France v Ireland, 11 October

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FRANCE v IRELAND
11 October 2015
KO: 16:45
The Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges:Wayne Barnes (England) & Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

93 Played 93
55 Won 31
7 Drawn 7
31 Lost 55
1508 Points 1084

B. Recent Form

14 February 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
18 – 11 to Ireland

15 March 2014
Stade de France, Saint Denis
20 – 22 to Ireland

9 March 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
13 – 13 Draw

4 March 2012
Stade de France, Saint Denis
17 – 17 Draw

20 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
22 – 26 to France

13 August 2011
Stade Chaban-Delmas, Bordeaux
19 – 12 to France

C. Teams

FRANCE

15 Scott Spedding, 14 Noa Nakaitaci, 13 Mathieu Bastareaud, 12 Wesley Fofana, 11 Brice Dulin, 10 Frederic Michalak, 9 Sebastien Tillous-Borde; 1 Eddy Ben Arous, 2 Guilhem Guirado, 3 Rabah Slimani, 4 Pascal Pape, 5 Yoann Maestri, 6 Thierry Dusautoir (c), 7 Damien Chouly, 8 Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: 16 Benjamin Kayser, 17 Vincent Debaty, 18 Nicolas Mas, 19 Alexandre Flanquart, 20 Bernard Le Roux, 21 Morgan Parra, 22 Remi Tales, 23 Alexandre Dumoulin.

IRELAND

15 Rob Kearney, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Keith Earls, 12 Robbie Henshaw , 11 Dave Kearney,  10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Mike Ross, 4 Devin Toner, 5 Paul O'Connell (c), 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Sean O'Brien, 8 Jamie Heaslip.

Replacements: 16 Richardt Strauss, 17 Jack McGrath, 18 Nathan White, 19 Iain Henderson, 20 Chris Henry, 21 Eoin Reddan, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Luke Fitzgerald.

I think If we were to beat New Zealand for the first time in our history, the physical and mental drain would lead to a loss in the very next game. Best to keep them for the final.

All Blacks.... then South Africa........................ hmmmm?
Red Hot Argentina.... then Wallabies................ hmmmm?
Red Hot Argentina.... then Wales..................... hmmmm?

Red Hot Ireland (destroying France) ..... then anyone................

That'd be my preference.

Anyone know the status of Payne and Kearney?

Golden wrote:Anyone know the status of Payne and Kearney?

They're both Capricorns.

SecretFly wrote:All Blacks.... then South Africa........................ hmmmm?
Red Hot Argentina.... then Wallabies................ hmmmm?
Red Hot Argentina.... then Wales..................... hmmmm?

Red Hot Ireland (destroying France) ..... then anyone................

That'd be my preference.

This is shoite or bust time fly. We either go out on our shield in the QF or go all the way.

I'm not having this SF gumph, and SF is a just a QF with an S.

I'm with SF (and JS). Either route is going to be brutal and tough. I don't see any easy or clever option here.

Ireland need to start playing now if they're to start building up their confidence and momentum. They can't afford another poor game where they whimper out against France. And, as mentioned above, if they were somehow to go on from that defeat and take NZ in the quarter (which is playing against the odds)... then that may well be their WC right there. Coz the physical and emotional cost would be so huge. It may well be worth it if we actually did win... but it is a long shot and there would still be two even more massive games to come.

So, either way, I think its more just a matter of keeping their heads down and not trying to be clever or planning a route to the final.

They need to up their intensity and start getting things right against France. That's all I care about. I don't think anything else matters. If they do that and still lose by one score... then I think that's fair enough. And they'll still be in this tournament proper. If they do that job so well that they win by a score or more... then all the better. And that will put them in an even better position in this tournament and world rugby. But I don't think any team should be thinking about psychologically dropping their performance levels to somehow hopefully "pick NZ off early."

That would more likely just see us come home with our tails between our legs and yet another poor WC tournament.

Final or bust then Rodders?

Off the back of recent results i've tempered my expectations somewhat. At the minute what I really want to see is a performance for a change, something where it looks remotely like we can think on the fly.

Presently we look like a manifestation of Joe's will, incapable of independent thought. Players all talk about the amazing set-pieces and their faith in them, but what we want to see is the confidence to move the ball outside of a rigid structure.

