England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

M Brown (Harlequins); A Watson (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), G Parling (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), J Haskell (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens).

WALES

Liam Williams (Scarlets); G North (Northampton), S Williams (Scarlets), J Roberts (Harlequins), H Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons); D Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), S Baldwin (Ospreys), T Francis (Exeter), B Davies (Wasps), A-W Jones (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

Replacements: K Owens (Scarlets), A Jarvis (Ospreys), S Lee (Scarlets), L Charteris (Racing 92), J Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Priestland (Bath), A Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues).

Said Wales would win by 2 all week, gutted I got it wrong!

Notch wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I bet Australia wish they remembered about the 4 try BP against Fiji - they could go out because of it!

Australia are backing themselves to win every game. Besides- Wales still have to play Fiji. Magnificent from Wales today but those last two fixtures look much harder if they don't get some players back. It'll not be easy to rack the BP up against Fiji with a seriously depleted back line.

At least they still have the spine of their team together; the front row, Alun Wyn-Jones, Sam Warburton and Biggar.

Won't be easy winning every game though - if they miss out by 1 point they'll look very foolish!

I'm half way through Lancasters book , I don't want to read it anymore .

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

nathan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One of the strangest and daftest calls I have ever seen in the modern game. Robshaw deserves the captaincy stripped from him.

What were they expecting, another Japan scenario? Japan had nothing to lose, and everything to gain with a win. Even if they had lost, they would have gained the respect of everyone watching for almost pulling off the inevitable. England could have equalised and they were in a far better position to win against Australia and get through the group than Wales, given the injuries.

Shocking decision, absolute madness. I actually cannot fathom that decision.

"Could" have, hindsight is a wonderful thing... It was kick from the touch line to draw.

Are you seriously trying to justify that decision? It was absolutely moronic beyond belief, and clearly Robshaw cannot handle the pressure of these high intensity games.

Do you seriously think that going for a line-out was a better decision than going for a shot at goal with your 100% kicker to equalise? Think about the variables that could go wrong when kicking for a line-out. You don't have to think too hard; you saw what went wrong tonight!

England had nothing to lose from getting a draw. They have a BP against Fiji, which Australia didn't manage to get, and they have home advantage against Australia while Wales are in a neutral venue and have injury problems.

A draw would be disappointing after leading for so long, but not a disaster. This was a bit of a disaster.

Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Duty281 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Bringing Ford on for Burgess made absolutely no sense and guess what Jamie Roberts found himself in space for the first time in the game thereafter, gambling on the Welsh injuries was a pathetic decision from SL.

Lancaster loves his pre-meditated substitutions.

Was ridiculous, as predicted Burgess was both smashing through and pushing back Roberts, why take the whole pivot of your gameplan off in the crucial last 15 minutes. He sure has well wasn't tired, Union is a frickin' cakewalk compared to League, Lancaster has now overtaken Johnson as my most despised England coach.

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

yappysnap wrote:Too many stupid penalties!

Too lazy in the second half!

And too much kicking!


Frak sake

Complacency, has no-one been listening to Alex Ferguson all week?

did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Espee66 wrote:Seriously though with no disrespect to Wales , how does a team in such a dominant position Frak it up so badly ?
Stupid stupid stupid .

"From the shell-shocked England players trudging out of the dressing-room post-match like zombies, to the thousands of stunned fans who streamed away from Twickenham in silence, the question was the same.

How the hell did that happen?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7224633.stm

Fordyce will love it, never happier than when slating his own side.

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out. funny how it goes. real guts shown by them.

You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

nathan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The difference was Wales having enough trust in their kicker to nail the difficult three points, rather than stupidly risking a line-out.

I can't fathom that decision by Robshaw. Ludicrous.

Brilliant by Wales, though, to be clinical when their chance arrived, and to punish England for every silly error.

I don't actually think it was a ludicrous decision, I want England to play positive rugby. They didn't lose the match in that moment, they lost it game in the whole second half

This.

I know that decision will be picked up on and used to beat Robshaw all tournament.

