If Heyneke Meyer was smart.

First topic message reminder :

We all know the squad Heyneke Meyer has selected for the world cup, we are all aware of the risks he is taking with the inclusion of Fourie du Preez, Jean de Villiers, Morne Steyn, JP Pietersen, Willem Alberts and Victor Matfield.


These players have all been to world cups, have experience and are seen by Meyer as his bankers for this world cup.

The biggest problem the boks had in the past twelve months was the inconsistency in selections and combinations. It has disrupted the Springboks and the results have been dire.

What Meyer needs to do is manage his "bankers" or senior players and use them sparingly only when necessary, and use the younger, fitter and more exciting players as his starting team.

There are a few reasons why I suggest that, firstly they need consistency in selection, they need to build cohesion and understanding, and they need game time together.

You can only build trust amongst a group of players if they have gone through the mill enough times, and South Africa has 4 matches in the pool stage, four matches where they need to improve cohesion, synergy and understanding, only hen can they play themselves into form.

My starting 15 will be

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Bismarck du Plesis
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Lood de Jager
6. Frans Louw
7. Schalk Burger
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. RUan Pienaar
10. Handre Pollard
11. Bryan Habana
12. Damien de ALlende
13. Jesse Kriel
14. WIllie le Roux
15. Patrick LAmbie

bench.

Trevor Nyakane
Schak Brits
Frans Malherbe
Pieter Steph du Toit
Willem Alberts/VIctor
Fourie du Preez
Jean de Villiers
JP Pietersen

The older players need protection, and they should only be used if necessary, and only in the last quarter to close out the match, otherwise give the staring 15 as much game time as possible.

The front row picks itself, it has proven once again that when they are in the mood to play rugby, they are still our best front row combination.

Lood de Jager and Eben Etzebeth are both hardworking monsters in defence and love carrying the ball up.

Burger may not have his physicality of 4 years ago, but he is the perfect link man for South Africa, Vermeulen needs no introduction and Louw has shown he knows how to play English conditions.

Pienaar is not my favourite, but he has proven to be reliable, if somewhat slow and deliberate.

Pollard needs game time in Europe, we can criticise all we want about him not being used to conditions in Europe, so then give him full control. That is the only way he is going to learn.

De Allende and Kriel need game time to work on their defensive organisation and communication, two test isn't going to cut it come the knock out rounds. AS for their attack, just ask Conrad Smith and Ma'a Nonu.

Willie le Roux is a must as he brings the spark and being outside Jesse Kriel will provide plenty of game play between them, Lambie is solid and back up for Pollard, and Habana will hopefully show some hunger

This article from Biltong is now very much an "I told you so" piece of advice for Meyer!

Yep, an "I told you so" that doesn't provide any satisfaction.

But be that as it may, there was a fist fight in the Bok camp, but our source has pulled Laager, he won't talk to us any more, just says he is dealing with a lot of Poopie.

We were told two weeks ago that there is a split in the Bok camp, the players are not happy.

I suspect Victor Matfield is the problem. He is up Meyer's arse and everyone has to tiptoe around avic, because you are not allowed to say anything negative about him.

Wow bad times for the boks Biltong - do you think they can turn it around?

no mate, I don't.

Meyer has dug a hole with focusing on experienced players in 2012. He decided then that Victor, Fourie, JEan, Schalk, JP etc would make up his dream world cup squad.

He disregarded potential loss of form and ageing.

Now he sits with youngsters wanting to play rugby, and ageing players broken down and him not wanting to admit they aren't good enough.

I think they will top the group, if they win their next few games they will.

If they face AUS in the QF they will lose, if they face England, I think they'll still win.
The problem is though how do you solve this team thereafter without disrupting the balance.

Certain players have to go. This is what happens when you only bring 3 centres. Kriel is defensively weak (shown up again), De Villiers is toothless so De Allende is on his own. I'd probably go with De Villiers over Kriel.

Its not about a firesale but doing whats best with what you've now got.

Mtawarira and Jannie have been too complacent for too long. They do little around the field... when was the last time you saw Mtawarira have a good game? Jannie is known more for screwing up than playing well.

Then their is a question of throwing on too much youth.

Coenie, Bissie, Frans, Eben, De Jager, Alberts, Burger, Vermeulen, Pienaar, Lambie, Habana, De Allende, De Villiers, Pietersen, Le Roux.

