Should the WRU sack Warren Gatland?

First topic message reminder :

Just a simple from a simple poster

Personally I think a another world class coach would be celebrating that victory today against a decent but not great South African team. We never looked like doing anything with the ball in hand and the kicking was very aimless at times. Sacking him would be harsh but sometimes you need to make positive changes even though they can cause disruption

So should Wales stick with the status quo or try and get some fresh blood in to spark things up in the team?

I think Gatland is an outstanding coach. A hugely experienced and successful man to have at the helm. Wales did really well snaffling Gatland and Edwards. The RFU missed a trick then and have continued to miss the trick ever since.

If Wales don't want them then England should swoop.

Steffan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:No the WRU shouldn't. What I think they should do however, is get Ponty off the map - worst supporters in world rugby.

Not entirely related to the topic but a good attempt at a wind up there Saint

What with your backup coming out of hiding I expect you to be on top form again now

I don't understand?

But yes I was clearly on a windup. You know it worked . I actually haven't had any bad run-ins with anyone from Ponty...except for over the Internet where you all seem to have the same attitude and resentment for everything outside of Ponty. Good team up there in Sardis Road, but the fans are scary.

Pre-Gatland - World cup group stage, one six nations win in a sea of abject mediocrity
With Gatland- Three six nations wins, World cup semi-final, world cup quarter final from the toughest world cup group ever with multiple injuries to key players and a win away at Twickenham, effectively a series win over Australia in 2013. Also add in the fact that the Welsh regions are dreadful and yet Gatland churns out results year on year.


Sack him, get rid of him. I would say that he needs variance in his back room, his tactics against the Southern Hemisphere are too rigid.

I'm saving for Euro 2016 so wont be experiencing the Ponty riff raff much this season

I like to sing,
I like to dance,
I got a passport,
I'm off to France

123456789. wrote:Pre-Gatland - World cup group stage, one six nations win in a sea of abject mediocrity
With Gatland- Three six nations wins, World cup semi-final, world cup quarter final from the toughest world cup group ever with multiple injuries to key players and a win away at Twickenham, effectively a series win over Australia in 2013. Also add in the fact that the Welsh regions are dreadful and yet Gatland churns out results year on year.


Sack him, get rid of him. I would say that he needs variance in his back room, his tactics against the Southern Hemisphere are too rigid.

Before Gatland -: Michael Owen, Gareth Cooper, Will James, Ceri Sweeney, Jamie Robinson......

Lets be honest we have far better players available to us now than we did in the pre-Gatland days.

No he should stay. Sack Howley though and bring in a better attack coach. That's what I think Wales should do if they want to improve.

Last world cup Wales only beat one top 10 team and the world practicaly shat itself over them. This time they get essentially the same results and we want to sack the coach?

TBH Im surprised Gatland hasnt just moved on himself. Wales have something of a glass ceiling through their resources, poor genetics, and the general mailaise of NH rugby. Theres only so much a coach can do. Hes managed to acheive as much or more than any of the other Euro coaches have since Woodward really.

Id be surprised if Wales could find a better candidate easily, and certainly would have the potential for a year or two of pain making a transition. Settled coaches are a rarity these days, unless the wheels are really coming off getting rid of him would be a bit odd.

Gatland should sack the WRU. We all know most of the Welsh rugby going public would back him

Rule by Decree!!!!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

123456789. wrote:Pre-Gatland - World cup group stage, one six nations win in a sea of abject mediocrity
With Gatland- Three six nations wins, World cup semi-final, world cup quarter final from the toughest world cup group ever with multiple injuries to key players and a win away at Twickenham, effectively a series win over Australia in 2013. Also add in the fact that the Welsh regions are dreadful and yet Gatland churns out results year on year.


Sack him, get rid of him. I would say that he needs variance in his back room, his tactics against the Southern Hemisphere are too rigid.

Before Gatland -: Michael Owen, Gareth Cooper, Will James, Ceri Sweeney, Jamie Robinson......

Lets be honest we have far better players available to us now than we did in the pre-Gatland days.

Erm, I know it's all subjective, but Gareth Cooper was a good player in his prime IMO (but not so towards the end. Same for most players I s'pose). Michael Owen was a decent player too. Exactly the sort of footballing back rower we're perhaps missing now. We've currently got 3 main back row starters who just look for contact, go to ground, recycle and repeat, ad nauseum. A bit of variety is exactly what we need. Tipuric could be that man if Warbs was out, but Warbs is no 8 IMO and a bit of grunt is needed too (Lydiate).