I think that is what is going to be required to beat France, supplemented by the Schmidt- ball clever kicking and set-pieces.

Golden wrote:Anyone know the status of Payne and Kearney?

Ones a poor 13 and the other one is out of form 15

Oh don't start, billy! You've become a right Payne!!!!

I'll say this too. How come Matt William's arse recovered quicker than Payne's toe? Matt's made of tougher stuff than Payne, that's why. He was bang on song with his comments, Payne can't even kick hard enough.

Marshes wrote:Final or bust then Rodders?

I'd say so. Mission 1 is to qualify for the KO stages and then the aim needs to be to go all the way,

There is some scant consolation in being runners up but other than some financial benefit for the IRFU and players for lasting an extra 2 weekends, and ranking points, the difference between going out in the quarters or semis is neither here nor there.

The nonsense about making history is media spin - no one wants to play a 3/4 play off.

In terms of the age profile of the group - a lot of players won't be there in Tokyo so its not that there will be much carryover in experience, so yes it's shoite or bust from next weekend onwards whatever the result on Sunday.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:I'm with SF (and JS). Either route is going to be brutal and tough. I don't see any easy or clever option here.

Ireland need to start playing now if they're to start building up their confidence and momentum. They can't afford another poor game where they whimper out against France. And, as mentioned above, if they were somehow to go on from that defeat and take NZ in the quarter (which is playing against the odds)... then that may well be their WC right there. Coz the physical and emotional cost would be so huge. It may well be worth it if we actually did win... but it is a long shot and there would still be two even more massive games to come.

So, either way, I think its more just a matter of keeping their heads down and not trying to be clever or planning a route to the final.

They need to up their intensity and start getting things right against France. That's all I care about. I don't think anything else matters. If they do that and still lose by one score... then I think that's fair enough. And they'll still be in this tournament proper. If they do that job so well that they win by a score or more... then all the better. And that will put them in an even better position in this tournament and world rugby. But I don't think any team should be thinking about psychologically dropping their performance levels to somehow hopefully "pick NZ off early."

That would more likely just see us come home with our tails between our legs and yet another poor WC tournament.

You've put all that in the wrong context of course because you didn't read the book called:  Argumentative Principles as they relate to Dynamic Mood Shifting Patterns in Form Resilience Substrates.

But I still agree with every word.

No more bloody clouding the waters of what we may be hiding or moves we ain't using that we might use if Joe gives the go-ahead (paraphrased from Sexton this week).  Just use everything guys!  For f**K sake, it's Kitchen sink time now.  The World Cup is already over for a few teams and we're still talking about things we might do or not do when we get to it.....

SecretFly wrote:
You've put all that in the wrong context of course because you didn't read the book called:  Argumentative Principles as they relate to Dynamic Mood Shifting Patterns in Form Resilience Substrates.

All very good fly but perhaps you should add the Art of War by Sun Tzu as well, it's Joe's favorite book:-

"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak."

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable”

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:Final or bust then Rodders?

I'd say so. Mission 1 is to qualify for the KO stages and then the aim needs to be to go all the way,

There is some scant consolation in being runners up but other than some financial benefit for the IRFU and players for lasting an extra 2 weekends, and ranking points, the difference between going out in the quarters or semis is neither here nor there.

The nonsense about making history is media spin - no one wants to play a 3/4 play off.

In terms of the age profile of the group - a lot of players won't be there in Tokyo so its not that there will be much carryover in experience, so yes it's shoite or bust from next weekend onwards whatever the result on Sunday.

I think this is forcing a false choice.

1) The best way to win this tournament or any other top-level competition is precisely to stop looking around at other teams and looking for clever routes through. You start playing your own game to the highest standard you can and bring those raised confidence levels into your next game. It's not rocket science.

2) If Ireland were to somehow magically overturn NZ after (yet) another poor performance against France, then they would still be facing an uphill task to raise their game to that level or higher two more times. Look back at the teams that knocked NZ out early in previous WCs... France lost their next games with nowhere near the same performance levels and Australia lost in 2003. So beating NZ does not necessarily give you any leg up on winning the WC.

3) It most certainly would be a big deal if Ireland were to make a WC final whether or not they beat NZ (or anyone else) in that final!

Would that be a Belfast sink Fly, or is that the wrong one - Best be careful as its all in the fine detail mate and you don't want to see your team going down the plug hole.

