Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

Marshes wrote:I think both sides seem fairly entrenched in their positions on Earl or Payne at 13, I can't see any hearts or minds being changed. Can I ask Ulster supporters if they would prefer Payne at 15 if Henshaw was 13 and one of McCloskey/Olding/Cave (or any other strong candidate) came in at 12, or is he our best 13 and should remain there? I think Payne has been strong in the 13 shirt, but his best position has to be at the back. Would love him to put pressure on Kearney for the 15 shirt.

I would prefer Henshaw at 13 as soon as we have a 12 ready to take over from him. Thats just a long-term succession thing. Payne is older, might be marginally better now sure, but Henshaw will be in this Irish team for the rest of his career so let's show confidence in him and develop him as our first choice, whether its at 12 or 13. Nurture Henshaws talent properly and he will surely surpass Payne in the long-run. Payne is a better 13 than a 15; if the game was just about attack you wouldn't say that but as a defender he's better at 13. In attack at 13 he is criminally underrated by some and no-one we have actually surpasses him there so it's not a case of just having him into organise the back line and tackle- if we want to play a more expansive game, he has the best range of passing of any of our centres and the best offloading game. At 15 he will have more time on the ball and of course show more of his creative play as a result but it's the aerial game that lets him down. He wouldn't be as good at winning those 50/50 balls as we have become accustomed to with our long tradition of quality fullbacks. I think he's great in attack at 15, better than any other fullback we have, but I feel we're going to see a drop-off in fielding from, say, Kearney. The question is whether Kearney can sort out his attacking game and at what point does his lack of class in attack justify a player like Payne coming in in spite of his lack of authority in the air. But if Henshaw comes into 13 I would use Payne as backup to him, not as a starter somewhere else. Essentially Payne is a stopgap and its up to guys like Olding and McCloskey to make him redundant.

But I can't see anyone replacing Henshaw at 12 for this coming Six Nations and I really strongly feel Payne and Henshaw are the only two players in Ireland with the requisite quality to play outside centre at test level. Cave has the game intelligence and offloading, doesn't have any real power or pace. Earls has the physical attributes but is an individual talent in a role which is really at heart about making the players around you look good- I don't even think he should be in this conversation as if he is left on the wing he can be one of the very best in Europe. Earls at 13 reminds me of people saying Bowe should play centre, or Ferris in the second row, or Wallace at 10... just leave a player in the position where they are best and watch them blossom. Don't mess them around. With everyone fit Earls has to start on the wing; ahead of Trimble, Bowe whoever- he's just the most dangerous finisher we have. Have a grafter like Trimble on the wing opposite him and you'll have great balance. If that finishing ability is wasted with him running into contact at 13 I will just be so frustrated. Anyway, I'm rambling now.

I'm not sure what Ireland team I've been watching over the past two years if Payne is our best centre... Henshaw is streets ahead of him (and Earls for that matter).

theslosty wrote:I'm not sure what Ireland team I've been watching over the past two years if Payne is our best centre... Henshaw is streets ahead of him (and Earls for that matter).

I agree with you that in that I'm also not sure what Ireland team you've been watching

I don't think that Payne has let himself or the team down at 13 as his role was that of a defensive safety first role. That said, I do not see him as being a very attacking 13 or that of a 13 who will bring more expanse to the backline, to me that will come with having a play making 12 (Cave or Olding) with Henshaw at 13.

I am wanting to see Payne at 15 as I do believe that he is solid under the high ball, his defensive awareness and ability is streaks ahead of Kearney's and he would be a much better counter attacker from 15 in my opinion.

Given a one on one, who would you rather see defending the back Kearney or Payne? In my mind, its Payne all day.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One of the main attributes Jared Payne is constantly praised for by his fellow teammates, coaches and fans is his ability to play heads up rugby with great awareness of those around him. He would also be one of the few with the distribution game and offloading skills required.

The fact that some of you think Keith Earls is the better 13 for expansive rugby speaks for itself.

No, he isn't constantly praised by his team mates and coaches. No one said a thing about him until the fans started saying out blunt Ireland's attack was and coaches & team mates circled the wagons and came out to defend him.

Well that's bull. In case you didn't notice he was here for three years before he even pulled on a green shirt and after his initial injury his teammates have been saying it the whole time.

For feic sake, he has hardly played 13 for Ulster, let alone Ireland. He has 10 caps. Of his 18 or so Hcup/Champs Cup games, 2 of them have been at 13.  