^^^^ again with the folk overrating Tipuric - Warburton is one of the best in the world he shouldn't move for anyone.

Anyway, McBryde and Edwards are out of contract soon, and Howley at the end of the season I think? I want Edwards to stay but the other two can go. The wru state that it's Gatlands choice to make.

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

123456789. wrote:Pre-Gatland - World cup group stage, one six nations win in a sea of abject mediocrity
With Gatland- Three six nations wins, World cup semi-final, world cup quarter final from the toughest world cup group ever with multiple injuries to key players and a win away at Twickenham, effectively a series win over Australia in 2013. Also add in the fact that the Welsh regions are dreadful and yet Gatland churns out results year on year.


Sack him, get rid of him. I would say that he needs variance in his back room, his tactics against the Southern Hemisphere are too rigid.

Before Gatland -: Michael Owen, Gareth Cooper, Will James, Ceri Sweeney, Jamie Robinson......

Lets be honest we have far better players available to us now than we did in the pre-Gatland days.

Erm, I know it's all subjective, but Gareth Cooper was a good player in his prime IMO (but not so towards the end. Same for most players I s'pose). Michael Owen was a decent player too. Exactly the sort of footballing back rower we're perhaps missing now. We've currently got 3 main back row starters who just look for contact, go to ground, recycle and repeat, ad nauseum. A bit of variety is exactly what we need. Tipuric could be that man if Warbs was out, but Warbs is no 8 IMO and a bit of grunt is needed too (Lydiate).

Having said that I think the Welsh injury crisis went beyond bad luck, the preparation work needs to be looked into.

mikey_dragon wrote:^^^^ again with the folk overrating Tipuric - Warburton is one of the best in the world he shouldn't move for anyone.

To be honest I'm not a huge Tipuric fan. But to take the next step I do agree with some others that we need to add some better attacking rugby to our game. And at least one footballing/running/offloading back row player would be a good start. If not Tips then someone else. How good is Warburton really? Worth a turnover or two at best per game? Good in defence, like the rest of the team. Controversial maybe but perhaps Warbs is another that's a good cog in the Welsh machine but isn't really a world beater when you look at his contributions individually over a season? Good in front of the cameras though.

Griff wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:^^^^ again with the folk overrating Tipuric - Warburton is one of the best in the world he shouldn't move for anyone.

To be honest I'm not a huge Tipuric fan. But to take the next step I do agree with some others that we need to add some better attacking rugby to our game. And at least one footballing/running/offloading back row player would be a good start. If not Tips then someone else. How good is Warburton really? Worth a turnover or two at best per game? Good in defence, like the rest of the team. Controversial maybe but perhaps Warbs is another that's a good cog in the Welsh machine but isn't really a world beater when you look at his contributions individually over a season? Good in front of the cameras though.

You're not the only one Griff, so don't feel offended. But reading this post here it seems you're just repeating what a lot of people say without substance. Why do we need a footballing back-row? The unit we have now works pretty well, but only Warburton could walk into any other team in world rugby. So if you want change perhaps it should be at the expense of someone else. However Warburton is clearly the best 7, and Tipuric can't really play anywhere else - his last start shows that. He seems to live off games against England and Ireland. Warburton might not replicate his form for the Blues every week but you have to take into consideration he has previously been injured a lot, and his crap team were always on the back foot. Looking at his Wales form over the past year he's clearly one of the top open-sides in world rugby IMO.

Btw, even if Warburton only gets the odd turnover as you say, then it's still a better contribution than Tipruic. In addition to that I also rate him as a better carrier and tackler. Warburton should have had more turnovers this tournament, but seems to be on the wrong side of refs for some odd reason.

I disagree that he'd walk into any team in the world.

I'm just asking some questions to be honest. The main areas that we are lacking in IMO is at the break down and in attack. So either some back row changes or different coaching there would be a good start, as would a change in attack coaching. And a good back row link man would be great too, to bring those two things together.

P.s. Mikey, you come across as if only what you think is correct. Sh*t posting skills.

wrfc1980 wrote:The elephant in the room is the almost total inability of wales to beat SH competition under GATS. 2 wins in 25 is a huge concern. Wales simply are not and never have been real contenders to win the world cup as they find it virtually impossible to beat SH teams. GATS has worked a lot of magic to make wales competitive in the 6 nations but I'm astounded he is rarely questioned over his inability to progress Wales beyond that.

His Lions did OK.

The prior 2 wins took place over 43 games.

Griff wrote:I disagree that he'd walk into any team in the world.

