England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

I think if they can get the core players back to form...you wont see a hugely different team.

But there will be a change in what players are asked to do.

I honestly think it'll be something like this...

1 Marler
2 George
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Kruis
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic
8 Billy V

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Barritt
13 JJ
14 Watson
15 Brown

Its a solid foundation, and has a lot of familiarity.

From there he can start to tweak the changes as he sees the performances.

Ie If Mako looks more influential than Marler etc he can make that call.
Is Barritt a waste at 12 over a younger inexperienced player

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Barritt a waste at 12 over a younger inexperienced player

I have read a couple of reporters from different broadsheets suggesting Owen Farrell may be used at 12. I sincerely hope they are wrong.

I really hope we see neither tbh. In some ways though I think I'd prefer Farrell

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Barritt a waste at 12 over a younger inexperienced player

I have read a couple of reporters from different broadsheets suggesting Owen Farrell may be used at 12. I sincerely hope they are wrong.

I've read the same thing. I sincerely hope EJ doesn't start his England coaching career like that.

The only reason I can think of playing Farrell at 12 would be to support a weaker defender like Ford at 10. But since Ford is currently playing himself out of an England shirt, there shouldn't be any discussion of Farrell at 12 because he'll be needed at 10! (with Cips on the bench, for me)

I think we're starting off on a bad footing if we immediately think a defensive solid 12 is needed.

Would people be happy to see Eastmond start at 12 if Farrell was at 10?

Noto Eastmond; I would prefer Barritt. I really don't want Barritt.

Ah right...who would be your choice 7.5

Incidentally ive seen yet more calls for Beaumont to be in the squad. Someone even suggested at 6...as a "heavier version of Croft" ??

Im not sure hes been at a consistently good enough level for that.

Twelvetrees. Still the best option overall, while we wait patiently for Slade to get fit or devoto/Stephenson to get games. Hill is an option but then I think we'd still need to bring in Goode for the extra playmaker (again unless Joseph can really step up which I'm not sure he can) which I'd want to avoid.

Not sure Beaumont is good enough to be honest, never seen him play 6 but he does strike me as a bit of a 'Croft' 6.

As you said GF it probably won't be a very different team against Scotland.

If Farrells at 12 it'll be because we're looking for an extra kicker, probably because JJ will be at 13 and Brown at 15. I'd start Faz at 10 personally and play Burrell, but I can understand why not as burrells in poor form.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Twelvetrees. Still the best option overall, while we wait patiently for Slade to get fit or devoto/Stephenson to get games. Hill is an option but then I think we'd still need to bring in Goode for the extra playmaker (again unless Joseph can really step up which I'm not sure he can) which I'd want to avoid.

Not sure Beaumont is good enough to be honest, never seen him play 6 but he does strike me as a bit of a 'Croft' 6.

As maligned as he is, I would also stick with 36 for the 6N in light of the injuries.

And before beshocked resurfaces it's not because I think he's amazing, just plugging the gap!

And I don't want to see Goode again for England no matter how brilliant his AP form is (and it often is)

Don't ever want to see him slowly running the ball back from full back again, jinking one way then the other then into the smallest guy from the other team who puts him on his back.

When is the squad announced? I can't seem to find that info via a quick google.

Wednesday 13th apparently

Next week, saracens are just talking to Prem Rugby about buying a second squad so the 1st team can go play in the 6Ns...

yappysnap wrote:Next week, saracens are just talking to Prem Rugby about buying a second squad so the 1st team can go play in the 6Ns...

Someone in the Guardian was talking about Du Plessis (a young 35 yrs old!) being an option for TH....

I would go with
1) Vunipola
2) George
3) ? Thomas (Maybe)
4) Kruis
5) Launchbury
6) Robshaw
7) Kvesic
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Cips
11) Nowell
12) Farrell
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Hartley/Youngs
17) Mullan/Marler
18) Cole
19) Itojie
20) Morgan
21) Care
22) Ford
23) Roko

yappysnap wrote:Next week, saracens are just talking to Prem Rugby about buying a second squad so the 1st team can go play in the 6Ns...

