England v Wales - Part 2, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

M Brown (Harlequins); A Watson (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), G Parling (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), J Haskell (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens).

WALES

Liam Williams (Scarlets); G North (Northampton), S Williams (Scarlets), J Roberts (Harlequins), H Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons); D Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), S Baldwin (Ospreys), T Francis (Exeter), B Davies (Wasps), A-W Jones (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

Replacements: K Owens (Scarlets), A Jarvis (Ospreys), S Lee (Scarlets), L Charteris (Racing 92), J Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), R Priestland (Bath), A Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues).

I thought Lydiate's tackle was fine. From memory it looked like the England player jumped into it. Unnecessary from Brown considering the tackle was a-ok. Brown's a pretty good player in the air and when running with the ball but he is a bit of a goose.

Well - that was an epic game that truly lived up to its billing!

I have to admit I have no idea how Wales pulled off a win there. They looked the second best team for 60 minutes and that's not to mention that list of injuries!

Somehow they found a way to win. First exploiting some very anxious and disorganised defending and taking their one chance with both hands.

The goal kicking was also spectacular - from both teams.

In the end CR had a total brain fart - and not the first - possibly some arrogance under pressure, maybe inspired by the Japanese a week ago he went for glory - and well, it didn't come off did it? If they'd pushed over for the win he'd be lauded as a hero, but as it is he looks like he lost the plot.

A brave, brave and pragmatic effort by the Welsh boys who've really put the cat into the pigeons in the Pool of Death.

Wales almost certain to progress now - and England, it has to be said, hampered by some diabolically foolhardy selections will now be against the wall to even progress in their own world cup.

It seemed as tho Lydiate dived low as the England guy jumped to avoid the tackle

GavinDragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Didn't see that coming.

Well done Wales, played smart rugby for 80 mins. Bigger played a beaut.

England have it all to blame. Penalties were ridonk. Lawes gave away 3 penalties in first 10 mins. England score, give away a pen, score, give away a pen. It was like reading a script before watching a movie.

Robshaw again had a brainfade.... once acceptable, but he's becoming known for it, its madness... They had what 1/7 chance of scoring off a lineout?

Wales simply played smart rugby for 80 mins, almost waiting on England to screw up. Well done to them. Warburton played v. well. Discipline in defence was huge also.
Ford coming on disrupted the balance, not potentially himself but the backline. It was a bad move by lancaster.

Thought Lydiate was v.lucky not to get binned for wood's tackle but to be honest Garces had a TMO to check so he thought it was fair.

Feel sorry for Lancaster in a way.... his tactics sort of worked but it wasn't that that let down England. Robshaw has to take a lot of blame, the leadership of him and senior players was very poor, they conceded penalties so soon after scoring that they kept Wales in the game. It was needless.

However if England do end up going out in pools, you really have to question his appointment, Robshaw's captaincy the lot.

Really opens up Pool A. England have to climb Everest. Not sure if they can beat AUS but if they do, my word they make the pool interesting. If teams go out due to putting out 100% then fair dues, if teams go out because they constantly keep on repeating same stupid errors its a discipline/selection issue.

AUS will be the happiest of the 3. Big injuries to Wales, England look like they're pressing the self destruct button.

Bet Gatland has a smile which lasts from here to 2017. Whatever the case, his appointment as lions coach 2017 is near guaranteed.

I think the Irish may disagree with you there.

I was surprised at how England seemed to run out of steam in the last 20

Gatland and schmidt seem to be good mates. Sure verb Cotter would get on with them too..

It would be nice to see all three involved

VinceWLB wrote:It was an acceptable hard tackle from Lydiate, well within the rules, if you can't take it go and watch touch rugby instead.

It was a penalty. There was no wrap around, wood went legs over head. If you can't see how that's dangerous then hell, why not simply accept shoulder charges, no wrap around's, multiple concussions and life expectancy of lower than sub saharan africans for pro rugby players.

Ref had a look at it, he deemed it not a yellow. I give him that but when a player commits a pen over a dangerous tackle, and the player goes legs over head... for me that's a yellow.

With regard to the tackle - I think it was fine. The tackler went low and used both arms. If anything, the England player jumped to avoid him and it was his own momentum that propelled him into the air.

fa0019 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It was an acceptable hard tackle from Lydiate, well within the rules, if you can't take it go and watch touch rugby instead.

It was a penalty. There was no wrap around, wood went legs over head. If you can't see how that's dangerous then hell, why not simply accept shoulder charges, no wrap around's, multiple concussions and life expectancy of lower than sub saharan africans for pro rugby players.

Ref had a look at it, he deemed it not a yellow. I give him that but when a player commits a pen over a dangerous tackle, and the player goes legs over head... for me that's a yellow.

