England v Wales, 26 September

First topic message reminder :


ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

England should win this game at a canter. Wales will only have about 10 players left by the time the final whistle blows.

We have a choice between Cuthbert and Amos on one wing, a fullback with only one good leg, and a tighthead cover who cannot play more than 30mins.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you think on current form Ashton was playing better for England when he was dropped than May is now?

You're still trying to put words in peoples mouths though aren't you. The 'hype' around May; really people are judging him on his performances. I think most people couldn't see beyond Watson and Nowell coming up to the world cup yet May has done brilliantly and even yourself can only point to a great bit of play from Matawalo.

Well you know I have never been impressed by May's international performances as a whole so I think Ashton could have been kept on.

Admittedly he did well in the warm ups but that's not the same as doing so in the biggest ones.

Also I think Nowell has been very unlucky to be ditched for May because Nowell had a good 6 nations.

Fookin hell, I think you are the only man in the whole of England who thinks Chris fookin Ashton actually is a competent international level rugby player

TBF I would have had Ashton in the team at the start of 2014 6Ns but I was proved wrong. May for me has performed better in his internationals than Ashton in his last 12 months or so. He was a bit up and down but he's running straighter, was excellent against Irelands aerial bombardment, was good against Fiji with no ball, involved in 2 tries was it? You can't really criticise no tries in the Fiji match if he didn't get a chance. Unlike Ashton who if he isn't scoring isn't providing much to the team I think we now have 3 wings who offer a great threat, with different strengths but all add to the teams play.

Bambam well I must be the only man in the whole of England who isn't an idiot.

Ashton has 19 tries in 39 internationals. Whether you like him or not that's a good strike rate.

He's a good player just needs to be utilised properly. Don't know why you're bringing him up though.

My criticism of May is not because of Ashton why can't you get that into your thick skull?

You don't see me calling for Goode to start instead of Brown do you?

No of course not because that would be stupid.

I just haven't been convinced by May throughout his international career. Want him to prove me wrong.

Ashton is a great finisher - unfortunately thats all he is.

You brought him up didn't you? Great record, last 12 months performances were ropey to say the least though weren't they? Of course that's the coaches fault and not a loss of form and the opposition getting to know his strengths bit more.

Yep, you're the only sane one in the asylum beshocked.

You brought him up with your oh so subtle hint about other England wings who have been criticised for defence in the past

I notice you still don't comment on his utter cowardice, I'd fancy the local under 10s girls team winger to show more desire in the tackle and not fanny about with trying to drag them down once they are past

beshocked wrote:Bambam well I must be the only man in the whole of England who isn't an idiot.

Ashton has 19 tries in 39 internationals. Whether you like him or not that's a good strike rate.

He's a good player just needs to be utilised properly. Don't know why you're bringing him up though.

That's comedy gold is that.

Taxi! Taxi!

BamBam wrote:Yep, you're the only sane one in the asylum beshocked.

You brought him up with your oh so subtle hint about other England wings who have been criticised for defence in the past

I notice you still don't comment on his utter cowardice, I'd fancy the local under 10s girls team winger to show more desire in the tackle and not fanny about with trying to drag them down once they are past by the hair

Fixed it.

Ashton's strength is running lines off other players so that they can put him into space. He was exceptional when he was playing with Foden, who understood his game and could find that space. But somewhere along the way - possibly when Foden got injured - he lost a lot of effectiveness and seemed to lose confidence that he could beat players one on one.

Add to that some weak defence and he doesn't seem to fit well in the current England system, despite playing well at club level.

May came into the squad with some positional weakness in defence and a bad habit of crabbing across the pitch and eating up the space when confronted with opponents. I had my doubts about him despite some tries. But since the warm-ups he's shown that he's really worked on running straight and taking the tackle, and his defensive positioning has improved. While there's still stuff to work on, he also uses his speed to chase down the ball or the player on a line break - I'm not sure we've got anyone else who can do that.

