Canelo - Not Elite

He's a very good fighter but no at all elite level.

I know many haven't seen him as elite but I thought he looked quite ordinary at times last weekend.

The problem is, Golden Boy, HBO and the boxing world in general wants him to be the next star to propel the sport for the next few years.

He looks good against static fighters but anyone with good boxing skills give him trouble and he doesn't seem to know how to rectify it.

He isn't that fast and his power isn't concussive as some feel and will be even less effective at MW.

The problem for him and his promoters is to keep him winning will take careful planning and whilst he brags about fighting anyone, his team are already back tracking from a GGG bout. To be fair it is very early doors so we'll see but don't see him as the "i'll fight anyone" type of fighter he says he is.

I can't see GGG losing a round against him though.

Where do you see his career in 5 years time?

Cotto fan ??....

Not every great fighter is an elite operator !!...

There are those that do and those that don't.....They are called overachievers and underachievers.....

Canelo wins against good opposition.....That is all that matters...

Now and go and get a tissue..

We'll find out in two weeks time if he's as tough as he thinks he is.

That's right...........He's fought Lara, Mayweather, Cotto, Trout...

and he's a coward now like Mayweather, Manny, Ward, Froch, Cotto, Martinez......

If he doesn't fight GGG....

Yep.....

He's done well to come back from the outclassing he took from Floyd. He's been alright in his fights since then, nothing special. The Lara fight was a big one for him in that he had clearly learned from the Mayweather fight and didn't let it slip away from him.

Against GGG his countering skills will come into play and we'll see how good he is. Against most others he has to initiate the action whereas he won't be doing that against Golovkin. Canelo may find at close quarters Golovkin makes mistakes. He's got a chance.

Canelo has to go from 154 - 160....

May/Manny have to go from 130 -160....

Cotto has to go from 140 -160..........

But everybody is happy for this knob to stay in his comfort zone at 160......Rather than fight Degale...Ward types....

Oh that's right.... Ward was ducking him !!........ ....Shame nobody told Ward..

Not a fan of GGG then?

It's his weight division and he has openly said he will only move for Mayweather given the nature of the fight with Floyd being one of the best...if not THE best fighter available so would drop weight to test himself.

Why drop for Canelo? He is the title holder now at 160 lbs so he shouldn't have to lose weight.

Nanny couldn't even make 154 and won a title there at 151lbs catch against Margarita who had been off for a year and wasn't even ranked at the weight.

Cotto was a champ at 160 lbs so in reality he should be fighter 160 lb fighters and not dictating weights for a class in which he just won a title.

Canelo and Cotto both fought in the 160 lbs division for the WBC strap...why should GGG lose weight and not weigh in at the 160 lbs limit??

Just baffles me t

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Canelo has to go from 154 - 160....

May/Manny have to go from 130 -160....

Cotto has to go from 140 -160..........

But everybody is happy for this knob to stay in his comfort zone at 160......Rather than fight Degale...Ward types....

Oh that's right.... Ward was ducking him !!........  ....Shame nobody told Ward..

His goal is to become unified middleweight champion. Why would he, you or anyone move up before he's done that.

It was reported though he offered Ward 50/50 at 64, but wanted 75/25 or 60/40 , not sure the correct figure(does anyone?) to fight at 68. Fair considering he sells the tickets.

Record dictates an elite fighter......

Khan is a better fighter than Danny Garcia..........Danny Garcia is an elite level fighter..

All about the record.......

Can you guys tell I don't like Golovkin yet ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Record dictates an elite fighter......

Khan is a better fighter than Danny Garcia..........Danny Garcia is an elite level fighter..

All about the record.......

Khan is better than Garcia? On what planet?

What constitutes elite these days? Alvarez is a good fighter. I really appreciate his willingness to fight the best and when I say fight, I mean fight, however, he isn't a great fighter and doesn't seem to have the potential to be one either. He does have some good skills but his work rate is very poor and he lacks confidence in his own stamina.

Like Hatton once did, he benefits greatly from the day before weigh-in malarkey.

Herol Graham was more gifted than Kalambay....

