England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

M Brown (Harlequins); A Watson (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), G Parling (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), J Haskell (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens).

WALES

Liam Williams (Scarlets); G North (Northampton), S Williams (Scarlets), J Roberts (Harlequins), H Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons); D Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), S Baldwin (Ospreys), T Francis (Exeter), B Davies (Wasps), A-W Jones (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

Replacements: K Owens (Scarlets), A Jarvis (Ospreys), S Lee (Scarlets), L Charteris (Racing 92), J Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Priestland (Bath), A Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues).

Having played both myself I can tell you that statement is not balls at all, I found 80 minutes of Union a lot easier than 80 minutes of League.

Seagultaf wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Didn't they just run into him? Rather then kick?

No definitely a kick, but no where near the ball and caught Liam in the side of his head. Can't believe the ref did not even look at it!

So they kicked him in the head on purpose?

Well done Wales. Fully deserved the victory.

1. The midfield choices had nothing to do with the loss. Ironically, after burgess was removed the game swung.
2. Going for corner didn't 'lose' the game. Conceding the try did. Further, kicking for the corner from such a tight angle wasn't the issue. Failing to defend successful lineout was.
3. Finally, it was ill discipline that lost the game.

The big questions are:

1. Having lost so many players, and with a short turn around, can Wales beat Fiji and Aus?
2. Can an England side that shows such poor game management get through the group or further?

Wales so seem the unluckiest side for injuries.

yappysnap wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Didn't they just run into him? Rather then kick?

No definitely a kick, but no where near the ball and caught Liam in the side of his head. Can't believe the ref did not even look at it!

So they kicked him in the head on purpose?

Carelessly. Recklessly. Dangerously. Deserved a red card.

Olly wrote:Aussies have a chance to all but knock us out of our own world cup next week. Eek

and the end of Lancaster.

mckay1402 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Bringing Ford on for Burgess made absolutely no sense and guess what Jamie Roberts found himself in space for the first time in the game thereafter, gambling on the Welsh injuries was a pathetic decision from SL.

Lancaster loves his pre-meditated substitutions.

Was ridiculous, as predicted Burgess was both smashing through and pushing back Roberts, why take the whole pivot of your gameplan off in the crucial last 15 minutes. He sure has well wasn't tired, Union is a frickin' cakewalk compared to League, Lancaster has now overtaken Johnson as my most despised England coach.

Having played both league and union u can tell you that statement is balls.  Union is way more tiring than league and much more technical

One area where League is more technical, is the decision making process you use when deciding whether to "take the Points" when you are awarded a penalty, three minutes from full time, hard on attack, and a couple of points down.

According to SL. Ben youngs was injured, tom youngs had cramp, Billy v was crocked... Didn't mention burgess!

Gareth Thomas pinned the try... And the match... on barritt, making a 'terrible decision'.

The fact it's Australia makes me a lot more confident of progressing, if our scrum works as well as it did today for 60 minutes then unlike the Welsh they will crumble under the pressure.

glamorganalun wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Agreed, also the last England penalty converted was a clean turn over by Warburton and everybody could see Biggar had not knocked on except the ref.

Agree.

Everyone could see Biggar hadn't knocked on with the aid of the replay, in real time however it looked a clear knock on.

Don't fool yourself with stereotypes about how Australia can't scrum. Mario Ledesma is their scrum coach and he has their pack doing very well.

Very surprised at that result. England looked the full package to me and I thought they'd get to the final. They still might do but losing to a depleted Wales doesn't look good.

The choice to kick to touch is one of the craziest decisions I've seen. The stick of missing a kick for the posts wouldn't be anywhere near the same level as Robshaw will get for going to touch. Heard Lancaster on the radio implying that he wasn't happy with it either. Oh and Burgess coming off won Wales the game. That and a genius try and a halfway penalty.

Amazing game.

mikey_dragon wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

whocares wrote:Quick question : how bad are the Welsh injuries?

Looked very very bad, WC probably over for all of them...

but they are through and the hosts out.  funny how it goes.  real guts shown by them.

Looks grim for all three, Scot and Halam knee and shoulder, Liam Williams clearly concussed from a kick in the head, why did the ref not look at that?

Was a wild kick in the head from white 6 - nowhere near the ball. Should have seen red. Should definitely be cited. Also England LH driving diagonally across scrums repeatedly. We have a word in Wales for people like that ....

Agreed, also the last England penalty converted was a clean turn over by Warburton and everybody could see Biggar had not knocked on except the ref.

Agree.

