Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

Fair enough,agree to disagree

Surely all coaches rely on "individual brilliance" from their players? Surely that is one of the primary reasons they pick their players in the first place? We all want to see our star players break the line or create space or whatever. Schmidt had a game plan and he had players he wished to see do this and to show some of these qualities. They usually didn't succeed. It is hardly as if Fitzgerald ignored what Schmidt wanted and did his own thing. He just succeeded in doing what Schmidt obviously will have wanted his players to do. In fact it has really boosted Fitzgerald's chances for Ireland to show what he has got.

Yet again we would all be hearing about how great the likes of Anthony Foley is for allowing someone like Simon Zebo the freedom to play. When the players show their skills under Schmidt, it has nothing to do with his coaching and the players are actually going against what he wants. Those pesky rebels!

You couldn't make it up!

Rory, that is pretty pathetic from you to be honest. You have always come across as a decent supporter but you always refer back to provincial bias for some reason.

Can you honestly say that Fitz moments of individuality comes from that great coaching book of Schmidt?

Counter the points I made about Irelands failings in their tactics, Schmidt's tactics...

I am saying that Schmidt selects his players so that they can show those moments of individuality within the team. Surely that is obvious. Of course he is going to want his players to break the line and play heads up rugby. There seems to be a stigma with Schmidt that he doesn't want to see this sort of thing or that he isn't coaching his players to do this. Which is completely moronic.

Also, I will refer to provincial bias as it is the same group who are claiming Schmidt is breeding a team of robots, that he doesn't allow flair, or that his tactics don't allow attacking rugby etc. When that dies down I will stop bringing it up, otherwise I am perfectly entitled to counter it.

Rory, you are perfectly entitled to bring up provincial bias but it does look a little sad at times when people are not being provincial biased...

Call my opinions moronic all you like, please do

If you honestly believe that Fitz's moments were down to the Schmidt plan then fairs dues to you brother

I didn't specifically call your opinions moronic Billy, but I do think it is ridiculous for anyone to honestly think that Schmidt doesn't coach his players to make line breaks and then look for support or play heads-up rugby. Fitzgerald did exactly what Schmidt will have wanted him to do. It may not have been a specific set piece move, but that hardly means it was a moment where Fitzgerald decided to ignore the authorities and take the law into his own hands...

Also I don't think it is sad to mention provincial bias, I am clearly not the only one to sense a real bitterness from a few fans regarding Schmidt and his policies. Again I am not specifically talking about yourself, Billy.

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

It seemed to me Ireland weren't executing the gameplan,not having chasers when you kick isn't the gameplan.Why would Schmidt tell the team to stop using a core tactic that has been very successful for them in the last few years.

Schmidt does have a plan on how to play matches and I am 100% certain it doesn't involve his halfbacks using boxkicks and Garryowens with no chase.

That was the original game plan, the fact that Bowe went off and no-one was chasing was amazingly poor. I am saying, why was Schmidt not relaying messages to the team to either tell them to stop the kick game plan with Irelands most effective chaser off or assign someone else the Bowe role of chasing kicks?

This went on far too long for him not to intervene in my opinion or he had no other idea as to how to get Ireland to change or adjust their tactics.

Yea I mean why didn't he call a time out and get the guys in a huddle!

Sure if Deccie would have been coach he'd have been the field chasing kicks himself! Bloody Kiwis eh - god forbid they players themselves would be left to make decisions and play the game themselves.

rodders wrote:

Yea I mean why didn't he call a time out and get the guys in a huddle!

Sure if Deccie would have been coach he'd have been the field chasing kicks himself! Bloody Kiwis eh - god forbid they players themselves would be left to make decisions and play the game themselves.  

You know these days they have radios and are able to relay messages to players on field rodders, they also have half time team talks. This concept may surprise you but believe me, it does happen  

Not sure what Kidney has to do with Schmidt being unable to change tactics mid game for this Ireland side?

