Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

It's harsh, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't fair!

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Well, you seem to think that Payne has a problem with passing so I have to take that post with a pinch of salt!

He cant pass five litres of water not to mind a rugby ball.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Care to give a reasonable argument as to why that is an apt analogy?What is the issue that the Munsterfans site has with dementedmole,you and Sin toe the party line with that site so admirably you should be able to give us some good examples of his crimes.

Because he makes Guns and yourself look like you actually have a clue...

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Care to give a reasonable argument as to why that is an apt analogy?What is the issue that the Munsterfans site has with dementedmole,you and Sin toe the party line with that site so admirably you should be able to give us some good examples of his crimes.

Because he makes Guns and yourself look like you actually have a clue...

So that's a no then.Make a big statement and can't back it up,pretty standard fare from you.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Care to give a reasonable argument as to why that is an apt analogy?What is the issue that the Munsterfans site has with dementedmole,you and Sin toe the party line with that site so admirably you should be able to give us some good examples of his crimes.

Because he makes Guns and yourself look like you actually have a clue...

So that's a no then.

There is no reasonable argument with regards to demented mole. Its a non question not deserving an answer.

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Care to give a reasonable argument as to why that is an apt analogy?What is the issue that the Munsterfans site has with dementedmole,you and Sin toe the party line with that site so admirably you should be able to give us some good examples of his crimes.

Because he makes Guns and yourself look like you actually have a clue...

So that's a no then.

There is no reasonable argument with regards to demented mole. Its a non question not deserving an answer.

It's a question,can you back up your statement?The answer is no,you are just toeing the Munsterfans party line,baa along little sheep.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The big criticism of Earls used be his distribution. Funnily enough that seems to be excused for Payne. Who appears to be like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to passing.

Someone quoted demented mole as a source of knowledge on the situation. That's like chunky but without any intelligence

Care to give a reasonable argument as to why that is an apt analogy?What is the issue that the Munsterfans site has with dementedmole,you and Sin toe the party line with that site so admirably you should be able to give us some good examples of his crimes.

Because he makes Guns and yourself look like you actually have a clue...

So that's a no then.

There is no reasonable argument with regards to demented mole. Its a non question not deserving an answer.

It's a question,can you back up your statement?The answer is no,you are just toeing the Munsterfans party line,baa along little sheep.

Its a stupid question. God knows you come up with stupid statements its not like me asking you to actually answer Sin É's comments, usually backed up by stats and some factual information but you constantly fail.

When it comes to the sheep line you do a good example of a flock on your own with regards to Joe and our complete failure in the WC.

You made a ridiculous statement and you can't back it up,the usual from you.Jog on.

JS is still the man to lead Ireland but if there is no improvement in style and Ireland have a poor 6N (could feasibly drop in rankings) then he will definitely come under pressure.

Playing the way Ireland did in the warm-up's and RWC, Ireland will struggle in the 6N.

eirebilly wrote:JS is still the man to lead Ireland but if there is no improvement in style and Ireland have a poor 6N (could feasibly drop in rankings) then he will definitely come under pressure.

Playing the way Ireland did in the warm-up's and RWC, Ireland will struggle in the 6N.

I disagree,if we have decent luck with injuries and play like we did in the WC then we'll challenge very strongly for the title again.We'll have a new defense coach so hopefully our problems their will be sorted and with just some minor improvements we should have a great shot at the GS.England away under a new coach might be tricky and Wales are never easy but we have more reason to be optimistic than any other team.

If we have a poor 6N then of course Schmidt will come under pressure but an equally valid statement is if we have a good 6N then Schmidt will be far and away the most successful Irish coach of all time.

Ireland (1 half against Wales aside) were woeful in the warm-up's. It worried me then but I was consistently informed by many on here that JS was hiding his tactics. Well to be honest, he hid them all through the RWC so am I now to be told that the RWC was not the target but 6N16 is the real target?

Ireland had some injuries, yes, as did most teams but good teams are able to adapt and adjust. Ireland didn't.

eirebilly wrote:Ireland (1 half against Wales aside) were woeful in the warm-up's. It worried me then but I was consistently informed by many on here that JS was hiding his tactics. Well to be honest, he hid them all through the RWC so am I now to be told that the RWC was not the target but 6N16 is the real target?