I'm just asking some questions to be honest. The main areas that we are lacking in IMO is at the break down and in attack. So either some back row changes or different coaching there would be a good start, as would a change in attack coaching. And a good back row link man would be great too, to bring those two things together.

I think he would, but be on the bench for NZ and Aus as they wouldn't change their back-row for anyone.

I can see what you're getting at, but thinking we can achieve free-flowing rugby by introducing this 'footballing' back-row is pretty delusional. Firstly we just don't play that way anymore, and it's unlikely we'll move away from Gatlandball in the near future - I also don't believe that Gatlandball should be getting all the criticism it does. It looks as if we can't pull off a good backs move to save our lives. When we last did it was reliant on a form Cuthbert and North as they were always heavily involved in midfield. Cuthbert is hopeless now so we seem to be relying on up and unders. So rather than alter the back-row we should look at the backs coach and selection in the backs - granted we couldn't really in this tournament because we lost so many through injury. Having forwards who can do basics as well as the All Black forwards would be nice of course - but I just don't see having a flanker act as an extra back rather than a flanker is the answer.

Yes I rate my own opinion very highly, probably because I'm always right . Lately however I'm particularly fed up of people questioning Warburton and calling for Tips to start. It probably riles me up a lot more than it should.

I didn't say footballing 'back row'. That would imply all three! I said 1 of them to be a bit more of a footballer, to add some balance. 3 bosh merchants isn't great. You say 'we just don't play that way anymore'. I know! That's the whole point of this debate. What can we change? And how? To get us to the next level. When Scotland start scoring more tries than us then you know you're in trouble (no offence Scottish posters, although that is pretty offensive)!

Griff wrote:I didn't say footballing 'back row'. That would imply all three! I said 1 of them to be a bit more of a footballer, to add some balance. 3 bosh merchants isn't great. You say 'we just don't play that way anymore'. I know! That's the whole point of this debate. What can we change? And how? To get us to the next level. When Scotland start scoring more tries than us then you know you're in trouble (no offence Scottish posters, although that is pretty offensive)!

Come up with a plan that would enable Jamie Roberts to look to off load to supporting players who know he's going to look to off load, now and again. Like Nonu does, maybe.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:I didn't say footballing 'back row'. That would imply all three! I said 1 of them to be a bit more of a footballer, to add some balance. 3 bosh merchants isn't great. You say 'we just don't play that way anymore'. I know! That's the whole point of this debate. What can we change? And how? To get us to the next level. When Scotland start scoring more tries than us then you know you're in trouble (no offence Scottish posters, although that is pretty offensive)!

Come up with a plan that would enable Jamie Roberts to look to off load to supporting players who know he's going to look to off load, now and again. Like Nonu does, maybe.

That would be a good start. Keep the opposition guessing!

No offense taken Griff.

I think there are a number of interrelated decisions to take here
1) Can the players available play a more attacking high risk style that would lead to more tries / wins against SH sides?
2) Can Gatland get them to play in a more attacking / high risk way?
3) Is there another coach available who can get more out of the players?

I find the whole "gatlandball" an interesting conundrum. In the last 6N we all knew what was going to happen - but no one could really counter it. You know Wales will kick every ball in their own half. You know it will be crash ball in the centre off the set piece. You know they will play for penalties in the scrums. You know it will be brick wall defence - but still no one in the NH could counter it.

Lancaster tried but IMO he went the wrong way. He should have gone for speed and trickery to outwit the welsh defense, instead he went for solid midfeild defence but in doing so lost his ability to score the tries needed.

TJ wrote:No offense taken Griff.

I think there are a number of interrelated decisions to take here
1) Can the players available play a more attacking high risk style that would lead to more tries / wins against SH sides?
2) Can Gatland get them to play in a more attacking / high risk  way?
3) Is there another coach available who can get more out of the players?

I find the whole "gatlandball" an interesting conundrum.  In the last 6N we all knew what was going to happen - but no one could really counter it.  You know Wales will kick every ball in their own half.  You know it will be crash ball in the centre off the set piece.  You know they will play for penalties in the scrums.  You know it will be brick wall defence - but still no one in the NH could counter it.

Lancaster tried but IMO he went the wrong way.  He should have gone for speed and trickery to outwit the welsh defense, instead he went for solid midfeild defence but in doing so lost his ability to score the tries needed.

TJ, I think personally that the answers to your questions (which I agree with as 3 important discussion points) are:

1) yes, we saw against Italy away this year that we can run it from our own try line, offload, etc. when we want to. Ok it's 'only' Italy but we've played some excellent running stuff in a few of our encounters v Aus and in a handful of 6N matches over the recent past. Just not much, unfortunately.

