England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Anyway Eligibility has been done to death...the rules are clear so I guess we suck it up and accept it.

Edit I didn't realise Ewers parents are both English aswell....

lostinwales wrote:Kvesic. Every bit as German as Heathcote is Scottish....

Actually he is less German than Heathcote is Scottish. Kvesic was born in BMH Iserlohn which, due to the Potsdam Agreement, was still officially UK territory until it closed in 1995.

For the record I don't think there is or should be any issue over Kvesic at all. I do find it odd when its even brought up in these threads. Maybe because he has a Croatian surname?

TBH I have not seen anyone objecting to Kvesic. As someone also born in a BMH, I would rip the nuts off anyone who tried to claim I was a german.

Dickson was born in Germany, armed forces parents.
Simon Shaw, born in Kenya, went to college in Madrid.

Is Dickson German, Shaw Kenyan?

Place of birth means nothing if you are born to forces or diplomatic service parents

Apologies for sending us down that path of Eligibility...

Next .....Matt Mullan v Joe Marler v Nic Auterac (Is that French?) v Mako (With the Welsh accent)  Thoughts?

Hmm, Mullan - is that an Irish name?

Mullan sounds Irish, can't go there (Sorry LT we crossed, same thoughts)

Joe Marler is obviously Native American, see the haircut

Nic Auterac, not sure a about French, but sounds foreign and he played a while at London Scottish, so no.

Just go for Alex Waller, born in Kettering with an English sounding name.



Probably find he has parents from Outer Mongolia or somewhere who changed their name to make it pronounceable

Ok on a serious note...whats your thoughts on their performances. Who currently looks the likely starter?

Auterac has looked the strongest in the set piece followed by Waller imo. I've never been hugely impressed with Mullen as a scrummager.

Really depends what Eddie wants I guess.

Still not overly impressed with Mako. at int level I feel he can be dominated at scrums too easily, and his carrying disappears.

I like what I see with Auterac - he seems to be a big guy, but with a good engine and great hands. Paired with Jamie George could be a useful combo.

BUT

We have seen Marler and Mako shine at club level, but appear subdued at international level.

For me Matt Mullan is a really good technical scrummager, but he can be overpowered. Reminds me of Domingo from France.

Mullan and Waller look to be very good at the moment, both compact, strong srummagers, Mullan maybe a bit better scrummager, but Waller makes up for it at the breakdown and in loose play.

Brookes is playing well, complimented by Hill, only seen bits of Cole, but not impressive, and I have not seen Wilson yet was he playing last weekend?

It was only one game but Henry Thomas really impressed me at the weekend. Im going to keep a watch on him. If that's the level hes at now then he must come into the reckoning.

Waller seems really inconsistent to me. I have seen him dominate THs, but get dominated back just as often.

Hows Balmain looking LT?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hows Balmain looking LT?

He covered well on the LH, but looks much more solid at TH. Not really pushing for any kind of international recognition atm, but at current rate of progress he may well be first choice in 12 months time for us. Add in a solid carrying game and he may be one to watch before this four year cycle is done.

his fitness looks good too, can play a full 80 without seeming to tire excessively.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Mullan and Waller look to be very good at the moment, both compact, strong srummagers, Mullan maybe a bit better scrummager, but Waller makes up for it at the breakdown and in loose play.

Brookes is playing well, complimented by Hill, only seen bits of Cole, but not impressive, and I have not seen Wilson yet was he playing last weekend?

We should get another look at Brookes and Waller on Friday eve, right?

The question about where sons of military families were born is flat out wrong. They were not born outside the country, they were born whilst parents were on duty or on assignment.

No one doubted those born of Military parents Doc.

I was the one who raised this whole issue, and its only really Hughes and O'Conner that fall under the "no likey" category.

I wasn't even aware Ewers had English parents.

doctor_grey wrote:
The question about where sons of military families were born is flat out wrong.  They were not born outside the country, they were born whilst parents were on duty or on assignment.  

In fact, at least for BMHs in Germany, anyone born in such is officially born in a UK territory. Birth is not registered with the German officials, but with the Consul General and then back in UK - giving two birth certificates. Of course technically I guess anyone like that, including me, is able to represent any national team within the UK, much like channel islanders and thus people like BudgeMacPountney

GeordieFalcon wrote:No one doubted those born of Military parents Doc.

