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Congrats Super!

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:So you are an artisan super?

In the R&A "inclusive and equality" vernacular Mac.

When you get a Links Ticket, to play competitions you need to be a member of a local club. That can be R&A (if you're invited to join), St Andrews Club, Thistle Club, St Regulus, University Club or New Club.
If you don't join one of these clubs, your links ticket costs more and you can't play comps.

The Links Trust really needs to modernise. They need to strip the R&A of its preferential tee times on the New, they also need to give all clubs equal tee times on Old, currently R&A enjoys about 3x as many as the rest AND get exclusive use of the course for two weeks in September which even if a tee time is free, you can't have.  So much for the equality they pretend to have.

They also need to start opening TOC on a Sunday. They are swimming in money and staff, it could EASILY be opened on a Sunday, even if it was for locals to begin with. There is literally no argument for keeping it shut. It's not in any better condition than any other course on the Open rota which is open 7 days a week, and has considerably more resources so the argument it "gets a rest" is nonsense.

It could also do with updating the booking process. Currently you phone up a day before at 7am at which point you are placed in a queue and end up with around number 25 on the list.

Dunno why but I had it in my head that all the clubs are pretty much competition focussed except for the R&A who think they own the place and just rock up to hobnob with their “mates” and take others tee times when they feel like it. I assumed the other clubs shared the courses on a kind of rotational basis.
What’s the feeling on the ground about the Eden Trophy Super? I’ve been thinking of taking a break from the Tassie one year and doing the Eden instead.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the Eden Trophy JAS, if I were you I'd consider the Montrose Golf Week (if it's not already passed). It's similar in format to the Tassie (36 hole strokeplay followed by matchplay) and is a much better course than the Eden. In fact I'd put Montrose up there as one of my top 5 links courses I've played.

Where does TOC come in your top five?

TOC isn't in my top 10 links courses Mac.

I really enjoy playing TOC, not because it's a fantastic course or a great design as it certainly isn't, we've discussed how many drab holes are on it before and how there are far too many drives followed by a flick of a wedge which don't challenge the game or encourage much skill, but because it offers the chance to shoot a ridiculously low score.

I'm hoping that after 2021 that the R&A miss it out on the rota in 2025 and take it back somewhere like Troon, Turnberry, Portrush or find another links course to broaden the rota a bit with the hope of injecting a bit of drama into a tired tournament.

Super 

There is no way I am rehashing TOC debate but I will just say I obviously disagree strongly with you on it.

But I am intrigued what your top 10 links would be, and lets limit it to Scotland?

I'll play, I'll caveat it with those I haven't played (Royal Troon, Western Gailes, Irvine Bogside, West Kilbride, Southerness, anything north of Royal Montrose,) and also that Dundonald, neither Archerfield course, or the Renaissance is a links course.  I've never played Kingsbarns either although debatable whether that's a links course.  From those I've played:

1.  Carnoustie
2.  Turnberry (pre re-do, haven't played it since but heard it's better now)
3.  Muirfield
4.  Prestwick Old
5.  Gullane 1
6.  Kilmarnock (Barassie)
7.  Panmure
8.  Monifieth
9.  Royal Montrose
10. Glasgow Gailes

Not included but good: St Andrews New, Luffness New, Dunbar, Crail Balcomie (haven't played Craighead), Scotscraig, Leven (haven't played Lundin), Prestwick St Nicholas, Kilspindie, Gullane 3 (Kilspindie & Gullane 3 are short but good fun).

Overrated: St Andrews Old (good to play for the history, etc. but as a golf course bang average at best), North Berwick west (first 12 holes are alright, last 6 holes are dreadful), Gullane 2 (most boring golf course on earth).

Christ, that's a good bit of thread without any (OK, much) childish point scoring (thus far).

Thanks!

McLaren wrote:Super 

There is no way I am rehashing TOC debate but I will just say I obviously disagree strongly with you on it.

But I am intrigued what your top 10 links would be, and lets limit it to Scotland?

