

Murrays, Federers backs and many other physical things are very often cited as reasons for loss of form, noone really knows if thats a problem either, but theres not this same exasperation.

Seems pretty fair to cite physical reasons as part of this slump, and seems pretty fair to expect a bit longer to see if he can overcome it, Especially when the more time was given to his contemporaries

There you go again Temp....... "very odd treatment?" You have called the stem cell shots an "operation", "a major operation on his back", "a major procedure" which is completely wrong. It's just the newest and more costly version of the epidural shots that millions of back pain sufferers get every year. In the USA alone, MILLIONS of people get the epidural shots up to 3 times a year. What multi multi millionaire wouldn't get the more costly and advanced version (stem cells) that us pions don't have access too. That's hardly an odd treatment at all. It's just a better more expensive version of an extremenly common procedure. When you use these completely false descriptions of something that would take 5 minutes for you to look up, it lessons the credibility of your argument. IMO.. and you constantly do it.

Federer's back was an obvious problem that anyone could see. There were times he could barely move on court and was arming serves throughout the year. Murray had a true back operation. Those are different things than Nadal announcing a procedure done for back pain.


What I find funny and you seem to harp on is things like "theres not this same exasperation", "more time was given to his contemporaries" Are you kidding?!! Federer was asked at every turn in 2013 whether he should retire because he was done... threads after threads on forums declaring he should hang it up. Big fans on here even saying he was destroying his legacy, painful to watch,etc. Murray received the same exact treatment last year. Get off the high horse, Nadal is getting the same treatment they all got. People speculating and questioning all aspects of it.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Truffin, I believe I did mention in some of my earlier posts too that age is also catching up with Rafa. He's human so he can't escape that!

However, I do believe his relatively poor results last year was also caused by his back issue.  He was plagued with his back issue the whole year, hence his decision to do the stem cell treatment.  Do note that he was still moving very quickly on clay at the FO last year, and he won't suddenly slow down so much so soon within just a few months.

Of course I'm just speculating about his worries (his back) and so I mentioned he 'may' or 'might' be worried.....aren't you also speculating that his loss of speed and power is due more to his aging than anything else?

As for his hitting with power, we shall see how he proceed from here and see whether he can keep that up.  He's improving through the season but of course it's unrealistic to expect him to dominate again even on clay, but certainly he could do better than what he did this year on clay, going forward.

Fair enough.. we shall see :-)

Thats exactly what I mean Truff... just cool it. Wait until next year to see if his physical problems go away.
What happened on other forums we dont care about, all 3 of the guys in question got at least a year from the majority of good posters, I dont see why Nadal suddenly isnt allowed the same thing.

Stem cell treatment isnt often used in the UK unless its something quite serious from what I experienced, and the attcks on Roger you describe I dont remember at all on this forum from the majority.

Its not a game of get backsies, I dont think Rafas fully recovered yet, thats all there is ok

temporary21 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:U

temporary21 wrote:Theres a little double standard here.  3 month wrist injury, a back injury that needed very odd treatment, a shoulder difficulty, and people feel were jumping to conclusions too much?

Murrays, Federers backs and many other physical things are very often cited as reasons for loss of form, noone really knows if thats a problem either, but theres not this same exasperation.

Seems pretty fair to cite physical reasons as part of this slump, and seems pretty fair to expect a bit longer to see if he can overcome it, Especially when the more time was given to his contemporaries

But you are talking about a guy who missed 7 months with a knee injury and came back and swept up all before him. I need a bit more convincing that these physical problems are much more debitating than the knee one he suffered. 

Leads me to believe something in the psyche is missing.

Well tht was 2013, which was before the Aus 2014 final, and more than anything was 2 years ago. Hes 30 now, he might need a bit longer

At 26/7 to comeback after 7 months and win so convincingly? And he has missed half that time through injury which isn't to be thought as any worse than the knee one? I know 2 years is a long time in sport, but I think we are clutching straws. 

To me I don't see it as being purely physical. I can't say I have seen a match in 2015 that he is showing signs of pain or discomfort. I think it's upstairs.

Its probably both lk.
Confidence comes and goes, but the shoulder trouble he had last month and the drop in power are perfectly understandable and will need serious managing, I dont personally buy hes in perfect physical shape for a moment
Remember hes not ACTUALLY superman