At first i thought Warburton's challenge was ok but on the replay not sure, could be seen as an assistant tackler so needed to release the player.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The fact it's Australia makes me a lot more confident of progressing, if our scrum works as well as it did today for 60 minutes then unlike the Welsh they will crumble under the pressure.

Everyone's p*ssed at the moment, but we can beat the Aussies at home, even with this team. Emphasis on can not will. It was always going to be a tight group... And that will be another close game.

What a fantastic day in Twickenham followed by a great result

Well played England. I didn't think we would beat you until the whistle blew

Just got in.

What a win, thought they were dead and buried at one point,

If Wales had lost, I would be distraught right now as I don't think we can beat Aus with a backline made of anyone who has ever played rugby in Wales.

Lloyd Williams kick leading to the try was glorious. For all I have criticised him in the past, he has been fantastic this season, and surprisingly has spend a lot of time filling in on the wing before. When he is old and grey Lloyd and G.Davies will be able to watch that one back and smile

milkyboy wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The fact it's Australia makes me a lot more confident of progressing, if our scrum works as well as it did today for 60 minutes then unlike the Welsh they will crumble under the pressure.

Everyone's p*ssed at the moment, but we can beat the Aussies at home, even with this team. Emphasis on can not will. It was always going to be a tight group... And that will be another close game.

Some may say their scrum has improved but until they do it against us in a world cup game it doesn't mean a lot, that bonus points against both Fiji and Wales could be big.

I hope Wales don't have this ref again. A good win but at a cost, Gatland has to pull in Hook and possibly Pratchell?

Think it's more likely England will do a job vs Australia now. They absolutely NEED to win, and they'll feel they let themselves down today.

Well done MM. Your boys did you proud. England blew it/your boys took it.

England's game management was again found wanting so doesn't bode to well for them.

With the injuries and quick turn round, how confident are you of them beating Fiji and Aus?

glamorganalun wrote:I hope Wales don't have this ref again. A good win but at a cost, Gatland has to pull in Hook and possibly Pratchell?

God know who is next in line.

Hook is I think the only capped centre left standing (bar Gavin Evans, but we won't mention him). Beck is out injured with the Ospreys as well.

In the backline, we don't have any wingers left, but there are a couple of flyhalf/fullbacks in Patchell and Anscombe.

Will we bring in 3 utility flyhalves? I think even Tom James is still out injured.

Could get a bit squeezed at the top if England beat Australia, and Australia beat Wales!

But of course, Wales will need to get past a dogged Fiji side first.

Best contest I've seen in years. Apart from Biggar and a moment of magic from Wales to conjure a try for Gareth Davies I thought England played the better rugby. Always going to be close but in the end Wales had done enough to stay in it and just came away with it in the end.

I've seen better rugby but that has to be one of the best wins I have had in 30 odd years of watching Welsh rugby. Da iawn bechgyn! Hynod o falch!

wales606 wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:I hope Wales don't have this ref again. A good win but at a cost, Gatland has to pull in Hook and possibly Pratchell?

God know who is next in line.

Hook is I think the only capped centre left standing (bar Gavin Evans, but we won't mention him). Beck is out injured with the Ospreys as well.

In the backline, we don't have any wingers left, but there are a couple of flyhalf/fullbacks in Patchell and Anscombe.

Will we bring in 3 utility flyhalves? I think even Tom James is still out injured.

Ben John has looked good any time i have seen him play with the O's.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Everyone could see Biggar hadn't knocked on with the aid of the replay, in real time however it looked a clear knock on.

No it didn't. It never looked like knock on.

We can get 5 points versus Fiji, we just need to keep in tight and play in their half. We can get to them around the breakdown, set piece and driving lineouts. Confidence in Wales will be very high after tonight's win and that is a big factor as it has been in the past. There were some people on here doubt him but I knew Biggar would step up and he did Wales proud!

Reality check Wales need a bonus point win versus Fiji and at least a losing bonus point
versus Australia at home.Australia needs a bonus point win versus Uruguay a win against
either England or Wales plus a losing bonus point minimum.
England need to beat Australia plus a bonus point win versus Uruguay then its down to
points difference this really is a group of death.

mckay1402 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Everyone could see Biggar hadn't knocked on with the aid of the replay, in real time however it looked a clear knock on.

No it didn't.  It never looked like knock on.  

Come on mate you couldn't be certain of that in real time. Further to what we were discussing, I don't get why Cuthbert was penalised near the end either? Every tackler holds the player to the ground, pauses and rolls away; he did just that. Wales looked a bit bewildered with that one but it is a rarity that we actually get on with a French ref.