But I know who's going to be at least twenty places higher on any middleweight list..

All about finding a way....The best fighters find one...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Herol Graham was more gifted than Kalambay....

But I know who's going to be at least twenty places higher on any middleweight list..

All about finding a way....The best fighters find one...

What does that even mean? Are you suggesting Alvarez is a great fighter (bearing in mind you don't watch his fights)?

The sad thing is, Canelo is definitely elite in this era.

I love boxing, but the talent is not what it was.

Yea there are still some extremely gifted fighters, but not like there was even a decade ago.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Herol Graham was more gifted than Kalambay....

But I know who's going to be at least twenty places higher on any middleweight list..

All about finding a way....The best fighters find one...

What does that even mean? Are you suggesting Alvarez is a great fighter (bearing in mind you don't watch his fights)?

Yep I've never seen him fight....

Go and post half an article about Floyd....Like a schoolboy would...You pitiful cretin.

AdamT wrote:The sad thing is, Canelo is definitely elite in this era.

I love boxing, but the talent is not what it was.

Yea there are still some extremely gifted fighters, but not like there was even a decade ago.

Don't need to learn your craft as much...When there are four champions to go at ...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Herol Graham was more gifted than Kalambay....

But I know who's going to be at least twenty places higher on any middleweight list..

All about finding a way....The best fighters find one...

What does that even mean? Are you suggesting Alvarez is a great fighter (bearing in mind you don't watch his fights)?

Yep I've never seen him fight....

Go and post half an article about Floyd....Like a schoolboy would...You pitiful cretin.

Parking the Floyd rubbish and the insults - are you suggesting Alvarez is a great fighter or not?

That's better...

Your time of the month Truss?

I like Canelo, I just thought it was clear after last weekend he's not elite and shines against the right opposition.

I also think he can't make 154ibs anymore judging that he hasn't achieved it in 2 years.

Now Canelo has huge win over Cotto he'll be wrapped in cotton wool for 1-2 fights. This will be his promoters wish.

I bet you anything his next fight is not against a big current name.

You guys might laugh, but I would like to see Canelo vs Maidana if he gets his butt in gear.

maidana would probably struggle making 160 at the moment!

Would be entertaining! If Canelo is allowed to face someone before GGG then this would keep people entertained albeit won't be good preparation style wise.

I don’t have a problem with Cotto and Alvarez not wanting to fight GGG. I do have a problem with them claiming to be THE champion at 160lbs, but then refusing to fight at that weight; holding a 160lbs belt hostage from someone who wants to unify at that weight.

Similarly, if Ward was still at 168 and had the same ambition, I’d have a problem with GGG moving up, taking Abraham’s belt, then saying that if Ward wanted it, he’d have to come down to, say, 161lbs to fight for it.

Both Cotto and Alvarez are ducking GGG at 160lbs. It’s evident neither want to fight him at that weight. That’s fine. Just don’t claim to be THE middleweight champion then.

Qoxiivi wrote:I don’t have a problem with Cotto and Alvarez not wanting to fight GGG. I do have a problem with them claiming to be THE champion at 160lbs, but then refusing to fight at that weight; holding a 160lbs belt hostage from someone who wants to unify at that weight.

Similarly, if Ward was still at 168 and had the same ambition, I’d have a problem with GGG moving up, taking Abraham’s belt, then saying that if Ward wanted it, he’d have to come down to, say, 161lbs to fight for it.

Both Cotto and Alvarez are ducking GGG at 160lbs. It’s evident neither want to fight him at that weight. That’s fine. Just don’t claim to be THE middleweight champion then.

That's exactly my issue. If you have a belt you have a duty to not dilute your sport and fight other champs.

Catch weights are a disgrace and was glad Cotto got stripped (regardless of the reason). If you fight for a title it should never be allowed for someone to be forced to not have the opportunity to fight at the weight.

Alvarez is ducking GGG after all of two days as champion?

The wins he has on his resume mean he most certainly is an elite level fighter, not everyone has the same gifts as Ward, Pacquiao, Mayweather or Rigondeaux and ultimately it's your ability to win that matters.

