Stuart Lancaster & the England Job

by **George Carlin** Sun 27 Sep 2015, 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Stuart Lancaster & the England Job - Page 7 Stuart10

Stuart Lancaster & the England Job - Page 7 Englan12

I think that this aspect of the fallout from last night's titanic match deserves a thread of its own.

As a neutral, I am probably the person to start it as I have no truck with England's current head coach either way.

Some numbers first. The figures for Lancaster are only correct to the end of the 6N this year, so that's worth bearing in mind:

Geoff Cooke
Tenure: 16 January 1988 – 19 March 1994
Tests: 50
Won: 36
Drawn: 1
Lost: 13
Win Percentage: 72

Jack Rowell
Tenure: 4 June 1994 – 12 July 1997
Tests: 29
Won: 21
Drawn: 0
Lost: 8
Win Percentage: 72

Sir Clive Woodward
Tenure: 15 November 1997 – 2 September 2004
Tests: 83
Won: 59
Drawn: 2
Lost: 22
Win Percentage: 71

Andy Robinson
Tenure: 15 October 2004 – 29 November 2006
Tests: 22
Won: 9
Drawn: 0
Lost: 13
Win Percentage: 41

Brian Ashton
Tenure: 20 December 2006 – 1 June 2008
Tests: 22
Won: 12
Drawn: 0
Lost: 10
Win Percentage: 55

Rob Andrew
Tenure: 1 June 2008 – 30 June 2008
Tests: 2
Won: 0
Drawn: 0
Lost: 2
Win Percentage: 0

Martin Johnson
Tenure: 1 July 2008 – 16 November 2011
Tests: 38
Won: 21
Drawn: 1
Lost: 16
Win Percentage: 55

Stuart Lancaster
Tenure: 8 December 2011 – present
Tests: 42
Won: 26
Drawn: 1
Lost: 15
Win Percentage: 62

SL was in charge of his first game in March 2012.

Many regard England's failure to beat Wales as attributable directly to the head coach's tactical decisions in selection and to the apparent lack of a clear and consistent game plan which England is playing to.

My questions for the group:

1. What results are needed in this Rugby World Cup for Lancaster to keep his job? Would he still have to go if England exit in the quarters?

2. With reference to his peers above, what win ratio is expected from an England coach and is this reasonable?

3. What are the key areas in which Lancaster can be validly criticised?

4. The RFU is the most profitable union in the sport. Apart from perhaps the NZ head coach's job, there is a fair argument that being England's head coach is the most prestigious coaching appointment in rugby union football. But is it in fact something of a poisoned chalice given the overwhelming expectation to constantly be successful?

by **George Carlin** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:23 pm

We seem to be agonising a lot about players having to match their club positions or playing there internationally is impossible. Australia has shown that if you're a talented enough footballer you can adapt, even at international level.

In the last few games, Henry Speight and Kurtley Beale played at centre and done just fine, with the likes of JOC (not even selected for this tournament, more's the irony), Gitau, AAC, Tomua and Kuridrani each able to cover a large number of backline positions.

Slade is cut from the same cloth in terms of a complete skillset and I think that if you tried him at 12 for an entire 6 Nations, by the time the next year's competition rolled around you would be unable to see anyone else in that position.

Joseph cannot do it all by himself. To me Barritt is without a doubt part of the problem. You cannot have a centre so one dimensional. Not these days

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:29 pm

Have just read that SL; will leave his post after the Uraguay game next week.

Ian Ritchie said their would not be a (Knee jerk reaction.) Surely making him leave( if ) this is the case, a Knee Jerk reaction. and what about the rest of the coaches? are they stepping down after the next game?

I know he says the book stops with him....but he also says the it was a collective decision ( all the coaches together) So one out all out.

by R!skysports Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:33 pm

I really think that the main issue seems to be the influence of Farrell Snr (and maybe the SL not standing up to him) - the selection in the last 2 matches smacked of his influence

I still have no idea the rational of playing a style of game around Ford for a year (Which was working) then changing the whole lot in such a fashion

It makes zero sense to me

by fa0019 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:40 pm

This whole oh poor lancaster, Farrell is the real nasty coach... the league man who is pulling the strings is complete garbage.