Surely they will just go ahead and then bully the other teams after the event.

I really don't want to go down the "Farrell at 12" route again. Don't get me wrong, I like Farrell, and would be quite tempted to start him against Scotland given current form, but he's a 10, not a 12.

My starting 23 would look something like this

Vunipola - don't see what more he can do, has been in very good form this season with strong carrying, Sarries scrum has been dominant throughout.
George - see Vunipola. Good thrower, strong scrummager, strong carries, has ousted Brits at Sarries and must be given his chance for England.
Cole - lack of very good options here with Brookes injured when in form. Thomas hasn't been doing that well recently. Neither has Cole really (munched by Sarries, despite Vunipola being unable to scrummage according to some ), but he has the experience, and hope he'll come good with better support.
Launchbury and Kruis in the engine room. Kruis has been terrific this season, has really stepped up a level and has been calling the Sarries line-out very efficiently. Launchbury is an all-round fine lock.
Robshaw - stand-out blindside this season IMO. Think switching flanks could help him, and let's not forget prior to the RWC he was arguably England's most consistently high performer over the previous four years.
Kvesic - just edges out Fraser, I think he has that X-factor about him.
Vunipola - another who's been in very good form this season, one of the biggest factor in England's WC failure was losing him vs Wales.
Care Farrell - both in form, a partnership that worked really well in 2014 (when both were in form), let's give it another chance to shine.
Hill Joseph - I reckon this partnership could work, but England desperately need to find the right balance in the centres.
Nowell Watson Brown - Goode has been playing very well, but I think Brown's fighting spirit is a must, and to me he has that extra bit of quality at international level.

Marler
Hartley
Thomas
Itoje
Morgan
Youngs
Ford
Goode

Harsh to ctitise Cole when he's propping alongside Thacker, the smallest hooker I've seen for a long time at 5'8" and 80kg. What could he possibly bring to scrum up against George?

Is he only 80kgs? That's too light for a prem hooker!

lostinwales wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Next week, saracens are just talking to Prem Rugby about buying a second squad so the 1st team can go play in the 6Ns...

Someone in the Guardian was talking about Du Plessis (a young 35 yrs old South African!) being an option for TH....

That's better.....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Pooly,

Would that be the case if (won't happen am sure) you were to finish bottom.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Pooly,

Would that be the case if (won't happen am sure) you were to finish bottom.

If we played well, we wouldn't finish bottom BW. If we finish 3rd and implement a strong game plan with improving performances I wouldn't be overly concerned.

Do you think he will, in the main stick with what he has for now or shake it up from the start?

I would get very depressed if we see Twelvetrees or Farrell at 12, and not totally excited about Barritt or Burrell. Though at least, Burrell did play last season and overall England were not terrible.

If Ford were at 10, Burrell is at least an option, if Farrell at 10 then again what about Eastmond because at least there is some balance.

Also not enamoured with the concept or the need for another 'playmaker'.  Has it ever worked?

I think he'll mostly stick with the norm...the odd change..Jamie George etc.

But change their individual game roles.

Well we've generally played better overall when we've had a playmaker. Eastmond was a bit of a disaster when he's had the chance and Twelvetrees looked a step up on Burrell everytime he came on last year at 12.

Ford and Burrell

On current form EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Get over it Eastmond was not a disaster when he played he had a decent first game V the All blacks then got exposed the game after.

But then that was against the All Blacks he should never have been dropped for the 3rd test imo.

and 36 has been poor for England he isn't anywhere near consistent enough and he acts like he is a line breaker (which he isn't_

He was decent in the first game, then a disaster subbed at half time when he was badly exposed then another chance in the AIs where he was very bad again. Despite his criticism Twelvetrees has been pretty average but offering a better skill set than Barritt and Burrell who have been average as well.