I was the one who raised this whole issue, and its only really Hughes and O'Conner that fall under the "no likey" category.

I wasn't even aware Ewers had English parents.

I thought Ewers had a full set of british grandparents, with his parents born and raised in what was then Rhodesia.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Mullan and Waller look to be very good at the moment, both compact, strong srummagers, Mullan maybe a bit better scrummager, but Waller makes up for it at the breakdown and in loose play.

Brookes is playing well, complimented by Hill, only seen bits of Cole, but not impressive, and I have not seen Wilson yet was he playing last weekend?

We should get another look at Brookes and Waller on Friday eve, right?  

The question about where sons of military families were born is flat out wrong.  They were not born outside the country, they were born whilst parents were on duty or on assignment.  

Agreed - Scotland managed to bend those rules a little but its not a big deal in the grand scheme of things

Props. If we think Auterac is going to be the real deal then we should get him involved soon as possible. I think that the transition from domestic to international rugby is very tough on props and it will most likely take a season or 2 before they are able to really start making a difference. Think about the improvement in Marler over that time.

Interesting to see how we seem to rate the suitability of the imports. The younger they come the better. The longer they are here before the matter of international recognition the better. The more they learn their rugby in our system the better. The more integrated/ committed to staying in this country the better.

So the worst case is the established high quality import who looks to use some tenuous family link (grandparent, or possible parent with a distant link) to qualify. The next worst is the same guy who looks to qualify in 3 years and so on.

I'm still not sold on Brookes, has he improved that much after a few weeks at Saints?

Saints have a great scrum and Waller is a real rock at LH. The way Rob Vickers hammered Brookes a few weeks back leaves it open.

Jon Welsh has came in and improved out set piece no end which tends to suggest Brookes if flattering some what.

Is there a huge rush to get Auterac in, he's very early 20s isn't he? I'd like to see him really tearing up the AP for a while, then look to get him in for Australia tour.

I'd go Marler, Mako, Mullan for now

I don't think there should be a huge rush to get Auterac in he is only 23.  I think it is more a comment on the other options, that none of them seem to have nailed down the starter spot and they all seem to have some question marks over their scrummaging.  It is a case that we are all looking for the next 'real deal' - a prop who can at least hold his own at the scrum and do some good work around the pitch.  Auterac seems to have this, but we probably had equal hopes for Marler and Mako when they were his age.

I am not sure the old adage that props hit their peak in their late 20's early 30's rings true anymore.  The pace of the current game and the punishment props take in scrums is I think leading to younger props coming into international rugby.

If he is 23 now and a prospect then we should be aiming to have him as a fixture in, say, 2 years.

All I am thinking is that if this is something we should go after then he should be part of the saxons/ wider training squad now with a view to him getting some experience as a sub next season. Something like that

nlpnlp, I think you've almost hit the nail on the head there. Certainly the days when a prop just had to scrummage and lift are long gone - but I also think the changes to the engagement have made scrummaging a more challenging skill and one that will inevitably be examined at international level far more than at club.

So you have the dilemma of do you bring through young props early and let them have their baptism of fire in the scrum but be strong in the loose, or do you bring them through later and perhaps lose something around the park?

At the moment, Marler has been the best compromise on the LH side. He got caught out by the Aussie chorus line move in the RWC but prior to that he has been a reliable scrummager and according to the 606er who got to watch a training session (LT or propdavid, I think) was far and away the fittest front row in the squad. He has also not been injured much. If Corbs could stay fit, he could challenge that; Mako I suspect is primarily an impact player at international level. I would not be averse to seeing Auterac given a chance, though probably after a bit of time in the squad and as a replacement.

Cole is probably the best option on the TH side for now - but he has been less effective since his injury and I suspect that the new engagement may not suit him. Wilson is unlikely to be around in 2019, so we need to look at bringing the next wave of props through. Brookes and Thomas are the obvious contenders but several others are worth a look. Sinckler (whatever Student things) is one to develop - he can be outfoxed in the scrum but has also dominated some top class LHs and (most promisingly) adapted his technique to turn the tables mid game. He's also similar to Marler in the loose. Collier has been under the radar (and injured last season) and is technically more proficient but less industrious around the park.