What does surprise me is people keep telling me that Schmidt makes the plans in such fine detail and co-ordinates them brilliantly and expects the players to follow everything to his fine detail but when it goes horribly wrong, its all down to the players and he walks away scott free... He really is Saint Joe to some

Saint Joe said to his players before the Argentine game:  "Due to public pressure coming from social media forums (and that nuthouse 606v2) I am willing to forgo my usual micro-management style for this one game.  You will be allowed read the game as it happens and react instinctively and creatively to what's happening around you.  Feel free to attack if and when you feel the urge and trust to your own innate abilities....... good luck.  After you win this game I'm afraid it's back to my methods after that, as the semis and the final will be too important to experiment with"


Hmmmmmmmmmm....................  Saint Joe picks the wrong time to please Sin is perhaps the moral of the story??

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also I don't think it is sad to mention provincial bias, I am clearly not the only one to sense a real bitterness from a few fans regarding Schmidt and his policies. Again I am not specifically talking about yourself, Billy.

I think a lot of posters here solely look for Bias in every post. Its become so poor that people cant post real concerns and valid points without getting provincial bias thrust down our throats. I personally have not shown any provincial bias and don't believe others are so bad. They simply become defensive as their opinions are simply shot down without even having them considered due to accusations of provincial bias. That in my mind is sad.

So you think statements such as: Leinster players are lazy and therefore do not get injured as much as other players, Schmidt wants to coach attacking instincts out of his players, Schmidt doesn't allow offloading or expansive rugby, Schmidt and Carlos, Schmidt and Zebo, Stringer says/ROG says/Simon says etc are viable statements? You really don't see any potential provincial bitterness hidden in there?

I think you should read the thread again if you think it is unfair to point this out as what it is; bitter ramblings. Schmidt has been rightly criticised for what has been a disappointing campaign and everyone acknowledges he will need to improve in order for us to be competitive, but some of the above arguments are just ridiculous and not even worth debating properly.

SecretFly wrote:Saint Joe said to his players before the Argentine game:  "Due to public pressure coming from social media forums (and that nuthouse 606v2) I am willing to forgo my usual micro-management style for this one game.  You will be allowed read the game as it happens and react instinctively and creatively to what's happening around you.  Feel free to attack if and when you feel the urge and trust to your own innate abilities....... good luck.  After you win this game I'm afraid it's back to my methods after that, as the semis and the final will be too important to experiment with"


Hmmmmmmmmmm....................  Saint Joe picks the wrong time to please Sin is perhaps the moral of the story??

That is about as realistic as some would believe on here.

Well Rory, I have read and there has been provincial bias, not denying that but it gets very tiresome when it is constantly dragged out. You want me to reread this thread, you yourself only have to reread this page and see where rodders has done this to me without any provocation of provincial bias...

Poor Joe and Sam Burgess - the victims of the outrageous arrows of jealousy and under appreciation.

Both will surely be welcomed at the pearly gates when the big man calls them home.

Marshes wrote:

Also Marmion is back playing well at Connacht, but needs a bit of consistency now to push on, Cooney was first choice at the end of last season and playing really well. I think we should be looking past Boss and Reddan.

Cooney is a very solid player and started last night but like you, I feel Marmion has to up the intensity and consistency and make that shirt his own. It was interesting to see Henshaw playing fullback last night, ran some very good lines from 15.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So you think statements such as: Leinster players are lazy and therefore do not get injured as much as other players, Schmidt wants to coach attacking instincts out of his players, Schmidt doesn't allow offloading or expansive rugby, Schmidt and Carlos, Schmidt and Zebo, Stringer says/ROG says/Simon says etc are viable statements? You really don't see any potential provincial bitterness hidden in there?

I think you should read the thread again if you think it is unfair to point this out as what it is; bitter ramblings. Schmidt has been rightly criticised for what has been a disappointing campaign and everyone acknowledges he will need to improve in order for us to be competitive, but some of the above arguments are just ridiculous and not even worth debating properly.

Rob Penney said that on twitter during the warm-up games about Zebo. Something like, 'Zeebs can play, too many putting the brakes on him.'

