6 Nations - your predictions for rugby's new 2nd tier

First topic message reminder :

Well with us all being out of the World Cup I think we can move on and look forward to the worlds premier competition in rugby... My predictions for the final table in 2016 is as follows:
1. Wales
2. Ireland
3. Scotland
4. France
5. England
6. Italy

I truly believe Wales are going to be in a strong position by February. We'll still be without some key players but have some players to come back in with the likes of Liam Williams and perhaps JD2. We'll also have some better players to come in, Rob Evans anyone? The fitness and strength levels will still be very high as Gatland has had more time with the guys. It's wales' tournament .

Ireland weren't the greatest going into the World Cup and were a distinct second best to Argentina yesterday. However when it comes to 6 Nations opposition Ireland have had the beating of most of the opposition, evident by winning the last two tournaments. The provincial teams are not far off international standard, so Ireland will also still be playing at a high intensity by Feb.

Scotland I think are improving and this will continue into the 6 Nations. I think third is a realistic target for the team. Playing out of sorts France and England teams at home will help their cause. They now also have the beating of Italy - who only seem to be getting worse and could be without their talismanic captain(?). Glasgow are a good team, Edinburgh are continuing to improve. Both will soon overtake the Welsh domestic teams IMO. This will only help the strength of the Scottish team who finally have a good coach.

I think the bottom 3 will all be with new coaches, France and Italy definitely will be. I think it's a big ask to immediately turn around the fortunes of these teams in such a short space of time and England are no doubt building for the 2027 World Cup anyway...

So over to V2. Who's your pick and why?

Normality will be restored:
1. It will be between England, Wales and Ireland with home advantage key.
2. With France we never know, unlikely to pose a consistent threat.
3. Scotland will be the "dark horse", hard to beat at home.
4. Italy will be pants.

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

123456789. wrote:I reckon:

1. Scotland
2. England
3. Wales
4. Ireland
5. France
6. Italy

I think that could be close to the out come.

Scotland have looked the better of the home nations this rugby world cup. really pushing Australia to the last kick of tthe game.

Wales although had Australia in more or less the same position (but could not score a try all game even when Australia was down too 13 men) Scotland did at least score try's and only lost by 1 point.

You will conveniently continue to gloss over the fact that Foley had a stinker with the boot and that whilst it is true that they scored more than Wales, Scotland also didn't strictly create much for their tries and still conceded five more than Wales.

Scotland are always capable of raising their game v SH teams. It doesn't necessarily mean a good six nations showing. You see strong Scottish performances most autumns. Are you basically saying Madge, that you expect them to beat England?

For what it's worth;

Ireland
Wales
England
Scotland
France
Italy

Normally I would agree with this. However with arguably the best front row in the tournament, the Gray Brothers at lock, a dynamic and powerful backrow, a very good halfback pairing, capable centres and fast strike runners on the wings and at full back.

Just to show how good our pack was against Australia, Australia were turned over 17 times, to Scotland’s 9.


Throw in the coaching of Stern Vern and Nathan Hines I would say if we don't back up the RWC performance in this years 6N we never will!

Radge, if I didn't know you better it looks like you're saying that we're dark horses for this year's 6 Nations...

George Carlin wrote:Radge, if I didn't know you better it looks like you're saying that we're dark horses for this year's 6 Nations...

About 20 posters have already beaten me to it mate

That means we are shoe ins for the wooden spoon!

FACT.

England will continue building and our positive culture will allow us to show our bouncebackability and turn out a positive showing, hitting 90% of our key performance indicators. As LondonTiger suggests, second with 4 wins. Pats on the back all round, but room for improvement.

A lot will also depend on what France team turn up and whether Wales get to play "on their day(s)" - when they are the best team in the world. A mixture of the sublime and the ridiculous. 3rd and 4th between them.

I wouldn't rule out Scotland as dark horses for the tournament. But 5th.

Ireland and Italy are boring and don't have as many cliches. 1st and 6th respectively.

To be honest, my top four are pretty interchangeable.

The chances of anyone getting a Grand Slam?