But it was the indiscipline that cost us. That and the silly mid field plus Wigglesworth not scoring a try without a single defender in front of him.

TightHEAD wrote:did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Can't see it... Never given the impression of being a bottler.

England dominated the first 30 minutes only, after that the teams pretty much cancelled each other out for the rest of the game, the difference is Wales kept going for the entire 80.

TightHEAD wrote:did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Then he doesn't deserve to play for England at this level. I don't see why he would be the one to bottle it though, he seems to be a very confident player and he had a 100% kicking success rate tonight.

Robshaw in his post match interview said he "talked with the Kickers" whatever that means

trebellbobaggins wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I bet Australia wish they remembered about the 4 try BP against Fiji - they could go out because of it!

it's them and wales going through.  this eng side are poor.

I wouldn't say England are poor. They've learnt a big lesson tonight though and I can see them doing the Ozzies and us getting stuffed again.

Notch wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I bet Australia wish they remembered about the 4 try BP against Fiji - they could go out because of it!

Australia are backing themselves to win every game. Besides- Wales still have to play Fiji. Magnificent from Wales today but those last two fixtures look much harder if they don't get some players back. It'll not be easy to rack the BP up against Fiji with a seriously depleted back line.

At least they still have the spine of their team together; the front row, Alun Wyn-Jones, Sam Warburton and Biggar.

Exactly. Fiji with nothing left to play for but pride will either be sh*t or sh*t hot. We can't take them lightly, especially with scrum issues and players dropping like flies. I'm hoping the knocks aren't serious, plus we finally get some rest after the Fiji game.

What's the rules on calling players up at this stage? We'll need to call up another fly-half to cover full-back...

TightHEAD wrote:You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

He came off and Jamie Roberts literally got the ball for 3 carries pretty much straight away - if you're going to go with a tactic surely you do so for 80 minutes, not 60?

And if you're taking off one of the centres take off the useless Barritt, who again was nowhere to be seen all night

JURASSIC PARK

At this rate we could see Tipuric at centre sooner than expected!

yappysnap wrote:

nathan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The difference was Wales having enough trust in their kicker to nail the difficult three points, rather than stupidly risking a line-out.

I can't fathom that decision by Robshaw. Ludicrous.

Brilliant by Wales, though, to be clinical when their chance arrived, and to punish England for every silly error.

I don't actually think it was a ludicrous decision, I want England to play positive rugby. They didn't lose the match in that moment, they lost it game in the whole second half

This.

I know that decision will be picked up on and used to beat Robshaw all tournament.

But it was the indiscipline that cost us. That and the silly mid field plus Wigglesworth not scoring a try without a single defender in front of him.

Of course they didn't lose the game at that moment, but they had a chance to equalise and rebuild from there. How does making stupid decisions equal positive rugby? That is totally bizarre.

I still can't get over Wigglesworth getting the ball a few metres from the try line with no defenders and kicking it away.

I mean.

What. The. Frak!

ME-109 wrote:Robshaw in his post match interview said he "talked with the Kickers" whatever that means

Then maybe he needs to assert himself more as the leader, instead of passing the buck onto the more inexperienced members of the team.

milkyboy wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Can't see it... Never given the impression of being a bottler.

Then why wasn't he in Robshaws face grabbing the ball to take the kick?

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

nathan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The difference was Wales having enough trust in their kicker to nail the difficult three points, rather than stupidly risking a line-out.

I can't fathom that decision by Robshaw. Ludicrous.

Brilliant by Wales, though, to be clinical when their chance arrived, and to punish England for every silly error.

I don't actually think it was a ludicrous decision, I want England to play positive rugby. They didn't lose the match in that moment, they lost it game in the whole second half

This.

I know that decision will be picked up on and used to beat Robshaw all tournament.

But it was the indiscipline that cost us. That and the silly mid field plus Wigglesworth not scoring a try without a single defender in front of him.

Of course they didn't lose the game at that moment, but they had a chance to equalise and rebuild from there. How does making stupid decisions equal positive rugby? That is totally bizarre.

