England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

George Carlin wrote:And a typically Wumtastic offering from Rattue in the NZ Herald (so please don't shoot the messenger):

Chris Rattue: England's arrogance their undoing
5:35 PM Sunday Sep 27, 2015
Arrogance. That has to be what sent England to a humiliating Rugby World Cup loss against a magnificent Welsh side who should have limped off Twickenham in defeat.

England's decision to turn down a late shot at goal for a draw was among the most staggering things I have seen in top sport. It defied belief. Desperate to claim the world crown on home soil, England tossed common sense out the window and gambled their prospects on a captain's whim. A team that is supposedly prepared to within an inch of its life, interactive goalkicking aids and all, had a melt down. They simply couldn't face the prospect of a draw with Wales.

The Pool of Death -- where every point may count -- has come alive, and Australia are the winners on this result. They have a brilliant record against Wales, who are so knocked about by injuries that their odds of winning the World Cup might even go down after this victory. England are behind the eight ball in what many describe as the toughest World Cup pool in history.

Fortress Twickenham has had its doors kicked down. England are a laughing stock thanks to captain Chris Robshaw's astounding late call.

What an amazing game at Twickenham, even though it wasn't very good at times. Outstanding goal kickers are wonderful to watch, but only in doses more moderate than this. Yet just as the big Pool A game was heading towards the casualty ward, the Welsh stretcher bearers came on and the game took off.

There's nothing like a wounded underdog clawing their way back into a contest to get the heart racing, and European crowds know how to create an atmosphere. And Wales really were out for the count, down on the scoreboard and in fit troops.

When it comes to injuries, they are already the world champs. They really do seem jinxed. Their squad went into the game depleted, and got hammered further still. Even their coach Warren Gatland managed to break both ankles, falling from a ladder in New Zealand a couple of years ago.

But they showed the sort of spirit that has always been essential to rugby success. A game of such loose structures has been bashed over the head by the laptop army, but rolling up the sleeves, digging deep as they say, still counts for a lot.

The glory moment was provided by Lloyd Williams, normally a halfback who was forced on to the wing, scampering up the left hand touchline and placing a centreing kick for the winning try. It's not the sort of move that is rigorously planned on a training field. Those impromptu things come from desperation, and the heart.

And what was England's response? They couldn't face drawing with an old enemy who was threatening to rain lightly on their parade. They turned down a simple penalty for the draw even though this was the mandatory thing to do. It was also a mark of disrespect to the Welsh pack, who easily defended Robshaw's meek lineout move. England paid the full price. For arrogance.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:My thoughts on the game.

I was surprised England didn't make more use of their scrum advantage, a few more knock ons in Wales' redzone would have meant points.

On attack although England look busy and industrious they looked ponderous at the same time.

I said to a mate before the match I think putting Burgess at 12 and Barret at 13 was a mistake.

I understand why because Burgess looked lost at 13 in the warm ip matches.

Wales showed incredible guts to come back into this match with so many injuries, England were stunned in the last quarter, I think they thought the game was won, and in a moment Wales took control.

Why England didn't take the three pointer during a world cup pool match surprised me, some would say you need the win, but in this pool two points would have put them in a better position than just 1 and considering Wales would have gotten 2 instead of four it makes a big impact on how England will have to play the rest of their pool matches.

Kudos to Wales, that was an impressive win, guts, pasion, attitude and determination.

Agreed. Knowing Wales cannot beat Australia going down the line rather than for goal was a strange call IMO.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:On England's decision to kick for the corner: on the replays they showed on the highlights show last night, it looked like it was George Ford's call and Robshaw nodded along with it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Cully in the Sydney Morning Herald:

Taulupe Faletau was simply a giant. This World Cup is bringing out something special from No.8s, and the Welshman was as good as any in Wales' win. It's easy for a No.8 to look good when his tight five is dominating, but Faletau was magnificent even when the opposite was happening. His ability to carve out the hard yards was central to the Welsh comeback in the second half, even from the back of struggling scrums.

And when England kicked ahead after the Welsh knocked on in attack in the 62nd minute, Faletau was one of three Welsh chasers who prevented English winger Anthony Watson from collecting the ball after a lung-busting 60-metre chase. Dan Biggar won man of the match, but I suspect the players will give their own award to Faletau.

He rarely gets plaudits. He deserves so many more.

Biggar was man of the match for me by a long shot. To take on the kicking role and deliver so well under such pressure was exactly how I thought he would play. Great player.

englandglory4ever wrote:"Taking off of Burgess was a bad mistake, probably a bigger one than Robshaw's."