That would be my side but not the one I think will be Meyer's QF choice. I'd rather it wasn't but you can only chose with what you have.

10 guys over 30, 920kgs when everyone else is 890kgs... someone like England with youth and fitness on their side could admittedly get one over on SA.

Coenie is useless. The English will own him. WP Nel will own him.

Burger is at best a sub these days.

I thought Burger was good. Louw for me isn't back to his best. I want to see Alberts fitness, see what his form is lick.

Coenie is useless at 3. I agree. At 1 he's a different beast IMO.

Losing Vermeulen and Alberts was a bitter blow. Those two carrying the ball could have made a difference.

As discussed several times on here, Matfield just doesn't do enough outside of the lineout to justify his place in the squad. He retired at the right time and should not have returned.

eirebilly wrote:I actually feel that SA have a good balance in their squad myself. I guess i dont watch them as much as i should but i can see them being a real force in this RWC.

Really? They just lost to Japan and they have a dire win loss record over the last 18 months. I can see them losing to Scotland and getting dumped out of the WC.

I dont see why anyone would fear SA right now. They have their worst coach in years and the players they have picked are mostly past it.

They were 2nd in the world at Christmas and comfortably so. They lost to AUS in AUS in the 79th min final play and led the ABs until the 65th min. They're not a bad side.
However, there is a way to play them. Run them hard, make them chase the game... the boks have suffered that for years, AUS had their number playing that way even when they were no.1 and world champs.

Heavy and old is not a good combination mind.

Scotland's pack could take them on. Nel could do a number on them... however do they have the belief to back it up? I'm not so sure.
Japan were always behind, that helps. But to lead and win is another thing and I'm not sure Scotland can do it. Lets see how they go about Japan first (which I can't see them losing. Scotland should win and win well IMO).

fa0019 wrote:They were 2nd in the world at Christmas and comfortably so. They lost to AUS in AUS in the 79th min final play and led the ABs until the 65th min. They're not a bad side.
However, there is a way to play them. Run them hard, make them chase the game... the boks have suffered that for years, AUS had their number playing that way even when they were no.1 and world champs.

Heavy and old is not a good combination mind.

Scotland's pack could take them on. Nel could do a number on them... however do they have the belief to back it up? I'm not so sure.
Japan were always behind, that helps. But to lead and win is another thing and I'm not sure Scotland can do it. Lets see how they go about Japan first (which I can't see them losing. Scotland should win and win well IMO).

I wouldnt say it was comfortable at all. They had just lost to Ireland and Wales.

fa0019 wrote:They were 2nd in the world at Christmas and comfortably so. They lost to AUS in AUS in the 79th min final play and led the ABs until the 65th min. They're not a bad side.

Yup, its been an amazing nose dive in form - they looked like they might usurp the abs a year ago.

Things seem to have fallen apart after or before the AIs last year.

Everyone in Ireland expected to lose that game ...complete turn around since then losing to Wales, Argentina, Japan etc...

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:They were 2nd in the world at Christmas and comfortably so. They lost to AUS in AUS in the 79th min final play and led the ABs until the 65th min. They're not a bad side.
However, there is a way to play them. Run them hard, make them chase the game... the boks have suffered that for years, AUS had their number playing that way even when they were no.1 and world champs.

Heavy and old is not a good combination mind.

Scotland's pack could take them on. Nel could do a number on them... however do they have the belief to back it up? I'm not so sure.
Japan were always behind, that helps. But to lead and win is another thing and I'm not sure Scotland can do it. Lets see how they go about Japan first (which I can't see them losing. Scotland should win and win well IMO).

I wouldnt say it was comfortable at all. They had just lost to Ireland and Wales.

The loss to Ireland was due to Ireland being a good side, at home with tricky conditions. It wasn't SA being bad. Wales was a dire match. The last game of the season, no chances, no tries, injuries galore.
The writing was indeed on the wall as you would expect a good side to pull through but they simply didn't.

However 1 month before they beat the ABs.

I do think SA were bad v Ireland and I also think they underestimated both Ireland and Wales. I think DeVilliers said as much in his post match interview. If you review SAs decision making v Ireland I think you would have to agree they made some strange decisions because I think they thought they would win easily.

erm yes SA were bad against Ireland. Don't take anything away from Ireland who were excellent that day (quite possibly their best performance under Schmidt), but SA were awful in their inability to adjust to what Ireland were offering.

