England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

fa0019 it's a real disappointment how the scrum has gone from a real strength for England to a weakness.

To be honest I don't think the loss of Hartley can be underestimated. He's a lump and though he's a disciplinary liability has been England's most reliable hooker at the set piece for some time.

England had similar problems with the set piece when Lee Mears was England hooker that they now have with Youngs.

It's why I don't know why Lancaster hasn't trusted either of the other two hookers in the England 31.

England have a big problem and Lancaster isn't looking to fix it.

beshocked wrote:

I actually think that the England forwards will win it. Last time out they were much better than the Welsh. Home advantage is also worth an extra man. When Biggar misses a kick at goal they'll have nothing left. England must keep the penalty count low.

They need to bring Launhbury back.

Parling and Lawes as a combo is too underpowered

GeordieFalcon wrote:They need to bring Launhbury back. Parling and Lawes is two underpowered a combo.

I think they will. It wasn't that Parling was bad, but Launchbury's cameo was really impressive

GeordieFalcon wrote:They need to bring Launhbury back.

Parling and Lawes as a combo is too underpowered

I agree Lawes isn't good enough in the tight. Good athletic tackler but ENgland don't have that luxury without hartley and the props struggling.

englandglory4ever wrote:I actually think that the England forwards will win it. Last time out they were much better than the Welsh. Home advantage is also worth an extra man. When Biggar misses a kick at goal they'll have nothing left. England must keep the penalty count low.

Easier said than done though. England's discipline hasn't been particularly good IMO.

England were fortunate that Fiji didn't have a good goal kicker, Biggar should be better though he'll be under a lot of pressure.

There's been a lot of talk about pressure. England need to make sure they pile it onto Wales.

Who will start at 9 for Wales? Won't it be an inexperienced player? Surely England can start there with piling the pressure.

I would most definitely get whoever starts at no 8 testing the defensive resolve of the 9.

Should Wales bring back Phillips for this one? I'd say no... they need a fluid game reader even though he loves the battle.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:This is all still speculation right?

Maybe SL is playing mind games?

It would be amusing if after all this the midfield was announced as Ford Slade Joseph

no doubt we'd get a similar bunch of posters moaning about it being too lightweight. After all plenty were moaning about the lack of impact from the bench vs Fiji, when said bench provided, well, quite a lot of impact

Rumours now that Joseph is out for a considerable time. All the pool games etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11884427/Rugby-World-Cup-Jonathan-Joseph-to-miss-whole-pool-stage-for-England.html

This makes it even more important to play Slade, I don't think we can beat Australia with such a limited centre pairing considering the talent they have in their backline. If Wales and Australia keep their discipline in their own half I think we will have a serious problem beating them because our backline does not look set up to score tries.

Against AUS England will need a different backline I agree.... see how Burgess vs. Barritt goes, if Burgess does well... drop Barritt and bring back Joseph/Slade.

Yeah the Aussies will lap up a Burgess Barritt combo, they're used to the biggest SA and NZ centres

Can just see Burgess running into contact, being chopped down and one of Hooper/Pocock to be waiting, ergh

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be Man of the Match.

Either that or a crumpled heap in a corner after trying to get past Slamming Sam a couple of time

I can't think of a more cringe-making nickname in rugby at the moment. Especially when Miles Harrison says it.

Unless Lydiate has chop tackled Burgess out of the game by then

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

HKC, Farrell can play flat and has done so for England, it was a while ago, but against what Wales are likely to throw at us, I have no problem with Farrell at 10 and SB at 12. But if we go there, we need Care at 9 to keep the back row honest. Farrell used to be pretty good at the offload and if SB is in tune with him and either May or Watson join in it could be VERY effective. Agree that Barritt is not the man for 13, but didn't he play there when we beat the AB and scored a try? Slade would be my choice just to allow our best attacking players to get into the game, a risk, but what isn't. Playing Barritt there is a risk, especially after last Friday.

If the reports are correct I am looking forward to watching the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. One is going to get seriously hurt though if they both go at it hell for leather or worse both.