GeordieFalcon wrote:No one doubted those born of Military parents Doc.
I was the one who raised this whole issue, and its only really Hughes and O'Conner that fall under the "no likey" category.
I wasn't even aware Ewers had English parents.

Sorry mate, I jumped the gun on that one.  Should have actually read above.  My bad.
For Hughes and O'Connor is it no likey or no want?  O'Connor is clearly a bridge too far for me.  At least hit the 3 year residency, though I don't like either the grandparent rule or the three year qualification period.  
I didn't know about Ewers' parents either.  I had thought he qualified for England by residency.  I suppose if we are talking Zim/Rhodesia parents are likely Dutch or English, but never thought about it.  

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:The question about where sons of military families were born is flat out wrong.  They were not born outside the country, they were born whilst parents were on duty or on assignment.  

In fact, at least for BMHs in Germany, anyone born in such is officially born in a UK territory. Birth is not registered with the German officials, but with the Consul General and then back in UK - giving two birth certificates. Of course technically I guess anyone like that, including me, is able to represent any national team within the UK, much like channel islanders and thus people like BudgeMacPountney

I was born in the BMH in Hong Kong, so the birth certificate thingy used to be a problem when obtaining a passport.  And that was when HK was UK.  I didn't live in England until I was 13, so I always thought I qualified for England because of my parents.  For some odd reason, I am still waiting to be called into the squad.....

doctor_grey wrote:I was born in the BMH in Hong Kong, so the birth certificate thingy used to be a problem when obtaining a passport.  And that was when HK was UK.  I didn't live in England until I was 13, so I always thought I qualified for England because of my parents.  For some odd reason, I am still waiting to be called into the squad.....

The real fun for me came when I was arrested at Munich Airport for failing to do German National Service. Turned out that for a couple of months a new clerk at the CG's office had also been filing births with the Germans. By the time everything was sorted i was, needless to say, well aware of the rules pertaining to the legal status of foreign military establishments within Westphalia

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I was born in the BMH in Hong Kong, so the birth certificate thingy used to be a problem when obtaining a passport.  And that was when HK was UK.  I didn't live in England until I was 13, so I always thought I qualified for England because of my parents.  For some odd reason, I am still waiting to be called into the squad.....

The real fun for me came when I was arrested at Munich Airport for failing to do German National Service. Turned out that for a couple of months a new clerk at the CG's office had also been filing births with the Germans. By the time everything was sorted i was, needless to say, well aware of the rules pertaining to the legal status of foreign military establishments within Westphalia

Oh my. That could have been seriously very not good.  I presume no one noticed your English accent.
So tell me, how is the food in the German prison system?  Hopefully improved since 1945????

Well after several hours in an immigration holding cell i was released under bail pending full investigation.

The bureaucracy involved in clearing things up was mind bogglingly convoluted.

That is really bizarre. I can't imagine how one would go about getting that resolved. The whole thing must have come out of the blue. Almost surreal.

LondonTiger wrote:Well after several hours in an immigration holding cell i was released under bail pending full investigation.

The bureaucracy involved in clearing things up was mind bogglingly convoluted.

LT,

My eldest was born in Germany at Wildenwrath and we use to have problems all the time with it and he did when he started applying for job and the like.

Heard Waller & Brookes had good games last night, did anybody see the game?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Heard Waller & Brookes had good games last night, did anybody see the game?

I thought both were getting serious benefit of the doubt at scrum time, helped by Afoa looking uninterested. Seemed to be some 50/50 calls given against the Glaws LH, that could have seen Brookes penalised, but when Waller did same things he got away with it.


In a truly horrid game, Saints did seem to have a clear edge at scrum time.

The weather made it a bad night for Rugby. Ball handling was a bit of a challenge by almost everyone. For the props, I think there were just a few pick and goes. But Saints had a significant dominance in the set piece, both scrum and line-out. Waller and Brookes were were good. They were helped by the starting loosehead for Gloucester who was really poor.

It seemed to me the only player on either team who seemed assured running with the ball was Ben Foden. He is really getting back to form.

We surely can't go Brown & Foden though? Not much forward planning

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We surely can't go Brown & Foden though? Not much forward planning

I see Dean Ryan is wondering whether Brown will be part of England's future under Jones.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We surely can't go Brown & Foden though? Not much forward planning

I see Dean Ryan is wondering whether Brown will be part of England's future under Jones.