Sorry but if the head coach is being bullied by another coach then he doesn't have the sort of personality which is required in a leader. If you cannot stand up to someone even if you outrank them then the problem is with you... not your assistant/employee etc overstepping the mark.

by R!skysports Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:57 pm

fa0019 wrote:This whole oh poor lancaster, Farrell is the real nasty coach... the league man who is pulling the strings is complete garbage.

Sorry but if the head coach is being bullied by another coach then he doesn't have the sort of personality which is required in a leader. If you cannot stand up to someone even if you outrank them then the problem is with you... not your assistant/employee etc overstepping the mark.

It was not to say poor Lancaster - it was to highlight I think he is not strong enough and a poor coach because of that

It also is to point out I think that Farrell may be the brains behind a lot of the selections - and as such - should go too - as it obviously does not work

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:00 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Have just read that SL; will leave his post after the Uraguay game next week.

Ian Ritchie said their would not be a (Knee jerk reaction.) Surely making him leave( if ) this is the case, a Knee Jerk reaction. and what about the rest of the coaches? are they stepping down after the next game?

I know he says the book stops with him....but he also says the it was a collective decision ( all the coaches together) So one out all out.

I think that no matter what the RFU do or say, Lancaster was going to step down himself. I think he will be more disappointed than any one, but I think that he would consider it too much of a failure and that he needs to go for the best of the team. He may not have passed muster as a coach but I don't think anyone doubts that he is a good man.

by TJ Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:04 pm

Lancaster is an honourable man thus he has to step down. I am surprised he did not go immediately

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:08 pm

TJ wrote:Lancaster is an honourable man thus he has to step down. I am surprised he did not go immediately

Still got Uruguay. I would expect him to step down after that.

Could have announced that before hand I guess and maybe he will.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:10 pm

Will he give the squad players a game.

Slade, Nowell David Wilson, Care etc?

by **George Carlin** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:17 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will he give the squad players a game.

Slade, Nowell David Wilson, Care etc?

Very interesting question Geordie.

If he still hopes to hold onto his job, I cannot see why he would do that. You're going to hammer them anyway. It's Uruguay.

If you pick the team that everyone said you should choose in the first place, then when you stuff the brave opposition, your opponents will claim that this is proof your selections were wrong in the first place.

by RubyGuby Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:28 pm

The attendance and crowd reaction will be interesting. Good opportunity to get behind the players after the game. Its been the toughest week of their careers and they're hurting more than anyone.

thumbsup

by lostinwales Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will he give the squad players a game.

Slade, Nowell David Wilson, Care etc?

Sounds like Wilson has been out of sorts. I would hope that they choose a team with squad players but ones who are capable of putting on a show, as we have sod all else to do

by SecretFly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:06 pm

I feel for Lancaster, really do. A nice man who has had the bottom fall out of his universe in a Nation so alive to signs of weakness. Not saying the Nation is wrong in demanding a degree of success from handsomely paid coaches. But simply sad for the person in the spotlight this time.

I hated too those shots of him leaving a building and walking into a car park with the person who will be his Executioner when the time comes by his side. He looked hollow. Had I been him I'd have suggested to Ian Ritchie that they leave the building separately, each on their own.

by Welly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:18 pm

Come on England get Rennie.

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:19 pm

If you look back at the England coaches, there as really not been a winning coach since 2003 and Sir Clive Woodward.

And yet it has been pointed out many a time that England have the biggest pool of players to chose from.... and yet no one can get them to gell in big competions, 6ns, RWC.

So when a new coach takes over does he have free rain over selection? or is his hand's tied behind his back?

What will the next coach be saying after a dismal 6ns. We are a growing side, we need time to grow as a team/squad.

I don't like too say this but England are starting to become a laughing stock, going from 3rd place down to 8th and could drop even further if we are not lucky.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:21 pm

Ah the biggest pool of players thing again.