Any criticism of him has been as a 13 and he has been rightly praised as a fullback for Ulster.

This is what Peter Stringer said about him in September:

Peter Stringer the42.ie wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

McCloskey and Henshaw is the ticket in midfield when king Payne hangs up his boots.

Serious question rodders. Why wait with moving Henshaw to 13? I honestly see him as the best 13 Ireland currently have in the offering. Payne, to me, would be the perfect 15 for Ireland going forward.

Because I think Payne is better than the both of them at 13, certainly McCloskey has a good bit to go experience wise.

In terms of Payne at 15 - that boat has sailed for me. He's bulked up physically and lost a yard of pace. I never thought Payne was a natural fullback anyway, just an unorthodox one and the main attribute he had as a 15 was the ability to spot space and counterattack.

Payne's natural position for me is at 13 and I have zero doubt hes the best player there by a distance. Interesting also Henshaw was back at full back at the weekend.

I'd have Darren Cave ahead of McCloskey and only marginally behind Henshaw at inside center on current form possibly Noel Reid too.

At 13 for me its Payne out in front and a toss up between Fitz and Earls to carry his kit bag .

As a general note thought the quality from all the provinces was pretty dire this week, especially in attack.

Ben Teo is the most exciting player in Irish rugby with the ball.

It makes what Joe has done with this group all the more remarkable.

Sin é wrote:

Peter Stringer the42.ie wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for letting us know exactly what Peter Stringer said. It is brand new information that people were not aware of until this point. Its certainly a new contribution to this debate. Thanks again.

eirebilly wrote:
Given a one on one, who would you rather see defending the back Kearney or Payne?

Kearney. Going for a high ball, Kearney. Kicking from deep, Kearney. Running the ball back into space, Payne. Entering the line, Payne. Choosing the right pass when we have a 2 on 1, Payne.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Peter Stringer the42.ie wrote:Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.
When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.
He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for letting us know exactly what Peter Stringer said. It is brand new information that people were not aware of until this point. Its certainly a new contribution to this debate. Thanks again.

Kearney in the opposition 22.

rodders wrote:As a general note thought the quality from all the provinces was pretty dire this week, especially in attack.

Ben Teo is the most exciting player in Irish rugby with the ball.

It makes what Joe has done with this group all the more remarkable.

Only saw the Leinster and Ulster games and I think I like Leinster right now...trying to get back an attacking shape after MOC's wilderness years.
.... it's rusty as f**k and tons of work needed on it but nope, I've said it as much as Sin has mentioned Stringer, Penney and Earls, you can't do nothing 'lessin' you practice, practice, practice. We'll do nothing if we keep kicking the f**king ball away simply because we 'admit' that our attacking players are schyte............ So I applaud the intent if not yet the execution.

But sure Leinster's best attacking move was the high ball for Ringrose?

Not so rodders. I like the cut of Leinster's jib. It's fragile as f**k, as I've said.... but something with much more potential is at least being contemplated.

No there is definitely more attacking intent from Leinster. I think Noel Reid has contributed a lot there. I think we underestimate how important having a good 12 is in the team. It is a pity that his defence is so poor.

I wonder will a resurgent Leinster result in an improved Ireland.Since we supply the bulk of the squad then if we are playing well,skills are improved and the players are confident then hopefully this will translate to the national team.Is it possible that MoC didn't just damage Leinster with his 2 years of "coaching".

Intent might be there but Boss is so slow there are cobwebs on the ball.

Ireland are playing with much more attacking intent than any of the provinces and haven't failed to score a try under Schmidt.

rodders............... it's a balance.

Ireland mostly attack a certain way... and it's highly attritional stuff.  We witnessed the absolute heavy-weight clash we inflicted on France (and ourselves!!) and we witnessed the toll.  One game.... the after effects of which left players either out for the next game or out on their feet during the next game.

Leinster are trying to introduce much sharper width on the game to find gaps, spaces and holes rather than to simply always bludgeon through.
Of course Boss isn't the man to service it now.  But the intent IS absolutely essential.  It'll probably take a season or two to offload MOC's negative nothing game  (whether he was the outright culprit or not, its his name as Head Coach that are on those years) and get back genuine fluidity.

The point is the turn-around in ambition was needed, it'll now take time for that philosophy to get a foothold again - but it's the right direction.  We need it all. All Provinces need complete games.  Forward linebreaking menace - genuine space finding back-play. No choice. The modern game requires it all to compete.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

McCloskey and Henshaw is the ticket in midfield when king Payne hangs up his boots.