Ireland had some injuries, yes, as did most teams but good teams are able to adapt and adjust. Ireland didn't.

That's rubbish did he hide them against France ?You have pointed out several times that Schmidt will come under pressure if we have a poor 6N,can you acknowledge that if we have a good 6N then Schmidt will have given us a consistency not seen since before 2007 and allied that to the ability to win silverware.This will mark him out as far and away the best and most successful coach Ireland have ever had.

If Ireland have a successful 6N then I will certainly be happy with Schmidt, I have said that in the past...

Ireland played exactly how they had been playing in the RWC, I was referring to the constant claims from some on here that we were going to see Ireland deploy totally different tactics and they didn't. I don't count the France game so much as France were completely dire, think Canada gave Ireland a harder match.

Billy you have said that even if Ireland win the Six Nations you will not be impressed by Schmidt unless we win through expansive rugby.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Billy you have said that even if Ireland win the Six Nations you will not be impressed by Schmidt unless we win through expansive rugby.

No I have not particularly said expansive Rory, I have said that If Ireland play well meaning they play a better brand of rugby than they have been.

I have also said that if Ireland play good rugby but loose then I wont be too upset as long as it looks as if Ireland are making progress.

Winning the Six Nations 3 times in a row is the best proof that we are making progress.

SecretFly wrote:That explains the 'never suffer fools (or super intelligent folks     ) gladly' aspect of your character, Notch................

Although I never fixed you for a burnt umber for some reason.


That does it!  Competition time. Guess posters' hair colour!

Chunky is bald due to self-harming when angry.... but once had brown hair, a thick fringe and a big moustache............
Sin is baby oil bald due to fandom for Stringer
Rodders has a nice business man hair cut with a lotsa money twist
eirebilly has the word 'killer' shaved into the right side of his head to go with his snake in a fist tattoo that slides down his neck....

I'd put good money that yours in like Doc Brown in Back to the Future

Sin é wrote:

World cup stats:

Carries over gainline:  KEarls 24; JPayne: 13; RHenshaw: 22
Offloads: KE: 2; JP 2; RH:3
Clean Breaks: KE: 5; JP 3; RH: 1
Defenders beaten: KE: 9; JP: 4; RH: 9
Turnovers won: KE: 1; JP: 1; RH: 2.
Retained kicks: KE: 1; JP: 0; RH: 1

Metres carried: KE: 263m. JP: 147: RH: 115m.

So Henshaw was making breaks on the outside of Baustaraud, was he?

You forgot:

RWC Matches Played: KEarls: 5; JPayne 2; RHenshaw: 3

JJ Hanrahan had a decent game yesterday for Saint's. It was a difficult match but he stood up well.

Marshes wrote:

I'd put good money that yours in like Doc Brown in Back to the Future

I'm just back from 2019! Open the champagne bottles lads. It was a win for us in Japan. I was surprised as f**k though to see Cheika as our coach!!!! What the hell happened in the interval to see that dramatic change?

I'll investigate the truth next week when the DeLorean is back from its yearly service.

Watching Leinster here and I think the Irish teams are all suffering from the same problem really - struggling to penetrate the defensive line when it counts. The exception is Munster and I think it is because of how they utilise their forward pack. They love to pick and go around the fringes. The other teams seem to keep the forwards out in pods in the backs to take the ball in while the Munster pack stay close to the breakdown and drive forward. Which can create a lot of space for the backs to exploit.

I think that too often the forwards are out waiting in pods to take the ball and usually they don't make an awful lot of ground. Leinster and Ulster do it an awful lot and rarely do we see the backline function properly as there is always a prop forward or second row there in the middle to slow things down.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Watching Leinster here and I think the Irish teams are all suffering from the same problem really - struggling to penetrate the defensive line when it counts. The exception is Munster and I think it is because of how they utilise their forward pack. They love to pick and go around the fringes. The other teams seem to keep the forwards out in pods in the backs to take the ball in while the Munster pack stay close to the breakdown and drive forward. Which can create a lot of space for the backs to exploit.