Ireland have away trips to France and England and might fancy it, with 2 of their fellow quarter-finalists (and Italy) at home. They are obviously back-to-back champions, thrashed France in the World Cup and watched any illusions of Fortress Twickenham completely shattered in two weeks. They are, in fact, the next visitors to Twickenham in Week 3.

If England can win the opener at Murrayfield, we have a fair shot with Wales and Ireland (the strongest of our two rivals, in my opinion) at home. A Grand Slam game against France in Paris would be a huge test of how far this team has come, considering how we fluffed our lines in 2011 and 2013 going for the biggest prize on the last day.

Wales may find it tough with trips to Ireland and England, and might be a good bet if it comes down to points difference win on points difference with Italy, France and Scotland (last year's 4, 5 and 6) at home. But they did the Grand Slam this way round in 2008 and 2012, and they recently beat England at Twickenham, so the players will have no fear.

France start with two home games and have away trips to Wales and Scotland, but with Ireland and England at home (last year's 1 and 2), they might fancy their chances if they can get Noves reign off to a good start.

Scotland may go into the England game at home on the opening weekend as favourites to win for the first time in quite a while, and a win there could open up the tournament for them. They'll face tough trips to Wales and Ireland, and with England and France both not as strong as they have traditionally been, this year may be the wrong way round for them.

Italy have 2 home games, have to go to Ireland (who they lost to in the World Cup), France (who they lost to in the World Cup) and Wales (who beat them by 60-odd points in Italy last year). They have no hope. Not a single one.

Wales might indeed find it tough away to Ireland and England but on both recent occasions they have won at both venues and with some players back they will fear nothing and go into these games with confidence.

RubyGuby wrote:Wales might indeed find it tough away to Ireland and England but on both recent occasions they have won at both venues and with some players back they will fear nothing and go into these games with confidence.

I don't think they will fear going to Twickenham or the Aviva but as we know there 6 Nations is not like other tournaments and form often goes out of the window.

That said, if we could get an away win first up against Ireland we then have two home games, win them and we would head to Twickenham in good shape and hopefully lots of confidence.

I think the big question for us is do we start developing now in this 6 Nations or wait until the summer tour.

We develop in the 6 Nations, time to give Jamie a rest in midfield and try some new combos. Amos Williams and 1/2p as the back 3 suits me with North and A N Other in midfield. Is Rory Thornton ready for this?

RubyGuby wrote:We develop in the 6 Nations, time to give Jamie a rest in midfield and try some new combos. Amos Williams and 1/2p as the back 3 suits me with North and A N Other in midfield. Is Rory Thornton ready for this?

I guess its a fine line of when to or by how much. I would certainly look at giving Rob Evans and Moriarty an extended run and as you mentioned give Doc a rest and let's see how Sc Williams and JD go for a few games.

Why don't we.......................................... em.......................... why don't we all agree to use..................to use this year's..................... Six Nations....................for.............................. development squa.............................................

Quick Joe!!!!!!!!!!!! Pick our best team!!!!!!!!!!!! The Welsh have fallen for it!!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

123456789. wrote:I reckon:

1. Scotland
2. England
3. Wales
4. Ireland
5. France
6. Italy

I think that could be close to the out come.

Scotland have looked the better of the home nations this rugby world cup. really pushing Australia to the last kick of tthe game.

Wales although had Australia in more or less the same position (but could not score a try all game even when Australia was down too 13 men) Scotland did at least score try's and only lost by 1 point.

You will conveniently continue to gloss over the fact that Foley had a stinker with the boot and that whilst it is true that they scored more than Wales, Scotland also didn't strictly create much for their tries and still conceded five more than Wales.

Scotland are always capable of raising their game v SH teams. It doesn't necessarily mean a good six nations showing. You see strong Scottish performances most autumns. Are you basically saying Madge, that you expect them to beat England?

For what it's worth;

Ireland
Wales
England
Scotland
France
Italy

Normally I would agree with this. However with arguably the best front row in the tournament, the Gray Brothers at lock, a dynamic and powerful backrow, a very good halfback pairing, capable centres and fast strike runners on the wings and at full back.

Just to show how good our pack was against Australia, Australia were turned over 17 times, to Scotland’s 9.