Mac, 1,2,3,6,7,9,10,12,16,18 are all either a 3W and a flick or a driver and a flick. 8 and 11 are not hard par 3's. 4, 13 and 15 are no more than a drive and 8 iron.

The greens are so big that you hit at least 16 GIR per round so your short game is almost never tested.

8 is an atrocious par 3 and 5 and 14 are easy par 5's. St Andrews in general has very poor par 3's.

I played last weekend and the longest iron I had into any green was 6 on the 17th. That's not a good course if the majority of your golf bag simply isn't required.

Top 10 links in Scotland in no particular order (limited to what I've played)

1. Dornoch
2. Carnoustie
3. Kingsbarns
4. Muirfield
5. Royal Aberdeen
6. Castle
7. Panmure
8. Elie
9. Archerfield Fidra
10. Montrose

TOC, along with New, Jubilee, Crail, Lundin and Leven might make up the top 15/16.

Probably deserves its own thread this one but I’ll throw in my own top 10 of the Scottish links I’ve played
Royal Dornoch
Carnoustie
Trumps Aberdeen
Royal Aberdeen
North Berwick
Muirfield
Turnberry Ailsa (not the newest version though)
Western Gailes
Prestwick
Nairn
The order varies whether it’s based on difficulty/challenge, pleasure to play/scenery or general ambience.

With regard to the Eden Super the 36 hole medal rounds are 18 on the Eden and 18 on the New. The main difference from the Tassie is that there are 240 blokes & 240 Wimmin (not sure what different courses the lady qualifying is on). I’m told it’s a real good atmosphere in the town during Eden week (starts this coming Monday btw).
Thanks for the heads up on Montrose, i’ll have a look. I was told one year at the Tassie that Cruden Bay did one as well and obviously Dornoch do the Carnegie shield which I’d love a go at too at some point

Mine would be ;

TOC
The New
Jubilee
Eden
Balcomie

The magic of St Andrews means even great courses in other towns can't compete with any of the St Andrews courses.

47 points has won last two weeks Stableford around my place. Cannot complete with that and h/c secretary is scratching his head... 20 handicappers...

Be_the_ball wrote:47 points has won last two weeks Stableford around my place. Cannot complete with that and h/c secretary is scratching his head... 20 handicappers...

Aye don’t know how widespread this is but I’d estimate that about 60-70% of our medals in June/July had a CSS of 1 under SSS. Really Low number reqd for a win (typically 61/62). Indeed our former sec (plays every week so not a bandit) had an astonishing 50 points in a midweek Senior Stableford, bonkers scoring!!

Jas/be the ball

What are the details of the 47 and 50 point rounds?

McLaren wrote:Mine would be ;

TOC
The New
Jubilee
Eden
Balcomie

The magic of St Andrews means even great courses in other towns can't compete with any of the St Andrews courses.

What is it you think is so "magic" about it Mac?
There really is nothing special about the town or its most famous course.

McLaren wrote:Jas/be the ball

What are the details of the 47 and 50 point rounds?

Just had a quick check, it was actually 51 points Mac, the guy was off 20(19.9). 29 point front 9 including 3 gross birdies. “Bottled it” back 9 with a mere 22 points :-p. The cut took him to 15.4

First outing for my new wedges last night in our regular little 13 hole Tuesday night series. First use in earnest of the new 50deg gap wedge was a shank on the 4th :-/ Wtf!! On the 5th I was against exactly the same distance 114, this time nice and true and secured NTP in 2 which we always have on the 5th. Was also in line for NTP on the par 3 11th until one of my playing partners only went and holed his tee shot. Anyways, 4 gross birdies and 31 points through 13 was enough to secure the win and close the gap on the series leader (we play 20 Tues nights over the season and it’s best 10 scores to count).

I'm probably due a couple of new wedges JAS, mine are two years old now and because I miss so many greens they get a lot of use.

What did you get? I've got my eye on the Ping Glide Forged.