It was a tough match but yes and they did take some odd decisions as in kicks to the corner right? But the loss wasn't as much bad as say the Wales loss... Ireland were the 6N champs right?
I can't remember them running out of steam like they have done so this year but AIs are always tough for SH teams, end of season tours are like this similar to Summer tours for NH teams.

irrespective the key point is that had the rot set in at that point? They came back to beat England at Twickenham but then lose to Wales - teams don't become bad over...but in this case they seem to have.

It's not unusual for the boks to be inconsistent but they generally turn up in RWCs.

You really need to ask one question.

How does a team go from winning 75% of their matches from 2012 until October 2014, then lose 6 of their next seven tests?

If you can answer that, you can solve whatever is going on in the Springbok camp

I would suggest that teams have to a degree "worked them out" but that SA, for whatever reason - and there may be many - are stubbornly refusing to adapt the way they play.

Nope, not good enough.

You don't just get worked out and neutralised by all teams all of a sudden.

Think harder

It all brews down to the the senior players issue

De Villiers 34 didn't play a club game all season. First game was what Argentina?
Matfield 38. Old, good in lineout but liability elsewhere. Grandpa.
Burger 32. Thought he was past it but actually back to near his best.
Du Preez 33. 8 games in last 50 for boks.

Wings have been in the side since 2006.... yes they are good but their pace has left them. SA have no youthful speedster to finish like Habana & Pietersen used to.

Pivot. Lambie seems to be playing better but hasn't been in the team. Meyer has gone with Pollard all season who is very young.

I can imagine Meyer may drop Matfield, Burger and Lambie and bring in De Jager, Alberts and Steyn.

Biltong wrote:Nope, not good enough.

You don't just get worked out and neutralised by all teams all of a sudden.

Think harder

SAs coaching and preparation is poor. I can think of quite a few times that teams have outsmarted them or they have failed to understand their oppositions strengths:

vs Ireland in Nov. Completely outsmarted at the lineout with some innovative plays by Ireland. SA didnt seem to know what was going on. Very poor decision making too.
vs NZ in rugby championship. Again outsmarted by NZ in a fairly simple but effective lineout move to lose a game that they had dominated for spells.
vs Japan. The world and their mother knew Japan had developed an excellent attacking maul. SA didnt seem prepared for this at all. In the dying minutes Ezebeth should have been carded for pulling Japan's maul down and it should have been a penalty try, IMO SA were very lucky not to concede more at the maul.

Biltong wrote:Nope, not good enough.

You don't just get worked out and neutralised by all teams all of a sudden.

Think harder

Botha hanging up the boots? Too many players in Europe?

Pollard's confidence seemed to leave him pretty quick too..

Interesting that Eddie Jones has just been named Stormers coach.

The talks with Eddie Jones has been going on for a month now

The problem is also leadership on the pitch. I like Jean DeVilliers but I dont think he is a good captain. Heneke Meyer is clearly not a good coach either.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:Nope, not good enough.

You don't just get worked out and neutralised by all teams all of a sudden.

Think harder

SAs coaching and preparation is poor. I can think of quite a few times that teams have outsmarted them or they have failed to understand their oppositions strengths:

vs Ireland in Nov. Completely outsmarted at the lineout with some innovative plays by Ireland. SA didnt seem to know what was going on. Very poor decision making too.
vs NZ in rugby championship. Again outsmarted by NZ in a fairly simple but effective lineout move to lose a game that they had dominated for spells.
vs Japan. The world and their mother knew Japan had developed an excellent attacking maul. SA didnt seem prepared for this at all. In the dying minutes Ezebeth should have been carded for pulling Japan's maul down and it should have been a penalty try, IMO SA were very lucky not to concede more at the maul.

Yes, Ireland outsmarted them at the lone out with some anti rugby moves, the try by New Zealand was an attacking move that will outsmart most defences, Japanese Maul happened once or twice, not sure where the "more" wouod have come from.

Lets face facts Guns, you don't like SA, your comments are never flattering about them.

Yes I grant you are correct that Meyer is not coaching the Boks in a modern style. His coaching is not the big problem here though.