Throw in the coaching of Stern Vern and Nathan Hines I would say if we don't back up the RWC performance in this years 6N we never will!

no offence, but that was one game. if they continue to prove themselves constantly i agree

Majextic - Scotland did better than any of the other home nations being the only team to come close to beating a SH side and clearly doing better against AUS than either England or Wales

TJ wrote:Majextic - Scotland did better than any of the other home nations being the only team to come close to beating a SH side and clearly doing better against AUS than either England or Wales

very true, but there are so many variables to take much from it because it's not just down to Englands, Wales or Scotlands performance. It's down to Austrailias too.

So Australia played best against England...

Like it. Of course they raised their game against England - everyone does ABE

I think you lot are delusional putting Scotland at 1!
They scored 3 tries because Australia didn't show Scotland enough respect and Scotland capitalized on silly mistakes, Australia didn't take those kinds of chances against Wales, and Australia did score 5 tries against Scotland, compared to none against Wales.  Because Australia knew they could score tries, they took chances to score more and conceded three as a result.  

I've no idea what to make about our up coming 6 Nations chances, all the coaches apart from Gatland's contracts expire in 2 weeks time, basically Shaun Edwards (defense), Robert Howley (attack), and Robin Mcbryde could all be gone and we'l have a matter of months to replace them and get the new coaching team functioning.  We also have a hell of a lot of long term injuries now, many players will be out for 5-6 months, and some will be touch and go for the 6 Nations never mind building up to any kind of form.

Joe Schmidt and the IRFU won't dump all Ireland's older players because of the World Cup, you only have to think back to Ronan O'Gara to know anyone contracted to an Irish province won't be allowed to retire from international rugby.  

Realistically I have:

Week 1:
France v Italy : - winner France
Scotland V England - winner England
Ireland V Wales - winner Ireland

Week 2:
France V Ireland - winner France
Wales V Scotland - winner Wales
Italy V England - winner England

Week 3:
Wales V France - winner Wales
Italy V Scotland - winner Scotland
England V Ireland - winner England

Week 4:
Ireland V Italy - winner Ireland
England V Wales - winner England
Scotland V France - winner Scotland

Week 5
Wales V Italy - winner Wales
Ireland V Scotland - winner Ireland
France V England - winner France

Ok so we have:
England - 4 wins (triple crown)
Ireland - 3 wins
Wales - 3 wins
France - 3 wins
Scotland - 2 wins
Italy - 0 wins

There we go!

I think you rather underrate how hard the scots pushed Aus - but then that is the first time the scots have actually clicked with his squad and coach so its not surprising. Remember Wales couldn't score when playing 13 Australians and Scotland play for the interceptions and charge downs having scored a lot of tries from them - its not a fluke - its a tactic

TJ wrote:I think you rather underrate how hard the scots pushed Aus - but then that is the first time the scots have actually clicked with his squad and coach so its not surprising. Remember Wales couldn't score when playing 13 Australians and Scotland play for the interceptions and charge downs having scored a lot of tries from them - its not a fluke - its a tactic

I'm not underestimating anyone, but I do think in the Wales V Australia game, the defences were dominant, in the Scotland V Australia game, both teams concentrated more on attack. It's just how the game panned out. In the England V Australia game, Australia were dominant!

Scotland played well, but Aus were pretty poor by their standards. They left a lot of points on the pitch through botched tries and Foley's woeful kicking. Even so, they still looked like scoring every time they got in the Scottish half. Credit to Scotland for making it difficult but I think the scoreline flattered Scotland at the end.

It'll be interesting to see if Scotland can kick on, but I still see them in the bottom two.

Do they play Italy home or away next 6Ns?

Cyril wrote:Scotland played well, but Aus were pretty poor by their standards. They left a lot of points on the pitch through botched tries and Foley's woeful kicking. Even so, they still looked like scoring every time they got in the Scottish half. Credit to Scotland for making it difficult but I think the scoreline flattered Scotland at the end.

It'll be interesting to see if Scotland can kick on, but I still see them in the bottom two.

Do they play Italy home or away next 6Ns?

I put the fixtures a few posts above, Scotland are away.