Looked like wood tried to jump the tackle.

No one in our part of the stand could understand how England got the put in at the preceding scrum. Wood dropped the ball in the tackle.

Brown is narky...can see why people don't like him. Should have been a penalty though... He had his right arm out but took him out with his left shoulder and made no attempt to use his arms. 

Wales did alright in the penalty count for a ref they don't like. I thought garces was alright, a few strange calls both ways... Aren't there always.

fa0019 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It was an acceptable hard tackle from Lydiate, well within the rules, if you can't take it go and watch touch rugby instead.

It was a penalty. There was no wrap around, wood went legs over head. If you can't see how that's dangerous then hell, why not simply accept shoulder charges, no wrap around's, multiple concussions and life expectancy of lower than sub saharan africans for pro rugby players.

Ref had a look at it, he deemed it not a yellow. I give him that but when a player commits a pen over a dangerous tackle, and the player goes legs over head... for me that's a yellow.

That's pretty myopic. Wood was jumping, Lydiate was commited, arm was coming around. Messy tackle nothing worse.

Wood's reckless kick ito Liam Williams' head was worth a red card however. Much, much worse. Citing I reckon.

Wales showed real grit to win that match. It was a great try.


That match was probably the best goal kicking display I've seen in a long time. Both Farrell and Biggar nailed every kick and Farrell even got a drop goal.

So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

Well done Wales, amazing win given the injuries.

Critical error from Brad Barritt. Not only does he offer nothing in attack as a 13 (or a 12), either by running with the ball or releasing the outside backs, but his much vaunted defence let him down. In my view he should never play for England again.

Farrell and Burgess both played well. And unsurprisingly it turns out the English scrum isn't that bad.

England lost the game for two reasons:

- May and Watson were wasted
- England were unable to compete at the breakdown in the second half without being penalised. I don't know if this is an issue with Rowntree's coaching, or whether England have just got into bad habits of reaching beyond the ball first, but it has to stop quickly.

I reckon we may have seen the last of Billy V in this tournament (which is a shame as he played well). I guess Easter will be waiting for a phone call.

Next week the three matchday centres have to be Slade, Burgess and Joseph, If so England still have enough to get out of the group, as long as they can avoid too many breakdown penalties.

The arm wasn't coming around at all, he should have been binned for what was a blatant shoulder charge whereas Wood made a clear attempt at the ball, only a complete tool would think otherwise.

Would say Australia`s weakest area is the Lineout if Simmons is injured there in trouble
also IF one of there Hookers is injured also dodgy.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It was an acceptable hard tackle from Lydiate, well within the rules, if you can't take it go and watch touch rugby instead.

It was a penalty. There was no wrap around, wood went legs over head. If you can't see how that's dangerous then hell, why not simply accept shoulder charges, no wrap around's, multiple concussions and life expectancy of lower than sub saharan africans for pro rugby players.

Ref had a look at it, he deemed it not a yellow. I give him that but when a player commits a pen over a dangerous tackle, and the player goes legs over head... for me that's a yellow.

That's pretty myopic. Wood was jumping, Lydiate was commited, arm was coming around. Messy tackle nothing worse.

Wood's reckless kick ito Liam Williams' head was worth a red card however. Much, much worse. Citing I reckon.

I agree, I think there will be citing a for Wood and Browns punch on Warburton in the first half

Steffan wrote:So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

"They don't like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring!"

maestegmafia wrote:
Gatland and schmidt seem to be good mates. Sure verb Cotter would get on with them too..

It would be nice to see all three involved

That trio would make for a very intriguing series in NZ.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The arm wasn't coming around at all, he should have been binned for what was a blatant shoulder charge whereas Wood made a clear attempt at the ball, only a complete tool would think otherwise.

Want some lemon to go with that bitterness sweetheart?

England appeared to bottle it to me. A good old fashioned world cup choke. England had a 10 point advantage and Wales already beset by injuries had an improvised back line after further crucial in-game injuries. Wales were a mess in the set piece and that should be where the game is won and lost.

England needed simply to play for territory and possession. As the game wore on, however, they lacked game management. You have to blame Owen Farrell for that. There was too much aimless kicking and too much indiscipline.

It is illegal to jump to avaoid a tackle so Wales should have had the penalty.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The arm wasn't coming around at all, he should have been binned for what was a blatant shoulder charge whereas Wood made a clear attempt at the ball, only a complete tool would think otherwise.

If there's a citing for Wood, then surely Lydiate will too? Unless the commissioner is a tool of course.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The arm wasn't coming around at all, he should have been binned for what was a blatant shoulder charge whereas Wood made a clear attempt at the ball, only a complete tool would think otherwise.

Umm, yes it was. Was clear in the replay that it was ... and reckless use of the boot around a player's head is a sending off offence. Only a complete tool doesn't understand that.