I'm afraid I largely disagree with your comments. Farrell can play flat, but is ineffective in such a manner and it will nullify SB's crash ball potency. If we are reliant on Farrell playing flat then the last thing we need is the SH with the worst pass. Care still insists on taking one step before passing and this will severely reduce the time Farrell would have. I agree with an earlier comment by Beshocked that Wigglesworth should start as he would help provide better game management, which has been lacking recently. Furthermore, a FH off-loading game is always going to be limited as invariably he will have at least 2 players attempting a tackle, so it is unlikely this will open up holes.

It's clear that Ben Youngs, Ford and Barritt didn't play that well on Friday. Of those 3, I'd say Barritt was the weakest performance (not surprising if you consider the amount of game time he's had recently).

Here's my guess:

If Joseph had been fit, I think Lancaster would've gone Ford, Burgess, Joseph with just Barritt being dropped. Bath axis and give Youngs another chance.

But Joseph appears to be out. Now, to drop Barritt would mean 2 new centres. So, Burgess and Barritt is the best for continuity. Then the question is about fly-half. Does Ford's creativity enable that centre partnership to work? Probably not with Ford in his current form. So, in for a penny in for a pound - shut up shop and hope your creativity come from Youngs (hence no Wigglesworth).

People say 'where's the consistency?', but form MUST play a big part. All things being equal, I think Ford is better than Farrell, but not so much better than when one is in form and the other isn't, you can continue playing him.

I, for one, am extremely interested to see how Burgess does. If he does well, I'd love to see him partnered with Joseph in the later games.

This will be a scrap with changes and unfamiliarity on both teams. Farrell's a scrapper.

If this selection does come to pass, they'll need a bench of:

Wiggleworth
Ford
Nowell

Torygraph thinks it Goode on the bench

Reading some of this thread tells me a lot about England's problem. In Wales (when we are being honest) our first team picks itself with one or two genuine alternatives as we simply don't have too many test level options.

Already after one game (and to my knowledge one injury) England fans are talking about whose on form and what are the best options. Talk about too much choice!

Ford is twice the talent that is Farrell but has to make way. Days ago Barritt was the nailed on 12, but now he must be dropped or moved to make way for a novice who is always out of position. Oh, and if we have a new 10,12 and 13 we'd better change the 9 too.

With the biggest playing base and so many top quality players England cant figure out its best XV. Surely the best thing for the team and for beating Wales would be to bring in Slade for Joseph and keep a really potent back line intact. You then have a really impactful bench to bring on as necessary in the last quarter. Still, what do I know....

..... obviously more than most of the posters on here. I think if Lancaster was confident we had a pack which could beat Wales, then he would go for a more attacking backline. As we don't have an in form or dominant pack, he is bolstering up the backs by picking Burgess to simply stop Roberts (as Joe Worsley did a few years back) and is hoping Farrell can kick us to victory. Winning the game is the be all and end all here - style and progression have gone out of the window. To trot out one of the many isms "You don't win the world cup in the group stages, you can only lose it'.

To all English fans being pessimistic, your playing Wales not Australia. True, if that midfield was picked against AU's it would get ripped apart. Wales on the other hand, no chance.
Its perfect midfield to start against Wales, will soak up our basic direct running. I don't care what Gatland says about working on new stuff(which I highly doubt) doing it in a game, for the 1st time is unlikely to work.
You may struggle to get your outside backs into the game, but not to worry, we will supply them all evening long with our kicks down middle of the park. If its still close towards the end then ulyou can bring on the likes of Slade and Ford to do the business to an either tired starting back line or inferior substitutes.
I'd say Liam Williams is the only player with the balls to tell Garland to stick his game plan up his are and try something different, but he may not be fit and will definitely be rusty.
Our only chance in this game I reckon is at the breakdown and set peice(a chance not a certainty) and can't say I'm confident. We don't have a good enough bench. All that being said when Sat rolls on I be certain of a victory!!!

offload wrote:Reading some of this thread tells me a lot about England's problem.  In Wales (when we are being honest) our first team picks itself with one or two genuine alternatives as we simply don't have too many test level options.

Already after one game (and to my knowledge one injury) England fans are talking about whose on form and what are the best options.  Talk about too much choice!

Ford is twice the talent that is Farrell but has to make way.  Days ago Barritt was the nailed on 12, but now he must be dropped or moved to make way for a novice who is always out of position. Oh, and if we have a new 10,12 and 13 we'd better change the 9 too.  