Absolutely agree. Taking Burgess and Billy V off was a huge error by the coaches.

beshocked wrote:DaveM sorry if you think we have the most potent back three then you must live in cloud cuckoo land. Watson couldn't even outpace Faletau!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Throwing the ball to the most easily defend part of the lineout was an absolutely STUPID decision. If Parling made that call, then Mr. Anonymous should be dropped. Not to say he shouldn't be dropped anyway after yesterdays performance.

One other thing I noticed; the Welsh line out was consistently not straight, I cannot remember one all going down the channel as the jumper was taking the ball directly above his head. England seemed to be taking it down the middle, most of the time anyway.

englandglory4ever wrote:"The "biggest" mistake was SL changing a winning formular going into this game.  He should have stuck with the team that gave him momentum and replaced Joseph with the excellent Slade. "

The game started and England did OK going up by 10 clear points. What SL did in the last 20 minutes of the match was wrong. Not what he ate for breakfast last week or anything else irrelevant to the match that was actually played last night.

DaveM wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

DaveM wrote:As for Wales, it's a shame that after such a gutsy performance the injuries have surely ended any chance of them actually winning the tournament.

Gatland and co will do absolutely everything in their power to try to prove that truism wrong.  I think we can all agree on that.  As the man says, he's best under pressure.  And through his whole career he's proven it often enough to be true.

Wales will be exposed at some point now, whatever Gatland does. When you run out of players, you run out of players. If they'd had better luck with injuries they might actually have won it.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

One other thing I noticed; the Welsh line out was consistently not straight, I cannot remember one all going down the channel as the jumper was taking the ball directly above his head. England seemed to be taking it down the middle, most of the time anyway.

EnglishReign wrote:Strange game! Maybe alcohol played a part but it felt like we were more than a score in front when Wales went over, I was quite indifferent about it until I saw it put them in front! Absolutely gutted, there isn't a worse team to lose to (banter wise!). Still, well done to Wales, it looked like you wanted it more. Simple as that.

DaveM wrote:  Owen Williams from the Blues could also be a potential option.  

Shifty wrote:

DaveM wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

DaveM wrote:As for Wales, it's a shame that after such a gutsy performance the injuries have surely ended any chance of them actually winning the tournament.

Gatland and co will do absolutely everything in their power to try to prove that truism wrong.  I think we can all agree on that.  As the man says, he's best under pressure.  And through his whole career he's proven it often enough to be true.

Wales will be exposed at some point now, whatever Gatland does. When you run out of players, you run out of players. If they'd had better luck with injuries they might actually have won it.

Wales are having all their injuries in the backs though, it's injuries in the forwards that always prove Wales undoing, the truth is Wales can still cope with these kinds of injuries in the backs because we have the depth.  We can't replace Dan Biggar, Jamie Roberts, Alun Wyn Jones, and Toby Faletau, we don't have like for like with Jones and Roberts because of the role they play in the team, but everyone else we can manage without.  We still have James Hook, Gareth Anscombe and Jack Dixon so there's no reason to panic.  Personally I'd love to see Jordan Williams given a chance.  Though Dan Evans was great last season for the Ospreys.  Tom Prydie could be another option from the Dragons.  Owen Williams from the Blues could also be a potential option.  Even Harry Robinson or Steve Shingler might be outside choices if needed.    

Truth is if Harry Robinson or Steve Shingler were Scottish they'd probably be first choices.  Although Wales are suffering a shocking amount of injuries we do have players to replace them, and their pretty good ones too.  

wales606 wrote:If it's reckless or deliberate, I can't see Wood being involved in the rest of this world cup if the citing commissioner is paying attention.

https://vine.co/v/exweQzegeOW

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Looked like a very clear attempt to play the ball and nothing more.

wales606 wrote:If it's reckless or deliberate, I can't see Wood being involved in the rest of this world cup if the citing commissioner is paying attention.

https://vine.co/v/exweQzegeOW

Shifty wrote:

DaveM wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

DaveM wrote:As for Wales, it's a shame that after such a gutsy performance the injuries have surely ended any chance of them actually winning the tournament.

Gatland and co will do absolutely everything in their power to try to prove that truism wrong.  I think we can all agree on that.  As the man says, he's best under pressure.  And through his whole career he's proven it often enough to be true.

Wales will be exposed at some point now, whatever Gatland does. When you run out of players, you run out of players. If they'd had better luck with injuries they might actually have won it.