2) Possibly. But it would take a big momentum shift in his game plan. Parts of the plan are rather good I feel. Just not the attacking bit.

3) Yes I think so. But I wouldn't want him to go now either. So a specialist coach in a back room shakeup would be my choice. Out with Howley and in with AN Other would be my call. Why not freshen things up a bit?

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:I didn't say footballing 'back row'. That would imply all three! I said 1 of them to be a bit more of a footballer, to add some balance. 3 bosh merchants isn't great. You say 'we just don't play that way anymore'. I know! That's the whole point of this debate. What can we change? And how? To get us to the next level. When Scotland start scoring more tries than us then you know you're in trouble (no offence Scottish posters, although that is pretty offensive)!

Come up with a plan that would enable Jamie Roberts to look to off load to supporting players who know he's going to look to off load, now and again. Like Nonu does, maybe.

That would be a good start. Keep the opposition guessing!

Still astounded that we couldn't create a walk in against 13. Or am I?
Awesome defence though, yawn.

Yeah I think we should sack Gatland and Chris Coleman. This world ranking stuff , grand slams and European qualification just raises expectations. It's just not Welsh mun is it. I'd like to see Gareth Jenkins brought back to the helm with his own back up staff and maybe Vinny Jones for the football team alongside Dai Jones from Abedare. That should ensure we get back to where we belong rather than all this merry go round stuff every year when we worry about winning or coming second . It's just not proper Welsh is it

Let's have a campaign for proper Welsh sporting teams like Newport County and Tonmawr RFC proper Welsh proper Shoite it just makes more sense

Griff wrote:I didn't say footballing 'back row'. That would imply all three! I said 1 of them to be a bit more of a footballer, to add some balance. 3 bosh merchants isn't great. You say 'we just don't play that way anymore'. I know! That's the whole point of this debate. What can we change? And how? To get us to the next level. When Scotland start scoring more tries than us then you know you're in trouble (no offence Scottish posters, although that is pretty offensive)!

Well when we talk about 6's and 7's I tend to refer to them as a 'back-row' but I wasn't being very clear just then I guess. They aren't just bosh merchants in our back-row though are they, andour No.8 isn't the best carrier. Warburton carries a lot and Lydiate is carrying more now but he isn't too smart IMO and tends to do it at the wrong time and gets isolated. He really did show his worth in this tournament though and he's a big guy which is what we need on the flanks. They're selected to work as a unit and it works well for us. We don't have an 8 like Vermuelen but if we did it he would probably be the first name on the team sheet! So it's not really a unit id break up and the World Cup showed that. Certainly not for Tipuric just because he pops up on the wing every now and then whilst getting less turnovers. As for what we can change well I said that in the previous post - I also said what we shouldn't change, which is the back-row to accommodate an overrated (IMO) open-side flanker. Irrational point about the try-scoring when you look at the opposition Scotland had compared to ours. If we were playing minnows then we'd probably get more than 5 or 6 tries, and did so against Uruguay without even trying by the looks of it.

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

123456789. wrote:Pre-Gatland - World cup group stage, one six nations win in a sea of abject mediocrity
With Gatland- Three six nations wins, World cup semi-final, world cup quarter final from the toughest world cup group ever with multiple injuries to key players and a win away at Twickenham, effectively a series win over Australia in 2013. Also add in the fact that the Welsh regions are dreadful and yet Gatland churns out results year on year.


Sack him, get rid of him. I would say that he needs variance in his back room, his tactics against the Southern Hemisphere are too rigid.

Before Gatland -: Michael Owen, Gareth Cooper, Will James, Ceri Sweeney, Jamie Robinson......

Lets be honest we have far better players available to us now than we did in the pre-Gatland days.

Erm, I know it's all subjective, but Gareth Cooper was a good player in his prime IMO (but not so towards the end. Same for most players I s'pose). Michael Owen was a decent player too. Exactly the sort of footballing back rower we're perhaps missing now. We've currently got 3 main back row starters who just look for contact, go to ground, recycle and repeat, ad nauseum. A bit of variety is exactly what we need. Tipuric could be that man if Warbs was out, but Warbs is no 8 IMO and a bit of grunt is needed too (Lydiate).

Trying to point out that there were different players before Gatlands reign etc. Same as the post someone made regarding the pre-RWC friendly result Vrs England in 2007 compared to the during-RWC test match result from this year. Different sides, different players, different positions in the pecking order.

Trying to compare where we are now compared to where we were before is not as simple as it seems. There are so many variables. We would be better of looking at where we are now, and where we feel we should be, and judging Gatland that way.