The names on your resume and your performance against them say a lot about the type of opponent you look good against, or not. I think he's more likely to avoid lara at middleweight than GGG. 

I think he'll fight GGG. I also believe Goldenboy, when they say he needs a few fights to grow into the weight. People are looking at this comment all wrong. They are looking at it as thougg Canelo needs to GROW into the weight, and saying things like he's huge, he already a MW etc.

When golden boy say he need to grow into the weight, they are only referring to the fact that he needs to gain experience against bigger opponents, who will be more difficult to bully.

Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

Directly after the fight: "I have respect for Golovkin, but if we do fight, it's going to be at my weight class. I'm the champion, I don't have to do what he wants."

What would you call that then?

"It's going to be at my weight class. I'm the champion..."

He's referring to the 160lbs belt he's just won, yes? And he's referring to 154 as his weight class, yes?

So, he's saying, if GGG wants to fight, it's going to be at 154lbs because he's now the champion at 160lbs and doesn't have to do what GGG wants.

He's ducking him at 160lbs. Which, as I said, if fair enough... but don't call yourself a MIDDLEWEIGHT THEN!

GGG and his team said he's willing to fight anyone between 154-168lbs so Canelo is calling his bluff, he's made a lot of noise but not followed throught with any of it; Ward at 164lbs wasn't it?

Robbo looked crap against a Turpin like fighter..

Can't be elite

AdamT wrote:You guys might laugh, but I would like to see Canelo vs Maidana if he gets his butt in gear.

Which one?

Hopkins offered him $2M upfront for a fight at 168. Lara offered him a fight at 160. He won't fight Ward, and won't drop 4 pounds for Canelo.

Don't bother trying to reason with GGG fan boys. .

Alvarez hasn't ducked anyone in his career - lets give young ginger nuts the benefit of the doubt here.

Alvarez will fight Golovkin but I'd expect him to have a couple of easy ones first.

Fought no one in 5 1/2 years and it's everybody else's fault..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Fought no one in 5 1/2 years and it's everybody else's fault..

I think you're backing a losing horse with that argument. Since nixing his contract with Universum, he's been built brilliantly in the States and has faced the best opponents open to facing him. A whole host of fighters have turned down the opportunity to fight him including Chavez, Sturm, Martinez, Froch and Cotto.

Hopefully he'll get the Alvarez fight in 2016 and we'll see where we are with him.

Arent Hopkins and Lara better than Murray?

So, would Canelo be willing to fight other middleweights for his 160lbs belt at, God forbid, 160lbs? If not, he's holding the belt hostage and should be stripped. If so, but not GGG (as he, himself, said above a few minutes after the winning the belt; also reitterating what he said before the fight) then he's ducking GGG at middleweight. Like I said, that's fine, but don't presume to call yourself a THE middleweight champion then.

For the record, I should say I consider the notion that Ward was ducking GGG idiotic. However, if, like I said, GGG nicked a title at 168 and then insisted people fight for that 168lbs belt at 161lbs (or 162lbs or 163lbs or that they be mandated to contest for it at ANY weight other than 168lbs) I'd consider that just as corrupt.

We are in a new era pal...

Boxing has changed

Canelo should fight chumps for five years. ..and say everybody is ducking him...

That's the smart move

Canelo should fight his middleweight challengers, whoever they are, at 160lbs or be stripped of the belt.

I would feel the same way if GGG won a 154lbs belt by fighting at 159lbs (effectively what Canelo's done: 160lbs belt by fighting at 155) and then claimed to be the man at LMW.

I actually really liked Cotto as a fighter before his farcical MW 'reign'. I also still like Alvarez as a fighter - it's just if he's not a middleweight he shouldn't pretend to be one.

And your idea of catchweight meaning fights happen, what, like Cotto beating up an emaciated Geale? Occasionally they work, but mostly they're how pale, depressing imitations of fights happen.

It's a bit early to be having a pop at Canelo for not defending against Golovkin. He's just won the title, give the kid a chance. They'll likely fight at this time next year and everyone will be happy.