With the biggest playing base and so many top quality players England cant figure out its best XV.  Surely the best thing for the team and for beating Wales would be to bring in Slade for Joseph and keep a really potent back line intact.  You then have a really impactful bench to bring on as necessary in the last quarter.  Still, what do I know....

Well you are on to something. What it does mean is that we should be able to deal with injuries a lot better but there are always a lot of different opinions. As for the players themselves the thinking is that Slade is a genuine talent and yes it would be great to see him play.

As for Farrell vs Ford I do think Ford has more potential but I don't think hes twice the player. There are things he does like the nice breaks which are beyond Farrell, and his general distribution is better. But Farrell at his best is a good player. Great tackler, reliable boot, aggressive attitude (when it, as it usually is, is under control). He hasn't been at his best for a long time but there was good evidence in the Fiji game that he might be now.

Biggar was famously the one Welshman that Gatland left behind on the Lions tour (taking Farrell instead). Now Biggar is probably a better player than he was then, but then I think the Farrell that came off the subs bench last week is also a better player than on that tour.

Funny, a good deal of the Welsh and some of the English don't appear to have much confidence in a result going into this match.

I wonder, given that Wales can ill afford anymore injuries, how will this impact on their game plan. England could absorb a certain amount of injuries and so may be the team to take the initiative. Will Wales look to protect the players and nick a win if its on?

kingjohn7 wrote:To all English fans being pessimistic, your playing Wales not Australia. True, if that midfield was picked against AU's it would get ripped apart. Wales on the other hand, no chance.
Its perfect midfield to start against Wales, will soak up our basic direct running. I don't care what Gatland says about working on new stuff(which I highly doubt) doing it in a game, for the 1st time is unlikely to work.
You may struggle to get your outside backs into the game, but not to worry, we will supply them all evening long with our kicks down middle of the park. If its still close towards the end then ulyou can bring on the likes of Slade and Ford to do the business to an either tired starting back line or inferior substitutes.
I'd say Liam Williams is the only player with the balls to tell Garland to stick his game plan up his are and try something different, but he may not be fit and will definitely be rusty.
Our only chance in this game I reckon is at the breakdown and set peice(a chance not a certainty) and can't say I'm confident. We don't have a good enough bench. All that being said when Sat rolls on I be certain of a victory!!!

In the 6N Liam Williams was the one Welsh back who looked up to the task and actually dangerous with the ball. Why they kept North on for so long when he wasn't all there instead I'll never know. Can't say his prep for Saturday is exactly ideal though

If England are selecting Goode as the bench replacement, presumably alongside Ford, then who is going to cover centre if there is an injury or if one of the centre is having a shocker? It doesn't make sense.

Also looks like Billy is in as an injury replacement to Morgan and Joseph is now a doubt for the rest of the pool stages. If that latter is true, are England thinking that this midfield will get them out of the pool?

Goode and Farrell will cover centres.

Burgess can cover 8

surely Tom Wood should shift to number 8?

Jimpy wrote:Funny, a good deal of the Welsh and some of the English don't appear to have much confidence in a result going into this match.

I wonder, given that Wales can ill afford anymore injuries, how will this impact on their game plan. England could absorb a certain amount of injuries and so may be the team to take the initiative. Will Wales look to protect the players and nick a win if its on?

I would say Wales intention would be to win at all costs...! To get out of this group you can not let a game slip. Else you will be relying on other teams doing you a favour.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:surely Tom Wood should shift to number 8?

And maybe Brown on the wing.

offload wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:surely Tom Wood should shift to number 8?

And maybe Brown on the wing.

now there's an idea. Shift May to the centre to replace Joseph, Brown to wing, and this frees up a space for Goode at full-back to play first receiver at times and take pressure from Farrell. It all fits

maestegmafia wrote:I would say Wales intention would be to win at all costs...! To get out of this group you can not let a game slip. Else you will be relying on other teams doing you a favour.

Absolutely, I believe Wales have to win. If we don't we will have zero confidence playing Australia after 10 straight defeats. England will be more confident playing Australia whatever the outcome on Saturday. Call me a drama queen, but Saturday IS our World Cup.

offload wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would say Wales intention would be to win at all costs...! To get out of this group you can not let a game slip. Else you will be relying on other teams doing you a favour.