Schmidt won't let his players take any chance in case of making a mistake - his coaching philosophy is safety first. And his players don't want to risk his wrath at the video session.

Like I said, Fitz doesn't listen to Schmidt.  So why does Zebo?

It would appear from the constant arguments here that Zebo doesn't seem to be able to concentrate on two activities at once.  It's either bedding down to defensive duties and mind fully fixed on that or staying out of the wing and wanting to attack and jink and goosestep for the full 80.

Now the old saying of not being able to be in two places at once might have a grain of truth to it, but you simply can't attack unless you have the ball; and in International at the highest level, the backs have to help get it by ye olde ruck resourcing.... lending their energy to gain and keep the ball.

It's not rocket science.  We're nowhere near good enough to have the ability to keep wings on the wing, clean and tidy, waiting for the over-worked forwards and centres to do the dirty work for them and give them the perfect escape-velocity pass.

eirebilly wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Also Marmion is back playing well at Connacht, but needs a bit of consistency now to push on, Cooney was first choice at the end of last season and playing really well. I think we should be looking past Boss and Reddan.

Cooney is a very solid player and started last night but like you, I feel Marmion has to up the intensity and consistency and make that shirt his own. It was interesting to see Henshaw playing fullback last night, ran some very good lines from 15.

This is why I do not think Henshaw is a 12 and I would actually prefer to see him at fullback if he isn't going to be played at 13. Give him a little more space and time on the ball and he will cut some superb running lines. He would be absolutely brilliant outside players with good vision and distribution skills, rather than being the playmaker himself.

Perhaps he will play at fullback more often for Connacht than we think? I was expecting to see Aki at inside centre and Henshaw outside him, but maybe Pat Lam would rather keep the in-form Aki at 13?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:This is why I do not think Henshaw is a 12 and I would actually prefer to see him at fullback if he isn't going to be played at 13. Give him a little more space and time on the ball and he will cut some superb running lines. He would be absolutely brilliant outside players with good vision and distribution skills, rather than being the playmaker himself.

Imagine Olding and Payne in the centres with Henshaw at 15 cutting lines off them. Sexshy, sexshy rugby

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Also Marmion is back playing well at Connacht, but needs a bit of consistency now to push on, Cooney was first choice at the end of last season and playing really well. I think we should be looking past Boss and Reddan.

Cooney is a very solid player and started last night but like you, I feel Marmion has to up the intensity and consistency and make that shirt his own. It was interesting to see Henshaw playing fullback last night, ran some very good lines from 15.

This is why I do not think Henshaw is a 12 and I would actually prefer to see him at fullback if he isn't going to be played at 13. Give him a little more space and time on the ball and he will cut some superb running lines. He would be absolutely brilliant outside players with good vision and distribution skills, rather than being the playmaker himself.

Perhaps he will play at fullback more often for Connacht than we think? I was expecting to see Aki at inside centre and Henshaw outside him, but maybe Pat Lam would rather keep the in-form Aki at 13?

Aki and Ronaldson playing really well at the minute, although so was Tiernan O Halloran at 15 as well so surprised to see him moved, Connacht finally have some decent competition for positions Henshaw is not a 12 even though he has never let himself down there for Ireland, but I hope we see more of him at 13 and Payne at 15. That for me is the best use of options. See plenty of Henshaw at 13 for Connacht and he does have those diistribution skills when he is playing the right position. For that to happen though we needs someone to take hold of the 12 jersey and make it theirs.

Marshes wrote:

Aki and Ronaldson playing really well at the minute, although so was Tiernan O Halloran at 15 as well so surprised to see him moved, Connacht finally have some decent competition for positions    Henshaw is not a 12 even though he has never let himself down there for Ireland, but I hope we see more of him at 13 and Payne at 15. That for me is the best use of options. See plenty of Henshaw at 13 for Connacht and he does have those diistribution skills when he is playing the right position. For that to happen though we needs someone to take hold of the 12 jersey and make it theirs.