I think that too often the forwards are out waiting in pods to take the ball and usually they don't make an awful lot of ground. Leinster and Ulster do it an awful lot and rarely do we see the backline function properly as there is always a prop forward or second row there in the middle to slow things down.

This. This is something that has irked me for some while and why Ireland seem unable to get flowing backline movements.

eirebilly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Watching Leinster here and I think the Irish teams are all suffering from the same problem really - struggling to penetrate the defensive line when it counts. The exception is Munster and I think it is because of how they utilise their forward pack. They love to pick and go around the fringes. The other teams seem to keep the forwards out in pods in the backs to take the ball in while the Munster pack stay close to the breakdown and drive forward. Which can create a lot of space for the backs to exploit.

I think that too often the forwards are out waiting in pods to take the ball and usually they don't make an awful lot of ground. Leinster and Ulster do it an awful lot and rarely do we see the backline function properly as there is always a prop forward or second row there in the middle to slow things down.

This. This is something that has irked me for some while and why Ireland seem unable to get flowing backline movements.

It doesn't irk me at all, our players simply aren't skillful or intelligent enough to execute attacking play against top teams and we don't have the raw athleticism to mask said skill deficits now the likes of BOD, Ferris and Horgan are retired and Bowe,SOB and Heaslip are unfortunately past their athletic primes.

Generally speaking we've never produced these types of players other than one offs like Gibson, Bod, Geoghegan etc.

That is why we are actually better using our forward pack to try and drive the ball closer to the fringes and create some much needed momentum. They need to act more like a forward pack and less like glorified centres/wingers. If they can do the donkey work properly it may create space for the backs to utilise.

At provincial level we need to recruit better players as it's pretty obvious the attacking quality of the french and English teams is a different level.

For Ireland I think the plan is working - just - we have an intelligence that is masking our deficiencies for the most part.

But for those who talk about attacking ambition and offloading I hope the Leinster v Wasps game was an eye opener on the limitations of our players and that without go to ball carriers like Hughes and strike threat out wide you can only do so much with the ball in hand.  

Look at the back rows we have - only Stander is a half decent carrier and he's hardly a beast - take Nick Wiliams out of Ulster and there is very little carrying ability.

There's a lot of decent players but no stars - similar in the backs, nothing like the power of Gonova, Piutau, Drew Mitchel, George North, Pisi etc.

Intelligence masking our deficiencies?

Let's face it, we're in a slump.  Provinces, Ireland.... a slump.  We lost to Wales and England in the warm-up Internationals and very nearly went down to Italy playing a supposed smart game of holding back our more intense selves and 'fooling' the French with our passive defence.
Turns out the French weren't fooled by anything and simply told us that if we want to win we're going to have to face down the physical challenge.  In the first half we paid the price of meeting that challenge.... in the second we were forced to play rugby at the intensity levels required to win these games.

We won...but again, we paid the inevitable price - out of gas for the Argentine game.

Ambition should remain.  Intensity levels required to sustain it and make it effective - Irish sides are well off the level of the top.  We've fallen off the radar and are being left behind by the rest...even Scotland sustained true intensity through the WC much more convincingly than we remotely showed.
It's not about special individuals bringing special skills (f**K you BOD for creating a generation of myth believers!) it's simply yet again about the energies that sides in England and France can bring and we can't sustain.  One week we do, the next week we're knackered.  Simples.
Even Paulie was lamenting that some young Irish players would feel inclined to go away to play.  The IRFU minds players was his reading.... the one week on, two weeks off holiday camp cottonwool stuff is to Paulie a good thing.  The expectations Irish players have for themselves in the Irish set-up is too cosy, too cottonwooly, too concerned with saving themselves for the few big matches a year that they'll give themselves totally to.

We simply have to admit we're off the fitness/conditioning standards now driving European sides forward.  We're in a head in the sand slump and we're making life even more difficult for ourselves by constantly ignoring the truth and blaming the lack of 'stars'.

How are we in a slump - we are winners of the past 2 6N? This is the most successful national side we've ever had.