Shifty wrote:

Cyril wrote:Scotland played well, but Aus were pretty poor by their standards. They left a lot of points on the pitch through botched tries and Foley's woeful kicking. Even so, they still looked like scoring every time they got in the Scottish half. Credit to Scotland for making it difficult but I think the scoreline flattered Scotland at the end.

It'll be interesting to see if Scotland can kick on, but I still see them in the bottom two.

Do they play Italy home or away next 6Ns?

I put the fixtures a few posts above, Scotland are away.

Ah, cheers.

Makes it a bit more difficult for the Scots that their best chance for a win is away from home then. Italy don't look particularly good though so they could win that one.

If you think Wales played better against Aus than Scotland did you are seriously deluded. Wales could not get a score with only 13 Australians on the pitch. Yes Scotlands defense was poor at time especially against the maul but there is no doubt at all Scotland unsettled Aus and those tries were not flukes - they were the result of the work done. Scotland scored interception tries in every game in the WC I think - they are going for the intercepts. Hornes try was scored 'cos Scotland had forced Aus to lose their defensive shape. Yes it was Aus errors - but forced by Scotlands play. Scotland did play a high risk attacking game and it almost worked for them. Wales played a low risk defensive game and never looked like winning.

Yes it is the only game that this squad have actually performed to their potential so I don't expect others to see it as anything but a one off. Scotland also blew a couple of tries.

How many tries did Wales score against Aus? In the whole tournament?

Cyril wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Cyril wrote:Scotland played well, but Aus were pretty poor by their standards. They left a lot of points on the pitch through botched tries and Foley's woeful kicking. Even so, they still looked like scoring every time they got in the Scottish half. Credit to Scotland for making it difficult but I think the scoreline flattered Scotland at the end.

It'll be interesting to see if Scotland can kick on, but I still see them in the bottom two.

Do they play Italy home or away next 6Ns?

I put the fixtures a few posts above, Scotland are away.

Ah, cheers.

Makes it a bit more difficult for the Scots that their best chance for a win is away from home then. Italy don't look particularly good though so they could win that one.

Good chance against England too who are no doubt a team in transition and France are very poor meanwhile the union that governs them appears to be imploding in insurrection.

TJ wrote:If you think Wales played better against Aus than Scotland did you are seriously deluded.  Wales could not get a score with only 13 Australians on the pitch.  Yes Scotlands defense was poor at time especially against the maul but there is no doubt at all Scotland unsettled Aus and those tries were not flukes - they were the result of the work done.  Scotland scored interception tries in every game in the WC I think - they are going for the intercepts.  Hornes try was scored 'cos Scotland had forced Aus to lose their defensive shape.  Yes it was Aus errors - but forced by Scotlands play.  Scotland did play a high risk attacking game and it almost worked for them.  Wales played a low risk defensive game and never looked like winning.

Yes it is the only game that this squad have actually performed to their potential so I don't expect others to see it as anything but a one off.  Scotland also blew a couple of tries.

How many tries did Wales score against Aus?  In the whole tournament?

It was only a matter of time before people started arguing about who was 'least worst'. 'We were the best because we scored 3 tries v Aus (but still lost)', 'no we were, because we conceded none and you conceded 5'. It's no wonder the SH posters laugh at us. We ALL lost, ALL went out in the quarters or earlier. If you want to celebrate that like some sort of success then be my guest. But I'm certainly not celebrating Wales' tournament. That was disappointing in terms of performance and exit point for me. I'm not happy with plucky defeats.

Griff,

Am with you 110% am sick and blydi tired of gallant defeats, plucky losers call it what you may but give me a boring as hell nicked at the death boring 3 nil win when it matters any day.

Yes we had more than our fair share of injuries and yes the lads that came in didn't look out of their depth but in the games against Australia and S Africa we still managed to put out or first choice pack and against the Boks the team had over 700 caps.

Well said Griff and I agree. I was countering other posters above. losing is losing and none of us were good enough

We did concede 5 less try's than you against Aus TJ and that's with a makeshift back line

We also came close against SA with 1 try a piece - how did your boys get on?