Jaysus, careful what you say there... You may be accused of having no clue about rugby (or a hater)

Henshaw is the future 13 for Ireland and I honestly don't want to see him played too much at 15 to be honest. Ireland need to develop specialists and Henshaw is the closest to a specialist 13 Ireland have.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:This is why I do not think Henshaw is a 12 and I would actually prefer to see him at fullback if he isn't going to be played at 13. Give him a little more space and time on the ball and he will cut some superb running lines. He would be absolutely brilliant outside players with good vision and distribution skills, rather than being the playmaker himself.

Imagine Olding and Payne in the centres with Henshaw at 15 cutting lines off them. Sexshy, sexshy rugby

To be honest I am clinging onto the hope that Stuart Olding will get back to full fitness and get the starting shirt at 12. Anyone will look good outside him.

eirebilly wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Aki and Ronaldson playing really well at the minute, although so was Tiernan O Halloran at 15 as well so surprised to see him moved, Connacht finally have some decent competition for positions    Henshaw is not a 12 even though he has never let himself down there for Ireland, but I hope we see more of him at 13 and Payne at 15. That for me is the best use of options. See plenty of Henshaw at 13 for Connacht and he does have those diistribution skills when he is playing the right position. For that to happen though we needs someone to take hold of the 12 jersey and make it theirs.

Jaysus, careful what you say there... You may be accused of having no clue about rugby (or a hater)

Henshaw is the future 13 for Ireland and I honestly don't want to see him played too much at 15 to be honest. Ireland need to develop specialists and Henshaw is the closest to a specialist 13 Ireland have.

Garry Ringrose could put an awful lot of pressure on Henshaw at 13.

SecretFly wrote:Like I said, Fitz doesn't listen to Schmidt.  So why does Zebo?

Fitz just about makes the bench Zebo is behind him though as he can't even do that.

What about olding at 15. The few times he played there he looked class

And isit just a coincidence that the provinces seem to be throwing a lot of the young lads into the team at the moment?

carpet baboon wrote:What about olding at 15. The few times he played there he looked class

He'd need to be there full time for Ulster to work on his positional play/aerial game and his kicking from fullback too. Can't see it happening; I mean, if it was a case that it was definitely going to be his best position I'd be all for making it happen on the basis that Ireland comes first, but he's very good at 12 and we do need players coming through there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Garry Ringrose could put an awful lot of pressure on Henshaw at 13.

Possibly in the future but right now Henshaw is the best that Ireland have. I have no concerns over the centres for Ireland going forward ass there is more than enough strength in depth there. I am more worried about the lack of depth at 10, 15 and wingers.

At fullback we have Kearney who I believe is a poor last man defender so I would have Payne there (Felix is a big loss to retirement). People say Zebo but I see him more as a left winger who can cover 15 only in an emergency.

10 is a major issue for me, there is such a drop off after Sexton and I feel Madigan will be converted into more of a utility back so he is not an option for me plus I feel that Sexton may be close to the end of his career should he receive another head knock.

I said earlier that I believe that Irelands best option at 10 is Jackson but for him to progress, I feel that ROG has to be a part of the coaching setup (possibly at Ulster). His experience and kicking coaching abilities will bring Jackson on and he, to me, is the future.

I honestly think Paddy Jackson is more than capable, his only weakness is his goal kicking. In fact I would go as far to say he is the best option we could look at if we want to play an expansive game. It would be interesting if we could have a few goal kicking options apart from him - what goal kickers do we have who could play elsewhere? Olding? Ringrose? Any others?

There are not many other goal kicking options right now Rory which is a bit sad. Its something that has bugged me for a while. I have never liked having to rely on a 10 for kicking options and have always felt that two kickers in a team works (look at Wales).