One thing I'd like to mention. The kick for Wales try could not have been more perfect. Great play from lloyd

mckay1402 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Everyone could see Biggar hadn't knocked on with the aid of the replay, in real time however it looked a clear knock on.

No it didn't.  It never looked like knock on.  

Even the missus asked why the ref blew the whistle, and that was before Biggar remonstrated with the ref, and the replays were shown....and she was 10,000 miles away.

OMFG..... How good was that!. Jeeze every welsh player (fit or injured), all coaches and every welsh fan should stand up and be so damn proud!!

Didn't see that coming.

Well done Wales, played smart rugby for 80 mins. Bigger played a beaut.

England have it all to blame. Penalties were ridonk. Lawes gave away 3 penalties in first 10 mins. England score, give away a pen, score, give away a pen. It was like reading a script before watching a movie.

Robshaw again had a brainfade.... once acceptable, but he's becoming known for it, its madness... They had what 1/7 chance of scoring off a lineout?

Wales simply played smart rugby for 80 mins, almost waiting on England to screw up. Well done to them. Warburton played v. well. Discipline in defence was huge also.
Ford coming on disrupted the balance, not potentially himself but the backline. It was a bad move by lancaster.

Thought Lydiate was v.lucky not to get binned for wood's tackle but to be honest Garces had a TMO to check so he thought it was fair.

Feel sorry for Lancaster in a way.... his tactics sort of worked but it wasn't that that let down England. Robshaw has to take a lot of blame, the leadership of him and senior players was very poor, they conceded penalties so soon after scoring that they kept Wales in the game. It was needless.

However if England do end up going out in pools, you really have to question his appointment, Robshaw's captaincy the lot.

Really opens up Pool A. England have to climb Everest. Not sure if they can beat AUS but if they do, my word they make the pool interesting. If teams go out due to putting out 100% then fair dues, if teams go out because they constantly keep on repeating same stupid errors its a discipline/selection issue.

AUS will be the happiest of the 3. Big injuries to Wales, England look like they're pressing the self destruct button.

Bet Gatland has a smile which lasts from here to 2017. Whatever the case, his appointment as lions coach 2017 is near guaranteed.

Wales problem with Fiji will be part forced replacements but part recovery time, especially following a physical struggle and mentally draining game like that.

mikey_dragon wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Everyone could see Biggar hadn't knocked on with the aid of the replay, in real time however it looked a clear knock on.

No it didn't.  It never looked like knock on.  

Come on mate you couldn't be certain of that in real time. Further to what we were discussing, I don't get why Cuthbert was penalised near the end either? Every tackler holds the player to the ground, pauses and rolls away; he did just that. Wales looked a bit bewildered with that one but it is a rarity that we actually get on with a French ref.

It never even occurred to me that it was a knock on. I could see it never touched through ground

Will we see Henson?

fa0019 wrote:Didn't see that coming.

Well done Wales, played smart rugby for 80 mins. Bigger played a beaut.

England have it all to blame. Penalties were ridonk. Lawes gave away 3 penalties in first 10 mins. England score, give away a pen, score, give away a pen. It was like reading a script before watching a movie.

Robshaw again had a brainfade.... once acceptable, but he's becoming known for it, its madness... They had what 1/7 chance of scoring off a lineout?

Wales simply played smart rugby for 80 mins, almost waiting on England to screw up. Well done to them. Warburton played v. well. Discipline in defence was huge also.
Ford coming on disrupted the balance, not potentially himself but the backline. It was a bad move by lancaster.

Thought Lydiate was v.lucky not to get binned for wood's tackle but to be honest Garces had a TMO to check so he thought it was fair.

Feel sorry for Lancaster in a way.... his tactics sort of worked but it wasn't that that let down England. Robshaw has to take a lot of blame, the leadership of him and senior players was very poor, they conceded penalties so soon after scoring that they kept Wales in the game. It was needless.

However if England do end up going out in pools, you really have to question his appointment, Robshaw's captaincy the lot.

Really opens up Pool A. England have to climb Everest. Not sure if they can beat AUS but if they do, my word they make the pool interesting. If teams go out due to putting out 100% then fair dues, if teams go out because they constantly keep on repeating same stupid errors its a discipline/selection issue.

AUS will be the happiest of the 3. Big injuries to Wales, England look like they're pressing the self destruct button.

Bet Gatland has a smile which lasts from here to 2017. Whatever the case, his appointment as lions coach 2017 is near guaranteed.