The arm was coming round, but had no chance of wrapping. Effectively he shoulder-charged Wood's leg. However, I actually think it is actually a grey area as to whether that was a penalty or not because his arm was coming around.

Weird penalty given against Watson when he kicked through. The commentators all thought it was for a late tackle, but it wasn't. Watson was penalised for going to ground, but not only was he just beaten to the ball by a player who also 'went off his feet' but Watson actually ended up sliding past him and so didn't impede him in any way. Not crucial though.

At the core of it, I have to suggest a finger of blame points in the direction of Stuart Lancaster. His random rotation policy in general has led to an unsettled team who lack cohesion and confidence. The Welsh try came as a direct result of players not trusting each other and their systems. His sudden wholesale change of the team for a crucial qualification game beggars belief.

Why did England get the scrum and then penalty when Wood lost the ball forward from Lydiate's tackle, another 3 points they should not of had.

Goode on the bench was also no help, as why would you bring off one of the back 3 for him? It was obviously pointless having a specialist fullback on the bench, and so it proved.

Steffan wrote:So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

Nah steff. If you read the thread, no English fans are complaining about the ref... It's the Welsh fans.  Some are struggling to just be happy with the win.

This tackle is only being mentioned because of the scuffle. If he didn't give the penalty the scrum should have gone to Wales though.

England certainly panicked as Wales were forcing their way back into it. History tells us that when that happens in this fixture England give away lots of penalties. It didn't go quite as I had hoped but I was confident that the forwards could punch their way throw and Biggar slot over the points. I thought the backs defence was pretty woeful, Australia would have been watching and loving that.

I'm surprised Lydiate's tackle wasn't given as a penalty, and a yellow, since the referees have been clamping down hard and harsh on that sort of thing at this tournament.

No complaints at the officials not giving it, though.

Duty281 wrote:I'm surprised Lydiate's tackle wasn't given as a penalty, and a yellow, since the referees have been clamping down hard and harsh on that sort of thing at this tournament.

No complaints at the officials not giving it, though.

England lost though either way. Not quite the 10 point+ victory you predicted...

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englandglory4ever...

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'm surprised Lydiate's tackle wasn't given as a penalty, and a yellow, since the referees have been clamping down hard and harsh on that sort of thing at this tournament.

No complaints at the officials not giving it, though.

England lost though either way. Not quite the 10 point+ victory you predicted...

Indeed. The expectations from myself, and the bookmakers, have been confounded.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The arm wasn't coming around at all, he should have been binned for what was a blatant shoulder charge whereas Wood made a clear attempt at the ball, only a complete tool would think otherwise.

If there's a citing for Wood, then surely Lydiate will too? Unless the commissioner is a tool of course.

Lydiate did nothing wrong, tried to tackle Wood tried to jump him.

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'm surprised Lydiate's tackle wasn't given as a penalty, and a yellow, since the referees have been clamping down hard and harsh on that sort of thing at this tournament.

No complaints at the officials not giving it, though.

England lost though either way. Not quite the 10 point+ victory you predicted...

Indeed. The expectations from myself, and the bookmakers, have been confounded.

Gonna have to pick yourselves up for the Aussies now. Its a game we can afford to lose. Not looking forward to Fija mind with all our injuries

milkyboy wrote:

Steffan wrote:So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

Nah steff. If you read the thread, no English fans are complaining about the ref... It's the Welsh fans.  Some are struggling to just be happy with the win.

This tackle is only being mentioned because of the scuffle. If he didn't give the penalty the scrum should have gone to Wales though.

Well HH seems to have a problem with the officials.

I thought the ref was ok. A few 50/50's I disagreed with but I'm not the guy in the middle eh? I thought he got a lot of scrums wrong. I could clearly see england's LH driving diagonally accross the scrum repeatedly. He was even being congratulated for it by his team mates. Not singling Garces out for this. Refs are generally rubbish at dealing with scrum offences IMHO. Wood's reckless kick was missed too. You don't launch a boot in when someone's head is in the way. I don't think it was premeditated. It was exeptionally dangerous though.

donglewood wrote:At the core of it, I have to suggest a finger of blame points in the direction of Stuart Lancaster. His random rotation policy in general has led to an unsettled team who lack cohesion and confidence. The Welsh try came as a direct result of players not trusting each other and their systems. His sudden wholesale change of the team for a crucial qualification game beggars belief.

Yup, I'd agree with that Dongle. Some teams are making substitutions resulting in a drop in skills, structure and confidence. Question is, why aren't these subs making a positive difference or at least not resulting in the wheels falling off?  It has to be a culture thing, game week preparation thing or is it a poor 4-year planning thing?