Jackson is more than capable now but I would like to see a proper kicking coach to bring him along both Tactically and Goal wise and for me, ROG is the man for the job.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Aki and Ronaldson playing really well at the minute, although so was Tiernan O Halloran at 15 as well so surprised to see him moved, Connacht finally have some decent competition for positions    Henshaw is not a 12 even though he has never let himself down there for Ireland, but I hope we see more of him at 13 and Payne at 15. That for me is the best use of options. See plenty of Henshaw at 13 for Connacht and he does have those diistribution skills when he is playing the right position. For that to happen though we needs someone to take hold of the 12 jersey and make it theirs.

Jaysus, careful what you say there... You may be accused of having no clue about rugby (or a hater)

Henshaw is the future 13 for Ireland and I honestly don't want to see him played too much at 15 to be honest. Ireland need to develop specialists and Henshaw is the closest to a specialist 13 Ireland have.

Garry Ringrose could put an awful lot of pressure on Henshaw at 13.

Looking at Ringrose for Leinster he looks a couple of years away physically, as classy as he is  - in fact he looks better on the wing at senior level.

McCloskey and Henshaw is the ticket in midfield when king Payne hangs up his boots.

rodders wrote:

McCloskey and Henshaw is the ticket in midfield when king Payne hangs up his boots.

Serious question rodders. Why wait with moving Henshaw to 13? I honestly see him as the best 13 Ireland currently have in the offering. Payne, to me, would be the perfect 15 for Ireland going forward.

eirebilly wrote:There are not many other goal kicking options right now Rory which is a bit sad. Its something that has bugged me for a while. I have never liked having to rely on a 10 for kicking options and have always felt that two kickers in a team works (look at Wales).

Jackson is more than capable now but I would like to see a proper kicking coach to bring him along both Tactically and Goal wise and for me, ROG is the man for the job.

Dave Alred coaches Jackson (& a few others as well). It would be a backward step for ROG in his coaching career to just become a kicking coach.

Giving the kicking responsibility to someone other than the outhalf isn't a great idea as it ties a couple of positions down with must picks. If you had to go down that route, it probably would work if you had all the half-backs (starting and bench) kicking options as they are very specialist positions anyway.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

McCloskey and Henshaw is the ticket in midfield when king Payne hangs up his boots.

Serious question rodders. Why wait with moving Henshaw to 13? I honestly see him as the best 13 Ireland currently have in the offering. Payne, to me, would be the perfect 15 for Ireland going forward.

Because he has all the attributes (including physicality) to be a great 12 as well - why move him out? He is far more valuable to the team at 12 (and himself as well as there are not that many great 12s around).

His skill set is clearly best utilised further outfield. He may be physical enough, but Ireland would be far better served with a playmaker at 12 who can release the outside backs. Henshaw is not that sort of player, and he is far more dangerous in the wider channels. He is a good distributor and possesses a good offloading game, but I'm not sure he is has the decision making skills and timing that is needed at 12. I think as long as he is played at 12 we are going to be rather one dimensional. Plus as I have said plenty of times I feel like it is a waste of his talents anyway.

If you want a real physical option at 12 then Stuart McCloskey is the better option, it is as simple as that. He would immediately improve our midfield if that is the sort of style we are looking to play. He is bigger and more robust than Henshaw, he has a very good offloading game and his decision making skills look very good so far.

However it was a very good decision by Schmidt to play Henshaw at 12 last year, because at that time every other option was injured, too old (D'Arcy) or very inexperienced, and we had very little to work with in the midfield. Henshaw has done very well there, but I think if we are looking forward to a more expansive game then Henshaw needs to go back to playing where he is best. Hopefully the other options at 12 will be putting their hands up, which McCloskey is already doing.

Sin é wrote:
Because he has all the attributes (including physicality) to be a great 12 as well - why move him out? He is far more valuable to the team at 12 (and himself as well as there are not that many great 12s around).

So who would you have at 13 right now then?

I know you will say Earls and I would be happy with that but I feel Earls would be better deployed on the wing.

Jared Payne, obviously. We want to play a more expansive game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Jared Payne, obviously. We want to play a more expansive game.

Payne and expansive game ... The only expansion Payne brings in attack is sideways running dragging defenders out wide...