Scotland have the makings of a decent team let's see how they go in Cardiff this year

I don't think we were plucky or gallant. The boys did their best against slightly better opposition, nothing wrong with accepting that. I'm proud of the way they went about their business, very proud actually

Fair enough Ruby

One thing I would say is that Scotland are in a far better place than they have been for years. A settled team with a fair bit of talent, a coach who appears to be settling in nicely and the clubs are doing well. Time for some results tho for sure. My predictions - 3 wins. Italy France and one of England or wales.

I think we'll beat Scotland again. Scotland are just one of those teams that won't convince me until they've actually got the W. The team showed much promise last year, and when you look at the team sheet it isn't a team you can picture finishing last - but unfortunately that is what happened. There has been a steady improvement since then however and if that continues into Februrary then they're good enough to finish in the top 3.

TJ wrote:Well said Griff and I agree.  I was countering other posters above.  losing is losing and none of us were good enough

Sorry you took the brunt of my post there TJ, as you've been extremely level headed and gracious after the Scottish loss to Aus at a time when emotions have been bubbling over elsewhere. But it was the most recent post on the topic that I happened to see that was arguing about the best of the plucky losers!

On a slightly separate nite: I know everyone feels different affiliations to other 6N teams, or no affiliations at all, or some, etc., and I'd never expect anyone to support Wales just because they're fellow 'Brits', but if you were to ask me I'd genuinely love to see two 6N sides (preferable UK and Ireland teams) in World Cup semi finals next time. That has to be the minimum ambition. And then hopefully at least 1 in the final. I'd love it if we could collectively get round the table and agree a productive way forward that will allow us to keep our strong identify and history as a 5/6N group, but also make changes that put us in a better position to compete. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath

TJ wrote:One thing I would say is that Scotland are in a far better place than they have been for years.  A settled team with a fair bit of talent, a coach who appears to be settling in nicely and the clubs are doing well.  Time for some results tho for sure.  My predictions - 3 wins. Italy France and one of England or wales.

I think 2 or 3 wins is possible but I dont see you winning in Cardiff against a strong Welsh side who still have a lot to prove. Then again if you win your first game home to England then anything can happen. Conversely lose that one and a familiar pattern starts to appear. Good luck and keep the tartan on the jerseys I Like it and the wife does

Can we call the World Cup off now on a technicality and start again?  I think we're warmed up now and would give those bad lads from the Underworld a right good thrashing if we went at it again!

mikey_dragon wrote:I think we'll beat Scotland again. Scotland are just one of those teams that won't convince me until they've actually got the W. The team showed much promise last year, and when you look at the team sheet it isn't a team you can picture finishing last - but unfortunately that is what happened. There has been a steady improvement since then however and if that continues into Februrary then they're good enough to finish in the top 3.

Last year they were horribly inexperienced and hadn't had time with the new coach. This 6 N we will be less inexperienced altho still very callow - the teamagainst Aus only had 400 caps and 4 players had half of them!

But you are right in one thing - until the wins against teams ranked higher start coming its all pipe dreams

I genuinely think we'll be in the mix this year. I don't think we'll win but I do kind of hope we can play a brand of rugby that takes us away from this forward driven dirge.

For what it's worth a fully fit Wales will win the 6N IMO.

Can we all just agree to play like the last weekend of the last 6N?! That was some lovely, running, try scoring, enjoyable rugby right there!

Wouldn't they be BagPipe dreams boys

Griff wrote:Can we all just agree to play like the last weekend of the last 6N?! That was some lovely, running, try scoring, enjoyable rugby right there!

Not for us it wasn't! We were rancid!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
For what it's worth a fully fit Wales will win the 6N IMO.

They would . Such a shame Wales won't be fully fit though, but I think we still got this!

Liam Williams may be back by then, and hopefully some wingers. Roberts and Morgan will continue in midfield if both are fit and able; Williams and Davies should still be out whilst I don't really rate the walking injury Cory Allen.

Agree with Griff that this really shouldn't turn into a bunch of bald fellers arguing about whose comb it is.

It is really very clear that a number of people here only watched Scotland once in this entire tournament - the Wallabies match - and are working hard to dismiss any positives of that performance which are inconveniently at odds with standard received wisdom about what Scotland 'are always like'.