The provinces are not at the races in Europe but that's because the Franglo's have shifted the goal posts financially and we've been left behind at that level.

I don't believe fitness and conditioning is the issue at all - not at senior level in any case. Sub academy (schools, AIB league) the standard of coaching is too low but that is not so easy to fix.

Fly - it is clear that the best teams do have to possess a few game breaking players who can shift the momentum in games. It isn't a myth at all. Ireland seem to have very few at the minute. We have a lot of hard working journeymen but it is clear that the provinces rely quite a bit on a few foreign signings to provide the majority of the ball carrying and flair that rodders has already alluded to.

We're in a slump...if you can't see that staring you in the face, rodders, after another impotent shot at another WC and the Provinces puffing and panting for the last few seasons, then so be it.

Two 6Ns will do us.  We'll sing about them in our old age.  How did we get them?  With a little Schmidt intelligence masking our deficiencies and just about one explosive game per season... still.

When we hit the serious teams at the WC we only got to one of them and they had done their homework on the 'deficencies' - lack of pace and stamina at the highest levels sustained through 80 minutes.  And they killed us off using the gameplan that kills off teams with such deficiencies.

Money doesn't win games.  Players drilled hard enough in the right areas to play the game Europe now demands (by virtue of the best sides playing it)... that's what wins.

Irish Provinces have always suffered the lack of global International stars because we've chosen for ourselves the concept of mostly Irish qualified players in teams.  So even when Leinster were winning in Europe, Sky still talked about the 'superstars' in the Clermont side and TOP14 etc etc.

Standards came up to meet Leinster because that's what was needed for English sides or French sides to win - and yes, some of them benefitted by the money helping that along.  But standards went up...and so far we (the Provinces or even Ireland) aren't inclined to follow them.  Let's wait for BOD Mark2 to arrive instead....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Fly - it is clear that the best teams do have to possess a few game breaking players who can shift the momentum in games. It isn't a myth at all. Ireland seem to have very few at the minute. We have a lot of hard working journeymen but it is clear that the provinces rely quite a bit on a few foreign signings to provide the majority of the ball carrying and flair that rodders has already alluded to.

And what am I saying?  Haven't I gone hoarse saying our conditioning and fitness values are not getting the equation right.  You need the forceful energy to impose yourself in a game.  You need that whether you play in the forwards, the centre or on the wings.  You need the new degrees of energy and strength to do these jobs.  A blackboard of correct strategy won't do it.  You can talk technique ands strategy all day but in order to bring player that can play physical and hard through a high level through a sequence of games without falling off the pace or falling away injured, you have to condition them to the standards.
We're not there.  All we could handle was one super intense game at the WC.  That's where we fell.  We couldn't handle another one so soon after one.  And now POC is saying we do things different here.  It's an easier life.  He's saying it - not me.  What does he mean?  He means what he says.  Players have it easier.

I don't think it has to do with conditioning or fitness though. I think it has more to do with natural rugby talent and we don't have so many of those players in the current Ireland squad. We just do not have many game breakers. With that in mind Schmidt has done wonders with this squad. In fact I would say that one of the reasons we have been punching well above our weight is because of how well conditioned our players are, especially in defence.

Against Argentina we lost a lot of our key players and I really do think it is as simple as that. We did not have the players to carry out the same game plan effectively when we lost the core group.

SecretFly wrote:
Money doesn't win games.  Players drilled hard enough in the right areas to play the game Europe now demands (by virtue of the best sides playing it)... that's what wins.

Irish Provinces have always suffered the lack of global International stars because we've chosen for ourselves the concept of mostly Irish qualified players in teams.  So even when Leinster were winning in Europe, Sky still talked about the 'superstars' in the Clermont side and TOP14 etc etc.

Standards came up to meet Leinster because that's what was needed for English sides or French sides to win - and yes, some of them benefitted by the money helping that along.  But standards went up...and so far we (the Provinces or even Ireland) aren't inclined to follow them.  Let's wait for BOD Mark2 to arrive instead....

Well I think if you look back 5/6 seasons ago to the quality of NIE - Contepomi, Thorn, Hines, Howlett, Nacewa, Cullen, Tipoki, Muller are a few levels up than the guys at the minute.