SecretFly wrote:
You've put all that in the wrong context of course because you didn't read the book called:  Argumentative Principles as they relate to Dynamic Mood Shifting Patterns in Form Resilience Substrates.

But I still agree with every word.

I read that one... but I was basing my post on their second book: Argumentative Principles 2 - This Time its Personal

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
You've put all that in the wrong context of course because you didn't read the book called:  Argumentative Principles as they relate to Dynamic Mood Shifting Patterns in Form Resilience Substrates.

All very good fly but perhaps you should add the Art of War by Sun Tzu as well, it's Joe's favorite book:-

"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak."

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable”

Jesus, all we need is an armchair Ancient Chinese Philosopher critic trying to give his five cents on the Irish team. Don't tell me, he's replacing Keith Wood in TV3 coverage so that Matt feels he's talking with someone on his level?

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:Final or bust then Rodders?

I'd say so. Mission 1 is to qualify for the KO stages and then the aim needs to be to go all the way,

There is some scant consolation in being runners up but other than some financial benefit for the IRFU and players for lasting an extra 2 weekends, and ranking points, the difference between going out in the quarters or semis is neither here nor there.

The nonsense about making history is media spin - no one wants to play a 3/4 play off.

In terms of the age profile of the group - a lot of players won't be there in Tokyo so its not that there will be much carryover in experience, so yes it's shoite or bust from next weekend onwards whatever the result on Sunday.

I think this is forcing a false choice.  

What choice?

I'm talking about the objective once we qualify, irrespective of side of the draw, needs to be to go all the way rather than have the comfort blanket that a SF would be something to take much consolation in.

The one game at a time mantra is spot on but the suggestion that reaching a SF, given the historical significance, would be seen as a great achievement on its own needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Nothing like the Irish Psyche when there is a possibility of doing well in anything.....

In all seriousness, I believe that Ireland can beat France. I would start Payne at 13 purely for his defence against Basteraud and have Earls and Dave Kearney on the wings. I would be more tempted to have Zebo at 15 over Rob Kearney as well for his extra defensive and counter attack abilities.

ME-109 wrote:Nothing like the Irish Psyche when there is a possibility of doing well in anything..... WINNING  SOMETHING!

Enough of the wishy washy fence sitting vernacular, we are here to WIN goddamit WIN!!

rodders wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:Final or bust then Rodders?

I'd say so. Mission 1 is to qualify for the KO stages and then the aim needs to be to go all the way,

There is some scant consolation in being runners up but other than some financial benefit for the IRFU and players for lasting an extra 2 weekends, and ranking points, the difference between going out in the quarters or semis is neither here nor there.

The nonsense about making history is media spin - no one wants to play a 3/4 play off.

In terms of the age profile of the group - a lot of players won't be there in Tokyo so its not that there will be much carryover in experience, so yes it's shoite or bust from next weekend onwards whatever the result on Sunday.

I think this is forcing a false choice.  

What choice?

I'm talking about the objective once we qualify, irrespective of side of the draw, needs to be to go all the way rather than have the comfort blanket that a SF would be something to take much consolation in.

The one game at a time mantra is spot on but the suggestion that reaching a SF, given the historical significance, would be seen as a great achievement on its own needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.  

Well I was placing your comments here in the context of your earlier post int his thread saying that we might do better to lose this game.

But, even beyond that, I don't agree with your final or bust attitude either. Not at all. You seem to have got it backwards (for me at least). The idea that you can take nothing from any competition unless you win it IS media hype nonsense. I would have thought that only people who have little or no interest in rugby (and I know you are about as passionate as they come Rodders!) would think like that.

If Ireland can play confident expressive and brave rugby and turn over France or NZ while doing it... then I think that will be a fantastic achievement. If they can get to a semi while playing like that and then somehow lose out in a brave and top-level semi-final performance... then I won't be bitching and moaning about not winning. I'll be proud that we finally performed at the top stage and did ourselves justice. There's no shame in losing to another top side once you start to play your best. If they get to a final and lose in a tight well-fought battle I'll be over the moon and disappointed at the same time.

May sound like guff to some of ye... but I feel strongly about that.

When you play your best, you give yourself a chance.
If you try to pace or hold back for later rounds at this point, you might not get to those later rounds and you'll go down looking shyte too.  
So the story of Ireland in that scenario could be 'Failed and looked absolute rubbish doing so'.
Not something I'd look forward to.