Until discussions are made about the fight, no one knows any if the details such as weight so let's all have a nice cuppa and wait until we know.

Golovkin fans are fast becoming the new Pactards.

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

I think in this instance you can make a claim for Froch as a great fighter, as was said earlier its about getting the win. Froch was behind against Taylor and Groves 1 and was probably even Groves 2 but won all three by stoppage, he also had to dig deep to beat Pascal. Alvarez may not look a million dollars in every fight but Floyd aside he's getting the wins. Holyfield is another ' great' at Hw, didn't always look great doing it or winning by landslides but generally got the job done, albeit 2nd time around in some cases. Elite level ala Floyd come around rarely in a lifetime. You win easy you are fighting rubbish, you eek out a win you're overrated, damned if you do damned if you don't.

sohotnot wrote:

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

I think in this instance you can make a claim for Froch as a great fighter, as was said earlier its about getting the win. Froch was behind against Taylor and Groves 1 and was probably even Groves 2 but won all three by stoppage, he also had to dig deep to beat Pascal. Alvarez may not look a million dollars in every fight but Floyd aside he's getting the wins. Holyfield is another ' great' at Hw, didn't always look great doing it or winning by landslides but generally got the job done, albeit 2nd time around in some cases. Elite level ala Floyd come around rarely in a lifetime. You win easy you are fighting rubbish, you eek out a win you're overrated, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters. Bottom line.

I like GGG as a fighter and don't buy in to the "he hasn't fought anyone" rubbish. I don't think he's an elite fighter but when Cotto and Quillin either sidestepped or ducked him depending on your point of view, he went after the IBF strap.

He's a breath of fresh air from the crap politics these days in that he wants all the belts before doing anything else and doesn't seem to care who he fights. Nothing wrong with that. Canelo will be allowed a soft defence by the WBC (I am certain of it!) and will face GGG in the late summer I reckon. I think the Canelo is a ducker chat is premature and they will fight next year.

Mr Bounce wrote:I like GGG as a fighter and don't buy in to the "he hasn't fought anyone" rubbish. I don't think he's an elite fighter but when Cotto and Quillin either sidestepped or ducked him depending on your point of view, he went after the IBF strap.

He's a breath of fresh air from the crap politics these days in that he wants all the belts before doing anything else and doesn't seem to care who he fights. Nothing wrong with that. Canelo will be allowed a soft defence by the WBC  (I am  certain of it!) and will face GGG in the late summer I reckon. I think the  Canelo is a ducker chat is premature and they will fight next year.

Come on, you can't post something so sensible and seemingly devoid of an agenda! This is 606!!

hazharrison wrote:

sohotnot wrote:

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

I think in this instance you can make a claim for Froch as a great fighter, as was said earlier its about getting the win. Froch was behind against Taylor and Groves 1 and was probably even Groves 2 but won all three by stoppage, he also had to dig deep to beat Pascal. Alvarez may not look a million dollars in every fight but Floyd aside he's getting the wins. Holyfield is another ' great' at Hw, didn't always look great doing it or winning by landslides but generally got the job done, albeit 2nd time around in some cases. Elite level ala Floyd come around rarely in a lifetime. You win easy you are fighting rubbish, you eek out a win you're overrated, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters. Bottom line.

But lets be honest, I think there have only been 2 great fighters in history, Ali And Robinson. Marciano fought in a bad era, Louis fought in a bad era, Haglers best wins are against smaller men, Floyd has cherry picked, retired, put in weight stipulations & ducked Manny, Williams, Margarito, prime Mosely, prime Cotto, Wlad is boring & fights in a bad era, Duran got rolled like a drunk, Hearns was chinny, Chavez was a face forward brawler that fought cans, Calzaghe was stay at home joe, Roy jones jr ducked collins & Dariuz M and is a drug cheat before being exposed as chinny, Manny got ko'd early on, ducked floyd and fought catchweights. the list is endless. As I said earlier damned if you do damned if you don't.