Wales are having all their injuries in the backs though, it's injuries in the forwards that always prove Wales undoing, the truth is Wales can still cope with these kinds of injuries in the backs because we have the depth.  We can't replace Dan Biggar, Jamie Roberts, Alun Wyn Jones, and Toby Faletau, we don't have like for like with Jones and Roberts because of the role they play in the team, but everyone else we can manage without.  We still have James Hook, Gareth Anscombe and Jack Dixon so there's no reason to panic.  Personally I'd love to see Jordan Williams given a chance.  Though Dan Evans was great last season for the Ospreys.  Tom Prydie could be another option from the Dragons.  Owen Williams from the Blues could also be a potential option.  Even Harry Robinson or Steve Shingler might be outside choices if needed.    

Truth is if Harry Robinson or Steve Shingler were Scottish they'd probably be first choices.  Although Wales are suffering a shocking amount of injuries we do have players to replace them, and their pretty good ones too.  

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:"Taking off of Burgess was a bad mistake, probably a bigger one than Robshaw's."

Absolutely agree. Taking Burgess and Billy V off was a huge error by the coaches.

i

 The "biggest" mistake was SL changing a winning formular going into this game.  He should have stuck with the team that gave him momentum and replaced Joseph with the excellent Slade.  

He played into Wales hand and had he been more ambitious England would have been further ahead going into the final quarter.   SL lost that game because he moved away from the formular that has worked well for the team for the last two years.  That and a dumb decision from the captain. Tricky what to do about that, as England don't have a single player with captain credentials who is absolutely guaranteed his place.

Seagultaf wrote:unfortunately most of the players you have listed are actually injured!

As another poster mentioned Owen Williams was tragically injured a year ago. Dixon and Harry Robinson are long term injuries. Shingled and Jorden recovering from major injuries and are yet to play for the Scarlets this season. Anscombe is also removing from a minor injury but may be close to fitness. I would go with Dan Evans to cover Liam and Prydie to cover Amos. Centre is more of a problem, Ben John maybe? Hopefully Hook will only come into the equation if Gats is looking for a bench player who can cover a number of positions (but none of them well).

Risca Rev wrote:Shocked Shifty didn't know about Owen Williams though.

mikey_dragon wrote:Apart from Dixon and Anscombe, none of those players should be anywhere near the team. Lay off the brains beer.

PS Owen Williams retired due to injury, or is this some other Owen Williams that I haven't heard of that you're touting for honours?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That is not a red card offence at all, slow motion makes it look worse and shouldn't be used to gauge an opinion, in real time he clearly goes for the ball and nothing else.

eirebilly wrote:

wales606 wrote:If it's reckless or deliberate, I can't see Wood being involved in the rest of this world cup if the citing commissioner is paying attention.

https://vine.co/v/exweQzegeOW

Does not make for good viewing does it. Would be surprised if he is not cited.

milkyboy wrote:For all the Lancaster this, selection that, there hasn't been much to choose between Wales, England and Ireland these last few years (Ireland's better discipline prob the differentiator if there is one).  As usual in big games between fairly even matched teams it comes down to moments of brilliance, luck or mistakes. It's the same every time, but we analyse the sh*t out of it regardless. Win you're heroes, lose you're muppets irrespective of whether that comes down to a kindly bounce of the ball or a referee's 50:50 call. 

Fans always know best... there's always someone who should have played that would have made all the difference. Tactics to blame etc. Most seem to think England had the better of the game... Maybe the tactics/selection worked.

There might be a reason why watching him in training everyday they didnt want to risk slade. Maybe it's inexperience....  Maybe they just didn't think he was right for this game. Maybe he plays him, he has a shocker, and Lancaster gets mullerred for chucking him in at the deepend in a key game. 

When was tthe last time England playing a Southern Hemisphere team at home was not a competitive game. If they play well they can beat Australia, if Australia play well they can beat England. The idea that because we lost to Wales we can't beat Australia is typical over-reaction.

mikey_dragon wrote:Apparently Williams' head injury isn't bad. I've took blows like that and played on. Probably not a good idea back then, but if I was alright then Williams' should be. Just to be safe I would leave him out of the Fiji game, or put him on the bench in case we get another injured winger/centre convert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Apparently Williams' head injury isn't bad. I've took blows like that and played on. Probably not a good idea back then, but if I was alright then Williams' should be. Just to be safe I would leave him out of the Fiji game, or put him on the bench in case we get another injured winger/centre convert.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

wales606 wrote:If it's reckless or deliberate, I can't see Wood being involved in the rest of this world cup if the citing commissioner is paying attention.

https://vine.co/v/exweQzegeOW

Does not make for good viewing does it. Would be surprised if he is not cited.

He's clearly going for a bouncing ball and accidentally catches the Welsh boy with the shin. If that constitutes reckless play a red and a citing Lydiate will be banned until Christmas with his torpedo shoulder tackle. As it is a contact sport they'll be both playing next week.