Serious question rodders. Why wait with moving Henshaw to 13? I honestly see him as the best 13 Ireland currently have in the offering. Payne, to me, would be the perfect 15 for Ireland going forward.

Because I think Payne is better than the both of them at 13, certainly McCloskey has a good bit to go experience wise.

In terms of Payne at 15 - that boat has sailed for me. He's bulked up physically and lost a yard of pace. I never thought Payne was a natural fullback anyway, just an unorthodox one and the main attribute he had as a 15 was the ability to spot space and counterattack.

Payne's natural position for me is at 13 and I have zero doubt he is the best player there by a distance. Interesting also Henshaw was back at full back at the weekend.

I'd have Darren Cave ahead of McCloskey and only marginally behind Henshaw at inside center on current form possibly Noel Reid too.

At 13 for me its Payne out in front and a toss up between Fitz and Earls to carry his kit bag .

Interesting I agree with very little of that

Henshaw is the best long rerm prospect at 13 but mqaybe not quite ready yet.
Payne remains for me a top class 15 and an ok 13 (and not the best 13 at Ulster). Defends well enough and a decent organiser (why he is Schmidt choice - the best defensive 13) but remains limit in all aspects of 13 play. Allied to the fact Kearney defensively has not been great for some time a very good case can be made for Payne being the best available 15.
As I have mentioned on the Ulster thread if every player was fit and we have a final next week Payne would be 15 and McCloskey would probably not make the team.
McCloskey is a great prospect but still a bit raw.
Reid like Gilroy needs to improve defensively before he is a serious contender.
Since the World Cup Cave has been Ulsters best back and by some distance.

Ha!

Geoff you don't think Ulsters first choice line up (sans Bowe) is

Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Cave, Payne, Trimble, Ludik?

Marshall, Olding, McCloskey

If all fit I understand we would go:

Pienaer, Jackson, Bowe, Olding, Cave, Trimble, Payne
Bench: Marshall, McCloskey, Gilroy

I did say everyone fit - the above comes from a pretty good source

geoff999rugby wrote:If all fit I understand we would go:

Pienaer, Jackson, Bowe, Olding, Cave, Trimble, Payne
Bench: Marshall, McCloskey, Gilroy

I did say everyone fit - the above comes from a pretty good source

I'm guessing it wasn't Ludik?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Henshaw is the best long rerm prospect at 13 but mqaybe not quite ready yet.
Payne remains for me a top class 15 and an ok 13 (and not the best 13 at Ulster). Defends well enough and a decent organiser (why he is Schmidt choice - the best defensive 13) but remains limit in all aspects of 13 play. Allied to the fact Kearney defensively has not been great for some time a very good case can be made for Payne being the best available 15.
As I have mentioned on the Ulster thread if every player was fit and we have a final next week Payne would be 15 and McCloskey would probably not make the team.
McCloskey is a great prospect but still a bit raw.
Reid like Gilroy needs to improve defensively before he is a serious contender.
Since the World Cup Cave has been Ulsters best back and by some distance.

Interesting to read that an Ulster fan shares mine and others views towards Payne being a better option at 15 rather than at 13.

Henshaw may not be the fully there as yet but no player simply walks into international level and looks completely at home. Henshaw has looked very comfortable though and I feel that he should be put into 13 for Ireland sooner rather than later. I have seen Cave play for Ulster after the RWC and he does indeed look good so would love to see him and Henshaw given the chance to shine (if form persists and avoidance of injury) for the 6N

Cave has had chances for years with several coaches and the only time he has looked anyway good is when playing with Keith Earls. He really isn't athletic enough to play international rugby (i.e., to make a Joe's team he needs to be getting quickly to and hitting a lot of rucks).

Henshaw could be exposed at 13 for Ireland and absolutely destroy his confidence. Look at the criticism Keith Earls has to put up with if he misses a tackle or fail to give the Kearney brothers a week's notice to make a tackle.

Leinster favourite to land Henshaw. So at least he'll get time playing with the rest of his Ireland team mates.

eirebilly wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Henshaw is the best long rerm prospect at 13 but mqaybe not quite ready yet.
Payne remains for me a top class 15 and an ok 13 (and not the best 13 at Ulster). Defends well enough and a decent organiser (why he is Schmidt choice - the best defensive 13) but remains limit in all aspects of 13 play. Allied to the fact Kearney defensively has not been great for some time a very good case can be made for Payne being the best available 15.
As I have mentioned on the Ulster thread if every player was fit and we have a final next week Payne would be 15 and McCloskey would probably not make the team.
McCloskey is a great prospect but still a bit raw.
Reid like Gilroy needs to improve defensively before he is a serious contender.
Since the World Cup Cave has been Ulsters best back and by some distance.