And when you factor the quality of indigenous talent and experience generally things have gone backwards a bit across the board.

Money can fix the former but the latter takes time. There are good players there but the depth and experience the Franglos have is getting harder to compete with year on year.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think it has to do with conditioning or fitness though. I think it has more to do with natural rugby talent and we don't have so many of those players in the current Ireland squad. We just do not have many game breakers. With that in mind Schmidt has done wonders with this squad. In fact I would say that one of the reasons we have been punching well above our weight is because of how well conditioned our players are, especially in defence.

Against Argentina we lost a lot of our key players and I really do think it is as simple as that. We did not have the players to carry out the same game plan effectively when we lost the core group.

Totally agree - especially the first paragraph.

Rory, we've always suffered from not having an abundance of natural rugby talent.  It's why BOD was made a Saint...you cling hard to the few that show it.  Zebo for a while was another figure that people clung to for comfort, hoping we'd found a new Saint to carry us.

It's the completely wrong psychological approach.  First you must accept the limitations - lack of continuous genuine World Class Players coming through.  Then you ask how you're going to try and compensate.

How does Gatland's Wales compensate?  He tells us.  He's never shy.  Pro12 fitness and conditioning standards are shyte.  That's what he says.  He sneers the levels his players come to him with.  He gets to work on them seriously.  Many says he overdoes it.  Perhaps he does.  But it's the philosophy that he has right.  Limitations need solutions.  You can't just fold your arms and admit you're not good enough.  That's not acceptable from any Nation.
You work on what you can work on.  And all sides now with ambition do.  Wales lacked quality with all the injuries they had before the WC but they still provided the contest with players that had the levels of fitness far superior to what they'd have arrived at a WC with had they simply stepped out of their Pro12 Regional dressing rooms.  Gatland requires intense upping of conditioning to have these players ready to compete physically and in stamina through a SERIES of games.... not just one special designated game.  The skills and rugby brains probably let down Gatland's side in the end...ability to sustain high tempo tough physical games at the highest international standards didn't let them down.

Ireland were off the pace.  I saw it...clearly.  Provinces too are off the heightened pace and conditioning demanded now in Europe.  It's evident to me.  I can't honestly see why it isn't evident.  I see what I see.  Our conditioning standards are designed to tick over and wait for a few central games per year.  Not a good enough standard in modern Europe.

I think Wales have plenty of game breaking players in their squad though, and I fear playing them mostly for that reason. When I see the likes of AWJ, Warburton, Tipuric, North, an in-form Cuthbert, Williams, Roberts, Biggar, Webb, Davies, Halfpenny etc I tremble a little when they are facing Ireland. In fact I think that Wales have a better team than Ireland do, for the most part.

SecretFly wrote:
How does Gatland's Wales compensate?  He tells us.  He's never shy.  Pro12 fitness and conditioning standards are shyte.  That's what he says.  He sneers the levels his players come to him with.

Actually it was the Top14 he complained about fitness wise not the pro12.

Wales have an a abundance of talent in their side - North, Roberts, Davies, 1/2 Penny, Williams, Owens, Faletau, Biggar - which given its their national sport you'd expect.

But are Wales a better side than us - I'd say we are around the same level over the last few years.

I also think that is exactly what Schmidt is already doing - masking our deficiencies with some clever rugby tactics and now we are competitive at the highest level. He isn't waiting for the star players to come through, he is winning us trophies now. The only team we haven't beaten yet in the Schmidt era is New Zealand, and we haven't beaten them in any era!

I sincerely hope that these star players will come through the ranks because I would love to see what Schmidt can do with them.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Money doesn't win games.  Players drilled hard enough in the right areas to play the game Europe now demands (by virtue of the best sides playing it)... that's what wins.

Irish Provinces have always suffered the lack of global International stars because we've chosen for ourselves the concept of mostly Irish qualified players in teams.  So even when Leinster were winning in Europe, Sky still talked about the 'superstars' in the Clermont side and TOP14 etc etc.