The time is now that we have to play as best as we can in all future games.  We have to trust to our supposed squad strength if playing our best and hardest brings about injuries.  Other sides will be picking up injuries too.

So our best chance from here on in is to use the two years we've been allegedly growing to push hard from here on in.  Heat ourselves up into a battle mood and just see how far it takes us.  I think that's a big issue with us right now.  We still haven't gotten into any kind of battle mood.  We're still casual observers.

There is no way we can attempt anymore 'containment' Italian games, hoping to hold ourselves ready for tougher games to come.  Potentially four more games.  All out war.

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Nothing like the Irish Psyche when there is a possibility of doing well in anything..... WINNING  SOMETHING!

Enough of the wishy washy fence sitting vernacular, we are here to WIN goddamit WIN!!  

Hey...I'm with you Rodders

OK guys let me clarify a few comments.

The comment about losing to France was (semi) tongue in cheek. We should aim to top the pool ... but I'm not altogether convinced we will be much better placed to go further if we do - looking at the form sides so far and the draw.

Re:making a final. I think the first objective is to win the pool, or qualify to the KO stages (which we have).

Beyond that the next major milestone is getting into the final.

Obviously each game has to be taken in context - especially when it's reviewed retrospectively but I don't accept that reaching a SF would signify anything other than minor progress, if at all, from 2011 - Given that:-

The RWC is in the NH.
We have a better squad and coaches
We've avoided any of the tri-nations in the pool.
We are reigning 6N champions.

We need to show that we can perform over a succession of weeks not just one or two big performances, which we have shown in the past we can do.

,

rodders wrote:I've been thinking about this and.... I think we'd be better off losing this one.

I think we stand a good chance of a first ever win against the ABs, who aren't in top form, in the QF, then a likely SF against SA and final against the Wallabies - who'd be knackered at that stage.

Alternatively we throw the kitchen sink against France the reward is a red hot Argentina team, then the Wallabies and if we can get through that a final against the ABs, if they've played themselves into form, or the Boks/France.

It's a no brainer, we should field a weakened team here.  

Who's with me? Joe are you reading this??  

And Ireland have a secret moss elixir which has been especially formulated to assist in de-knackering?

rodders wrote:

We need to show that we can perform over a succession of weeks not just one or two big performances, which we have shown in the past we can do.

,

Oh how do the new kids on the block do it?..... emmmmmmmmmmmm

...Oh yeah.....

THIS!

Tony Wards team with some commentary on Payne http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/comment/tony-ward-ireland-xv-to-take-on-france-no-place-for-simon-zebo-31585395.html

Blanko wrote:Tony Wards team with some commentary on Payne http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/comment/tony-ward-ireland-xv-to-take-on-france-no-place-for-simon-zebo-31585395.html

Conrad Smith not a world class talent??

I think that will be the team but I'd be surprised if Zebo isn't on the bench to cover full back with questions over RK's fitness - Joe might go for DK though as he can play either wing, both in good form.

After watching the Italy match I think France will blow us off the park.

FecklessRogue wrote:After watching the Italy match I think France will blow us off the park.

We're a good bit ahead of France on points difference. We also played Italy, in cup final mode, with Parisee on the pitch. Looking at Ireland and France's past 3 performances collectively - Ireland have been better. Obviously that's no guarantee of a win, but it would be an absolute disaster (NZ QF aside) if we got blown off the park.

FecklessRogue wrote:After watching the Italy match I think France will blow us off the park.

Why? France weren't great against Italy either.

I actually think all this talk about having hidden power plays is a rouse to keep France guessing.

I think France are really nervous about this one because they don't know whether we will come with an ariel bombardment or keep the ball in hand.

I think we will mix up between the two at different stages of the game and that creates indecision and doubt in their defense, whereas we know exactly how they will play.

I think if we can execute our plan we'll not only win but win well.

I think you'll have more chance if you execute Picamoles, Dusatoir, Michlak and Fofana before the game rather than just executing your plan

If Ireland approach the game as they did against Italy with their defensive lines the yes, they will get hammered.

France do not like aggressive defences so that's exactly the plan I think Ireland will deploy.