Interesting to read that an Ulster fan shares mine and others views towards Payne being a better option at 15 rather than at 13.

Henshaw may not be the fully there as yet but no player simply walks into international level and looks completely at home. Henshaw has looked very comfortable though and I feel that he should be put into 13 for Ireland sooner rather than later. I have seen Cave play for Ulster after the RWC and he does indeed look good so would love to see him and Henshaw given the chance to shine (if form persists and avoidance of injury) for the 6N

Oi, I've always agreed with you on the Payne subject

I would have loved to have seen Payne utilised at 15 at some stage in the build up to or during the RWC. With the scratching of heads about the 12 and 13 shirts I firmly believe he'd cause even more scratching of heads about the 15 shirt. Mind you Joe would only be scratching his head wondering why he'd persevered with Robnoxious Kearndasian for so long. Payne reads the game so much better from 15 IMO and hits gaps instead of players unlike Rob.

How about

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Payne

For the the 6 nations???

If Rob hits players that's a sure sign he's on the right track with Irish Rugby Traditions of ye olden times when Mammoths walked through Leitrim.

Payne needs to get his Kiwi head out of his ass and learn to be more Irish by putting his head into more block walls..... that'll put hair on his chest, it will!

How about a revolution:

9. Madigan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Fitzcarraldo
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Zeboski

Sin é wrote:Cave has had chances for years with several coaches and the only time he has looked anyway good is when playing with Keith Earls. He really isn't athletic enough to play international rugby (i.e., to make a Joe's team he needs to be getting quickly to and hitting a lot of rucks).

Henshaw could be exposed at 13 for Ireland and absolutely destroy his confidence. Look at the criticism Keith Earls has to put up with if he misses a tackle or fail to give the Kearney brothers a week's notice to make a tackle.

Well Earls is plenty athletic enough, just not in the position he wants to be in. What is wrong with being an international class winger that he wants so little to do with it?!

And I think it is fair to question the defence of Earls if we are pulling up the Kearneys on it, he missed the same amount of tackles as Kearney Snr against Argentina who is being flayed for it (amongst other things)

How do you think Henshaw will be exposed at 13 for Ireland?

Golden wrote:Leinster favourite to land Henshaw. So at least he'll get time playing with the rest of his Ireland team mates.

Why would Henshaw move to teams lower down the league? Maybe Sexton could move into the whest

I feel sorry for Connacht fans if that is confirmed to be true but 'Henshaw to Leinster' is a waaaay better headline to be reading for the rest of us than 'Henshaw to Clermont' or 'Henshaw to Saracens' down the line. Keeping players in Ireland has to be the priority.

Well hopefully its just his agent and himself putting themselves in a good position coming into negotiations with the IRFU. Even as a Leinster fan I'd rather he stayed put. I really enjoy watching Connacht play.

Notch wrote:I feel sorry for Connacht fans if that is confirmed to be true but 'Henshaw to Leinster' is a waaaay better headline to be reading for the rest of us than 'Henshaw to Clermont' or 'Henshaw to Saracens' down the line. Keeping players in Ireland has to be the priority.

Well the priority for me is four viable and competitive provinces, and striking while the iron is as hot as it's been (particularly with the recent increase in investment), but I know what you mean Notch! Wouldn't begrudge Henshaw his shot at club medals with any of the other three to be honest, he gave Connacht this year when he probably could've moved on and has always given his all. But would be great if the IRFU actually paid more than lip service and really backed Connacht to keep hold of their best players and build something there. Some great talent coming through.

Also not sure where would be his best fit at other provinces. Ulster are fairly flush for centres, and Leinster have Te'o, Reid, Madigan and Fitzgerald as options with Ringrose coming through at 13 (maybe he would got the other way for a year?). Maybe Munster would be the best option for him. Don't know if he actually would move abroad or if it is just negotiation chat.

Teo is only signed up til the end of the season and there was talk of him goig back to NRL. Hopefully he says put though.

He should stay at Connacht. IRFU should pump a bit more money their way and they should be the 4th Province to lift a European Cup in 2018

Pete330v2 wrote:How about

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Payne

For the the 6 nations???

That is very much the back line I would like to see. I think it has a great balance of attack and defence.