Standards came up to meet Leinster because that's what was needed for English sides or French sides to win - and yes, some of them benefitted by the money helping that along.  But standards went up...and so far we (the Provinces or even Ireland) aren't inclined to follow them.  Let's wait for BOD Mark2 to arrive instead....

Well I think if you look back 5/6 seasons ago to the quality of NIE - Contepomi, Thorn, Hines, Howlett, Nacewa, Cullen, Tipoki, Muller are a few levels up than the guys at the minute.

And when you factor the quality of indigenous talent and experience generally things have gone backwards a bit across the board.

Money can fix the former but the latter takes time. There are good players there but the depth and experience the Franglos have is getting harder to compete with year on year.

All those players you mention weren't on the one team and weren't playing at the same time.  That very point you make can often hit a critic though.... all the great outside players that helped the Provinces.  
The Provinces were aided by some great external players yes - but mostly they helped themselves.  And they succeeded because their standards were then the equal or better than many of their European challengers.  In the past we all laughed at English rugby saying it was best when all we saw was big fat lads still doing it all in the forwards.  And in a sense, we laughed a little at Top14 too, that then had pretty much the same ideas and wasn't all that exciting either. O'Gara says it's still not all that exciting.
But gradually things improved in France with the influx of super players, coaches and a renewed willingness to throw the ball around.  England were later to that party - but now they too have decided that they can do the Leinster way too and better than Leinster can or probably could.  Standards have gone up.  Demands of players have gone up.  
And all that needed was a sea change in ideas at academy levels and in ambitions at those clubs.  They didn't like losing so they decided to change.  They've come up to Provincial standards, bypassed them...and we're still for now just looking - not yet truly reacting.

SecretFly wrote:They've come up to Provincial standards, bypassed them...and we're still for now just looking - not yet truly reacting.

But what reaction do you expect and from whom? - from Ireland? Well we had much better RWCs than those sides and beat them in the 6N.

From the provinces? Well that's were we need to flash the cash if we want to compete in Europe but at what cost.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Wales have plenty of game breaking players in their squad though, and I fear playing them mostly for that reason. When I see the likes of AWJ, Warburton, Tipuric, North, an in-form Cuthbert, Williams, Roberts, Biggar, Webb, Davies, Halfpenny etc I tremble a little when they are facing Ireland. In fact I think that Wales have a better team than Ireland do, for the most part.

You see players created by Gatland and his unswerving attitude that in order to play a game of fire and belligerence, in order to keep going and in order for the brain to keep firing out the right signals as bodies tire and tire...you need a whole other level of conditioning. The Welsh players are on fire mentally because the oxygen is in them and the strength is there.... for a Series of games.... not just a special designated one. You have to have the conditioning required to give you the confidence to perform over a series of tough games.

Wales improves as it goes along in campaings. It's always said and it mostly always happens to be true. Why? The player themselves say why. It's not rocket science. They don't say it's because they are simply better players than other players.... they always mention the tough regimes designed to get them to a level and stay there. They themselves mention these things. Gatland himself always mentions the need for it. Look at them. They're the players they are simply because of genes?

SecretFly wrote:
Wales improves as it goes along in campaings.  It's always said and it mostly always happens to be true.  Why?  

Or you could say they actually start slow - perhaps because their players aren't always fully fit from sitting on the bench in top 14 or putting in 50% effort for their regions most of the season.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They've come up to Provincial standards, bypassed them...and we're still for now just looking - not yet truly reacting.

But what reaction do you expect and from whom? - from Ireland? Well we had much better RWCs than those sides and beat them in the 6N.

From the provinces? Well that's were we need to flash the cash if we want to compete in Europe but at what cost.

The top English sides have bypassed the standards of Provinces.  They've done so by design, not by chance.  They are determined to be the best and play the best... in Europe.  Whether they succeed is still up for debate but they are on a serious curve now of doing what is required to give them the best chance.

We had much better WCs than England and France?  We had a much easier pool than England.  If we think England are rubbish simply because of the WC then we'll all get a rude awakening in the 6Ns to come.  France we beat. Yes.  Much better than them?  I wouldn't make that claim.