I got the Callaway Mack Daddy4s in Matt black. Had the Mack daddy 2s previously and loved them but they were 3 years old (way too old for wedges given my frequency of play) Upped my gap wedge from 52 to 50 deg, kept the others the same I.e. a 56 deg and a 60 in the PM grind

So 51 points is about 15 shots better than handicap? It seems pretty remarkable that a 20 handicapper could shoot roughly +5, some might say suspicious. I know some no point holes were probably evened out by nett eagles but that can't have happened often.

Super

The history, the setting, the people, the vibe in the town, quality and quantity of courses, and no doubt many more intangibles.

When in St Andrews I stride around with the jaunty walk of paddy Harrington and the smile of Kuch.

McLaren wrote:Super

The history, the setting, the people, the vibe in the town, quality and quantity of courses, and no doubt many more intangibles.

When in St Andrews I stride around with the jaunty walk of paddy Harrington and the smile of Kuch.

Like a Japanese or American tourist, and frankly why the hell not.

Bloody yellow warning for thunderstorms on Saturday in Ayrshire! Sunday looking ok though..

McLaren wrote:So 51 points is about 15 shots better than handicap? It seems pretty remarkable that a 20 handicapper could shoot roughly +5, some might say suspicious. I know some no point holes were probably evened out by nett eagles but that can't have happened often.

There were no blobs, if I’m reading master scoreboard correctly his worst score on a hole was 2 points. Remarkable yes, suspicious no, looking at his record he plays about 50 qualifiers a year, had drifted up from 16 over about a year and a half including an upward adjustment. Mostly 0.1s with the odd buffer then in June there were 3 buffers followed by the big cut in July. He’s had a couple of 0.1s since and another small cut.
He’s the former Secretary, I know him fairly well, he was always around 14-18 hcp. Not the most studious of concentrators it has to be said, relaxed & laid back doesn’t really care about handicap, just enjoys being out there. Pretty much the kind of character that could go and shoot a remarkable number out of the blue.

Jas

Even off 15 a +5 round is incredible.

Even with a good "character" how the hell does someone of that skill level shoot such a low score? Not sure I have ever heard of 51 points outside junior golf.

McLaren wrote:Super

The history, the setting, the people, the vibe in the town, quality and quantity of courses, and no doubt many more intangibles.

When in St Andrews I stride around with the jaunty walk of paddy Harrington and the smile of Kuch.

Good that you admit by default that the lack of quality of the
courses are supplemented by how the town makes you feel.

Personally as someone born in the the town, the "vibe" means nothing to me at all, but then I'm not the sentimental type and don't get dewey eyed about history as that does not make something good.
As for the people, it's one of the most pretentious and annoying places you could ever visit, from the snobby students to the stuck up locals who treat TOC and their golf games like they're on tour you could scarcely find a more revolting place full of the type of middle class, right winged, sexist golfer that you claim to hate so much.

Around midsummer I got stuck behind some hackers from 13 in and it looked like we weren't getting in before dark. We took to playing the course in reverse going from the 7th tee to 5th green, fifth tee to 4th green etc all the way back to 1. The course is superior that way round.

McLaren wrote:
When in St Andrews I stride around with the jaunty walk of paddy Harrington, just after having escaped his inbred village and the prospect of an arranged marriage to his cousin - and the smile of Kuch, just after having paid off his local caddie and gotten away with 51 points and a favorable ruling in the local comp.

Fixed it for you mac.

Inbread
You even managed a Mac style spelling error

Social realism for you...

McLaren wrote:Jas

Even off 15 a +5 round is incredible.

Even with a good "character" how the hell does someone of that skill level shoot such a low score? Not sure I have ever heard of 51 points outside junior golf.

No it's not incredible. It's unusual as JAS said, but far from incredible. Sometimes these things happen particularly to higher handicap players.

I once played just a roll up game (not a qualifier) and everything clicked. I think I scored 49 points off around 23 handicap - so I played to a 10 handicap. Nothing suspicious about it, just everything went right and I think I had a chip-in and some decent putts. I also played pretty much every qualifier that was available to me so nothing like protecting handicaps or anything like that.