My 6 year old son registered with a club at the weekend, does he count towards this mythical number?

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:21 pm

majesticimperialman wrote: going from 3rd place down to 8th and could drop even further if we are not lucky.

Its meaningless. A few wins in the 6n and we'd bounce back to bloomin 2nd or something stupid.

I think we can have a good 6n actually. A few tweaks to the team.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:27 pm

SL should stand down and develop younger players as that is where his skills are.

A.Farrell and Rowntree should be sacked.

Catt should be retained as he has done a good job when the right players are selected, and provides experience of the failings we have just gone through to bridge the change over period with a new coach.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:30 pm

Whoever gets the job should be able to pick exactly who and what they want. Don't burden them with someone they don't rate or like.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whoever gets the job should be able to pick exactly who and what they want. Don't burden them with someone they don't rate or like.

If you do that then you are back to square one with 2 months to get ready for the 6 nations. Catt hasn't done a bad job.

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:33 pm

Riskysports wrote:I really think that the main issue seems to be the influence of Farrell Snr (and maybe the SL not standing up to him) - the selection in the last 2 matches smacked of his influence

I still have no idea the rational of playing a style of game around Ford for a year (Which was working) then changing the whole lot in such a fashion

It makes zero sense to me

riskysports Ford didn't exactly work out vs Ireland in the 6 nations. All the weaknesses found out in that game were mercilessly exploited.

Lancaster could teach a masterclass in how to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Secretfly you talk about Ian Ritchie being Lancaster's executioner. I want Ian Ritchie to fall on his sword too. He's the idiot who gave Lancaster and co long term contracts, has ripped off rugby fans all over the world in the RWC, isolated debenture holders and sold English merchandise for ridiculous amounts.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:35 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Whoever gets the job should be able to pick exactly who and what they want. Don't burden them with someone they don't rate or like.

If you do that then you are back to square one with 2 months to get ready for the 6 nations. Catt hasn't done a bad job.

I think he's done decently like you said, plenty think he's been rubbish. If the new coach wants his own men let him though.

by **rodders** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:36 pm

Is sir Clive an option?

by lostinwales Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

rodders wrote:Is sir Clive an option?

Why is Schmidt moving on? I am sure you can have Clive if you can afford him...

by SecretFly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

And who hired Ritchie?

Oh dear. Not Bill to go? I like Bill too much.

by SecretFly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:40 pm

lostinwales wrote:
rodders wrote:Is sir Clive an option?

Why is Schmidt moving on? I am sure you can have Clive if you can afford him...

According to some on these threads, we can afford anything we want. Clive would be small change, IF we wanted him. Wink

AFTER we buy out Toulon and Saracens and turn them in Offshore Provinces...

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Whoever gets the job should be able to pick exactly who and what they want. Don't burden them with someone they don't rate or like.

If you do that then you are back to square one with 2 months to get ready for the 6 nations. Catt hasn't done a bad job.

I think he's done decently like you said, plenty think he's been rubbish. If the new coach wants his own men let him though.

That goes without saying if the new guy has his own team like these football managers do, but Catt deserves the chance to stay with the senior team imo.
SL should be offered the chance to drop to a younger level as that is what he is good at and would be a shame to lose the experiences he has gained over 4 years in the top job, as for Farrell and Rowntree they have to be shown the door asap.

by Barney McGrew did it Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:43 pm

You're all ignoring the nightmare scenario - Farrell Snr asked to take the reins as caretaker, takes England to 2nd in the 6N and gets offered the job. He promptly makes Farrell Jnr his captain, and fills the team with ex-RL forwards (particularly in the backs). Then our horror is complete.

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:48 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:You're all ignoring the nightmare scenario - Farrell Snr asked to take the reins as caretaker, takes England to 2nd in the 6N and gets offered the job. He promptly makes Farrell Jnr his captain, and fills the team with ex-RL forwards (particularly in the backs). Then our horror is complete.

Barney McGrew.