I was going to try and defend it, but you know what? That really was a stupid Frak decision!!!!

Olly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

He came off and Jamie Roberts literally got the ball for 3 carries pretty much straight away - if you're going to go with a tactic surely you do so for 80 minutes, not 60?

And if you're taking off one of the centres take off the useless Barritt, who again was nowhere to be seen all night

Roberts barely carried because the Welsh knew he was getting knocked back every time, take Burgess off and suddenly Gatlandball starts to work again, I cannot get over how bad a decision that was.

Barritt did what he was there to do, tackled everything running down his channel and carried well.

That's me done, far too angry and cross.

Might consider a career change on Monday and take up rugby coaching/director of rugby role as I couldn't do any worse than that shower SL!

Very very interesting that Dan Biggar and Gareth Davies were instrumental in Wales win. Halfpenny and Webb who?

yappysnap wrote:I still can't get over Wigglesworth getting the ball a few metres from the try line with no defenders and kicking it away.

I mean.

What. The. Frak!

I know I am biased, but did we lose all tempo when BYoungs limped off?

In the end you have to say that, Launchbury aside, the bench replacements were s step down on the guys they replaced.

We completely switched off when we should have been putting any fightback out of sight. We seriousley Frak up in the last 25 minutes - however such a commendable and brave comeback by Wales. God knows who they can pick for the Fiji game.

TightHEAD wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Can't see it... Never given the impression of being a bottler.

Then why wasn't he in Robshaws face grabbing the ball to take the kick?

Because it's not his decision?

If he was offered it and turned it down, he should never play for his country again. It was a missable kick... Less pressure than an easier one.  I'd be surprised if he choked it, but happy to be proved wrong.

Want is a very powerful word, this morning one team wanted it more than the other.

I have been critical of Gatty's call to only take two hookers, and his decision that injuries were more likely in other positions, well you got that one right Warren.

A great contest.

How many pundits get it wrong? this game was in the bag, well done Wales but Fiji could be a problem for Wales. England still have a good chance but the must beat Aust.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Olly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

He came off and Jamie Roberts literally got the ball for 3 carries pretty much straight away - if you're going to go with a tactic surely you do so for 80 minutes, not 60?

And if you're taking off one of the centres take off the useless Barritt, who again was nowhere to be seen all night

Roberts barely carried because the Welsh knew he was getting knocked back every time, take Burgess off and suddenly Gatlandball starts to work again, I cannot get over how bad a decision that was.

Barritt did what he was there to do, tackled everything running down his channel and carried well.

Wales did crab a lot in the first half and went nowhere much. When was Burgess subbed?

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I still can't get over Wigglesworth getting the ball a few metres from the try line with no defenders and kicking it away.

I mean.

What. The. Frak!

I know I am biased, but did we lose all tempo when BYoungs limped off?

In the end you have to say that, Launchbury aside, the bench replacements were s step down on the guys they replaced.

We completely switched off when we should have been putting any fightback out of sight. We seriousley Frak up in the last 25 minutes - however such a commendable and brave comeback by Wales. God knows who they can pick for the Fiji game.

Undoubtedly lost momentum without Youngsters, Wiggles was Frak awful, although SL did say Youngs was injured. Bench added absolutely nothing, would never have thought it before hand but Burgess should not have come off, he was playing a big part in controlling their midfield

Once Farrell went to 12 he was charging out of the line like a rhino, that's ultimately what led to their try

Need to calm down before offering any real analysis, just too Frak angry atm

milkyboy wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:did Owen Farrell bottle the kick? Hence why we went for the corner?

Can't see it... Never given the impression of being a bottler.

Then why wasn't he in Robshaws face grabbing the ball to take the kick?

Because it's not his decision?

If he was offered it and turned it down, he should never play for his country again. It was a missable kick... Less pressure than an easier one.  I'd be surprised if he choked it, but happy to be proved wrong.