France look very powerful. Can Ireland cope with that? Should win a tight duel if they can compete upfront though.

rodders wrote:
I think France are really nervous about this one because they don't know whether we will come with an ariel bombardment or keep the ball in hand.

PSA is already planning to start full backs on the wings (...) because he's scared of the Irish quality kicking. the 2nd part of the game plan will be to send a forward (or bastreaud) towards Sexton (when he gets the ball) as fast as possible. they seem to ignore the other facet of the Irish game but then again am not surprised.

It's quiet in here. Has Group D been banned from this World Cup due to lack of Interest shown by the combatants?

I think people are fearing the Curve

eirebilly wrote:If Ireland approach the game as they did against Italy with their defensive lines the yes, they will get hammered.

France do not like aggressive defences so that's exactly the plan I think Ireland will deploy.

Two words:-

Jared

Pain.

SecretFly wrote:It's quiet in here.   Has Group D been banned from this World Cup due to lack of Interest shown by the combatants?

I'm skipping this one and concentrating on Argentina -can we get another match thread up please? Nothing to see here!

It's funny but that's the two groups with possibly the least interest from the NH media...
Group D and Group C.

The Finalist from last time and the Winner from last time.

I guess the 'minnows' are having their fun for now in the early stages before flying home...................... or driving

RubyGuby wrote:I think people are fearing the Curve

Like yourselves Ruby, it's not so much the Curve, it's the flat-lining!

Just another issue that crops up in my mind - apart from what tactics we'll use or not use.  We're told Ireland are a smart team.  Not fully loaded with genuine talent but smart and well drilled.

So.... let's hope we prove that point at least.  The team and coaches have watched enough games now to know how discipline issues are being handled at this WC.  So smartness would assume Joe and his coaches have noticed and have transmitted direct advice to the team - most notably, No catching players around the throat area, no high tackles.  All fans now know this particular one is being ruthlessly reffed, so all players Should know.

No excuses...and no silly yellow cards.

SecretFly wrote:
No excuses...and no silly yellow cards.

Totally agree - lets get on the right side of Nigel and only give them away in our own 22.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:If Ireland approach the game as they did against Italy with their defensive lines the yes, they will get hammered.

France do not like aggressive defences so that's exactly the plan I think Ireland will deploy.

Two words:-

Jared

Pain.

It probably will be him in there.

I have this feeling that Ireland may actually set up a game plan to negate France rather than go out and play their own style and try to win the game as we know they can.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:If Ireland approach the game as they did against Italy with their defensive lines the yes, they will get hammered.

France do not like aggressive defences so that's exactly the plan I think Ireland will deploy.

Two words:-

Jared

Pain.

It probably will be him in there.

I have this feeling that Ireland may actually set up a game plan to negate France rather than go out and play their own style and try to win the game as we know they can.

We've beaten France on the past 2 occasions, we don't need to find something different to win, they do.

They'll come to bludgeon us using the pack and Basterau and it will fail because we've seen it all before.

Payne and Henshaw will target Michelak off the set piece and we'll see the diamond sweeping around in behind and Payne used as a decoy to mix it up - as well as the inside ball back against the ruck.

France are made for Schmidt's multi phase power plays because of their lazy defense, it eventually breaks down.

If we can control the territory I think this will be comfortable enough as this French side don't have the capacity to break out of their half, especially minus Huget, the way French sides have in the past.

Ireland have beaten France on the last two occasions, yes but last year it was a very unorganised French team and last 6N Ireland were very lucky to hang on for the win.

France look a lot more settled this RWC and in some good form. Ireland have not.

In the warm up matches, Ireland looked poor and after two decent wins against poor opposition they again looked poor against Italy. I would not take France lightly.

No one will take France lightly Billy - For me its a 6-8 point win for France but you lot are more than capable of frustrating them and picking off what's left and winning - Good luck to you, your boys and the lads on here -

I think some may take France lightly there Guru but I sure as hell wont. I expect a very tough game for Ireland but do believe that if Ireland keep the ball in hand more, they will win. Got to improve massively in defence from the Italy game as well, cant do that passive defence style against France.

Good luck to your lads against the crims.

France have done what they've had to to get through their games, so have we.

If they've been so much better than us then why are we above them in the pool?

I'm not taking them lightly but am not accepting we are underdogs, suddenly on the basis of one uninspiring performance against Italy.