The one thing that I have not been happy with recently on this forum is the wolf-like attack mentality of a few posters on here. When I have posted these thoughts before I have been accused of being bizarre, lacking rugby knowledge, moronic, a hater and of provincial bias. Its so refreshing to actually see other posters thinking the same thing and as such has brought some balance back to this thread and has even calmed down those certain posters

eirebilly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:How about

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Payne

For the the 6 nations???

That is very much the back line I would like to see. I think it has a great balance of attack and defence.

The one thing that I have not been happy with recently on this forum is the wolf-like attack mentality of a few posters on here. When I have posted these thoughts before I have been accused of being bizarre, lacking rugby knowledge, moronic, a hater and of provincial bias. Its so refreshing to actually see other posters thinking the same thing and as such has brought some balance back to this thread and has even calmed down those certain posters

We would have Zebo and Kearney able to swap places on or off the bench amongst that, not to mention Fitz.
We need to be employing our best players in positions that'll bring out the best in them.
It's Seemples!!!!!

I think Henshaw to Leinster is a great move - long term we need Henshaw and Ringrose playing together so they can be an able back up pairing to Olding and McCloskey*.

* once Payne retires

I'd be very disappointed with Henshaw if he doesn't stay with Connacht and I see no reason why he should leave now that Connacht can qualify for Champions Cup rugby. Its a big chance for him to be a real rugby legend by sticking with Connacht and turning Connacht into a force in the Pro12 & Europe rather than hopping on the Leinster, Munster bandwagon to win a few medals or trophies. They could do it, why can't Connacht?

IRFU has to accommodate what Henshaw wants. If that is to stay at Connacht, brilliant. That is obviously the best case scenario. If he himself wants to leave Connacht, then they should be encouraging him to leave for another province because if they actively stop him from doing that he will just leave for a club overseas eventually anyway.

And yes, I think the same thing has to be true for Leinster, Munster and Ulster players. We would be in a much better place had the IRFU been able to encourage Tommy Seymour, Chris Farrell, Paddy McAllister, Niall Annett etc. etc. to leave Ulster for another province when they went instead of leaving Irish Rugby altogether.

Sin é wrote:I'd be very disappointed with Henshaw if he doesn't stay with Connacht and I see no reason why he should leave now that Connacht can qualify for Champions Cup rugby. Its a big chance for him to be a real rugby legend by sticking with Connacht and turning Connacht into a force in the Pro12 & Europe rather than hopping on the Leinster, Munster bandwagon to win a few medals or trophies. They could do it, why can't Connacht?

Probably been mentioned, but TV3 have got the rights to the 6 nations.

Fingers crossed they can find a few decent commentators ditch Matt Cooper and actually provide some kind of analysis instead of non stop ads.

What was Murray Kinsella like? His articles are strong but bit different to be doing live analysis

He was pretty much sidelined to a cameo role as pitch side reporter while other more recognisable pundits the analysis in a far more simple manner than he would in his writing, with much broader strokes.

Notch wrote:He was pretty much sidelined to a cameo role as pitch side reporter while other more recognisable pundits the analysis in a far more simple manner than he would in his writing, with much broader strokes.

Yeah I can't imagine his type of reporting lends itself to live punditry, takes a bit of time to craft and analyse which ultimately makes it a more interesting read. The general pundits can easily descend into a freestyle cliché and oversimplification contest so I mostly tune out anyway, don't know if Hook is any better than when I left Ireland but jesus what a dose he was

Pete330v2 wrote:How about

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Payne

For the the 6 nations???

This would be my selection:

9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.Zebo
12.McCloskey
13.Henshaw
14.Gilroy
15.R Kearney

Really want to see McCloskey given a shot at the 12 jersey with Henshaw at 13. The possibilities are tremendous.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:How about

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Cave
13. Henshaw
14. A.A.Trimble
15 Payne

For the the 6 nations???

This would be my selection:

9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.Zebo
12.McCloskey
13.Henshaw
14.Gilroy
15.R Kearney

Really want to see McCloskey given a shot at the 12 jersey with Henshaw at 13. The possibilities are tremendous.

No!!! FES, don't go in there, you have a family and people who care about you!!!

What have I done??

But I agree, on form when he was picked at 12 to partner Payne for Ireland he was the best 13 in the country. From what I have seen of McCloskey he looks very strong, and I think if Olding can recapture his form pre-injury he could be up there (although the 6N may come a bit soon for him).

Could see fitzgerald at 12, but I think Joe may stick with the incumbents (Payne, not Earls)