Please do not make joke like that. It is not funny at all. Rolling Eyes

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:51 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:You're all ignoring the nightmare scenario - Farrell Snr asked to take the reins as caretaker, takes England to 2nd in the 6N and gets offered the job. He promptly makes Farrell Jnr his captain, and fills the team with ex-RL forwards (particularly in the backs). Then our horror is complete.

Holy moly, they may even do that first bit. Then we will play the six nations, everyone else will be burnt out from their world cup exploits, we will win a few games (just) and be stuck with him until the next world cup.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:52 pm

Maybe we should hold an x factor style competition to see who takes over.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:54 pm

I do think everyone is over looking the fact that SL has a contract until 2019.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

Means nothing if he resigns and some money if he's sacked.

by Cyril Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Means nothing if he resigns and some money if he's sacked.

That's just like my job, except for the 2nd part.

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:59 pm

If the media circus didn't exist I actually wouldn't be averse to Lancaster staying on (though I think it is probably best for him to move on - perhaps to a different role in the set up). He had no experience when he started. He does now. I would say to him and the players - "Show me that you have learned, you win the 6 nations as a minimum". It's a tough ask (Wales and Ireland, as well as France are looking good) but sod it. Spend the first half of the year looking for a replacement for if he doesn't win the 6 nations. They then have the autumn internationals and summer development tours etc. to mould the team towards their image before the 6 nations 2017. They also have plenty of time to the next world cup.

Problem with that plan is that the media DOES exist and will crucify him (and his boss) no matter what.

by little_badger Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:01 pm

I'd like to see the RFU spend a lot of money to get a world class experienced international coach, buy them out if they have to. Tell them you want them to take the team forward with a group of mostly English coaches with a succession plan later for those coaches to step up. They get to pick the coaches with the RFU that they think represent the future of England's coaching.

For example (and this is just as a demonstration it's not my choices!)

DOR: Eddie Jones
Coaches: Rob Baxter, Alex King, Steve Borthwick

by Cyril Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:01 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:If the media circus didn't exist I actually wouldn't be averse to Lancaster staying on (though I think it is probably best for him to move on - perhaps to a different role in the set up). He had no experience when he started. He does now. I would say to him and the players - "Show me that you have learned, you win the 6 nations as a minimum". It's a tough ask (Wales and Ireland, as well as France are looking good) but sod it. Spend the first half of the year looking for a replacement for if he doesn't win the 6 nations. They then have the autumn internationals and summer development tours etc. to mould the team towards their image before the 6 nations 2017. They also have plenty of time to the next world cup.

Problem with that plan is that the media DOES exist and will crucify him (and his boss) no matter what.

You could also ramp up the tension by kidnapping their families. You know, just in case the pressure during the world cup hadn't quite sunk in Wink

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:02 pm

The trouble is if he goes that would mean heads should roll higher up the chain which they won't, this is the RFU we are talking about, they will back SL and tell him to get a new coaching team to save face.

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:05 pm

Cyril wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:If the media circus didn't exist I actually wouldn't be averse to Lancaster staying on (though I think it is probably best for him to move on - perhaps to a different role in the set up). He had no experience when he started. He does now. I would say to him and the players - "Show me that you have learned, you win the 6 nations as a minimum". It's a tough ask (Wales and Ireland, as well as France are looking good) but sod it. Spend the first half of the year looking for a replacement for if he doesn't win the 6 nations. They then have the autumn internationals and summer development tours etc. to mould the team towards their image before the 6 nations 2017. They also have plenty of time to the next world cup.

Problem with that plan is that the media DOES exist and will crucify him (and his boss) no matter what.
You could also ramp up the tension by kidnapping their families. You know, just in case the pressure during the world cup hadn't quite sunk in

Meh, that's kind of the point. You know pressure now. Show you have learnt. It gives us time to find a decent replacement, OR if he wins, we clearly don't need one.

by **George Carlin** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:06 pm

Cyril wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Means nothing if he resigns and some money if he's sacked.