36 does good things and bad things but at least he does sometimes do the good. We seldom get to hear much good about his performances for Gloucester these days though.

He wasn't that much of a disaster 2nd test Lancater just bottled it. more experianced 12's have looked more exposed against the likes of Cruden and Nonu.

Sorry but Twelvetrees is Average with a better kicking game that is it.

His skill set isn't that great how many time has he cost glous a try in a key game by just not giving it a simple extra pass or going for the massive miss pass.

Twelvetrees had so much potential, but at glous he was considered there big back (which in their backline he is prob a big back) and he now plays too much like he thinks he is one.

He really was terrible. They just walked through him all half.

Yup I totally agree with your comment on Twelvetrees.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is he only 80kgs? That's too light for a prem hooker!

Official weight is 94kg. Having chatted with him a few weeks ago I can just about accept that as he is built like a little brick outhouse, but as the only way he meets the official height of 5ft8 is in cuban heels (I'm about 5-10, and my eye line was above the top of his head), he may really be 90kg.

When you also realise that Logo came on at the same time as Cole and was unable to stop Du Plessis boring in on Thacker, this m,eant that Cole was being two-timed by George and Mako. In top form he would have struggled with that.

Clubs are renowned for over doing it with the "official weights". I've seen him down as 80kg.

http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/Leicester-Tigers-hooker-Harry-Thacker-small-s/story-26687142-detail/story.html

Looking at him, I'd guess he's more lower 80's. Too small in height and weight for a hooker these days.

Ah so we've moved on from Youngs to Thacker now.

Pooly why do you hate small hookers? What have they done to you?

Get off your high horse Yappy.

I like Thacker, he has a good skill set but it's hard to accommodate him in the front row, which is a shame as if he was bigger he'd be a great player. I don't like Youngs because he can't throw.

cb wrote:Also not enamoured with the concept or the need for another 'playmaker'.  Has it ever worked?

Wilkinson - Greenwood - Catt. 3 playmakers, all of whom played 10 as schoolboys and two of whom played 10 internationally.

The ideal 12 is big enough to stop Nonu or Roberts, and skilled enough to play 10 at a pinch. The real frustration is that Twelvetrees fits that bill perfectly on paper but for some reason doesn't perform consistently at international level. It often looks like he's trying too hard. Someone needs to work on his head - if Eddie can do it then he'd be worth his salary in an instant.

The best alternative I can think of is to encourage Slade to work hard on his fitness and strength while he's out, and try to add a few pounds. He's a little light for international rugby at 12 but with a shade more ballast has everything you'd want. Every indication is that he has the mind of a test player.

As an aside, I don't know why people keep raising the idea of Manu at 12. It's the obvious way to keep Joseph and Manu in the same team - but it would be useless unless Manu can get the ball to Joseph, and I've not seen anything to suggest he has the distribution skills needed for 12.

Poorfour wrote:

cb wrote:Also not enamoured with the concept or the need for another 'playmaker'.  Has it ever worked?

Wilkinson - Greenwood - Catt. 3 playmakers, all of whom played 10 as schoolboys and two of whom played 10 internationally.

The ideal 12 is big enough to stop Nonu or Roberts, and skilled enough to play 10 at a pinch. The real frustration is that Twelvetrees fits that bill perfectly on paper but for some reason doesn't perform consistently at international level. It often looks like he's trying too hard. Someone needs to work on his head - if Eddie can do it then he'd be worth his salary in an instant.

The best alternative I can think of is to encourage Slade to work hard on his fitness and strength while he's out, and try to add a few pounds. He's a little light for international rugby at 12 but with a shade more ballast has everything you'd want. Every indication is that he has the mind of a test player.