I wouldnt classify Alvarez as elite. Its hard to know how much of his prowess relies on outweighing opponents. Its happened before with the likes of Chavez and Broner where they look good against smaller guys who cant hurt them and then fold against fighters the same size as them. Alvarez looks a little too one paced and little too hittable for me. I think he loses to a Trout or a Lara that arent outweighed by him, probably a Cotto too. Hes only 25 though and has mixed it with very good competition but hasnt really scored a quality performance or decisive win in any of his big fights and I think hes too relient on his scale warfare and favourable judging. This is the problem with the mess of the weight classses now though. There are size mismatches occuring all over the place disguised within the same weight classes.

catchweight wrote:I wouldnt classify Alvarez as elite. Its hard to know how much of his prowess relies on outweighing opponents.  Its happened before with the likes of Chavez and Broner where they look good against smaller guys who cant hurt them and then fold against fighters the same size as them. Alvarez looks a little too one paced and little too hittable for me. I think he loses to a Trout or a Lara that arent outweighed by him, probably a Cotto too. Hes only 25 though and has mixed it with very good competition but hasnt really scored a quality performance or decisive win in any of his big fights and I think hes too relient on his scale warfare and favourable judging. This is the problem with the mess of the weight classses now though. There are size mismatches occuring all over the place disguised within the same weight classes.

I think you make some fair points there but I feel Lara does have himself to blame for that loss, he just didn't do enough in the 2nd half of the fight. Personally I think Cotto did outbox him but his punches didn't appear to have that much effect, where as in the 2nd half of the fight Canelo's certainly did. Canelo is hittable, he does seem a bit one paced and with a low work rate. Had he upped it in the 2nd half maybe he could have forced a stoppage. Definitely favorable has helped him, a draw with Mayweather? Really? The thing is as bad as its ounds I think a Canelo win was better for boxing than a Cotto win. Where would Cotto have gone from this? As you say he's only 25, he keeps winning and maybe we are going to see some quality performances and decisive wins in the future from him, but even if he does fight GGG in his next fight and were to lose, he'll come back and still be in decent fights.

I want to like Alvarez, but I find it hard to warm to the whole weight stipulation, judges in pockets antics that surround him and I think a bit like Chavez before him a lot of his success is vested in dictating and maniplulating weights and having judges ready to bail him out if neccessary.

sohotnot wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

sohotnot wrote:

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with what HH has said there, it's all about getting a win. Froch isn't the purists wet dream that Ward is, however, you can expect Froch to get a win against opposition better than him. He finds a way. Alvarez has found a way against almost everyone he fought.

Also, it won't take five minutes for Canelo to be called a ducker. Same happened to Cotto the minute he beat Martinez.

I think in this instance you can make a claim for Froch as a great fighter, as was said earlier its about getting the win. Froch was behind against Taylor and Groves 1 and was probably even Groves 2 but won all three by stoppage, he also had to dig deep to beat Pascal. Alvarez may not look a million dollars in every fight but Floyd aside he's getting the wins. Holyfield is another ' great' at Hw, didn't always look great doing it or winning by landslides but generally got the job done, albeit 2nd time around in some cases. Elite level ala Floyd come around rarely in a lifetime. You win easy you are fighting rubbish, you eek out a win you're overrated, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters. Bottom line.

But lets be honest, I think there have only been 2 great fighters in history, Ali And Robinson. Marciano fought in a bad era, Louis fought in a bad era, Haglers best wins are against smaller men, Floyd has cherry picked, retired, put in weight stipulations & ducked Manny, Williams, Margarito, prime Mosely, prime Cotto, Wlad is boring & fights in a bad era, Duran got rolled like a drunk, Hearns was chinny, Chavez was a face forward brawler that fought cans, Calzaghe was stay at home joe, Roy jones jr ducked collins & Dariuz M and is a drug cheat before being exposed as chinny, Manny got ko'd early on, ducked floyd and fought catchweights. the list is endless. As I said earlier damned if you do damned if you don't.

A few great fighters from recent years: Mayweather, Pacquiao, Hopkins, Marquez, Jones, Holyfield, Lewis, Chavez, Whitaker, Barrera, Morales, Lopez.

Froch and Alvarez are not great fighters.