What must happen is that a player of POC's stature must in the future be given no cause for saying Irish players would be best stay at home because the regime at home is easier.  That would be a start because that would mean that the regime has toughened up and that there are no more 50% games in the minds of players.  
50% isn't good enough anymore to win the Pro12 or Europe.  So 50% is pointless as a method of sustaining form longer into a season.  The efforts must be punishing through the season.  We must learn how to demand that all games should be played like it's a final.  Not to win specifically but to simply up the challenges for the players so that the demands become expected and serviceable rather than something reserved for a few BIG Pro12 games and a few BIG European ones.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Wales improves as it goes along in campaings.  It's always said and it mostly always happens to be true.  Why?  

Or you could say they actually start slow - perhaps because their players aren't always fully fit from sitting on the bench in top 14 or putting in 50% effort for their regions most of the season.

They improve. You want to call it starting slow - fair enough. They improve. Not by chance but by design too We on the other hand contain, spoil, and frustrate the opposition for a few games and have one big game ready in the cooker as the all or nothing one. But if we need to play that game too early then we feel the effects of it the next game... fingernail chewing time. In other words, we're more successful with Joe - but the Irish thing keeps us oh so inconsistent too.

SecretFly wrote:
What must happen is that a player of POC's stature must in the future be given no cause for saying Irish players would be best stay at home because the regime at home is easier.  That would be a start because that would mean that the regime has toughened up and that there are no more 50% games in the minds of players.  

Well again he said specifically that players who want to play for Ireland should stay at home because they will play more games in France and get better managed game time wise - not that life is easier or less intense when it comes to training or playing.

In fact its well known that the top 14 teams play a lot of games and don't take the conditioning and training side as serious which is the opposite of what you are wanting to see.

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Wales have plenty of game breaking players in their squad though, and I fear playing them mostly for that reason. When I see the likes of AWJ, Warburton, Tipuric, North, an in-form Cuthbert, Williams, Roberts, Biggar, Webb, Davies, Halfpenny etc I tremble a little when they are facing Ireland. In fact I think that Wales have a better team than Ireland do, for the most part.

You see players created by Gatland and his unswerving attitude that in order to play a game of fire and belligerence, in order to keep going and in order for the brain to keep firing out the right signals as bodies tire and tire...you need a whole other level of conditioning.  The Welsh players are on fire mentally because the oxygen is in them and the strength is there.... for a Series of games.... not just a special designated one.   You have to have the conditioning required to give you the confidence to perform over a series of tough games.

Wales improves as it goes along in campaings.  It's always said and it mostly always happens to be true.  Why?  The player themselves say why.  It's not rocket science.  They don't say it's because they are simply better players than other players.... they always mention the tough regimes designed to get them to a level and stay there.  They themselves mention these things.  Gatland himself always mentions the need for it.  Look at them.  They're the players they are simply because of genes?

Okay... but what makes you think that Schmidt isn't conditioning his players properly? Of course this is a requirement and one that he will be striving to continually improve. But the reality is that a well conditioned and talented athlete is going to be better than a well conditioned average joe. The best teams will have more of the former.

I also wouldn't use the Wales team as a good example for their physical fitness and conditioning. Their injury list is so severe that many are questioning their methods.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:the reality is that a well conditioned and talented athlete is going to be better than a well conditioned average joe. The best teams will have more of the former.

Hey great phrase that Rory - it would look really good on a t-shirt or tank top.

I have to admit that I agree fully with Fly on this.

I cant agree that Ireland had better World Cups than Wales, England or Scotland if I may be honest. I cant see (having seen how Ireland played) that they would have gotten out of the same group that Wales and England were in.

I still believe that England are a better team than Ireland and once they are coached well again, will certainly be. That warm-up game was a shocker if I am honest. (please don't come with the 'protecting of tactics' argument as it is clearly was not).

Wales did much better than Ireland in my mind. They had their injuries (more than Ireland did and to big key players as well) but under Gatland, they adapted to the scenario and showed just what a well coached team they are.

Scotland actually played with real intent, Cotter has them in a learning phase whereby he is getting them to play their game and not setting them up to counter other teams tactics and game plan. Much better from them and they look to be going in the right direction.