Absolutely, I believe Wales have to win.  If we don't we will have zero confidence playing Australia after 10 straight defeats.  England will be more confident playing Australia whatever the outcome on Saturday.  Call me a drama queen, but Saturday IS our World Cup.

I agree... That is also the statement that is coming from Gatland and his team

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think I'll ever fully understand why Gatland is so hated as a coach, including by many Welsh fans. He seems to be blamed for everything bad that happens to Welsh rugby, whilst his many achievements tend to be credited to others.

Just look at his record and his achievements, and name a better NH coach in the last decade.

I'm not so sure it is by that many Welsh fans but certainly most other fans, however some Welsh often disagree with some of his selections and tactics, and rightly so. As you say his record with all the teams that he has coached speaks for itself and I've never ever seen any Welsh fan try to accredit his achievements to say, the like of McBryde and Howley.... Probably no better coach in the NH, but fellow Kiwi Schmidt is hot on his heels.

mikey_dragon wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think I'll ever fully understand why Gatland is so hated as a coach, including by many Welsh fans. He seems to be blamed for everything bad that happens to Welsh rugby, whilst his many achievements tend to be credited to others.

Just look at his record and his achievements, and name a better NH coach in the last decade.

I'm not so sure it is by that many Welsh fans but certainly most other fans, however some Welsh often disagree with some of his selections and tactics, and rightly so. As you say his record with all the teams that he has coached speaks for itself and I've never ever seen any Welsh fan try to accredit his achievements to say, the like of McBryde and Howley.... Probably no better coach in the NH, but fellow Kiwi Schmidt is hot on his heels.

It's because he comes across as being a bit of an arse, and people don't like arses.

FES I think the reason Gatland is sometimes criticised as a coach because of Wales' dire record against the SH sides under his watch. Also he's made some questionable selections like backing an out of form Priestland and picking Phillips.

Plus there's also the belief that Wales only play Gatlandball and believe that Wales should be developing a more attacking style.

Gatland's record in the 6 nations and vs NH sides is very good though.

Wales currently 4th in the world suggests that Gatland is doing something right.

Billy Vunipola should have started anyway. Pleased that Haskell is on the bench because if he brings his A game off the bench he can be a real handful. Plus he can cover 6,7,8 albeit would rather see him replace Wood for a bit more power in the last 20.

Notch wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think I'll ever fully understand why Gatland is so hated as a coach, including by many Welsh fans. He seems to be blamed for everything bad that happens to Welsh rugby, whilst his many achievements tend to be credited to others.

Just look at his record and his achievements, and name a better NH coach in the last decade.

I'm not so sure it is by that many Welsh fans but certainly most other fans, however some Welsh often disagree with some of his selections and tactics, and rightly so. As you say his record with all the teams that he has coached speaks for itself and I've never ever seen any Welsh fan try to accredit his achievements to say, the like of McBryde and Howley.... Probably no better coach in the NH, but fellow Kiwi Schmidt is hot on his heels.

It's because he comes across as being a bit of an arse, and people don't like arses.

He speaks his mind... And some people can't handle that! Apart from some silly comments about hating the Irish (was always going to be taken as 'shots fired' no matter what he said) I can't really disagree with anything that he's come out with in press conferences. Guys like Quinlan and Wood, especially when Ireland are due to play Wales come across as much bigger arses .

beshocked wrote:

Wales currently 4th in the world suggests that Gatland is doing something right.

I think Japan gave a helping hand there. Speaking of which, are you now going to obsess over Japan's win against SA?

mikey dragon I thought the Japan win over SA was amazing and more impressive than the win over Wales.

To be fair it wasn't a full strength Welsh side either.

Also Japan do have Eddie Jones and Steve Borthwick who as coaches have proven to very accomplished indeed so far

Lineout has been excellent by Japan - Borthwick needs to help England with the lineout!

jamesandimac wrote:If England are selecting Goode as the bench replacement, presumably alongside Ford, then who is going to cover centre if there is an injury or if one of the centre is having a shocker?

Farrell would move to the centre and Ford would come on at fly half.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon I thought the Japan win over SA was amazing and more impressive than the win over Wales.

To be fair it wasn't a full strength Welsh side either.