As an aside, I don't know why people keep raising the idea of Manu at 12. It's the obvious way to keep Joseph and Manu in the same team - but it would be useless unless Manu can get the ball to Joseph, and I've not seen anything to suggest he has the distribution skills needed for 12.

I know what you mean about Manu but he can pass, especially if he learns to trust where the guy outside will be. To be honest though we have in the past tended to use the 12 as a battering ram or as a dummy runner with the pass going straight to 13. Passing skills haven't always been needed too much at 12 (see Burrell last year)

And on the bright side, it might save Manu running into every other ruck as the most pointless "protector" and actually get his hands on the ball.

Not that he should be considered before the summer though

BamBam wrote:And on the bright side, it might save Manu running into every other ruck as the most pointless "protector" and actually get his hands on the ball.

Not that he should be considered before the summer though

Forgot about that. Drove me nuts seeing him tied up in rucks when he could be waiting for the pass behind them

I thought Hartley was the next in line to be skipper, so if he can get a game or two under his belt will be the starting hooker, regardless of George's potential.  So I think we will see a front row of Mako  - we need to see if his scrummaging has improved as much as it seems this season; Hartley - confrontational skipper!; and Cole - due to lack of alternatives.

I am not a massive fan of Kruis - I would rather have Itoje as I think he has the greater long term potential, but Kruis is the form second row (admittedly in a form Saracens pack); Launchbury (one of the first names on the sheet). Billy at 8, Kvesic at 7 and Robshaw at 6 (for now).

I would go Youngs, Cipriani, Joseph, Daly, Watson, Nowell and Brown.  It is always a 50:50 choice between Youngs and Care, but I thought Youngs was one of our brighter players in the world cup (with Billy).  For me Cipriani is the most in form all round 10 available - he doesn't tackle or kick as well as Farrell, but I just think Farrell is too limited a player to be a top international 10.  People may wince at a Joseph and Daly combination in the centres, but I don't see the point of picking a player who has been tried before and not nailed the spot down - Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt, Eastmond, etc.  BOD and D'Arcy weren't the biggest centre combination in world rugby, but were pretty successful.  Neither do I agree with the fixation we seem to have with a 'second playmaker' in the centres.  Daly has a useful boot on him if required.

Subs would be Marler, George and Thomas - a fairly useful front row set of subs to come on.  Itoje, Morgan, Care, Farrell (utility value) and Yarde (bit of x factor).

And I agree with Sgt_Pooly - performance and ambition is more important than where we finish in the 6Ns table. If we get the performances right, the results will fall into line.

If you could put Thacker's ability in a body that is the size of say Hartley's he would be the most complete Hooker in England.

Will Greenwood has waded in with a few wild card picks:

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/10119463/greenwood-5-england-must-picks-ahead-of-six-nations

Sale winger Will Addison and teammate and full-back Mike Haley are two names to really watch. But with Henry Slade injured, the 12 slot is up for grabs.

I'm a big fan of Ollie Devoto. He gave away a daft penalty at the weekend but he's about as close as I can get to a Slade. The problem is that Bath's form is depriving him of the platform he needs to show his cards.

Exeter's Will Chudley is in the scrum-half mix and the other one that everyone will be talking about, in the absence of the injured Kieran Brookes, is Paul Hill, the Northampton tight-head.

I think he can apply pressure to Cole and David Wilson. I'm backing Luke Wallace to be the out-and-out No 7. While Tommy Taylor, the hooker at Sale, could be one to watch along with Dave Ward of Harlequins who occupies the same position.

I think Greenwood is losing the plot.

Addison, Haley, Chudley & Wallace??? They'd be lucky to make a squad of 100.

Bit harsh on Wallace. He's a very good breakdown operator. Doesn't have so much of an attacking game that I've seen but he could slot in and do a job. Probably a Saxons level player generally.

I think his technique at the breakdown is pretty poor tbh, he just puts his hands on the deck past the player thus not supporting his own weight.

I don't think he'll get anywhere near an England squad anytime soon.