Payne is needed at 15 where his running lines will have more impact and his one on one defensive skills will be very much in need.

One of the main attributes Jared Payne is constantly praised for by his fellow teammates, coaches and fans is his ability to play heads up rugby with great awareness of those around him. He would also be one of the few with the distribution game and offloading skills required.

The fact that some of you think Keith Earls is the better 13 for expansive rugby speaks for itself.

Seriously though, that is the last thing I am going to say about it... talk about going round in circles. Keith Earls vs Jared Payne is just becoming a bit of a running gag now, isn't it? Clearly I have nothing to do right now or I wouldn't be getting involved in this silly debate.

I am sorry and I mean no offence Rory but Payne is not an expansive rugby playing 13. He is an excellent defensive 13 and the lines he runs screams 15 to me which is why I would prefer to have him playing there and not at 13.

How people see him as a great distributer and offloader at international level is beyond me. He actually made more mistakes in his RWC matches than Earls did at 13 and Earls certainly broke the line more than he did.

Anyways, Earls aside as I feel he is a better winger than centre, Henshaw for 13 all the way for me.

No offence taken at all Billy - there is nothing personal in these debates, I enjoy the discussions and think you have brought a lot to these boards on your return. Things were quiet from the Munster end for a while there.

Funnily enough Earls had a great defensive game last night at OC. Looked very solid and lead the defensive line well

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One of the main attributes Jared Payne is constantly praised for by his fellow teammates, coaches and fans is his ability to play heads up rugby with great awareness of those around him. He would also be one of the few with the distribution game and offloading skills required.

The fact that some of you think Keith Earls is the better 13 for expansive rugby speaks for itself.

No, he isn't constantly praised by his team mates and coaches. No one said a thing about him until the fans started saying out blunt Ireland's attack was and coaches & team mates circled the wagons and came out to defend him.

Not all praise is covered by the media. Plus he received a lot of praise for his abilities at 13 for the Blues.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not all praise is covered by the media. Plus he received a lot of praise for his abilities at 13 for the Blues.

No one said anything until Matt Williams criticised him.

14 Oct: "He’s making really poor decisions. He’s kicking the ball all the time and he’s kicking very badly. He’s not making breaks. He’s running across field."

Fellow analysts and former Ireland internationals Keith Wood and Peter Stringer voiced their agreement with Williams but current team mate Tommy Bowe defended his fellow Ulsterman.

"He is just so consistent, his communication is very good from a defensive point of view and he is probably one of the best passers of the ball in the squad.

”

Joe.ie wrote:In his year, including 10 Test matches, with Ireland, Payne proved a divisive figure.

He was, depending on your viewpoint, either the smartest player in the Irish backline and the fulcrum of everything Joe Schmidt was working towards, or a diligently dull option who kicked away possession.

For my part, Payne is an outstanding fullback and a competent, brave outside centre. He has more attacking weapons in his arsenal but sheathed them as that was not what Schmidt wanted.

I think both sides seem fairly entrenched in their positions on Earl or Payne at 13, I can't see any hearts or minds being changed. Can I ask Ulster supporters if they would prefer Payne at 15 if Henshaw was 13 and one of McCloskey/Olding/Cave (or any other strong candidate) came in at 12, or is he our best 13 and should remain there? I think Payne has been strong in the 13 shirt, but his best position has to be at the back. Would love him to put pressure on Kearney for the 15 shirt.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One of the main attributes Jared Payne is constantly praised for by his fellow teammates, coaches and fans is his ability to play heads up rugby with great awareness of those around him. He would also be one of the few with the distribution game and offloading skills required.

The fact that some of you think Keith Earls is the better 13 for expansive rugby speaks for itself.

No, he isn't constantly praised by his team mates and coaches. No one said a thing about him until the fans started saying out blunt Ireland's attack was and coaches & team mates circled the wagons and came out to defend him.

Well that's bull. In case you didn't notice he was here for three years before he even pulled on a green shirt and after his initial injury his teammates have been saying it the whole time.