That's just like my job, except for the 2nd part.

by fa0019 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:12 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I do think everyone is over looking the fact that SL has a contract until 2019.

Yes but at the same time, he has delivered the worst result as England coach ever. Hardly sometime to say, "ok got this one wrong but stick with me".

SCW at least qualified albeit from an easier group (but still had to go through a playoff after losing to NZ). He had only 2 years in the job too and you could see what he was trying to achieve. His work was rather revolutionary in terms of professionalism and the RFU knew it.

He had the most time a new coach has ever had to get his team to be ready for the world cup. His unavailable list was no more worse and probably slightly better than most. He kept on saying, I'm building for the world cup yardy yardy yah.

If he has any honour he'd go. The RFU probably extended his contract in part because they didn't want it hanging over his head come the RWC., didn't want to be blamed for putting too much pressure on the coach. Failure to get out of the group is a game changer... hell its only ever happened to Scotland once too!

by Cyril Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:16 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:
Cyril wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:If the media circus didn't exist I actually wouldn't be averse to Lancaster staying on (though I think it is probably best for him to move on - perhaps to a different role in the set up). He had no experience when he started. He does now. I would say to him and the players - "Show me that you have learned, you win the 6 nations as a minimum". It's a tough ask (Wales and Ireland, as well as France are looking good) but sod it. Spend the first half of the year looking for a replacement for if he doesn't win the 6 nations. They then have the autumn internationals and summer development tours etc. to mould the team towards their image before the 6 nations 2017. They also have plenty of time to the next world cup.

Problem with that plan is that the media DOES exist and will crucify him (and his boss) no matter what.
You could also ramp up the tension by kidnapping their families. You know, just in case the pressure during the world cup hadn't quite sunk in

Meh, that's kind of the point. You know pressure now. Show you have learnt. It gives us time to find a decent replacement, OR if he wins, we clearly don't need one.

It's my point too (and obviously it was meant in jest). I think you either look at it and say it didn't work and put him out of his misery or you back him for a decent amount of time. I think one-off ultimatums (while you look for another option) doesn't help anybody and prolongs the agony. It's also insulting for a guy who has acted with a decent level of dignity (even if ultimately he probably wasn't up to the job).

by fa0019 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:19 pm

Get a new coach in. An experienced global well respected coach at the highest level with a future English coach as his no.2 (pushed to be successor). Lancaster had the same amount of time in 2012 so shouldn't worry.

Throw the cheque book at the best.

Nick Mallett wanted the job, probably fancies the job still. I reckon Dean Ryan would make a good no.2 as well. And then scour the world for a proper backs coach.

Ryan will know the players for the 6N. Coach such as Mallett can acclimatise themselves for the summer tour.

by RubyGuby Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:24 pm

Before anything happens he will need to sit down with his employers and they will ask him for his reasoning on selection and game plan. After that a decision will be made, unless of course he's had enough of the pressure. He's no doubt seeking counsel right now but I think the English public will applaud him after the Uruguay game and IMO he alone deserves that.

thumbsup

by lostinwales Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:24 pm

'Cos, you know, Dean Ryan was such a success coaching at club level I am sure the step up would be easy Doh

by RubyGuby Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:25 pm

At the moment its about the same level LIW

thumbsup

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:31 pm

fa0019 I wouldn't want either of those coaches. Neither are the best.

Mallett hasn't won anything of note as coach since he was at Stade Francais, his run with Italy was uninspiring.

Dean Ryan's coaching resume isn't very impressive.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:31 pm

He was great for Scotland.

by TightHEAD Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:33 pm

For the fun of it lets pick Austin Healy, Matt Dawson, Ben Kay and Dallaglio.

by SecretFly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:34 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Before anything happens he will need to sit down with his employers and they will ask him for his reasoning on selection and game plan. After that a decision will be made, unless of course he's had enough of the pressure. He's no doubt seeking counsel right now but I think the English public will applaud him after the Uruguay game and IMO he alone deserves that.

"T'was Farrell Sr, sir. He made me do it, if you be pardoning me, your worshipfulness, sir"

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