France, a side full of very decent players but horribly coached and mismanaged. Ireland beat them only because they had to go hard and play rugby in the second half. The signs are there that Ireland can play well and this should be encouraged.

Ireland do have some players with real game breaking ability, of that I am confident.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
What must happen is that a player of POC's stature must in the future be given no cause for saying Irish players would be best stay at home because the regime at home is easier.  That would be a start because that would mean that the regime has toughened up and that there are no more 50% games in the minds of players.  

Well again he said specifically that players who want to play for Ireland should stay at home because they will play more games in France and get better managed game time wise - not that life is easier or less intense when it comes to training or playing.  

In fact its well known that the top 14 teams play a lot of games and don't take the conditioning and training side as serious which is the opposite of what you are wanting to see.

I'm wanting to see a serious cross Provincial upping of demands on players to perform hard in all games they play in. They can have their rest weeks, they can be subbed a little earlier. I'm not saying we run single players into the ground. But we demand they play hard in every game to up their physicality (through gameplay) up their stamina (through gameplay) up their rugby brain instincts (through gameplay). Demand a lot from them to get more out of them. Have our true rotational structures in place. Treat them well, have a strong medical framework. But when individuals play, 100% should be demanded. Each and every game. No 60% games allowed from players simply because a BIG derby is coming up in two weeks time that they want to stay fresh for. If they play, they play to the max.

So harder demands of players that play....................... for the good of Provincial rugby and for the good of International. Now why would such a condition or wish be frowned upon as unrealistic or as undoable or as 'the wrong approach'? Improve players, improve the speed of thought they play with, improve choice making, improve toughness, improve consistency, improve speed, improve stamina. It all needs improving. And even our 'not great' players need that improvement more than our few 'special' ones. Improve the climate around the 'special' players and we might crawl back higher up the ladder.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Okay... but what makes you think that Schmidt isn't conditioning his players properly? Of course this is a requirement and one that he will be striving to continually improve. But the reality is that a well conditioned and talented athlete is going to be better than a well conditioned average joe. The best teams will have more of the former.

I also wouldn't use the Wales team as a good example for their physical fitness and conditioning. Their injury list is so severe that many are questioning their methods.

Gatland plays to the very edge.  We all admit that.  But that's not an argument for saying he hasn't gained much from the policy.  He has.  And a lot of his present kudos as a coach of note, and his insertion as Lions coach owed much to his relentless pursuit of the theory that in order to compete you must be conditioned to compete.  It doesn't matter what natural skills you possess.... you need the conditioning to keep the skills motoring through 80 hard minutes of International rugby.

I told people here before.  Schmidt is ex Leinster.  We think highly of him just as Leinster fans, nevermind the Irish bit.  I think he's the man for us.  I hope he leads us in to the next WC.  I think highly of him as coach and man.  But saying all that doesn't preclude me from actively criticising aspects of Ireland rugby inc that I think is failing us.  That's legitimate to do and think.  I'll continue thinking and speaking about my concerns.  None of it is 'Anti-Joe'  It's designed to perhaps just enter the thought processes and I'd hope someone somewhere thinks like me and hopefully Joe is one of them.

For now I think he has trusted his conditioning people to do their thing.  I don't think he'd interfere nearly as much as I'd expect Gatland to have interfered.  I think Joe thinks of the coaching aspects (tactics) and expects his conditioning people (and regional guys) to get their bit done with the players that show.
I'd say the solutions are now more in the hands of Nucifora.  Perhaps the inquest into our performance at the WC will highlight issues there.  We'll see.  But I'll keep talking about the central issue of my concern.  And nobody can say I'm new to it.  It's been a concern for some years now.

I think players are working incredibly hard - too hard. One of the few special players we have is Olding and look at him, injury after injury.

Look at Felix Jones, Stevie Ferris, Dennis Leamy guys lost to injury prematurely and others like O'Brien and Healy.

I don't accept that our players aren't well conditioned and putting in the work. Conditioning wise we are ahead of the rest of the world bar the ABs.

What we don't have is the natural size and pace so our guys worker even harder in the gym and training not less than other sides.