Do you have a link for that Rugby Fan?

Realistically we have four players to fit into three positions. Brown, Foden, Watson and Nowell. Handily all of them bring different qualities, they're all different body types and all have a different natural skill set and way of playing the game from the back.

I could see Brown being phased out over time, he has a lot of plus points but his two weak areas speed and passing, can be big weak spots. It depends on who else is in the team though to make the hard yards he does, to start attacks and to kick long downfield.

yappysnap wrote:Do you have a link for that Rugby Fan?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/26/eddie-jones-england-rfu-twickenham-selection

One knock-on effect of more creative centres could be the demise of Mike Brown at full-back. The Harlequin has been perhaps England’s best player for the past couple of years but he is a very Six Nations type of player – good under the high ball, brave and a powerful runner. Passing is not his strength and, if Alex Goode is selected ahead of him, it would suggest a more fluid way of thinking.

What do these pundits see in Goode?!?!

Brown is surely nailed on, he's a class act. We need a younger FB option to bring through, Nowell or Watson seem the obvious options.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We surely can't go Brown & Foden though? Not much forward planning

We can always play Brown at 15 and Foden at 14. Oh wait..............

That's kind of my thinking too, to quote Eddie Jones and horrible media speak Brown doesn't have enough of a "point of difference" (vomit) to be the very best.

He can of course work on that, and in a different team, a player who can defend well and help lead could be as useful as a guy who can pass like a fly half but can't run, tackle or catch high balls.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What do these pundits see in Goode?!?!

Brown is surely nailed on, he's a class act. We need a younger FB option to bring through, Nowell or Watson seem the obvious options.

He does seem to be a press favourite, maybe because he's rarely actually in the England side so they can build him up without actually having it go wrong and them look silly. He is also a very good fit for his team, so a very good club player.

I can understand the appeal as he is very solid under the high ball but is also very creative. I think people look at the France game in August and see the way Farrell, Slade and Goode controlled the flow of the attack and think it could work longer term.

Personally I'm more of a fan of a strike runner at 15, which neither Brown or Goode are. If you play Ford/Farrell at 10 and Slade at 12 then you have a left and right option. Having a strike runner in the 13 and 15 off either side as well and then a gas man on each wing and you have a potent mix. This is why I like the idea of having a backline of:

9. Care/Youngs
10. Ford/Farrell
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph/Tuilagi
14. Nowell
15. Watson

Granted there isn't a power option other than Tuilagi, but if you pick a big enough pack with big enough runners to give you front foot ball and tie in the drift defense, then having that backline would run riot.

Oh, and watching the games today, Itoje came on early and was very impressive again.  I'm still not sold on whether he is big enough for an international lock but hes still got a few years growth in him yet.  Would be good to get him in the squad and maybe even use him off the bench to give him exposure.  Interesting to read Geech sees his future as a 6 though.  Again he could offer a lot there, good lineout option, solid in the tight and good at the breakdown.

Also, Haskell is playing another blinder at 6 for Wasps again today. He's in impressive form at the moment.

It's a damning indictment that Ashley Johnson has been a hooker for about 6 months max but can throw in point perfectly. While guys who've apparently been doing it for years are terribly hit and miss. If he can learn it so quickly then is there any excuse?

It's quite a sad state of affair Yappy.

I honestly think it's something you can either do or can't do. You can maybe tweak the skill a bit but if you're a poor thrower (Youngs, LCD) I honestly don't think they're going to improve too much.

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What do these pundits see in Goode?!?!

Brown is surely nailed on, he's a class act. We need a younger FB option to bring through, Nowell or Watson seem the obvious options.

He does seem to be a press favourite, maybe because he's rarely actually in the England side so they can build him up without actually having it go wrong and them look silly. He is also a very good fit for his team, so a very good club player.

Doesn't Pennell deserves a chance next to Brown?

He has the same uncanny ability to always beat the first man with ball in hand but has better hands and I'd argue a more intelligent kicking game - although he doesn't have the same distance as Brown he uses his boot better IMO.

I'd say Brown is better in defence. I.e. he is stronger in the tackle and covering probing kicks in behind the defence. However if we are looking for a FB who can still compete in the the high ball battles and aerial ping pong but also offer good hands joining the line then surely Pennell is our man?