It is his selections, it has split the Springbok camp in two. There isn't competition in certain places because Meyer's selections have been too conservative and he cannot let go of the senior geriatrics.

His enmasse substitutions fails every time yet he continues to do it.

He refuses to accept any opinions other than his own.

Victor Matfield is a major obstacle to decision making and leadership on the field,mand nobody dares to disagree with what he says because he is the blue eyed boy who lives in Meyer's ear.

The Springboks has had major injuries this year.

Louw, Vermeulen, Coetzee, Pieter Stef du Toit, Etzebeth, Lambie, de Villiers, Fourie du Preez, Willie le Roux (still sitting with a bad ankle since Superrugby) have all had injuries and limited games.

Some of them should not even be there.

Meyer's biggest downfall is his selection criteria and the rift in the Bok camp because of it.

fa0019 wrote:
Scotland's pack could take them on. Nel could do a number on them... however do they have the belief to back it up? I'm not so sure.
Japan were always behind, that helps. But to lead and win is another thing and I'm not sure Scotland can do it. Lets see how they go about Japan first (which I can't see them losing. Scotland should win and win well IMO).

Belief Scotland should have - remember in recent years we have beaten SA. Problem for the Scots is do we go for power to match you up front - and maybe loose a bit of speed? Or do we go for speed ( the japanese lesson) and lose a bit of power?

Scotland will believe we can win the game and it should be close ( Against SA) Personally I would go for our speedy and skillful options ( Horne not Scott, anyone but Stokosh, Visser not Shlong etc) but it would be a risk

Scotland beat SA in 2010 right until terrible gale. That was the last time, since then and against others I don't think they've had the mental belief to beat better sides. They have the quality when they have all their players available, but the transition from good on paper to results has evaded Scotland for years.

Ireland showed that if you can devise a strategy to counter the Boks by outsmarting them, then the Boks can be relied upon to have no plan B and stubbornly keep with the same game-plan for 80 mins even if it isn't working. Japan just applied the same approach....and hey presto...

Biltong would you say it's the coaching team that needs 'freshening up' or the squad? There are some awesome players in the Bok team, such as the one that started against Japan, but some of those guys are just too old.

Both, Heyeneke Meyer is using an outdated gameplan with outdated players.

In 2012 I was screaming for Meyer to clean house.

Pieter de Villiers had a very notable comment he made to the sport commission, prior to the 2011 RWC.

He told them the Boks have a fear of failure and is therefor debilitated to expand their game or express themselves.

If w culture like that rxists in a team, the only way to change at ethos or culture is to start again.

Basically you need to get rud of that poison.

It never happened, and that same poison is still in the team, worse of all, they are the leadership

I'm loath to stick the knife into SA because I respect them so much, so I won't. But I have some questions.

Why do SA substitutes offer so little? It is usually a turning point in their recent games when the wheels fall off. Is it because they are: a) fed up about being on the bench and don't take the responsibility seriously or don't prepare well enough during the week? b) does HM not give his substitutes enough direction / inclusion during game week or during the game itself so they flounder around a bit?

Scotland have won as many games as Ireland versus Boks,though not recently,Japan took
a leaf out of the AB playbook.
Move the big boys around,and up the pace last 20 minutes,Boks will probably still win
this Group,but it may suit them now to finish second.
For another team to win this Group will have to win ALL there matches or get 5
bonus points,and lose to BOKs without conceding a bonus point.

emack2 wrote:Scotland have won as many games as Ireland versus Boks,though not recently,Japan took
a leaf out of the AB playbook.
Move the big boys around,and up the pace last 20 minutes,Boks will probably still win
this Group,but it may suit them now to finish second.
For another team to win this Group will have to win ALL there matches or get 5
bonus points,and lose to BOKs without conceding a bonus point.

I think Japan's 2nd try was straight out of Australia's playbook. Eddie Jones' Aussie team used that exact back move on a number of occasions at the '03 WC.

Credit to them they executed it to perfection.

ebop wrote:I'm loath to stick the knife into SA because I respect them so much, so I won't. But I have some questions.

Why do SA substitutes offer so little? It is usually a turning point in their recent games when the wheels fall off. Is it because they are: a) fed up about being on the bench and don't take the responsibility seriously or don't prepare well enough during the week? b) does HM not give his substitutes enough direction / inclusion during game week or during the game itself so they flounder around a bit?