I'm going to massively change the subject and ask, second row who do we go for:

Lawes, Parling
Lawes, Launchbury
Launchbury, Parling

Cole was not good, does he need someone heavy packing down behind him to give him a shove?

I think we need Launchbury's weight so for me he starts.

If Burgess and Roberts play then that will be a hell of a clash. Wales will need to be a bit smarter as we seen a few year back when they just picked Worsley to tackle Roberts all day.

Using Roberts as the decoy and trying to get Scott Williams against Burgess may prove a little more beneficial as Williams is a lot more skillful than Roberts.

Bambam

Yet May is given a free pass for not even attempting to tackle Matawalu when he lets him run past him.

I don't think any of the wingers bar perhaps Nowell can defend.

Poor defence is poor defence whether it's avoiding tackling all together, poor technique etc.

no 7 & 1/2 it's these double standards that frustate me.

Ashton struggles to tackle one of the best wingers in the world - he's a rubbish tackler. May struggles to tackle numerous players - not his fault.... it was that other bloke....

I would say that both are poor defenders but it's only Ashton's defence taken into account.

With all due respect the ABs are a better team than Fiji.


Lawes-Launchbury.

As a pathetically ignorant neutral, can I ask why Cole is suddenly not playing well? Or is 'suddenly' not an accurate description?

Come off it beshocked, I'm not judging Ashton on Savea, I'm judging him on his career. When he burst onto the scene and scoring shed loads it's not as important but when the tries started to dry up he wasn't adding enough elsewhere in the team to keep his spot and was defensively weak. I was one of those calling on him to be kept as his club form was good and I was hoping he could start to replicate that again for England; it didn't happen. Again May was quite widely criticised for defensive mistakes and positioning and will be again. A few of us though feel he didn't do badly at all on Saturday and has provided very good, fast cover in the last few games as well. You keep trying to put words in peoples mouths, he's not perfect.

George Carlin wrote:As a pathetically ignorant neutral, can I ask why Cole is suddenly not playing well? Or is 'suddenly' not an accurate description?

Been off the boil for club and country for a while now. Hasn't been the same since shoulder surgery a while back.

If May is defending against North, he might have a spot of bother, but if he is defending against Cuthbert I would not worry about it.

Jimpy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:As a pathetically ignorant neutral, can I ask why Cole is suddenly not playing well? Or is 'suddenly' not an accurate description?

Been off the boil for club and country for a while now. Hasn't been the same since shoulder surgery a while back.

On form alone, Brookes would be starting, when the replacements came on the scrum was better. But that is a big call and I can't see Lancaster doing it. Marler also wasn't great.

LordDowlais wrote:If May is defending against North, he might have a spot of bother, but if he is defending against Cuthbert I would not worry about it.

LD,

That works both ways as well mind as I don't have faith in North or Cuthberts defence both are poor for guys of their size. If Watson is up against Cuthbert he will skin him alive all night long.

True actually lorddowlais.

Does fill me with a bit of relief that it will be May vs Cuthbert. Not North.

More optimistic now, cheers.

no 7 & 1/2 I think we've done the May discussion to death now. I hope he plays well vs Wales as I expect he will start.

Problem is, is that we are not getting the ball to North in space or in areas where he can do damage.

Lucky it is May/Watson/Nowell who will be up against the Welsh wings, can you imagine what sort of a massacre it would be down whichever wing Ashton was on if he was starting?

And thats even taking Cuthbert's wretched form into consideration, if there's one man whose defence can raise the confidence of any opposition player, its Chris Ashton

May is a better defender than Watson who will be (I assume) on North's wing, no matter what Beshocked says.

What we have done very well against Wales in the last couple of games is close down the space the big wingers have before they get any momentum going

bedfordwelsh that's the problem that any team can face.

Some teams are better than utilising wingers than others. Some wingers are better at involving themselves than others too.

In regards to Cuthbert, would you prefer to see another winger or would you be happy with him in his current form facing England?

Bambam entitled to your opinion but I don't think Ashton is any worse defensively than Watson,May,Wade or Yarde.