Given the recent history between these two teams who would make such a bold prediction in such a big game... That's why I kept quiet, but like I said, was quietly confident .

maestegmafia wrote:" />

Looks like good news, will not miss Amos, hope he is OK. We will miss Scott Williams he was on good form.

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'm surprised Lydiate's tackle wasn't given as a penalty, and a yellow, since the referees have been clamping down hard and harsh on that sort of thing at this tournament.

No complaints at the officials not giving it, though.

England lost though either way. Not quite the 10 point+ victory you predicted...

Indeed. The expectations from myself, and the bookmakers, have been confounded.

Gonna have to pick yourselves up for the Aussies now. Its a game we can afford to lose. Not looking forward to Fija mind with all our injuries

Fiji? Wales will be fine. They've lost two out of two and are mentally done. Careful about the Australia game, though - a loss there, and Wales could still exit the competition.

mikey_dragon wrote:englandglory4ever...

As Sam Burgess said "Who..?"

glamorganalun wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:" />

Looks like good news, will not miss Amos, hope he is OK. We will miss Scott Williams he was on good form.

Not sure whether the rumours on the Ospreys site that walker was making a good recovery are true or not but he would be worth a shot if he is

Not sure you can assume Fiji won't be up for it just because they've lost to England and Australia so far ... if they could beat Wales and Uruguay 2 out of 4 would be a good result for them.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Steffan wrote: So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

Nah steff. If you read the thread, no English fans are complaining about the ref... It's the Welsh fans.  Some are struggling to just be happy with the win.

This tackle is only being mentioned because of the scuffle. If he didn't give the penalty the scrum should have gone to Wales though.

Well HH seems to have a problem with the officials.

I thought the ref was ok. A few 50/50's I disagreed with but I'm not the guy in the middle eh? I thought he got a lot of scrums wrong. I could clearly see england's LH driving diagonally accross the scrum repeatedly. He was even being congratulated for it by his team mates. Not singling Garces out for this. Refs are generally rubbish at dealing with scrum offences IMHO. Wood's reckless kick was missed too. You don't launch a boot in when someone's head is in the way. I don't think it was premeditated. It was exeptionally dangerous though.

I guess you'd like steve Walsh reffing all your games against England;)

It's the one big downside of rugby as a game. Too many games are decided by a particular ref's interpretation. ... Or won by the team that adapts to those interpretations better. Maybe England's biggest weakness is not adapting to ref's as well as other teams. Wrong side of the penalty count too often.

No excuses today. Wales rode the storm, finished stronger, deserved the win.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Steffan wrote:So...I'm assuming...'Dan Lydiate and referee cheat England out of the game'...is the angle we are approaching here???

Nah steff. If you read the thread, no English fans are complaining about the ref... It's the Welsh fans.  Some are struggling to just be happy with the win.

This tackle is only being mentioned because of the scuffle. If he didn't give the penalty the scrum should have gone to Wales though.

Well HH seems to have a problem with the officials.

I thought the ref was ok. A few 50/50's I disagreed with but I'm not the guy in the middle eh? I thought he got a lot of scrums wrong. I could clearly see england's LH driving diagonally accross the scrum repeatedly. He was even being congratulated for it by his team mates. Not singling Garces out for this. Refs are generally rubbish at dealing with scrum offences IMHO. Wood's reckless kick was missed too. You don't launch a boot in when someone's head is in the way. I don't think it was premeditated. It was exeptionally dangerous though.

England are a top scrummaging team but what annoyed me was that it seemed like Garces had made his mind up on the scrums long before the game. Poite on the sideline probably had a hand in his preparations...

Credit to Davies to for picking up that ball for the try with his finger tips. We've seen many a try fluffed in situations like that. That's an execution of skills and concentration under fatigue so good on him.

glamorganalun wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:" />

Looks like good news, will not miss Amos, hope he is OK. We will miss Scott Williams he was on good form.

i hope so.

It would be nice to see a replay of the incident. And maybe a replay of the aftermath of the Lydiate tackle on Tom Wood.

From the stand we saw Mike brown run in and punch Sam Warburton in the side of the head but there was no replay on the screens and we were surprised to that the ref didn't pick it up.

England lacked discipline, gave too many penalties away. Then Wales improved towards the end.

I think the refereeing protocol for scrums is two penalties to the team going forward ('well why would you cheat when you're going forward') followed by one for the team going back ('ah maybe you're only going back because they're cheating'). 

I think garces more or less followed protocol.

Out of interest, with the Welsh centre crisis, what's Gavin Henson up to these days? Could lead to the most glorious and perhaps most unpopular comeback film of all time. In fact it smacks of a brilliant comedy, a young star chases money, reality TV fame and boozy plane trips and end up a World Cup winner with a last minute penalty. Certainly beats fishing in Waikato.