I always find when Bissie comes off around 60-70mins, the machine stops working. Strauss is all gusto, no brains. My feeling is that its bissie's workrate in the ruck which has the greatest impact.

Nevertheless its the general conditioning of the side which is a problem. You can only make a max of 8 subs right... that still leaves 7 chaps who have to go the full match. The old guard can do the cover tackling for chaps such as Kriel but they tire eventually.

Also the senior players are either very old or get replaced often.. there is a leadership gulf when they go off and those who don't simply are half a step behind everyone else. Look at mccaw, Robshaw etc.. they never go off, never take a step back. Your captain needs to be your most respected and be able to last as good as anyone till the end. Come 60 mins the leaders are done, subbed and who is left to maintain the heads of the side?

It is sad to see what is happening to the Springboks when you just consider the talent we have locally, without the geriatrics.

15. Willie / Kriel / Coetzee / Taute
14. v/Wyk / Combrink / Ulengo / JP / Jordaan
13. Kriel / Vorster / Swanepoel / de Allende / Mapoe / Stokkies / JJ
12. de Allende / Serfontein / Odendaal / Frans Venter / Mnisi / Esterhuizen / Frans
11. Senatla / Sithole / Rhule / Kolbe / Habana
10. Pollard / Jantjies / Lambie / Goosen
9. Faf / Hougaard / Reinach / Groom / v/Zyl
1. Kitshoff / Nyakane / du Toit / Kebble / Beast
2. Bismark / Strauss / Marx / Scara / Mbonambi / Ackers
3. Coenie / Marcel / Malherbe/ Wilco Louw / Koch
4. Etzebeth / Willemse / Lood / Kleyn
5. Lood / PSDT / Jacques du Plessis / Ruan Botha / Lewies
6. Coetzee / Kriel / Brussouw / Kolisi / Carr / Labs
7. PSDT / Jacques du Plessis / Elstadt / v/d Walt / Oupa / Schalk
8. Vermeulen / Arno Botha / CJ Stander / Mtembu

Biltong wrote:You really need to ask one question.

How does a team go from winning 75% of their matches from 2012 until October 2014, then lose 6 of their next seven tests?

If you can answer that, you can solve whatever is going on in the Springbok camp

The comback of Vic?
Morne Steyn and Zane Kirchner lose public favour and HM start believing it (and opting for players you is defensively weaker)?

Even before then, we scraped through quite a few games. The draws against England and Argentina went our way, Scotland and Wales games we were lucky to win as well. So the 75% mark was not a realistic reflection of where we were.

FerN wrote:

Biltong wrote:You really need to ask one question.

How does a team go from winning 75% of their matches from 2012 until October 2014, then lose 6 of their next seven tests?

If you can answer that, you can solve whatever is going on in the Springbok camp

The comback of Vic?
Morne Steyn and Zane Kirchner lose public favour and HM start believing it (and opting for players you is defensively weaker)?

Even before then, we scraped through quite a few games.  The draws against England and Argentina went our way, Scotland and Wales games we were lucky to win as well.  So the 75% mark was not a realistic reflection of where we were.

Perhaps not, but we were winning the close ones, not losing them

Biltong wrote:

FerN wrote:

Biltong wrote:You really need to ask one question.

How does a team go from winning 75% of their matches from 2012 until October 2014, then lose 6 of their next seven tests?

If you can answer that, you can solve whatever is going on in the Springbok camp

The comback of Vic?
Morne Steyn and Zane Kirchner lose public favour and HM start believing it (and opting for players you is defensively weaker)?

Even before then, we scraped through quite a few games.  The draws against England and Argentina went our way, Scotland and Wales games we were lucky to win as well.  So the 75% mark was not a realistic reflection of where we were.

Perhaps not, but we were winning the close ones, not losing them

I just think we are a bit unlucky. We had quite a few first choice people in the team that was injured and only got ready a few days before the match or not yet. I know our direct brand of rugby makes that we do have quite a few injuries at any period of time. I just don't think we should have came into the RWC with so many injured people in our squad.

If what you say about a fist fight is true (assuming after the game), that might also indicate some unhappiness before the game started. And we also had this dark cloud looming over us with Cosatu etc. Not good for team morale.