I think the Irish may disagree with you there.

I was surprised at how England seemed to run out of steam in the last 20

fa0019 wrote:

Bet Gatland has a smile which lasts from here to 2017. Whatever the case, his appointment as lions coach 2017 is near guaranteed.

Stop trying to wind people up .

emack2 wrote:Reality check Wales need a bonus point win versus Fiji and at least a losing bonus point
versus Australia at home.Australia needs a bonus point win versus Uruguay a win against
either England or Wales plus a losing bonus point minimum.
England need to beat Australia plus a bonus point win versus Uruguay then its down to
points difference this really is a group of death.

Equal points to Wales and England go out. Equal points first showdown is head to head.

Can England beat AUS after that? Yes and no.... AUS are RC champs beat NZ, beat SA. They have a strong front 5 all of a sudden and play 2 opensides. Good lineout, a bit weak in scrum but England aren't exactly smashing it.

Where is the weakness England can exploit?

If England beat AUS (prob 40/60 now) then if Wales can simply get a bonus point vs Fiji or AUS then they will qualify. They will know what they have to do... England will get their bonus point vs. Uruguay, thats a given. Big diff, knowing what you need to do and simply praying for someone to screw up.
But how to beat AUS? Joseph crocked, Barritt playing like a U14 newbie. Burrell, what a call.

Brown had a good game but he was a little spikey more than once could Watson did well to keep him out of trouble picking on forwards. At least he puts in 100%.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Bet Gatland has a smile which lasts from here to 2017. Whatever the case, his appointment as lions coach 2017 is near guaranteed.

Stop trying to wind people up .

It was legacy vs. legacy though mikey. Whoever won would almost certainly survive, the other would fall.

glamorganalun wrote:Brown had a good game but he was a little spikey more than once could Watson did well to keep him out of trouble picking on forwards. At least he puts in 100%.

There is 100% and being a d*** though. Its needless.

Ref saw it, gave pen and reviewed, why bother? Picked on Warburton who is literally the most passive guy in rugby.

Always think its questionable to pass off being unable to control emotions and putting out 100%... could have easily got a card there.

I agree with your comments but:

'if Wales can simply get a bonus point vs Fiji'

Given a fresh Aus couldn't get one, it's highly possible a deleted, tired Wales may not.

fa0019 wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:Brown had a good game but he was a little spikey more than once could Watson did well to keep him out of trouble picking on forwards. At least he puts in 100%.

There is 100% and being a d*** though. Its needless.

Ref saw it, gave pen and reviewed, why bother? Picked on Warburton who is literally the most passive guy in rugby.

Always think its questionable to pass off being unable to control emotions and putting out 100%... could have easily got a card there.

Brown is probably my least favourite England player after tonight. There was a misunderstanding, hence Wales not getting penalised, and the forwards had an exchange of views. But then Brown comes running over acting like a tough guy and hanging onto Warburton's neck, only for our captain to turn around and march him backwards - at that moment I thought Brown looked as if he was going to cry. Such an irritating little character. If he wants to play the hardman running in from 15 I would suggest he learn from JPR and Liam Williams.

Brown has always had the needle, always had a screw loose when provoked. But hell, why didn't the captain or senior player simply march him. Afterwards they let him keep on going?

It was a bad tackle, thought Lydiate should have gone to the bin but the ref had called a pen and a review so why the beef? More likely he was lucky it wasn't reversed.

There are moments you can lose justify losing it, that was not one of them.

Brown's anger was understandable when Lydiate made no effort to use his arms in the tackle, how he avoided a yellow card only Garces will know.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:how he avoided a yellow card only Garces will know.

Because the ref deemed it an acceptable tackle within the rules maybe???

It was an acceptable hard tackle from Lydiate, well within the rules, if you can't take it go and watch touch rugby instead.

If Lydiate made the tackle why was he so angry at Warburton? Besides at this point Garces was yet to take another look at it and make a decision, so surely it wasn't his decision Brown was angry at. And why is Brown trying to push around lads much bigger than him... He seems the type of guy who has a glass jaw, not exactly who you'd want in the middle of brawl .

I don't see how using your shoulder and nothing else is acceptable, seemed to fool everyone by flailing his arm around afterwards.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Brown's anger was understandable when Lydiate made no effort to use his arms in the tackle, how he avoided a yellow card only Garces will know.

He wasn't carded because he did go in with his arms - player was attempting to jump out of the tackle. It was messy not foul play. Brown was a silly boy who should have had his bottom kicked.