Farrell isn't turning a kick down ever and it's a bit insulting to him to suggest he would, it's yet another absurd call from captain fantastic; Webber on the bench instead of George was another absurd call. I can't comprehend the decision making all round really, Brooks is more a tighthead then loosehead but at that stage of the game seemed a better margin call than Vunipola, it's the same replacements at the same stage of the game every time though.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Olly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

He came off and Jamie Roberts literally got the ball for 3 carries pretty much straight away - if you're going to go with a tactic surely you do so for 80 minutes, not 60?

And if you're taking off one of the centres take off the useless Barritt, who again was nowhere to be seen all night

Roberts barely carried because the Welsh knew he was getting knocked back every time, take Burgess off and suddenly Gatlandball starts to work again, I cannot get over how bad a decision that was.

Barritt did what he was there to do, tackled everything running down his channel and carried well.

Wales did crab a lot in the first half and went nowhere much. When was Burgess subbed?

He went off for Ford, just before the Wales try I reckon

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I still can't get over Wigglesworth getting the ball a few metres from the try line with no defenders and kicking it away.

I mean.

What. The. Frak!

I know I am biased, but did we lose all tempo when BYoungs limped off?

In the end you have to say that, Launchbury aside, the bench replacements were s step down on the guys they replaced.

We completely switched off when we should have been putting any fightback out of sight. We seriousley Frak up in the last 25 minutes - however such a commendable and brave comeback by Wales. God knows who they can pick for the Fiji game.

He came on and straight away started box kinking to their back three, who then for the first time in the game started looking dangerous.

Youngs had his best game in a long time, was he injured? I can't help but think Care would have been a lot better

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Olly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:You have to say Burgess was holding it together,

He came off and Jamie Roberts literally got the ball for 3 carries pretty much straight away - if you're going to go with a tactic surely you do so for 80 minutes, not 60?

And if you're taking off one of the centres take off the useless Barritt, who again was nowhere to be seen all night

Roberts barely carried because the Welsh knew he was getting knocked back every time, take Burgess off and suddenly Gatlandball starts to work again, I cannot get over how bad a decision that was.

Barritt did what he was there to do, tackled everything running down his channel and carried well.

Wales did crab a lot in the first half and went nowhere much. When was Burgess subbed?

About 2 minutes before the Wales try, Farrell suddenly believed he was Burgess charging the line and leaving Watson in no mans land.

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Terk?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Didn't they just run into him? Rather then kick?

Aussies have a chance to all but knock us out of our own world cup next week. Eek

Shifty wrote:England dominated the first 30 minutes only, after that the teams pretty much cancelled each other out for the rest of the game, the difference is Wales kept going for the entire 80.

This. I was quite astounded with the English commentary on here by the end of the first half, but less astounded by it after 80 minutes...

Strange game compared to the recent performances. Set piece went well, loose didn't. Both youngs boys played well. Words I never thought I'd say. Never thought England were dominating but with the set piece ball we were getting it was disappointing we didn't do more with it. We tried to sit on a lead rather than extend it and gifted silly penalties. 

But there's always two sides to it, Wales turned the screw. Can't say they didn't deserve it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Bringing Ford on for Burgess made absolutely no sense and guess what Jamie Roberts found himself in space for the first time in the game thereafter, gambling on the Welsh injuries was a pathetic decision from SL.

Lancaster loves his pre-meditated substitutions.

Was ridiculous, as predicted Burgess was both smashing through and pushing back Roberts, why take the whole pivot of your gameplan off in the crucial last 15 minutes. He sure has well wasn't tired, Union is a frickin' cakewalk compared to League, Lancaster has now overtaken Johnson as my most despised England coach.

Having played both league and union u can tell you that statement is balls. Union is way more tiring than league and much more technical

yappysnap wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Didn't they just run into him? Rather then kick?

No definitely a kick, but no where near the ball and caught Liam in the side of his head. Can't believe the ref did not even look at it! Would have expected a card to at least reverse the penalty.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Agreed, also the last England penalty converted was a clean turn over by Warburton and everybody could see Biggar had not knocked on except the ref.