Also I am sure if that was the case more wingers would have scored down Ashton's wing in the club season than did.

lostinwales I don't think either Watson or May are good defenders but Watson has IMO been a better attacker.

beshocked wrote:bedfordwelsh that's the problem that any team can face.

Some teams are better than utilising wingers than others. Some wingers are better at involving themselves than others too.

In regards to Cuthbert, would you prefer to see another winger or would you be happy with him in his current form facing England?

Bambam entitled to your opinion but I don't think Ashton is any worse defensively than Watson,May,Wade or Yarde.

Also I am sure if that was the case more wingers would have scored down Ashton's wing in the club season than did.

Beshocked,

Agree but when he is one of our main strike weapons you would have thought we would try more to get ball to him. With regards to Cuthbert if Liam Williams is fit then I would pick Hallam Amos, if Williams is unfit then I guess Amos may well get the nod at XV which means Cuthbert gets a reprieve.

Saracens are a very good team though beshocked surely you'd agree. They base the bulk of their play on defence as well so you'd imagine the team in general would concede less tries. They probably also have a stronger team and squad than they should have so we have to take that into account as well. Ashton for me is a the worst defender followed by Yarde and Wade.

Jimpy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:As a pathetically ignorant neutral, can I ask why Cole is suddenly not playing well? Or is 'suddenly' not an accurate description?

Been off the boil for club and country for a while now. Hasn't been the same since shoulder surgery a while back.

 Shame, because when he's on form, he's world class.

He's still pretty young for a good prop though, so I'm assuming that the swing will come back.

beshocked wrote:Bambam

Yet May is given a free pass for not even attempting to tackle Matawalu when he lets him run past him.

I don't think any of the wingers bar perhaps Nowell can defend.

Poor defence is poor defence whether it's avoiding tackling all together, poor technique etc.

no 7 & 1/2 it's these double standards that frustate me.

Ashton struggles to tackle one of the best wingers in the world - he's a rubbish tackler. May struggles to tackle numerous players - not his fault.... it was that other bloke....

I would say that both are poor defenders but it's only Ashton's defence taken into account.

With all due respect the ABs are a better team than Fiji.


Lawes-Launchbury.

What game were you watching? May got sold a sidestep, then turned and caught Matawalu, with Brown dislodging the ball. That's not remotely comparable to some of the abject attempts at tackling made by Ashton throughout his career. May is much stronger defensively than Ashton. He's also far more suited to England's current gameplan.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bambam

Yet May is given a free pass for not even attempting to tackle Matawalu when he lets him run past him.

I don't think any of the wingers bar perhaps Nowell can defend.

Poor defence is poor defence whether it's avoiding tackling all together, poor technique etc.

no 7 & 1/2 it's these double standards that frustate me.

Ashton struggles to tackle one of the best wingers in the world - he's a rubbish tackler. May struggles to tackle numerous players - not his fault.... it was that other bloke....

I would say that both are poor defenders but it's only Ashton's defence taken into account.

With all due respect the ABs are a better team than Fiji.


Lawes-Launchbury.

What game were you watching? May got sold a sidestep, then turned and caught Matawalu, with Brown dislodging the ball. That's not remotely comparable to some of the abject attempts at tackling made by Ashton throughout his career. May is much stronger defensively than Ashton. He's also far more suited to England's current gameplan.

Probably worth asking any passing Glasgow supporters about how often anyone catches Matawalu from behind and virtually a standing start. May has made defensive errors but you don't cringe when seeing him attempt a tackle

Matawalu is seriously quick so the fact may even got to attempt a tackle in first place says something. He did get stepped fairly easy but then again Matawalu is a class act and has done it to better players than May.

Isn't it a bit risky to play Amos?

I agree need to use North.

lostinwales you're right. England have done a great job keeping North and Cuthbert quiet and guess May should take some of that credit too.

Makes me feel more positive. You're convincing me that perhaps May should start vs Wales.

I guess it's fair to give him another go.