That's fine, carry on. If you have watched the team over 5 matches, however, you will have seen a progression as the best 23 has slowly chosen itself and the game plan has settled. Sorry, just to help out any England fans reading: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game-plan

It certainly is true to say that you only get NH respect if you start consistently winning in the 6N and nobody could argue that Scotland has done that recently. So let's see how we go in the spring.

In the meantime, watch for Glasgow to gather speed rapidly in the league as they get all 21 lost players back and for Edinburgh's pack to start to splatter all opposition before it. Again, this will mean nothing to most people and that is absolutely fine.

I think that it's very difficult to look past Wales for the 6N. Their schedule looks workable and clearly are starting to build depth in every position. Ireland have work to do to reach the same level so we'll have to see how domestic form develops there.

Has anyone started the annual ' Scotland are Dark Horses' thread yet

Given recent injury news I'm going to have to retract my statement about Wales winning the 2016 Six Nations. We're running out of a team. Anscombe will miss the tournament through being out with an ankle injury, whilst Tyler Morgan has a dislocated shoulder. I didn't even know that they came off injured in the SA game! No news on the others who were already injured - all that I know is that Williams, Webb and Halfpenny will be out for the entire season; if they're lucky they'll make the closing weeks of the season.

Who's going to step up?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Has anyone started the annual ' Scotland are Dark Horses/Wooden spoon certs' thread yet

Fixed that one for you Bedford, no charge this time

The biggest question for me is who will learn from their mistakes?

England - terrible team selections, negative game plan in big games, rubbish scrum, shaky lineout. (I'm English)
Wales - Lack of ability to score tries when in the oppo 22 due to bosh approach.
Ireland - Narrow defence, execution
Scotland - Decision making and execution under pressure.
Italy - Er sorry not gonna happen.
France - Complete and total lack of any clue whatsoever. Terrible fitness, negative game plan.

Reading that not really a massive surprise no one is in the semi-finals......

When I feel a little sad about what happened to Scotland on Sunday, I immediately remember what happened to France.

NZ were red hot but France were an ungodly shambles. From an outside perspective with the way their domestic league is saturated with foreign talent I cannot see any way out for them before February.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:When I feel a little sad about what happened to Scotland on Sunday, I immediately remember what happened to France.

NZ were red hot but France were an ungodly shambles. From an outside perspective with the way their domestic league is saturated with foreign talent I cannot see any way out for them before February.

There is always someone worse off than yourself. The manner of Scotland's defeat was heartbreaking, but who would you rather be a Scottish player or an English player? At least you can (rightly) hold your head up high.

mikey_dragon wrote:Given recent injury news I'm going to have to retract my statement about Wales winning the 2016 Six Nations. We're running out of a team. Anscombe will miss the tournament through being out with an ankle injury, whilst Tyler Morgan has a dislocated shoulder. I didn't even know that they came off injured in the SA game! No news on the others who were already injured - all that I know is that Williams, Webb and Halfpenny will be out for the entire season; if they're lucky they'll make the closing weeks of the season.

Who's going to step up?

That will explain why Hook came off for Morgan as couldn't understand it otherwise, read the report today about his injury but haven't seen anything about Anscombe.

So with them added to the list we now have 1 No9 in Webb, 5 centres in Dixon, Morgan, JD, Sc Williams and Allen, along with 3 wings/fullbacks in Halfpenny, Li Williams and Amos then a utility back in Anscombe, christ that has to be one of the worst injury list going.

Heard reports that Sc Williams will be out for rest of the season, not sure about the rest but seriously who would we be looking at using if all out,as it stands now could anyone come up with an acceptable backline?

Davies
Biggar

North
Roberts
Patchell, Hook, Ben John maybe
Cuthbert, Walker - is he even fit, Prydie

Patchell/Evans/Prydie/Hook

I'm hoping ireland will use these next two seasons for development.i love the 6nations and it's a prize in itself but there needs to be a different approach to the way the game is played to compete with the sh long term so let's see what can be achieved giving youth it's head. I'm not suggesting ditching all the over 30s but the future needs to be addressed now or we will be having the same conversations and regrets every 4years. The players are here now and the current coach is one of the smartest guys around just needs everyone to commit be positive and not let short term pain cloud the future.