A scratch player could never hope to play a -13 round, but a 23 handicapper is quite capable of shooting 13 under handicap once in 7-8 years. I don't see why you are so incredulous

Mac, whilst it seems unlikely that a chopper off 15 can score 51 points perhaps you haven't taken potential circumstances into consideration.

Nine times out of ten I would suspect that the guy was an out and out cheat, however should the weather be favourable, should the course be relatively free of risk and should the player be playing with someone who is giving them course management advice to mitigate their terrible decision making then I think whilst unlikely, 51 points is attainable. More importantly, surely you know hackers who can actually hit the ball, but simply stink from 150 yards in. Once in a blue moon you'd expect them to play very well.

The important thing to remember is that everyone has the potential to be a far  better golfer than they are, but usually bad decisions and a lack of practice hold them back from getting there. This guy could well have opened his eyes to showing himself that he can be a lot better than his current laughable handicap.

I've always thought that high handicappers could gain at least six shots instantly by taking the advice of someone with better course management than them. I have shot 7 under my handicap on a couple of occasions and missed a few putts to make each round a potential -10. It doesn't make me off +6, but it does prove to me that I have the skills to be a lot better than my current 1 handicap, working out how I can get there  is something I have to figure out.


Personally, I have no interest in anyone's net score. Why do you?

If I played my eclectic round (best score that I have ever recorded on each hole) I would end up with 64 points. ( I expect others could do the same) Never going to happen. But as others have said, I could improve.

Why is anyone doubting the story, told by someone who knows the guy and was involved in the competition when he shot 51pts. It happened, well done to him, he will never do it again though!

Why couldn't he do it again? That's the whole point of my last post. He has shown he is capable.

super_realist wrote:Why couldn't he do it again? That's the whole point of my last post. He has shown he is capable.

Because he'd be playing off 5 shots lower! Sure he could still shoot 46 points but it's unlikely - the point is it's a (hopefully) once in a lifetime round

I'd forgotten that hackers get cut 0.3 per stroke they beat their handicap by.

Ben

I am not doubting jas and believe him that the guy handed in a score for 51 points. I am just astonished by 51 points, as I said this is a score that I have never seen before. This is more about acknowledging the rarity of this event.

We are talking rarer than a hole in one, this guy has shot a nett score that only a handful people will ever have shot.

It just seems like others on here are not as blown away by a 20 handicapper shooting +5 as I am.

My best is 9 better than handicap (-2 off 7 at the time) with 2 three putts to finish. In a medal, but that would only have been 45 (47 if I didn't choke!).

I know a 19 (may have been 18) handicapper who shot 50 points (probably about 5 years ago if not 6/7).

Got a cut to 13/14 and never played to it, crept back up and is currently back at 18/19 after a few buffers/minor cuts when he was up at 17 ish.

So, it is very rare, but can happen - the guy I know can reach everything in regulation, can chip and can putt. He just usually doesn't!

Well played. Now try and repeat!!!

My best, was not long back 44 points off 20. I had a quad bogey and 3 doubles. Shot 83 on par 70. If things go well for a 20hc you can make a lot of points!

Im an average hc player, 18' I think most around the 18/20 level, have some sort of golfing ability and can play well. My case is playing irregular and no practice. So it rarely clicks all together. I would guess its similar for others.

Golf snobbery is alive and well, just because someone is a 20hc, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to play well.

Not meant to be golf snobbery on my part Ben . It was the fact that two stableford comps in a row had 47 point winners, a couple of 45's and a 44 behind that. My point is I cannot compete with that, it is unusual for my place, "normally" winners would be between 40 - 44 points depending on weather. The best I've done this year is 38 points off 14, and nowhere near the prizes. Did get to the semi's in the winter league though
The low handicappers are complaining in my place, they want different prizes for diff categories.

I'm surprised low handicappers care. I don't know a single low handicapper who cares the slightest bit about prizes in handicap comps.
I wouldn't expect a high handicapper to care about scratch comps so not sure why a low handicap golfer cares
about winning a handicap comp.

It's their ego, super. I know low/mid handicappers who think they're Tiger Woods. Therefore they instinctively think they should win these sorts of comps.

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