To be honest I would be a bit upset if a winger couldn't catch a 9 but that's just me.....

As for May being a much better defender..... well we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ashton had plenty of chances to show he could defend at international level. His flapping arms around the shoulders of opponents was an utter embarrassment. Glad hes gone.

beshocked wrote:Isn't it a bit risky to play Amos?

I agree need to use North.

lostinwales you're right. England have done a great job keeping North and Cuthbert quiet and guess May should take some of that credit too.

Makes me feel more positive. You're convincing me that perhaps May should start vs Wales.

I guess it's fair to give him another go.


To be honest I would be a bit upset if a winger couldn't catch a 9 but that's just me.....

As for May being a much better defender..... well we'll have to agree to disagree.

It would be at XV but don't see who else there is if Williams is out, yes people will say Hook but for me that's just as much a risk. Playing Amos on the wing for me is no more a risk than Cuthbert and at least he has good club form to bring to the game unlike Cuthbert who has no form at all of late. Amos would also be a little bit of the unknown unlike Cuthbert

Matawalu is no ordinary 9. Ashton wouldn't have got within 10m of him

I think May is the only player who could have caught Matawalu, he's what a sub 10.6 man for the 100 so his position becomes a bit irrelevant.

Bambam Ashton is quick, course he would. His pace is pretty underrated.

bedfordwelsh perhaps but would be a lot of pressure on Amos.

Cuthbert might not been in form but he's one of Gatland's favourites.

Form vs Experience.

It's a risk - could pay off.

Will Wales start Amos, will England start Burgess for example.

To be honest I think both might happen.

So you would back Ashton to keep up with May in a footrace? Because May only just got there

"Bambam Ashton is quick, course he would. His pace is pretty underrated."

Rubbish. Ashton was born without the defensive gene. Once a player had got past him as they invariably did he gave up the foot race on most occasions. Rather like Varndell. He also suddenly became much slower when having to run back and catch someone.

englandglory4ever wrote:Rather like Varndell. He also suddenly became much slower when having to run back and catch someone.

Not unfair, though without this tackle Wasps could have gone out of business.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/04/2522/sam-vesty-butchers-try-as-tom-varndell-chases-him-down

Bambam well actually I think May has faster acceleration but when Ashton gets going he's very difficult to catch. So perhaps in this case you are right. Ashton wouldn't catch Matawalu simply because Ashton's pace is based on top speed rather than raw acceleration.

Or he wouldn't catch him because he's not fast enough

I think it goes without saying that Jonny May is faster than Chris Ashton, bit silly to try and suggest anything else.

Would have like to see either of them catch Joe Simpson.

Bambam sorry what's your point anyway?

beshocked, I've tended to feel a degree of sympathy for your views in the past because Sarries (and their players) are often given a rough ride. However, I think you've just been itching to have a go at certain players and maybe you just like an argument?

Criticising May for basically recovering from a standing start against one of the quickest 9s in the game is a bit odd. He's been one of the form players and is scoring tries.

For the record I think Ashton is a better and more-rounded player than many suggest but he's currently in the chasing pack of about 6 players behind the incumbents. Maybe he's been unlucky that his being out of the squad was timed with a period when the wingers got more ball, but that's life.

Maybe we can pick this up after the next round of Champions Cup games and moving into the 6 Nations selections? Obviously, bar injuries, there won't be any changes.

Nowell has been playing well too (one of the few that were good in France) but he's having to be patient too.

Anyone fancy a draw for this one?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I think May is the only player who could have caught Matawalu, he's what a sub 10.6 man for the 100 so his position becomes a bit irrelevant.

The way he jumps into the tackles I'd say he must do a decent time on the 110m hurdles too....

beshocked wrote:Bambam sorry what's your point anyway?

Just focusing on minute details that have no impact on the game/player being discussed

England's back 3 and reserve front row is what worries me the most. Given our injuries and lack of experience those areas are where we are heaviest hit. Hope Lee and Williams are fit to play.