Also Japan do have Eddie Jones and Steve Borthwick who as coaches have proven to very accomplished indeed so far

Lineout has been excellent by Japan - Borthwick needs to help England with the lineout!

Yeah that's true. I bet it was down to Japan's various 'connections' to England though. Wonder how many England-eligible players they have?

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon I thought the Japan win over SA was amazing and more impressive than the win over Wales.

To be fair it wasn't a full strength Welsh side either.

Also Japan do have Eddie Jones and Steve Borthwick who as coaches have proven to very accomplished indeed so far

Lineout has been excellent by Japan - Borthwick needs to help England with the lineout!

Yeah that's true. I bet it was down to Japan's various 'connections' to England though. Wonder how many England-eligible players they have?

Depends on how many of their Kiwi's have an English grandparent....

If we get quick ball from our fowards then I actually think that the 10-13 selected could do a lot of damage (well 10 and 12 anyway).

If it's slow ball and aimless kicking like the last game though, could be a long night.

so were some of the injuries Warren mind games then? Looking like several will be fine and Eng have real problems.

Not looking forward to this game at all. Not sure I'll be able to watch it to be honest! I'll be in Snowdonia after conquering a peak or two and watching it in a dark, backward village pub somewhere, which I'm looking forward to immensely, but may need to spend some time on my own in the beer garden if it gets a bit close! Can't handle the nerves and anxiety this sport sometimes brings me unfortunately!

Sounds like a great day out Griff

Which peaks are you taking on... Have to get back up there before I get too old

Griff wrote:Not looking forward to this game at all. Not sure I'll be able to watch it to be honest! I'll be in Snowdonia after conquering a peak or two and watching it in a dark, backward village pub somewhere, which I'm looking forward to immensely, but may need to spend some time on my own in the beer garden if it gets a bit close! Can't handle the nerves and anxiety this sport sometimes brings me unfortunately!

Join the club, Griff. No other sport does it too me. A cold sweat.

Not massively into walking Maes, but usually do a north wales Autumn trip once a year and do Pen y Fan a few times a year (up and back home in a morning though). It's more an excuse to get away with the boys for a weekend! More palatable for the Mrs signing off my pass than a weekend in Magaluf, although we'll still have a fair few beers!

Did Snowdon last year and doing Cadair Idris this time. Not as challenging, and won't take too long, but should put us in the mood for a few beers afterwards. Think we're going up up and down twice on different paths/tracks. We're staying near Barmouth somewhere. Lovely part of Wales.

Great have fun hope the rugby lives up to the trip, plenty of highs and lows this weekend I'm sure

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:Not looking forward to this game at all. Not sure I'll be able to watch it to be honest! I'll be in Snowdonia after conquering a peak or two and watching it in a dark, backward village pub somewhere, which I'm looking forward to immensely, but may need to spend some time on my own in the beer garden if it gets a bit close! Can't handle the nerves and anxiety this sport sometimes brings me unfortunately!

Join the club, Griff.  No other sport does it too me.   A cold sweat.

Yeah I agree, no other sport does it to me. Edge of the seat stuff. Pacing, butterflies, sweats, the lot! I support a football team (*cough* Aston Villa *cough* ) but I certainly don't get excited watching them. In fact, I barely do watch them! Athletics is up there though. Probably my 2nd sport in excitement stakes, believe it or not.

I love a bit of track and field. Middle distance was my thing in school.

maestegmafia wrote:Great have fun hope the rugby lives up to the trip, plenty of highs and lows this weekend I'm sure

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I love a bit of track and field. Middle distance was my thing in school.

I won the high jump 5 years running at sports day, which is bizarre as I'm quite short! I was then sent to a TSB Schools Games to represent the school and came 5th out of 8 performing the 'Mexican roll' vs other boys' Fosbury Flops as our school wouldnt let us do them!

Anyway, back to the rugby.........

I've never, ever been confident of a win for Wales at Twickers. More confident in recent years (2008-present) than pre Gatland for sure, but still not confident of getting a result. We need a Wales team with only one or two injuries max IMO (our lack of depth is well documented). If we're picking 2nd choice or chucking in players with niggles then we're unlikely to succeed. It's just too tall an order. And looking at the injury list I just don't feel we've got enough fit, in form men to do the job, especially away from home and especially against England. Sorry boys!